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Author Topic: The invincible high speed phalanx  (Read 6195 times)

Offline jon_1066

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Re: The invincible high speed phalanx
« Reply #15 on: November 05, 2018, 10:03:23 AM »
It would also depend on the rules type.  eg an activation sort where an action is resolved each unit in turn would allow a succession of columns to attack a line but they would each do so individually.  A more traditional rule set that has phases where everything moves, then everything fights would lead to the problem you mention.

Offline vtsaogames

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Re: The invincible high speed phalanx
« Reply #16 on: November 05, 2018, 10:05:25 PM »
It would also depend on the rules type.  eg an activation sort where an action is resolved each unit in turn would allow a succession of columns to attack a line but they would each do so individually.  A more traditional rule set that has phases where everything moves, then everything fights would lead to the problem you mention.

If a brigade activates at a time, rather than individual battalions you could have the same problem.
And the glorious general led the advance
With a glorious swish of his sword and his lance
And a glorious clank of his tin-plated pants. - Dr. Seuss


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Offline AdamPHayes

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Re: The invincible high speed phalanx
« Reply #17 on: November 08, 2018, 08:33:45 PM »
Beneath the Lily Banners (different period) has a simple mechanism for brigades where they are very important for the morale of the constituent regiments but cannot easily assist each other in close combat. This feels more like the reality of the situation as well for the massed Napoleonic columns...

Offline miltiades

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Re: The invincible high speed phalanx
« Reply #18 on: November 13, 2018, 10:43:32 AM »
Excuse me but I probably miss something here. If you chose to put 2 or even 3 battalions in column, just to destroy a single enemy battalion in line, then ... do it! Why not? You will engage 3 valuable battalions [or units, whatever] against only ONE enemy unit and then you will be exposed to any enemy cavalry attacks and you risk losing 3 units at once! I can't see anything wrong here with any set of rules. As a matter of fact,  my favourite set of rules is Volley & Bayonet. The smallest unit in this set is the brigade. So, I have no problems with huge battalions etc. But I think that sometimes gaming problems are in our minds and not on the table.

Offline vtsaogames

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Re: The invincible high speed phalanx
« Reply #19 on: November 13, 2018, 12:38:26 PM »
Excuse me but I probably miss something here. If you chose to put 2 or even 3 battalions in column, just to destroy a single enemy battalion in line, then ... do it! Why not? You will engage 3 valuable battalions [or units, whatever] against only ONE enemy unit and then you will be exposed to any enemy cavalry attacks and you risk losing 3 units at once! I can't see anything wrong here with any set of rules. As a matter of fact,  my favourite set of rules is Volley & Bayonet. The smallest unit in this set is the brigade. So, I have no problems with huge battalions etc. But I think that sometimes gaming problems are in our minds and not on the table.

I argue against un-historical results. I have not read of such a move working in actual battles of the period unless against troops who were seriously weakened before the attack or troops whose morale was dubious to begin with. Also, 2 or 3 battalion columns jammed together should not move faster than a line.

As an example, Soult's mass formation at Albuera (see Firepower) attacked Zayas' Spanish division. Outnumbered 2 - 1, the Spanish held for 2 hours until their ammunition was gone and they were relieved by British infantry. Zayas was probably the best Spanish division commander. Sometimes in other battles in Spain massive columns sent shaky Spanish troops flying. But sometimes the defenders stood their ground  and held the attacks.

Battalion formations are below the level of representation in Volley and Bayonet. So it is immune to such gaming ploys.

Offline miltiades

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Re: The invincible high speed phalanx
« Reply #20 on: November 14, 2018, 10:48:16 AM »
Battalion formations are below the level of representation in Volley and Bayonet. So it is immune to such gaming ploys.
yes, you are right. A monster-column should move slower than usual.  I remember when using a battalion scale ruleset, some players used to form phalanxes using 2 or 3 battalions...[however not always successful].  Soult's attack in Albuera [even against Zaya's Spanish infantry] probably failed due to heavy infantry fire. Also, the ground in Portugal is rough and uneven. And finally, I think that Soult's dice in Albuera was pretty bad that day. He had a cunning plan but no dice at all...  ;) ;)


« Last Edit: November 14, 2018, 10:51:59 AM by miltiades »

Offline vtsaogames

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Re: The invincible high speed phalanx
« Reply #21 on: November 14, 2018, 02:15:02 PM »
...I think that Soult's dice in Albuera was pretty bad that day. He had a cunning plan but no dice at all...  ;) ;)

Soult's dice were bad, though the Vistula Legion lancers rolled boxcars. Beresford had no plan at all, at least not one worth discussing. The reserve division that won the battle for him was sent in against his orders, after his chief of staff suggested it to the division CO. The final verdict is Wellington's. "This won't do. Write me down a victory." Beresford was never given a major independent command again. It was Hill or nothing after that.

Beresford could train a good army out of unpromising material and command several divisions competently under the watchful eye of the Duke. But he didn't have the temperament for solo command. He didn't get a chance to grow into it after Albuera. 

Offline Antonio J Carrasco

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Re: The invincible high speed phalanx
« Reply #22 on: November 15, 2018, 06:08:11 AM »
Perhaps the problem is time. In wargames everything happens very fast, but when you read after action reports the one thing that strikes you is how much time took to organize a the troops for an attack, or maneuver them to fill a gap in the line, while the actual combat was over after just a relatively short period of time -except skirmish combat and bombardment, which could go on for hours-. However, in the wargaming table maneuvers are fast, while combat is comparatively slow, with assaults and counterattacks going on for several game-turns (at least, in my experience, of course). On the other hand, skirmish combat is of marginal importance in most rulesets.

Offline vtsaogames

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Re: The invincible high speed phalanx
« Reply #23 on: November 16, 2018, 09:51:46 PM »
Perhaps the problem is time. In wargames everything happens very fast, but when you read after action reports the one thing that strikes you is how much time took to organize a the troops for an attack, or maneuver them to fill a gap in the line, while the actual combat was over after just a relatively short period of time -except skirmish combat and bombardment, which could go on for hours-. However, in the wargaming table maneuvers are fast, while combat is comparatively slow, with assaults and counterattacks going on for several game-turns (at least, in my experience, of course). On the other hand, skirmish combat is of marginal importance in most rulesets.

Interesting observation. Maybe the answer is to have multiple combat phases within a single turn. The board Game Rommel in the Desert had moves that went by with both sides resting up and accumulating supplies, punctuated by single turns that saw lots of action.

Offline miltiades

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Re: The invincible high speed phalanx
« Reply #24 on: November 21, 2018, 09:55:00 AM »
Maybe the answer is to have multiple combat phases within a single turn. The board Game Rommel in the Desert had moves that went by with both sides resting up and accumulating supplies, punctuated by single turns that saw lots of action.
Can you imagine how complex and complicated the game will become?  A board game is a different thing. You don't have to manage miniatures, terrain, table, and players at the same time.  8)
« Last Edit: November 21, 2018, 10:02:18 AM by miltiades »