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Other Stuff => General Wargames and Hobby Discussion => Topic started by: Featherstone on March 12, 2018, 05:34:49 PM
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I was raised on tabletop miniature gaming, with about fifteen years off-and-on experience of my 20 years... which puts me in an interesting age predicament.
Most of the conventions I’ve attended (Historicon, Bayou Wars, Pensacon) show many more gamers in the 35+ Years demographic than below, and having recently stumbled upon Meeples & Miniatures / The Veteran Wargamer / WSS podcasts (I look foward to new episodes, if you’re reading this) I find that even these commenters occasionally note the “aging” of the community, or competition of the hobby with “younger” forms of entertainment, video gaming, etc.
Now, I have no trouble whatsoever with gaming with the war-wizened veterans of the hobby, but what I’m interested in is preserving the hobby in the next generation. Whether by some chivalric need to carry on the helm of my wargaming forefathers, or a simple desire to get more people to game with, I want to network with other twentysomething gamers across the globe, glean the advice of the veterans, and figure out how to spark a tabletop revolution one new gamer at a time. (Hurrah!)
I’ve tried to locate the WSS Great Wargaming Survey to get more info... can’t seem to... but to the point:
How many of us twentysomething gamers are out there in the world community? (Or on this forum?)
Secondly:
What’s the current outlook on gaming among the iGen from veteran gamers?
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I can't answer the first part of your question, as my eyes, back and knees can barely remember by 20's :)
I know what I like playing, but I have never felt that somehow gaming has lost its way because a younger generation or any one else is interested in a different type of game. I just like to see people getting together and gaming and I think the passion and the pleasure is as much for one as it is for the other. So gaming may aesthetically change, but in most regards it continues and I am pleased that there is such a strong resurgence, driven by the younger gamers, in playing physical games (as opposed to something on a screen). The future of gaming seems stronger now than it has for 35 years plus, when the sales of boardwargames first started to heavily decline.
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Alas, I am 30 so don't count :-P
But I have 10 friends between 23 and 32 that are gamers. Some, like me, have gamed all the way through. Some have returned to wargaming after a 10 year or so hiatus. Most play 40k, although this mainly seems to be nostalgia/tradition related, along with a couple who find it difficult to get non-GW gaming in locally. Most also play non-GW skirmish games such as SAGA (helped by many of them being dark age reenactors) and have considered other historical periods. A couple of us are odd in that we don't play something GW based. We normally meetup for a dedicated gaming weekend once a quater although some are also members of other clubs.
So for us it's a positive outlook - plus those of us who are parents stand a reasonable chance of introducing it to our children... Whether it takes is a different matter!
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I actually just think that there are many more gamers than there were twenty or thirty years ago. With life expectancy so high the over 35 group will naturally be the larger always too.
Don't let that put you off though, I think that younger gamers should be thinking forwards and contemplating where they want their hobby to go. The alternative is to be dictated to by the older majority, however well meant and benevolent our rule.
:)
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23 here.
I play a bit of everything and model a bit of everything else.
i guess i differ from your standard veteran in that i don't play BIG battles, But I lack the finances and space to do so.
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21 here.
The internet has been a positive boon for me since otherwise I simply wouldn't wargame due to knowing exactly 0 opponents. Now I have many. :)
I was brought in via the GW route, but I've always been interested in history so I transitioned to historicals relatively quickly (it helped that here in Aus historicals are 1/3 the price of GW, says something about GW).
Finances preclude me from traditional big battles of 15mm or similar, and to be honest I've always found big battles to be more about bashing blocks units together and dicing to see who wins than anything else. Give me a war of manoeuvre any day!
Smaller scales (eye sight not being a problem for me (yet!)) have come into their own for me. That said I am no more immune to being unable to finish a project than anyone else. My mountains of 3mm sit for the most part in varying stages of incompletion.
LAF probably isn't the place to get much of an idea of the demographics of Wargamers in general. The chances are most of your 20 somethings are on Facebook these days.
As for video games, I balance my enjoyment of both video games and wargames pretty well I believe. Video games are easy to get on with, but are always far more restricting compared to wargames. If I don't like an aspect of a particular video game I can't do a thing about it (without skills I don't have). Don't like something in a wargame? It's dead simple to houserule or even homebrew to your heart's content.
The tactile nature of wargames as well as the timelessness of them, relative to video games, which have generally reached their use by date a year or two after release makes them, means that I'd suggest that they belong, if not in a different market, then in a different headspace. I enjoy every wargame I play. Perhaps not for the game itself (see comments on big battles above) but for the social aspects of talking about the history and all that. In a video game, I might not enjoy myself much at all.
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I’m in my early 30s and grew up with a lot of video games, and in fact it’s my interest in these that really kickstarted me into tabletop gaming. I remember playing ‘Fog of War’ on the Amiga and enjoying the strategy of it all so would play similar games with my friend’s toy soldiers (his dads napoleonics) or his Lego Pirates (the redcoats and bluecoats). These were very simple narrative games without much in the way of dice play though we did use some.
Later I became a big fan of SSI’s ‘Chaos Gate’ and ‘Final Liberation’ games which got me, again via a friend, really interested in 40k.
Interest in CRPGs like Baldur’s Gate and Icewind Dale led me into Pen and Paper RPGs, which has fed into a semi regular smattering of fantasy minis.
The same goes for Fallout and post apocalyptic stuff. I also like Zombie gaming though that was probably more influenced by movies.
Even now, though I don’t get much time for gaming in any sense anymore, a good computer game will get me interested enough in an idea and period to start thinking about projects. Because I’m loving the new Asssasins Creed game, I’m currently tentatively thinking about a small ancient Egyptian project.
So, for me at least, gaming has helped. As for the more social media type influences such as Facebook; I’m not on it, so wouldn’t know! But I suspect t will never damage the appeal of holding models in your hand and the satisfaction of painting some up.
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I grew up in the 80's and despite what my children think we did have video games even then. I got into miniatures via D&D. I am sure you can find articles from the 80's lamenting the fact that kids these days are playing RPGs not wargames and that the hobby is full of oldies. So long as companies like Games Workshop and the like are going strong there will be no shortage of gamers. Even if you think AoS and 40K are not "proper" wargames there is still a big pool of players to convert to the light.
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Well I am one of the white-haired old timers (65 years young) and I wanted to say that over 45 years ago when I started gaming they where asking this same question :o The fact is there will always be an influx of younger people because of old guys like myself inviting them to join in the fun.
I do believe that interests change and you will probably find the interest in historical gaming is less prevalent among the 20 somethings but that's OK. I also agree that some prefer the skirmish style games but over the years I too have come to enjoy them more as well. I think the hobby is better than ever and there are more people playing a greater variety of games so invite your 20 something friends to join you in a game and our hobby will continue to flourish. 8)
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Not really sure if this is even a partial answer to your question. I myself am one of the ancients (65) but I've seen an influx of younger gamers in our club since about two years ago.
Out of the 7 'new' gamers we welcomed in our club in 2017, 1 was 16, another 17. Two were in their twenties. (22 and 28), one 31, and two over 40s. Perhaps more significant is that two of the 'younger' members from a few years ago are now also committee board-members and doing a really fine job!
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I wouldn't sweat it. The kids'll be alright.
Whatever form the games may take, painting miniatures is something which will always have a certain appeal to children of all ages.
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I think the best question is when do we start gaming the cyber warfare of today and how do we scratchbuild it?
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Cyber warfare always struck me as fodder more for boardgames than miniatures.
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I think the best question is when do we start gaming the cyber warfare of today and how do we scratchbuild it?
Wargames are based on logical rules + random events + decision taking*, proportioned in different ways under different rules. Cyber warfare (the real thing) is horribly similar.
The biggest problem is building a representation, I'd say - Cyber warfare always struck me as fodder more for boardgames than miniatures.
That's one way out.
An alternative would be to come up with abstract models representing functions; or less abstract ones, in other words, go all Tron (by the way, not many models of that, are there?).
*+beer, pretzels, crisps, pizza and a nice glass of wine; and sometimes coffee.**
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I think the best question is when do we start gaming the cyber warfare of today and how do we scratchbuild it?
That’s easy. Just send me your email address and I’ll forward you a couple of emails. It will be more of a rebuild than a scratchbuild mind. ;)
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Well, suffice it to say I am encouraged! Fascinating input from all here, love hearing your stories... would risk a tome to reply to each of you lol But a sincere thanks to both the great ancients and the young veterans. Hope to share a game with you all someday.
I should mention that I was able to spark the interest of a number of college friends in the WizKids Pirates! CSG System, which I hoped would be a gateway and was quite educating on how to teach tabletop to completely new players. (Two of them eventually bought in... seeds planted.) And many of my projects since then have been dominated by the idea of “café portability” and the opportunity to invite new general-populace players into the hobby.
I see the importance in your circles of interaction with the clubs, not as common in my area of the States... but we have analogs and I could do a better job of that. Bringing new gamers into an established comeraderie may be a bigger draw than just me on my ‘oansome.
The internet has been a positive boon for me since otherwise I simply wouldn't wargame due to knowing exactly 0 opponents. Now I have many. :)
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As for video games, I balance my enjoyment of both video games and wargames pretty well I believe.
An interesting perspective on the interaction between the two fields. I’ve seen other tabletop gamers place them in opposition, particularly regarding social contract (*ref), but they can, as you have it, work in tandem.
I wouldn't sweat it. The kids'll be alright.
Whatever form the games may take, painting miniatures is something which will always have a certain appeal to children of all ages.
Both counts, bravo. Well said :D
I think the best question is when do we start gaming the cyber warfare of today and how do we scratchbuild it?
Ooh, count me in! I’m seeing next decade’s AR/VR operatives physically interacting with abstracted digital data... bridging the gap between kinetic and digital warfare. PLENTY of neon fluorescence:
(http://grimuar.pl/sites/default/files/matrix-concept-art.jpg)
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Not quite your target demographic, as I'm 30, but close enough. I've been wargaming for almost 20 years now, and my wargaming interest was very much parallell to computer games. I became aware of Games Workshop games at more or less the same age I became aware of computer games, and was into both. The big competitor for war gaming in my teens was role playing, because it was just that much cheaper to get into.
Then I hit a gaming renaissance in my 20s leading to a pretty decent collection of fantasy miniatures for various skirmish games, and it feels like just getting started.
Anyway, I think like everyone else has said; we'll be fine, there is an aging population in general so it is not strange that wargamer average age increases either. There will be young people who like playing with toy soliders in the future too.
My favorite thing to do whenever someone starts a "kids these days" argument is to dig up the really old quotes on that note. People have been worried about "the kids" doing everything from reading to novels to rock'n'roll to smart phones since the begining of time.
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Someone posted a wargame article from the 70s.
In the article the author was lamenting the aging of the hobby.
It is still here. Often younger people can't afford to jump into a
hobby that can be quite expensive. Later in life, one usually has
more disposable income. I am not worried. I didn't start spending
on wargaming until my late 30s.
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This is interesting as I'm trying to get my own boys interested in Pulp Alley at the moment as a way to wean them off computer games before they become addicted.* At the moment I have one getting quite interested in painting the figures but the other will have to play a couple of games before his strategic mind sees the possibilities. I'm working on the basis that if I make a good game and they see what is possible,I may win them over.
Any suggestions welcome. One drawback I'm encountering is the space required to set up a game:it's much easier to turn on a smart phone.
*Although one occupational hazard working with people with addiction issues, is that after a while you think everyone is addicted to something...
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Experiences, my eyes, and various conversations, have me believing most gamers today "come to" historical wargaming thru the sci-fi and fantasy spheres. We (I'm almost 60) didn't have those gateways and it was purely our interest in history that got us to the table. Pulp gaming seems to provide an effective bridge for gamers moving between spheres. I am hopeful that as the public backlash against too much screen time gains strength, and there is encouragement of younger folks to actually interact with their peers and others, we'll see more youth turning to tangible pursuits like tabletop gaming.
My two cents worth.
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So, here's a bit of a left turn in this conversation. I started my interest with the American Heritage book on the ACW with all those isometric battle maps, very cool. And then there were movies, lots of movies, about various wars - Zulu or Last of the Mohicans or Braveheart. Historical costume dramas and adventures were powerful fuel to the enthusiasm. How can a generation raised on Super Hero movies develop into war gamers? I suspect few will come from that source. Recently saw Black Panther and, while I applaud its success, it didn't do much for me - like most super hero movies the story was a bit flat for my tastes. And the mid-story switch up on the bad guy didn't work so well.
So, especially for the younger folk, are movies still motivating you (new movies, not old movies)?
And as to GW, I can only repeat a well-worn phrase, "There's one born every minute." I can't believe people pay their obscene prices.
And I guess I'm only semi-ancient since I'm a spry and youthful 60! ;)
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So, especially for the younger folk, are movies still motivating you (new movies, not old movies)?
contemporary war movies are probably not motivating anyone to get into historical gaming as they tend to focus on the horror of war rather than the pluck of those fighting.
Zulu couldn't be made today in it's current form, And I don't think anyone came away from dunkirk thinking "well that was a horrific and grinding depiction of the terror and fear of war, It really made me want to play with toy soldiers." modern movies of the world wars and recent historical conflicts have made it much harder to come away from the cinema thinking of things in terms of the dastardly baddies and the plucky goodies, Because they focus less on the nations at war and more on the human misery present in conflict and the ambiguous motivations of those fighting.
I'll happily play a game of indiana jones because the bad guys in those films aren't Germans, They're nazis. They might be German underneath that but their characters are essentially "nazi number 1 = evil." they could be Swiss or British or Australian and they'd be the same character. contemporary cinema is no longer comfortable portraying either side of a conflict as a faceless evil, Or dehumanising people to the point of caricature.
Contemporary conflicts don't really strike me or many i know as tasteful fodder for game night.When one of your most vivid childhood memories is being called into the school hall to watch footage of 9/11 and then again to watch footage of the invasion of iraq, you don't tend to associate them with fun.
But TV shows, Those are what push the boat out. Spartacus, Game of thrones, Vikings, even the latest troy series on the BBC are drawing friends of mine into the hobby. I had a friend start an online pen and paper roleplaying group based around Game of thrones, who had no idea that that was what he had done. It was only when me and another friend explained what D&D was to him that he realised he was already doing that exact thing.
If you look at the historical periods that are doing well right now , It's the dark ages and the medivals, then the ancients, Things that have features in big budgets tv shows in the last few years . WW2 will always be a staple, But I don't know many people my age that really want to sit and paint nazis* all evening. For my part I simply wasn't raised on stories of spitfires and shermans, War was always on the news as something horrific and brutal, never a rose tinted vision of the past , and so fantasy appealed more.
(* I know one but I wouldn't play with him....)
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I'm 26 and usually end up being the youngest historical gamer in the room. Came to back to wargaming as my day job is games development and I wanted a hobby that didn't require staring at a screen. I play a fair amount of stuff but my real focus for collecting and writing about is Ultramodern wargaming.
I have several friends from university around my age and they play a mix of stuff - lots of 40k but also some historical.
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Interesting turn in the discussion. My father and my uncles were WW II vets and so my earliest wargaming interests were centered on that (Of course we are talking SPI and Avalon Hill board games at first) I recall one of the earliest wargames I ever played was a pencil and paper version of battleship with my dad. But I also read a lot and loved history so my first toy soldier armies were Civil War and Micro Armour. I was also a huge fan of fantasy and Sci-fi so I began to collect Medieval/Fantasy figures and played Chain Mail rules. Movies were only a small aspect of why I got into the various types of gaming for me it was more the many books that I read and I think that is still true today.
I can see how the movies of the past might better inspire one to wargame because they tended to focus on the heroic and valiant. There was a clear idea of good vs evil and patriotism and pride. I know it was often less realistic at times and glorified conflict but I prefer that to the purposeless and horrible antihero stuff of many modern movies. I think that is why Star Wars is so effective in stimulating the game market it harkens back to the grand heroic idea of fighting to save the overcome evil and save the day.
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I can see how the movies of the past might better inspire one to wargame because they tended to focus on the heroic and valiant. There was a clear idea of good vs evil and patriotism and pride. I know it was often less realistic at times and glorified conflict but I prefer that to the purposeless and horrible antihero stuff of many modern movies. I think that is why Star Wars is so effective in stimulating the game market it harkens back to the grand heroic idea of fighting to save the overcome evil and save the day.
Absolutley.
Fantasy has the luxury of being as ambiguous as you make it. the empire? every stormtrooper is evil, or a clone. the rebels? all valiant freedom fighters. Unless you don't want them to be, then they aren't. but you can choose your motivations because they are ,as /tg/ puts it "your dudes."
Having said all that, I think TANKS! is a wonderful game and I will happily play it any time and where with anyone, But that's because i think it's great fun, not because of its setting.
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I think it's a combination of most younger wargamers being Games Workshop focused and confirmation bias.
I'm in my mid-20s and most wargamers that I know of don't use forums as much.
In fact, if you want to "connect with the kids" (and preferably influence them towards historical wargaming / non-GW stuff), I run a wargaming Discord which I've linked in this thread: http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=105101.msg1307664#msg1307664
We've got 95 members and most (probably near all) are below 30.
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I think it's a combination of most younger wargamers being Games Workshop focused and confirmation bias.
I'm in my mid-20s and most wargamers that I know of don't use forums as much.
In fact, if you want to "connect with the kids" (and preferably influence them towards historical wargaming / non-GW stuff), I run a wargaming Discord which I've linked in this thread: http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=105101.msg1307664#msg1307664
We've got 95 members and most (probably near all) are below 30.
Or post on reddit, If you can tolerate..well, reddit.
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Or post on reddit, If you can tolerate..well, reddit.
Reddit's non-GW wargaming communities are very dead.
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Just chiming in agreement with Nic-e further up the thread - TV shows are great inspiration.
I'm guessing the zombie/post-apoc genres of wargaming also get plenty of impetus from recent films and TV shows. And the Star Wars genre, of course! Weirdly, the GW stuff has no dedicated film/TV worth watching, but I guess it takes from so many other bits and pieces that GW gamers can find inspiration in a lot of popular culture.
For myself, movies and TV are inspirations even within different genre games. After watching The Pacific and the Eastwood Flags/Iwo films I dreamt up a whole bunch of 2nd ed. Space Marine scenarios involving warrens of bunkers and beach landings o_o
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Reddit's non-GW wargaming communities are very dead.
the general modelling/tabletop subreddits are doing pretty well. And some of the more obscure/dead games seem to thrive on reddit .Pirates of the spanish main for example.