Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => Age of Myths, Gods and Empires => Topic started by: Argonor on December 01, 2017, 05:43:27 AM
-
I think I've seen some very nicely painted 'very early' Romans on here some time ago - but are there 'complete' ranges of minis for the time before the Roman Republic and the city state of Rome's early struggles against its neighbours?
And if so, are there any rulesets specifically well suited for the period (I guess, rules meant to represent the Greek/Persian and Peloponesian wars would do)?
I am toying with the idea of painting some small warbands for some skirmish-gaming (I need something to get me back into painting, as I have not been able to motivate myself since finishing a Viking warband for SAGA early spring this year, and painting single, colourful minis might be the route to go).
-
In 28mm there's no dedicated range for the Roman kingdom. However, since Rome was a cultural melting pot you can pick and choose from several sources, namely ranges covering Etruscan, Samnite, or other "hill tribe" armies. When I did my 6th century warband Aventine (https://aventineminiatures.co.uk/catalog/index.php/cPath/53) was my first choice. If you avoid chainmail and (pseudo-)Corinthian helmets, they should work just fine, the Volscians in particular. You may also take a look at Gorgon Studio's Etruscans (https://gorgon-studios.myshopify.com/collections/etruscans), sculpted by Steve Saleh. The website's lost most pictures, but do a quick image search, they'e very nice models.
Rules are a bit tricky as well. Warfare in early Rome seems to have been largely limited to cattle raids and counter-raids. To my knowledge, most games set specifically in Ancient Greece do not cater for such small-scale enagegments, so you might be better off using any skirmish ruleset that doesn't put an emphasis on ranged combat. I considered using Tribal by Mana Press; its take on "honour" as a decisive factor in battle may also suit early Roman warfare.
-
I had wondered about using Dux Bellorum rules. Small engagement, missile fire is limited and you can differentiate between hoplite/shieldwall types and warrior types with added javelins (hill tribes). From some things I have read recently though it seems like even Etruscans/Romans in hoplite kit would have still fought in the warrior tradition. This makes sense when a lot of warfare was small scale raiding for animals and/or honour. The usual suspects like Lion Rampant or Saga would probably adapt fine.
Another set of rules I have looked at are "Gangs of the Bronze age" which are set for Trojan War but focus on honour acquisition by your stable of heroes. The rules use playing cards instead of dice. It has an interesting mechanic around morale/combat whereby when you win combat, the difference in the number cards ultimately played is used by the winner to either move opponents back (morale loss) or move own forces forward (morale gain).
I agree this is an interesting period - and you can bring in all sorts of different "factions" like Celts and Ligurians.
-
Interesting inputs, here, thanks!
I'll have some more looks into Tribal, I think; I already considered getting it some time ago, and it seems usable for various themes/periods, so maybe...
-
What on earth is "chainmail"?
-
To echo other comments, skirmish is the way to go, i'd suggest Broken Legions possibly?
-
What on earth is "chainmail"?
An erroneous neologism probably coined by Sir Walter Scott, widely popularised in the 1980s and 1990s by GW and various RPG products, used here to refer to lorica hamata. Now stop trying to provoke a fight when everyone knows what is meant, even if the actual term is etymologically iffy, and let the good folks have their discussion.
-
An erroneous neologism probably coined by Sir Walter Scott, widely popularised in the 1980s and 1990s by GW and various RPG products, used here to refer to lorica hamata. Now stop trying to provoke a fight when everyone knows what is meant, even if the actual term is etymologically iffy, and let the good folks have their discussion.
Seconded.
-
To echo other comments, skirmish is the way to go, i'd suggest Broken Legions possibly?
I have BL, and although it seems to be aimed at Imperial Rome, it has tropes from all over antiquity, so it may have the necessary armour types for the earlier more 'hellenistic' style warriors (I haven't been reading it with scrutiny), so I'll have another look at that, too.
Thanks.
I am not going to get any hobby time in until after Christmas (my daughter had knee surgery a couple of weeks ago, and she is taking up much time when I'm off work), but I hope to get something started up during winter.
-
So, after a long hiatus, due to the aforementioned knee surgery and spending a lot of time on my daughter's rehab training, I am now slowly trying to re-ignite my hobby mojo.
So, what sources are available on the enemies of very early Rome, then (around 500 BC, give or take 50 years)?
I have Osprey MAA 283 which shows exactly 3 non-romans from the pre-republican period (one of which is not identified - he may be a dead Sabine, dressed and equipped almost identically to the Romans), apart from that I have not got a lot to look at.
-
I think the best advise for the romans are the references given by Doc Morris.
About enemies, i think every one was fighting against eachother so Samnites versus Etruscans or maybe some celts raiding border settlements.
-
I think the best advise for the romans are the references given by Doc Morris.
About enemies, i think every one was fighting against eachother so Samnites versus Etruscans or maybe some celts raiding border settlements.
Ah, sorry, I meant weapons/equipment, and such.
I found a wiki-entry about Etruscans, stating their equipment to be similar to that of the Greeks (round bronze shields, muscle cuirasses, even Corinthian-style (among other) helmets), so Greek minis from that era could be a starting point? I happen to have some Warlord plastics squandering about somewhere...
-
Ah, sorry, I meant weapons/equipment, and such.
I found a wiki-entry about Etruscans, stating their equipment to be similar to that of the Greeks (round bronze shields, muscle cuirasses, even Corinthian-style (among other) helmets), so Greek minis from that era could be a starting point? I happen to have some Warlord plastics squandering about somewhere...
For 6th century Italy you may look for "early" or "archaic period" hoplites. So a good number of bell cuirasses but very few Corinthian helmets. If the Warlord set is identical to the former one by Immortal, it might provide a fair few suitable models. However, the minis are rather small and slender and visibly different from most other offerings out there. Not ideal in a skirmish-sized setting.
Your best bet is still to use either Aventine or the dedicated range by Gorgon (links above). Both cover Italian 'fashions' as well which are otherwise hard to come by. ;)
-
You could have a look here too: http://www.mirliton.it/index.php?cName=historical-2528mm-ancient
Ciao
-
Also if you already have warlord plastics, check Aventine for separated heads that ight suit the period and use the plastic ones. That probably gives you a good mix of equipment/figures.
-
For 6th century Italy you may look for "early" or "archaic period" hoplites. So a good number of bell cuirasses but very few Corinthian helmets. If the Warlord set is identical to the former one by Immortal, it might provide a fair few suitable models. However, the minis are rather small and slender and visibly different from most other offerings out there. Not ideal in a skirmish-sized setting.
Your best bet is still to use either Aventine or the dedicated range by Gorgon (links above). Both cover Italian 'fashions' as well which are otherwise hard to come by. ;)
Hmm, I just dug them out (Ancient Greek Hoplites+ Spartans), and they DO look a bit... well, 'slender'... although they would seem to measure about 28 mm from sole to eye.
It is a real shame that Gorgon has almost no pics, I really don't like buying unseen stuff.
You could have a look here too: http://www.mirliton.it/index.php?cName=historical-2528mm-ancient
Ciao
Well, I don't really like those sculpts, but they give some ideas about equipment and style, so thanks for the link!
Also if you already have warlord plastics, check Aventine for separated heads that ight suit the period and use the plastic ones. That probably gives you a good mix of equipment/figures.
That might work - if the heads are not too 'heroic' (i.e. big) to look good. Atm I can only find 'successor heads', though.
-
When I was still a schoolboy, decades ago, I wanted to do a whole series of unusual armies:-
Royalist Romans (pre-Republic) to fight an Etruscan army (Hoplites with chariots) ;
Henry VIII catholic;
Napoleonic Americans (with Indian allies)
ACW period Canadians;
WW1 Imperial Russian air force and
WW2 Russians V Japanese.
Big surprise I haven't finished any of them, but 'to realise your dreams is to loose them'
-
If it helps, the Gorgon etruscans are compatible with foundry world of the greeks.
About the heads i just realized you probably have the Warlord/Immortal greeks am i correct?
If so indeed the heads from aventine are big for those figures. Sorry for the wrong tip
Victrix has armoured and unarmored samnites if that helps.
-
If it helps, the Gorgon etruscans are compatible with foundry world of the greeks.
About the heads i just realized you probably have the Warlord/Immortal greeks am i correct?
If so indeed the heads from aventine are big for those figures. Sorry for the wrong tip
Victrix has armoured and unarmored samnites if that helps.
Yes, and they are going to supply Samnite heads with their republican Roman cavalry.
I may end up going the route of the somewhat later (3rd Cty BC) Italic tribes, as they are so much easier to come by, but I don't know. At the moment, I am grappling at anything to find that particular 'thing' that just feels so right that I get instantly motivated for building/painting some stuff for it...
-
By the way, what do Victrix mean by 'Aventine Roman', here??
https://www.victrixlimited.com/collections/ancients/products/copy-of-victrix-aventine-infantry-cavalry-deal-1
-
I believe that the cavalry in the deal are from Aventine miniatures.
-
I believe that the cavalry in the deal are from Aventine miniatures.
Ah, that might be it... thanks.
I am so used to 'Roman' being defined by 'Polybian', 'Caesarean', 'Early Imperial', etc., so I assumed the word to mean something along those lines. lol
-
Well I think Aventine is one of the seven hills of Rome so it could have been. :)
-
Well I think Aventine is one of the seven hills of Rome so it could have been. :)
It is, AFAIR the place where the poor lived in early times.
-
I am doing a very similar project! Roman and etruscan armies around middle V cent. a.c. I finally settled on a solution which while not perfect is good enough for me. I am using plastic hoplites in full gear for aristocrats.
For the poorer guys, I have a mix of unarmoured guys, plus romans and a few samnites with the bronze square pectoral only. Shields are a mix of hoplites, roman scutums (I am using those which came with the victrix romans, but cutting away the reinfirced edges) and italic square shields. More scutums for the italian, more squares for the etruscans. Of course, no pilums but only spears and swords.
For heads, I am using either no helmet, the 3 apulo-corinthian helmets (withlut plumes) that come with the romans, and some of the heads included in the olastic hoplites, which are actually pilos helmets but weith a little sanding and a little fantasy can pass as some kind of negau.. I hope to be able to post some photos soon!
My plan is to also buy some Aventine hilly warriors to use as volscians/sabines/aequi and play with dux britanniarum. Very nice game for large skirmishes, 5-6 units each of 6 warriors plus leaders and skirmishers.
-
Sounds like a plan. I hope you are posting pics along the way!
As is so often the case, my butterfly mind has had me focus my attention on other matters for a while (some of which is to clear my prepping station a bit, so I can continue work on my hoplites for Broken Legions), so I have not made progress regarding this - but it is still something I plan to pursue.
-
The upcoming Victrix Republican Roman Cavalry set will include Negau helmeted heads which will be handy for conversion work.
-
Great news!! I will have to buy even if I don t need any cavalry...
-
The upcoming Victrix Republican Roman Cavalry set will include Negau helmeted heads which will be handy for conversion work.
Yes, I saw and noted those :)
-
Of course, no pilums but only spears and swords.
Why not? The Etruscans had pila in the fifth century...
As a youngster I decided that an army with large quantities of very unenthusiastic hoplites with pila was a battle winning combination. I can tell you now that it isn’t! I did thoroughly enjoy combining the Greek, Italian and Roman components of the Amazon / QT Miniatures line to make up my Etruscans though.
-
Did they? I tought the pilum was more of a IV century thing. Could you provide some reading suggestions? I only have a couple of ospreys (pretty good as osprey go), early roman warfare by jeremy armostrong, plus some other stuff like the Piganiol which is good for history but not much for equipment and tactics..
-
Armies of the Macedonian and Punic Wars by Duncan Head and Gli Eserciti Etruschi by Ivo Fossati were my starting point for Etruscan information. I don’t think the latter is in print at the moment but it does turn up second hand fairly regularly.