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Hi all,
For many years I've been playing around with a game idea based on the Invasion Cycle of Ireland. After reading Barry Cunliffe's theory on the new origin of the Celts I relocated my idea to the Bronze Age.
Now, there are very few minis for the Bronze Age with none for the early days of this period, all the ones I've seen are more mid to late BA. My plan is to have a bash at sculpting my own but in the mean time I'm going to use some of Gripping Beasts Dark Age Warriors which cover most of the weapon options I need, even if the swords are too long.
Anyway, as for the game itself I've written a 56 page rulebook that introduces the Tin Isles (as Britain was once known), full rules for playing the game, 4 Clan Cultures to choose from and a Warband List (each clan uses the same basic list). There are also a number of scenarios and the first Tale (a mini campaign). It's pretty raw with no pics except a map of the isles.
(https://i.imgur.com/udAjFgR.jpg)
So, the basic plan now is to build a couple of warbands to playtest with, play a few games and make sure everything works. I also need to do a few sketches to firm up my ideas for the look of the minis before I attempt to sculpt anything.
Here's the intro just to wet your appetites...
Welcome traveller, through the mists you have come, to this time of warriors… a time of champions. Forget armies whose numbers stretch across the horizon and the glittering of steel, for this is a far simpler time.
In this world mighty champions perform skilled feats and lead their followers in an endless cycle of raids, ever eager to further their prestige.
Welcome to the dawn of war, where a warrior lives and dies by their skill alone. In this world there is no safety in numbers and a warrior may only turn to leathered skins for their protection.
Humanity has yet to ride the horse to war and in the corners of the world there are foul creatures baying for blood. This is an age of tribes and clans, an ancient age of heroes and legends…an Age of Bronze.
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Looks good!
What about Foundry's North European Bronze Age figures?
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Sounds like an interesting project. The early Bronze Age has long been an interest of mine, more study than gaming though. I'll second the suggestion for the Foundry range. It is a bit limited, but a few head swaps can increase variety.
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I'm interested, Egg. Which of Cunliffe's books have you been reading? The Ancient Celts, or something more recent?
I've been on a European Neolithic reading kick recently, plowing my way a second time through Gimbutas' Civilization of the Goddess, comprehending her better on this pass, and cross-referencing her with whatever else I can find that contradicts her doctrinaire pacifism (metal weapons and fortified settlements found in the Aegean, Oetzi the Iceman was killed in a skirmish, etc.). Like Nick, I probably won't model or wargame neolithic Old Europe. I model and wargame neolithic warfare for North America, so Old Europe is more than I can handle.
I agree that the Foundry European Bronze Age range should work well for Halstatt Celts, even as far west as the British Isles. The only thing I think that range lacks is poor levy troops, the guys at the Tollense battle who were swinging wooden warclubs and shooting flint-tipped arrows. There's a pack of skirmishers in the Foundry range, but they're pretty well equipped, like trained warriors, not some clod-hoppers drafted to back up their noble lord by shouting and throwing rocks. If you were to produce some figures like that with various hair and beard styles, they'd have application from the neolithic on up through the Dark Ages.
There's something funny about the shape of those islands.
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Lucid Eye Cro Magnons would probably work. They are in skins, very primitive weapons, and no cavemanish features. Give them a look!
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Interesting idea. :)
Do take a look at the Black Tree Designs ancient germans.
I´m using them to Bronze Age northern Europe.
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I'll second Rui's suggestion, I just took a look at them. Just lose the shields and they are perfect. Also, the old Vendel Germans had a similar "prehistoric" look to them.
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Foundry's Ancient Germans are by Mark Copplestone and are pretty darn nice as well.
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Indeed Sir Barnaby and they mix well with Black Tree so plenty of options.
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Thanks all for your interest and suggestions. 8)
I've got a few of Foundry's European BA minis but they are really more late BA. The swords in particular are the leaf shape type rather than the rapiers of the early BA. The other suggestions so far don't quite match what I have in mind. I went with the Dark Age plastics as the kit has a lot of versatility even though its not historically accurate. My intention for now is to use them for playtesting then sculpt my own minis down the line.
@zippyfusenet - I've read a few of his books but Britain Begins stands out for me. I've also got a copy of On the Ocean but I haven't read that one yet. Anthony Harding has done some very good books on the BA, particularly Weapons & Warriors in Bronze Age Europe.
I'm not going for Halstatt Celts but much earlier, around 2000-1500BCE. Barry Cunliffe's theory suggests that the Celtic language emerged along the atlantic facade as a lingua-franca, a trade language during the BA. There are some very interesting lectures by him on Youtube if your interested.
I think the transition from the Neolithic to the Bronze Age is fascinating; we went from communal living to complex societies with countless specialised roles, from tribal skirmishes up to full-scale battles. The early BA especially saw dramatic changes and a way of life evolved that would last almost to the modern age. Interestingly many of our fairy tales are believed to date back to this time, for example Jack and the Beanstalk originates from an archetypal myth of the Boy Who Stole the Ogres Treasure.
:D The maps do look a bit odd but they are based on the first known map of Britain.
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Posting to watch, as it's been a bit of an interest of mine. (Really want to find an RPG group who'd like to play a Bronze / Iron age game but that's unlikely to happen. >:( )
I've been on a European Neolithic reading kick recently, plowing my way a second time through Gimbutas' Civilization of the Goddess, comprehending her better on this pass, and cross-referencing her with whatever else I can find that contradicts her doctrinaire pacifism (metal weapons and fortified settlements found in the Aegean, Oetzi the Iceman was killed in a skirmish, etc.).
It's probably one of the most horseshit theories in the historical domain but because it's socially (and culturally) expedient, it's upheld due to "some evidence" (ignoring the piles of evidence that contradict it). Most of the people I know who believe it also believe that animal / human sacrifice on the part of "pagan" religions was a Roman invention to discredit those religions (despite the Romans practising animal sacrifice just as much!).
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Lost Egg,
You've really spkred my interest, I'll be following your project closely.
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Also, have you looked at Cutting Edge minis? http://cuttingedgeminiatures.com/
Aimed more at the Middle East, but they do have Early Bronze Age figures, and modifying them may be easie than sculpting from scratch.
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It's probably one of the most horseshit theories in the historical domain ...
Can we disagree without being disagreeable? I already waxed skeptical of Dr. Gimbutas' peaceable Old Europe, there's no need to disabuse me. I will say that Civilization of the Goddess is the most comprehensive, thorough and current survey of the European neolithic, prior to the Indo-European migrations, that I've read. Although I'm an amateur non-academic, I was able to recognize and work around Dr. Gimbutas' several hobby horses. The first time I read COTG I wasn't able to retain much from the torrent of unfamiliar names and places that washed over me, but now that I come back to it after several years, I get the picture, and it gives me a context for reading about the Iceman, the Neolithic/Bronze Age transition in the Aegean, the appearance of Bell Beaker traits in western Europe and other specialized topics.
...based on the first known map of Britain.
Ooooh. Looks kinda Hyborian. Nice.
Egg, I recently read Dr. Cunliffe's Europe Between The Oceans. It's a great read, full of creative thinking. Of course Dr. Cunliffe has his own hobby horses, as do we all. Well, I do. I'll look for his lectures on Youtube, thanks for that tip.
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Ok, watching this thread with interest. I am liking the premise so far.
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It's probably one of the most horseshit theories in the historical domain ...
Can we disagree without being disagreeable? I already waxed skeptical of Dr. Gimbutas' peaceable Old Europe, there's no need to disabuse me. I will say that Civilization of the Goddess is the most comprehensive, thorough and current survey of the European neolithic, prior to the Indo-European migrations, that I've read. Although I'm an amateur non-academic, I was able to recognize and work around Dr. Gimbutas' several hobby horses. The first time I read COTG I wasn't able to retain much from the torrent of unfamiliar names and places that washed over me, but now that I come back to it after several years, I get the picture, and it gives me a context for reading about the Iceman, the Neolithic/Bronze Age transition in the Aegean, the appearance of Bell Beaker traits in western Europe and other specialized topics.
I honestly thought we were in agreement. lol
"It deserved praise for two great achievements: it established that the Neolithic cultures of the Balkans had left a huge trove of figurines, statues and painted ceramics, and it provided a feast of new images for historians of art and indeed for artists themselves. Yet Professor Gimbutas' interpretation of those images caused much scholarly concern. She accepted Peter Ucko's work to the extent of speaking of different goddesses and gods instead of one. But she completely ignored his other criteria by regarding a very large range of human representations, especially among the statuettes, as divine, and proceeding to classify them confidently with no justification other than her own taste. She explained the significance of geometrical symbols in the same fashion, and in subsequent works went on to complete her portrait of a goddess-worshiping, woman-centered, peaceful and creative Neolithic Balkan civilization, destroyed by savage patriarchal invaders. There is good archaeological evidence to cast doubt upon this, but Professor Gimbutas has refused to recognize it."
—Ronald Hutton, The Pagan Religions of the Ancient British Isles (Oxford, 1991) - pp. 37-42.
Here's some more info in case you're interested: https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2001/01/the-scholars-and-the-goddess/305910/
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Does Newline designs have anything suitable? Not the best website I'll grant you, but maybe worth a look?
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I honestly thought we were in agreement.
Shmaybe we mostly are. Ronald Hutton's critique that you quote seems fair. Again, I stress that I value Civilization of the Goddess as a general survey of European neolithic cultures, as they were understood c.1991, when COTG was published. I haven't read Dr. Gimbutas' other writings, though her developed ideas permeate COTG.
A critical reader can sift through Dr. Gimbutas' prejudices. As for Wicca, I don't see any need to talk about other peoples' religions on LAF.
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Equine matters aside, this sounds like a very interesting project 8)
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I honestly thought we were in agreement.
Shmaybe we mostly are. Ronald Hutton's critique that you quote seems fair. Again, I stress that I value Civilization of the Goddess as a general survey of European neolithic cultures, as they were understood c.1991, when COTG was published. I haven't read Dr. Gimbutas' other writings, though her developed ideas permeate COTG.
A critical reader can sift through Dr. Gimbutas' prejudices.
I don't think anyone should have to sift through someone's prejudices for a (supposedly) academic work. The facts should be presented as they are. That's my main problem with it.
As for Wicca, I don't see any need to talk about other peoples' religions on LAF.
The article's Wicca thing is mostly just a structure for the criticism of the "matriarchal" religion concept. If you go to "As Christianity spread, the classical deities ceased to be the objects of religious cults, but they continued their reign in Western literature and art." in the article, it's a good breakdown on where the idea came from and why it is mostly wrong.
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@NickNascati - Those are some nice minis, I was going to say I hadn't seen them before but then I spotted that Warlord sell them :D For me part of the fun of this project is sculpting my own.
@zippyfusenet - Here is that Cunliffe lecture...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G8FM9nMFbfI&t=2s
@Westwaller - Thanks for the suggestion mate, some of the Witch cult minis are almost there. I really need to break out the sketch pad and get my ideas nailed down.
Again, thanks for all the interest. I am going to start building up some playtest minis tonight and sketch up some early BA weapons. As I said before my aim is to build some minis for playtesting and at the same time sketch up my ideas for how the minis should look, I've got a fair few notes and mood boards but we will see how it goes. Sadly updates are unlikely to very regular.
I will go into the game and the world at some point but if anyone has any questions then fire away. 8)
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Nice ideas! I have worked on several bands of plastic minis for bronze age era but they are sleeping in the dust.
Waiting to see what you will build
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Thanks for the link Egg, that was an interesting video. There seems to be another, I'll have to continue with the series.
Now I understand Dr. Cunliffe's theory that Celtic languages originated in the British Isles, possibly very early, and spread west-to-east from the Atlantic coast to Central Europe. If, as he suggests, Celtic language began as early as 4000 BC, then since the Celtic languages are Indo-European, that raises the question of how IE speakers got so far west so early.
Dr. Cunliffe posits that the first neolithic farmers came from Anatolia speaking Proto-Indo-European and spread that language family through the Mediterranean basin and across Europe with agriculture, starting around 6000 BC. Although Dr. Cunliffe calls this theory 'generally accepted', I understand that current theory has the neolithic Old European farmers speaking non-Indo-European languages, now mostly lost and unknown, while PIE originated on the steppes north of the Black Sea among the Yamnaya/Kurgan herders, and migrated west into Europe later, starting after about 3000 BC.
I'm sure Dr. Cunliffe could demolish me in an argument, so I'll just note the point and leave it. Celtic language could still have developed in the west and moved east somewhat later. Who knows at what time the mythic Invasions of Ireland happened, if ever? I'm impressed by Dr. Cunliffe's idea of maritime travel knitting together early cultural zones such as the Atlantic coast, the Baltic and the Eastern and Western Mediterranean. This idea is the theme of Europe Between The Oceans, I recommend the book.
Have fun developing your game, keep us posted.
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How about Perry Miniatures Mahdist bodies with GB Dark Age Warriors heads?
I've seen people use the this combination to make Irish and Welsh for Saga games.
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Also, have you looked at Cutting Edge minis? http://cuttingedgeminiatures.com/
Aimed more at the Middle East, but they do have Early Bronze Age figures, and modifying them may be easie than sculpting from scratch.
My favorite Bronze Age minis of all time! Small, realistic proportions, but gorgeous! I'm more of a "Collapse of the Late Bronze Age Aegean" man myself, but there should be something for you to use in this line.
And never mind all the pedantic comments! Just have some fun! If you're doing a thesis, argue. If you're playing with toy soldiers, do what you like!
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Watching with interest and good to see some bronze age love
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Thanks guys :D
Just a quick update, things have been a bit slow this week as we are between kids birthdays (both in Feb) and so have been busy sorting bits out in the evening. But, I have managed to convert some youths for the first warband and I've sketched out the first couple of weapon types.
In terms of discussing my idea for the game I was thinking of putting some fluff up to help nail the setting down for you all. But in the mean time...
Age of Bronze The Basics
AoB (Age of Bronze) is set in the early bronze age where warfare is ritualised and endemic, based around raiding. The game is a skirmish with around a dozen minis per side and you play through Tales, mini-campaigns that can be played through in an evening with each Tale representing a single raiding parties adventures...so a bit like a heist movie I guess...
@zippyfusenet - No probs :D I think Dr Cunliffe is proposing that Celtic grew as a kind of trade language along the Atlantic facade rather than just in the British Isles. With any pre-historic period there is so much we can only postulate about what happened, his theories certainly make sense in some ways.
@LeadAsbestos - Thanks man, I must admit my ideas have changed quite a bit over the few years I've been working on this and the flavour of the game has switched from full-on fantasy to full-on historic until its finally settled somewhere in between. In some ways I've been reluctant to settle on a particular time when I was researching as I was confronted by all these cool elements from history.
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The youths are done...ish. I just need to GS the join between the arm and the shoulder then sand the base and finally paint them.
(https://i.imgur.com/v2aITZX.jpg)
For a first try I am fairly pleased with the warclubs, they are thicker than I'd like but considering I wasn't making them from scratch I'm still happy.
(https://i.imgur.com/aeUuxxf.jpg)
When I finally start sculpting my own minis I think I will start with some of these and use plasticard then shape and add GS as needed.
Now, some people may wonder why I've got warclubs...well in the early BA, bronze was a prestige item so most warriors, not to mention youths, wouldn't be able to afford a sword. Wood was widely available and makes a damn fine weapon even though there are very few examples found from the BA. Flint arrowheads were still widely in use so it seems logical to me that warriors would make good use of wooden warclubs. Inspiration-wise these beasties are based on an Irish hurley stick as I know the game of hurley is very old, and I have a sneaky suspicion that its dates to the BA as a form of ritualised warfare or a chance for warriors to prove how brave they are.
Next up I might have to build up some warriors...or maybe veterans...
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Newline's Witchcult riding the wicker horses are superb! Great concept and great figures. Possibly not "historical" enough for you, however? lol
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I don't know, the youth look okay, but something about the trousers and leg wrappings makes them look too modern.
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@Nick Nascati - Agreed but for now these guys are just for playtesting and to give me a bit of practice with the GS as I haven't sculpted any figures for ages (they were 54mm scale anyway).
I wanted to make up some playtesting minis quickly (for me at least) then come back and sculpt up my own.
One reason for this is I am torn between 28mm(ish) scale and 40mm scale so I'm hoping that some playtesting minis will help make my mind up.
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Ah, okay that makes sense. Any idea if those 40mm Graven Images figures are actually available?
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Not any more but I have spoken to Steve and he has some still but he can't find the arms for them. I managed to get a three from a LAF member. Steve did say there is over 100 minis in the range though most were never molded. There were even chariots. 8)
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Progress has been slow as I've been busy making a Link costume for my son for World Book Day and various DIY projects at home...but I have finally finished building the first playtest warband. Behold the Sea Clan...
(https://i.imgur.com/h2ReUmQ.jpg)
Here we have 3 Youths with warclubs and small shields, 3 warriors with slings, 3 warriors with spears & shields, 3 Veterans with light armour, spears & shields and a Curadh (champion) with light armour, a rapier & shield.
Again, I know these guys aren't bronze age warriors, just stand ins for a bit of playtesting. Apart from a bit of light GS work and sculpting the youths hurley inspired warclubs these guys were straight forward and fun to build.
Thinking about it I guess there's no reason I can't use my AoB rules for a Dark Age skirmish 8)
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Well it has taken me quite a while but I have finally finished painting up my first warband for playtesting AoB...the Sea Clan...
(https://i.imgur.com/HZubXIs.jpg)
I tried to keep the colours fairly natural and muted but I don't have much to go on for what was available in early-mid BA Britain so I've kinda guessed. I know these guys are all kinds of wrong for the BA, what with chainmail & iron weapons etc, but until I sculpt something up what I want just isn't quite out there.
Before I start on the Sun Clan I'm going to build up and paint some minis I picked up from Salute so progress will, as ever, be slow...
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I have a stack of the late Bronze Age Foundry figures and by chance had them out for a game last night, using Lion Rampant to see if they work, I will be watching this thread with interest. Happy sticking with my mid to late Bronze age but more figures and different rules are very appealing.
I have found that there are figures we can use if we are a bit creative. I also picked up some of the Warlord Bronze Age figures to use as slingers as they are very generic. I also picked the odd semi naked figure from Trojan ranges to bulk forces out given how limited the Foundry range is. Some of the nicer figures I have used are Perry Plastic sudanese, picking the figures that have kilts but not too thickly bunched around the waste, add a javelin and a little leather buckler and a European looking head and they look the business, especially if you mix them with the Foundry ones.
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Nick,
Here's a link to a site discussing the archeological finds at the site of the Battle of Tollense (circa 1200 BCE). They found several wooden clubs, some shaped like baseball bats and some like croquet mallets (the latter made of blackthorn wood, and resembling later Irish knobsticks aka battlesticks/shilleaghles/walking sticks).
Most fighting clubs around the world are not massive, unwieldy objects (you have to be able to swing them quickly) (the exception are the paddle-shaped clubs of the Solomon Islands, but they actually were adapted from canoe paddles):
http://oldeuropeanculture.blogspot.com/2015/07/tollense-battle.html
http://oldeuropeanculture.blogspot.com/2015/05/knobstick.html
https://www.busaccagallery.com/catalog.php?catid=211&itemid=1083
http://www.swordsantiqueweapons.com/s372_full.html
https://picclick.com/Native-American-Indian-Penobscot-Carved-Wood-War-Club-232779926955.html
http://www.oldeshillelagh.com/store
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Following with interest.
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Really don’t want to set you up, but what I personally don’t get is why use Dark Age warriors as stand ins for Bronze Age warriors? You did mention the Foundry stuff is too late for what you’re after, but why then use these? They don’t even look remotely like Bronze Age.
It‘s your stuff, but I’m somewhat baffled.
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I know I'm kinda baffled too...I didn't really explain myself very well :D I want to sculpt my own minis as nothing quite fits the bill and I fancy the challenge.
I went with the Dark Age guys as, being plastic, they are easy to convert and come in at a good price; I can make two warbands from one box. Just to add extra confusion I've painted them up as Dark Age warriors and have only converted up some warclubs. Really I thik I should have started with some sketches of my ideas for the minis, rather than focused on the proxies.
I'm now deep in my pre-summer DIY list so there is likely to be little progress for a few weeks...doh!