Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => Age of the Big Battalions => Topic started by: vodkafan on March 13, 2018, 01:46:43 AM
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Forgive me starting another Napoleonic thread, but in hindsight I didn't phrase my first one correctly...
here is what I want to do: I want to field big battalions in 28mm scale at 1:20 , so that means 36 or even 48 figure battalions; BUT I don't have the space or the time to play divisional level games. I want just a brigade's worth of figures a side, say 4 battalions plus a cavalry regiment and a battery of artillery. That in itself could be 200 figures, which is in itself a major commitment for me ( and my pal who has agreed to do the madness with me!)
The trouble is, there doesn't seem to be anything out there at all pitched at this Brigade level , with the company as the smallest unit . I have been looking at upscaling ""big skirmish" rules like Sharp Practice or downscaling divisional rules like General de Brigade but am in a bit of a limbo to be honest... I do realise that what I am looking for is a "quart in a pint pot" type of thing, and it's something I keep coming up against in almost every period I want to game...but surely I can't be the only one to think about it?
Has anybody else tackled this? Any suggestions as to rulesets?
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What Dejau Vu! It sounds like "Column, Line Square" all over again.
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What Dejau Vu! It sounds like "Column, Line Square" all over again.
Is that a ruleset?
[edit] OK found it. One link out of six on deep fried happy mice worked and I now have CLS version 2 on pdf
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4 - 6 units per side would fit into the One Hour Wargames book from Neil Thomas. The rules are fairly generic, but easily tinkered with. They are very light at just a couple of pages long. It depends on what you want as to whether that is a good or bad thing.
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4 - 6 units per side would fit into the One Hour Wargames book from Neil Thomas. The rules are fairly generic, but easily tinkered with. They are very light at just a couple of pages long. It depends on what you want as to whether that is a good or bad thing.
Hi Normsmith , when you say 4-6 "units" what do you mean exactly? OK I will google One Hour Wargames
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If a basic unit is a battalion then you have 4 infantry units (battalions), 1 cavalry unit and 1 artillery unit.
I also came up against the same issue but in 6 mm. There doesn't really appear to be a ruleset aimed at this scale of game, ie roughly 1:600 ground scale, 1 brigade in size.
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Pm sent :)
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If a basic unit is a battalion then you have 4 infantry units (battalions), 1 cavalry unit and 1 artillery unit.
I also came up against the same issue but in 6 mm. There doesn't really appear to be a ruleset aimed at this scale of game, ie roughly 1:600 ground scale, 1 brigade in size.
OK yes, that is what I meant. But my smallest unit will be the company
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There's a set at this scale in Paddy Griffith's book 'Napoleonic Wargaming for fun'
He has a series of sets at different scales.
Otherwise, General de Brigade might fit the bill; it's designed for bigger games, but it is at 1:20 scale, and is pretty detailed, so may be what you are looking for.
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@SteveBurt: Thanks Steve yes, I have been looking at General de Brigade/Armee. The basing is just what I want but players over on the lardy forum have expressed doubts it will downscale very well.
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OK yes, that is what I meant. But my smallest unit will be the company
That's a lot of units. 4 Battalions could be thirty companies. A game with 30+ units will tend to bog down. No matter the scale the best number of manoeuvre elements in a game is usually in the region of 6 - 15. Also what do you gain by having companies as your basic units? They usually wouldn't operate as such except in unusual situations. You could perhaps have the ability to shed companies for specific things (eg deploying skirmishers or holding a building) instead. eg look at the 6 mm Waterloo thread. He has modified General de Brigade and fought the actions at Hougemont, etc with Companies defending.
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That's a lot of units. 4 Battalions could be thirty companies. A game with 30+ units will tend to bog down. No matter the scale the best number of manoeuvre elements in a game is usually in the region of 6 - 15. Also what do you gain by having companies as your basic units? They usually wouldn't operate as such except in unusual situations. You could perhaps have the ability to shed companies for specific things (eg deploying skirmishers or holding a building) instead. eg look at the 6 mm Waterloo thread. He has modified General de Brigade and fought the actions at Hougemont, etc with Companies defending.
What do I gain by having coys as the smallest units? Well, first of all I hope it will look pretty on the tabletop!
Secondly, I want to show the difference between coys of different nationalities by the way they are based, and to see if it makes a difference to game play.
Thirdly, I want to be able to move them around to make the different formations, column, line , square at the right time in a battle. What if a company or two fails to act on an order or doesn't get the order? That is interesting.
I looked at the thread of the 6mm Waterloo thread, and am currently digesting his blog. It appears he has replaced the Command and Control mechanisms of Gd'B with that of a different game altogether. I haven't got to where he is activating individual companies yet, I am interested in how he does that.
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Not quite the exact game scale you're looking at, but there's Song of Drums and Shakos Large Battle (as opposed to the very small skirmish game), which is a division per side.
http://www.ganeshagames.net/product_info.php?products_id=164
Chris
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I use General de brigade for my War of 1812 games and it works quite well. GdeB was designed for divsional level battles, which is ideal for the War of 1812. Most battle are divional level or less, in fact many engagements were brigade size or less. As units were frequnetly smaller than battalions, I have incorporated an older GdeB version of the musketry table to reflect units a small as five figures.
GdeB is highly recommended for small napoleonic era battles (vice skirmishes).
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What do I gain by having coys as the smallest units? Well, first of all I hope it will look pretty on the tabletop!
Secondly, I want to show the difference between coys of different nationalities by the way they are based, and to see if it makes a difference to game play.
Thirdly, I want to be able to move them around to make the different formations, column, line , square at the right time in a battle. What if a company or two fails to act on an order or doesn't get the order? That is interesting.
I looked at the thread of the 6mm Waterloo thread, and am currently digesting his blog. It appears he has replaced the Command and Control mechanisms of Gd'B with that of a different game altogether. I haven't got to where he is activating individual companies yet, I am interested in how he does that.
Well you could still do those things with Battalions as your units and companies as elements within those units. It would simplify command and control and activations.
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It would probably play very fast that way; a whole bn would either be able to activate or it wouldn't. Hmm actually that's not unlike the Pikeman's Lament rules I have been playing for ECW...
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Republic to Empire is specifically designed for 1:20 Napoleonics with big battalions. No need to try and fudge something else.
Battles can go up to mega multiplayer multi day affairs, but the base design is for a Division or supported Brigade level game.
4-6 Battalions.
The rulebook is currently on overstock sale for just £10 direct from League of Augsburg:
https://www.leagueofaugsburg.com/shop/products-cat-1.html (https://www.leagueofaugsburg.com/shop/products-cat-1.html)
Superb book, even if you don't use the rules the sections on organisation and force lists are well worth that money. Not to mention the wonderful pictures. Possibly the prettiest Napoleonic rulebook you will ever find.
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Thanks robh I will grab one of these. ;)
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Vodkafan, I am sure I have a copy of Paddy Griffith's 'Napoleonic Wargames for fun'
I will try & find it, (but you know how 'untidy' my filing system is at the moment)
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Vodkafan, I am sure I have a copy of Paddy Griffith's 'Napoleonic Wargames for fun'
I will try & find it, (but you know how 'untidy' my filing system is at the moment)
It will give you something to do, and you know you will find lots of other "lost" things along the way!
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Republic to Empire is specifically designed for 1:20 Napoleonics with big battalions. No need to try and fudge something else.
Battles can go up to mega multiplayer multi day affairs, but the base design is for a Division or supported Brigade level game.
4-6 Battalions.
The rulebook is currently on overstock sale for just £10 direct from League of Augsburg:
https://www.leagueofaugsburg.com/shop/products-cat-1.html (https://www.leagueofaugsburg.com/shop/products-cat-1.html)
Superb book, even if you don't use the rules the sections on organisation and force lists are well worth that money. Not to mention the wonderful pictures. Possibly the prettiest Napoleonic rulebook you will ever find.
robh, I have tried several times two days running but can't reach the website, it keeps timing out.
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robh, I have tried several times two days running but can't reach the website, it keeps timing out.
Strange, link seems fine as far as I can tell, goes straight to the books section of the store. You could try deleting the "/shop/products-cat-1.html" bit and go via the home page, or drop Barry a line at:
wordtwister AT hotmail DOT co DOT uk
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Could I suggest a slight rethink?
24 figure battalions still look pretty cool in 28mm so why not try for a small division of 8 battalions of 24 rather than 4 battalions of 48?
The former would give a much better game and wouldn’t take too long with rules like Black Powder? It would still be do-able on say a 4 x 6 foot table.
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Could I suggest a slight rethink?
24 figure battalions still look pretty cool in 28mm so why not try for a small division of 8 battalions of 24 rather than 4 battalions of 48?
The former would give a much better game and wouldn’t take too long with rules like Black Powder? It would still be do-able on say a 4 x 6 foot table.
Thanks General but not cool enough....the problem with 24 figure battalions is that I can't represent the national differences in company strengths and organisation, which is what interests me both visually and how it may play, if I can find some good rules...why do you say it would be a much better game?
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It sounds like this is what you are looking for:-
https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/12630/complete-brigadier
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That looks interesting , but again the battalions are small and I doubt that I would be able to find this anywhere, looks like a single print run 36 years ago...and no dice, some of the comments say combats are a bit predictable
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Hi Vodkafan
I would go with General de Brigade i play it with War of 1812 and having a brigade or 2 max on the table is fine the games dont last long with 4-8 units you can push through the turns quick , and its nice to see 36-40 fig units on the table in 28mm... so with in 2 hours you will have a result.
What i do is take the casualties off as we go as well so you get the feel that them units are taking a pounding 8)
I hope you stick with your project happy gaming hope this helps LR.
P.S General de Brigade is a great set of rules .
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Interesting subject. I would like to try rules of that scope myself.
GdB would probably work.
Depending on the detail you want Sharp Practice might work with a few amendments. I imagine the rules would play fine with one company played as a Group per the rules, and having a battalion as a Formation. In order for a battalion commander to command a six company battalion you should probably introduce a house rule. For instance that a Big Man that is a battalion commander may command any number of groups as long as they are a part of a single Formation (i e battalion, and
regardless of the normal limit - that a Big Man can only command a formation with as many groups as his Status Level).
Good luck and keep us posted!
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Thanks Mattias. I do agree that Sharp Practice could give a good Battalion level game with some modifications.
It has rules for formations that put it a bit above most skirmish rulesets.
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Hi Vodkafan
I would go with General de Brigade i play it with War of 1812 and having a brigade or 2 max on the table is fine the games dont last long with 4-8 units you can push through the turns quick , and its nice to see 36-40 fig units on the table in 28mm... so with in 2 hours you will have a result.
What i do is take the casualties off as we go as well so you get the feel that them units are taking a pounding 8)
I hope you stick with your project happy gaming hope this helps LR.
P.S General de Brigade is a great set of rules .
Thanks Lawn Ranger that is good to know that it plays well at the Brigade level. Did you have the Brigade Commander as the top level of command and have the ADCs assigned to battalions instead? And 2-3 hours is the right amount of time for a game for me, time is always in short supply for me! Yes I will stick with it , I have bought a few hundred figures already over the last couple of years. Time to get painting..
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Lots of good advice and rulesets I didn't know about before, thanks all!
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Hi Vodkafan
yes thats what we did with command and control ..
No set of rules is set in stone If you dont like something in it change it to your style of gaming .. :)
But i must say play General de Brigade as it is and you will not go far wrong in my eyes.
happy gaming dave.v
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Black Powder is used for company level in de AWI supplement book. See no problem for the napoleonic period.
When going for the company level I would use one rank instead of the double rank most "mordern' rules use
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Black Powder is used for company level in de AWI supplement book. See no problem for the napoleonic period.
When going for the company level I would use one rank instead of the double rank most "mordern' rules use
Why the one rank?
Personally I've enjoyed going to a lower level with 'Chef de Battalion' - 1:5 figure ratios and just a couple of battalions, a squadron of cavalry and a section of guns per side. Company drill and terrain give you a much greater appreciation of the difficulty of managing a regiment (or even a battalion) on the field.
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one rank because imho when you have a company of 120men in 1:20 scale = 6 figures or even smaller (eg 80 = 4 figures) it looks better in one rank.
but just imho.
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Then we differ :)
I favour two ranks and any battalion smaller than 24 figures is just too small to look good.
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duc de limbourg
I think you are missing the point here we are not talking about skirmishing games of a few coys
we are talking about 4-8 battalions per side on table with 24- 40 figs per Bn.. .
as for putting a 40 fig guards regiment in a single fig. line that would be around 60 cm - 2 ft long and it just would not work. .
Can you imagine a brigade of british in 3 lines covering 6ft and then you would get 3-4 french bn in tight column of 2 coy wide 3 deep on a small a frontage of 9cm. they could all hit the same battalion and the british at the ends could not have the range or the angle to give supporting firer
Thats why there are no rules that puts Bn in a single fig line when you have 24 + figs in a unit it will just not work! It will not run right as the scale will be all a miss as well.. most close order volley in 28mm are around 9-12 and thats just half the lenght of your single bn line..
I have to go with Littlearmies on this one :) single figs in a line :(
happy gaming LR
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Single rank of figures gives a more accurate footprint, but it looks terrible, IMO. More like a skirmish line.
I'd always favour 2 ranks. If you want a better foot[print, go with large units like the Charles Grant or Peter Young rules, which have 50 or more figures in a battalion
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duc de limbourg
I think you are missing the point here we are not talking about skirmishing games of a few coys
we are talking about 4-8 battalions per side on table with 24- 40 figs per Bn.. .
as for putting a 40 fig guards regiment in a single fig. line that would be around 60 cm - 2 ft long and it just would not work. .
Can you imagine a brigade of british in 3 lines covering 6ft and then you would get 3-4 french bn in tight column of 2 coy wide 3 deep on a small a frontage of 9cm. they could all hit the same battalion and the british at the ends could not have the range or the angle to give supporting firer
Thats why there are no rules that puts Bn in a single fig line when you have 24 + figs in a unit it will just not work! It will not run right as the scale will be all a miss as well.. most close order volley in 28mm are around 9-12 and thats just half the lenght of your single bn line..
I have to go with Littlearmies on this one :) single figs in a line :(
happy gaming LR
Yes I was a little surprised by Duc de limbourg's post, I think he may have got the wrong end of the stick about what I am after....My French bns will be about 40 strong and the largest full strength British battalion (52nd) will be 48 figures..the smallest battalions will be about 33.
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duc de limbourg
I think you are missing the point here we are not talking about skirmishing games of a few coys
we are talking about 4-8 battalions per side on table with 24- 40 figs per Bn.. .
as for putting a 40 fig guards regiment in a single fig. line that would be around 60 cm - 2 ft long and it just would not work. .
Can you imagine a brigade of british in 3 lines covering 6ft and then you would get 3-4 french bn in tight column of 2 coy wide 3 deep on a small a frontage of 9cm. they could all hit the same battalion and the british at the ends could not have the range or the angle to give supporting firer
Thats why there are no rules that puts Bn in a single fig line when you have 24 + figs in a unit it will just not work! It will not run right as the scale will be all a miss as well.. most close order volley in 28mm are around 9-12 and thats just half the lenght of your single bn line..
I have to go with Littlearmies on this one :) single figs in a line :(
happy gaming LR
But that would reflect the actual ground scale better.
A guards Battalion of 1000 would take up about 280 m, a French column by division would take up 70 m. Assuming 20 mm per figure gives you 800 mm for the guards of 40 figures and 200 mm for the assault column (of 30 figures) if a French Company is 5 figures and a guard company 4. This gives a rough ground scale of 1:350.
The depths of both formations are still excessive with that ground scale. The British will take up 20 mm but should be less than 10 and the French will be 60 mm but should be about 35 mm.
If you go with deeper formations then the ground scale will go up (to get the "correct" length of line) so the depth of units will be even more exaggerated.
eg a two deep line would give a British Battalion 400 mm long and 40 mm deep. That ground scale is 1:700 so the line should only be 4 mm deep - it wasn't called the thin red line for nothing. As for the Battalion in assault column that should now be less than 20 mm deep but will in fact be 120 mm deep. By doubling up on the depth you are creating an entirely false picture of what a Napoleonic battle looked like. Stack a few battalions together to get a regimental column and it will take up a socking 480 mm when in reality it should be 70 mm.
edit. The firing distance of 12" for a musket is about right with a 600 mm line. Maximum range of a musket with any hope of hitting anything was less than 150 yards which is about half the length of the British Guards in Line. The muskets literally couldn't hit a barn door at ranges greater than that so a large unit in line couldn't shoot from one end to other with any chance of hitting anything.
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I think the only time wargames get anywhere near a realistic ground scale is 6mm or smaller. I don't worry about ground scale at all.
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Right on Brother :)looks like we singing from the same sheet !
Look at 28mm WW2 of flames of war !
like i said take a good look at General de brigade,,
End of the day ,horses for courses ,play how you want to play the game bugger the rest off us :)
happy gaming Dave.v