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Miniatures Adventure => Medieval Adventures => Topic started by: Silent Invader on March 18, 2018, 09:45:24 PM

Title: WotR Project Revisited
Post by: Silent Invader on March 18, 2018, 09:45:24 PM
This thread has now become home for the return to my WotR project, which has been somewhat quiet for sometime. Most of the minis were painted in 2011/12 so quite early in my hobby career.



Just a placeholder image while I sort out the AAR of a small WotR skirmish using a modification of the ‘Old West’ Fistful of Lead rules.

I’m still testing the mods but it includes units thereby enabling volley fire shooting and mass combats.

Title: Re: WotR Skirmish (using FFOL) - placeholder
Post by: Captain Blood on March 18, 2018, 11:38:21 PM
Very interested to see how you get on with this Steve.
 8)
Title: Re: WotR Skirmish (using FFOL) - placeholder
Post by: Silent Invader on March 19, 2018, 01:55:04 AM
Thanks Richard  :)

Regarding the rules, the basic engine is FFOL, of which my modding is entirely unofficial. I won’t go into the detail of the basic engine as there’s plenty of reviews and AARs on LAF and elsewhere. FFOL is available from Wiley Games: https://wiley-games.myshopify.com (https://wiley-games.myshopify.com). It is my favourite set of rules (fun, simple, tactical, versatile).

This WotR mod of FFOL uses some of the Special Rules from various official supplements and from the official Horse & Musket version (such as Area Terrain and Ambush). The Unit functionality is built from the Goons mechanic that I believe will be in the official Sci-Fi version that is currently being kickstarted. Please be mindful that  I won’t be providing a copy of  the WotR QRF as much of it is a straight lift from FFOL.

This experiment is at a very early stage, with only the first test game played, which was limited to 8 figures a side (3 single figures plus a Unit of 3 and a Unit of 2). As each Unit gets only the one card, each side therefore started with a hand of 5 cards. The aim is to develop the mods through incrementally more complex and larger games, with the aim of being able to field a force of up to say 6 Units of max 8 minis per player.

I’ll comment on some of the mods during the AAR but the dice used are worth an early mention. The die allocated to each figure is used for Shooting, Close Combat and Recovery. The die size is a simple representation of the sum of a figure’s status, courage, skill and armour.

To start then, the figure reference sheets:
Title: Re: WotR Skirmish (using FFOL) - placeholder
Post by: Silent Invader on March 19, 2018, 02:19:21 AM
In game, the sheets are populated with counters that keep track of what is happening to the relevant figures. Obviously, figures can be laid on their side or markers used to achieve the same effect, but I prefer to keep the table clear.
Title: Re: WotR Skirmish (using FFOL) - placeholder
Post by: Dr DeAth on March 19, 2018, 07:37:26 AM
Looking like a promising start to a medieval version - I've got a load of Robin Hood mini's that I'd like to try these out with when you're done  :)
Title: Re: WotR Skirmish (using FFOL) - placeholder
Post by: Silent Invader on March 19, 2018, 07:50:30 AM
Looking like a promising start to a medieval version - I've got a load of Robin Hood mini's that I'd like to try these out with when you're done  :)

Funnily enough, while I was playing I found myself thinking of your Robin Hood game at BLAM (2014?).
Title: Re: WotR Skirmish (using FFOL) - placeholder
Post by: OSHIROmodels on March 19, 2018, 08:26:27 AM
Looking forward to seeing how it plays out  :)
Title: Re: WotR Skirmish (using FFOL) - placeholder
Post by: Black Burt on March 19, 2018, 08:39:25 AM
Looks interesting, I'm a fan of FfoL so I would like to hear more.
Title: Re: WotR Skirmish (using FFOL) - UD: scenario added
Post by: Silent Invader on March 19, 2018, 11:30:02 AM
Thanks folks  :). We’ll see how it goes.  ;)



The game was played solo without conscious bias. There’s no doubt that FFOL is at its most fun when played with like minded folk but in the absence of pals (or for testing) I still enjoy trying to optimise the play of each hand.

The scenario was a simple one. Two opposed knights, accompanied by a small retinue, happen to be traveling the same lane and chance upon each other as they enter a hamlet. A long-standing family grievance raises its head and whether motivated by hatred or honour neither will give way to the other, and so a fight ensues.

The following images show the table layout and start positions (which were diced for).
Title: Re: WotR Skirmish (using FFOL) - UD: scenario added
Post by: OSHIROmodels on March 19, 2018, 11:41:35 AM
Brill  8)
Title: Re: WotR Skirmish (using FFOL) - UD: scenario added
Post by: DonVoss on March 19, 2018, 12:36:48 PM
Really intristing to see how you play that out on a small table....great.

Looking forward for more action....;)

Cheers,
Don
Title: Re: WotR Skirmish (using FFOL) - UD: scenario added
Post by: BaronVonJ on March 19, 2018, 01:23:40 PM
Looking great!
Just as a thought. We've played FfoL with whole stands before. We treat each unit as single mini for purposes of cards/activation. Wounds become minis removed. We don't use the negative for wounds.
Title: Re: WotR Skirmish (using FFOL) - placeholder
Post by: Malamute on March 19, 2018, 02:08:38 PM
Looking like a promising start to a medieval version - I've got a load of Robin Hood mini's that I'd like to try these out with when you're done  :)

What a good idea ;D
Title: Re: WotR Skirmish (using FFOL) - UD: scenario added
Post by: Malamute on March 19, 2018, 02:10:40 PM

Lovely photos too Steve, the whole set up looks great - board, buildings, shrubs, etc. Wonderful :-*
Title: Re: WotR Skirmish (using FFOL) - UD: first blood
Post by: Silent Invader on March 19, 2018, 03:34:34 PM
Thanks all !  :D

We've played FfoL with whole stands before. We treat each unit as single mini for purposes of cards/activation. Wounds become minis removed.

Yep, I picked up that up from your SciFi Goons and have done something similar. Each Unit is dealt one card for its  individually based minis with one mini removed for each Wound. More on that below.  :)



The men of Rocheforde to the left of the table moved first, their Unit of 2 archers running forward to take the light cover provided by some bushes.

Figures in a Unit that are in base-to-base contact are Formed-Up and so move as a body. So, on playing from the one card, the two archers (who have the same die and weapons) are activated. Note that when the figures in a Unit have become dispersed, activation of the Unit is restricted and so cannot be of all figures but of a part.

The Hackneye archers were next up and they moved forward of their own column to bring the Rocheforte bowmen just within long range: two hits caused one  archer to be killed and the survivor to be Pinned.

Two hits against two targets behind partial cover at long range wasn’t just lucky dice rolling, as positioning was significant. By being Formed-Up (base-to-base contact) and by staying close to their Leader the Hackneye archers had additional Shooting modifiers totalling +2, which they made good use of.  Also, figures in Units die at one wound (W1) , rather than the more usual three, meaning that anything other than a Pin is deadly.  Note that while Shooting, Close Combat and Recovery are tested using the figure Status Die, Wounds are always tested with a D10.

With the threat from the Rocheforte archers presently nullified, the Hackneye’s Unit of three billmen run forward to close the distance but blocking line of sight for their own archers as they did so. The Hackneye man-at-arms then also advances to position himself in support. Seeking to regain the initiative, bravely (or desperately) the Rocheforte billmen run to meet them and the two Units engage in a bout of Close Combat. Both Units receive a Pin but the Rochefortes also lose a man killed. The Hackneye man-at-arms does not participate in this fighting as he is blocked by friendly billmen.

Close Combat is tested on a figure-versus-figure basis with any killed figure removed. However, for Units the Pin isn’t against the figure but is accrued against the Unit. When the number of Pins exceed 50% of the figures in the Unit, then the Unit is Pinned. As the Rocheforte Unit of billmen has two figures still in play but only  one Pin, the “exceed 50%” threshold is not met and so the Unit is not as yet Pinned.

With the middle of the three Rocheforte billmen having been killed, when the bout of Close Combat has finished the two survivors close the gap (not pictured).

When Formed-Up Units incur a casualty that causes a break in base-to-base contact of 1” or less, they can close up the gap. Thus, single casualties in a line will not immediately cause the loss of Formed-Up status but multiple adjacent casualties can.
Title: Re: WotR Skirmish (using FFOL) - UD: first blood
Post by: Malamute on March 19, 2018, 03:38:52 PM
More lovely photos :-*
Title: Re: WotR Skirmish (using FFOL) - UD: first blood
Post by: Silent Invader on March 19, 2018, 03:40:22 PM
More lovely photos :-*

I bet you didn’t read the “rules” bit  :D

Only joking, I know you are fully immersed in a Fistful of Garlic  ;)
Title: Re: WotR Skirmish (using FFOL) - UD: first blood
Post by: OSHIROmodels on March 19, 2018, 03:47:31 PM
Looks great  8)

Figures in a Unit that are in base-to-base contact move as a body. So, on playing from the one card, the two archers (who have the same die and weapons) are activated. Note that when the figures in a Unit have become dispersed, activation of the Unit is restricted and so cannot be of all figures but of a part.

So the figures from that particular unit are just left for that turn not doing anything?

See, I read the rules bit  ;D
Title: Re: WotR Skirmish (using FFOL) - UD: first blood
Post by: Silent Invader on March 19, 2018, 04:17:57 PM
Thanks chaps  ;)

So the figures from that particular unit are just left for that turn not doing anything?

See, I read the rules bit  ;D

 :D

Correct (mostly). Imagine a Unit with 3 survivors is dispersed with 2 minis still Formed-Up and 1 single. The overall Unit has accrued 1 Pin which at less than the “exceeds 50%” threshold has no immediate effect. On activation the player has a choice of the two figures or the one, and either might suit the player’s objectives and tactics. However, dispersing the Unit in this way can be risky. If the enemy were to achieve a Pin against the single mini, then the overall Unit would now have 2 Pins for 3 minis, meaning the threshold was met and the Unit now Pinned. To discourage enemy players from  ‘gaming’ by picking off single minis to Pin the rest of a Unit elsewhere, players can sacrifice stray singles which entitles them to remove a previously accrued Pin at the same time.

Basically, Units are at their strongest when their entirety is Formed-Up.
Title: Re: WotR Skirmish (using FFOL) - UD: turn 1 completes
Post by: Silent Invader on March 20, 2018, 05:07:56 PM
Both sides move their knights forward to be sure of maintaining Leader radius.

Bannermen within 1” of their Knights can activate at the same time so as to accompany the Knight but in doing so sacrifice their own card (Knights and Bannermen are not a Unit and so are dealt a card each).

With a gap at the end of the Rocheforde line, their man-at-arms moves into it and wields his pole axe against a Hackneye billman. Aside from the difference in dice size (D12 versus D10), the pole axe is a superior weapon to the billhook, which gives Rocheforde +1.  Hackneye lose their man.

Note that the Hockleye MAA fought only 1 of the 3 billmen, not the entire Unit. This is because the MAA was the attacker and by seizing the initiative in this way he did not count as Outnumbered for this first bout of a Close Combat.

Turn 1 is over.
Title: Re: WotR Skirmish (using FFOL) - UD: turn 1 completes
Post by: Silent Invader on March 20, 2018, 10:29:24 PM
Round 2 starts with the Hackneye  bill men successfully removing 1 of 2 Pins, which then enables them to  force a bout of Close Combat with the Rocheforde bill men: they inflicti a kill.

The Hackneye archers cross over the fence to try and get line of sight on the Rocheforde Knight. Despite their move he’s still almost completely screened by foliage, which counts as heavy cover, and so they both miss.  The Rocheforde archer successfully unPins and with the Hackneye Knight out of line of sight, take a shot at his Bannerman, which inflicts a Wound and Pin.

The Rocheforde MAA runs through the gap in the line and attacks the Hackneye Knight. Brave but futile - he dies. The Hackneye MAA attempts the same and earns the same result.

The Rocheforde Bannerman attempts to clear a Wound but fails to do so and Creeps behind the hedge.

Leaving his Pinned Bannerman behind, the Hackneye Knight charges forward as far as he can to engage the sole remaining Rocheforde  bill man, who is killed.

The Hackneye’s seem to have the upper hand. If the skirmish goes into a third round they have the numbers  (6 versus 3). However, the last card of the Round has yet to be played: that of the Rocheforde Knight.........
Title: Re: WotR Skirmish (using FFOL) - UD: turn 1 completes
Post by: Elk101 on March 20, 2018, 10:51:40 PM
Beautiful photos, really atmospheric.
Title: Re: WotR Skirmish (using FFOL) - UD: turn 1 completes
Post by: Captain Blood on March 20, 2018, 11:01:25 PM
Shplendid!
(Will it work for a 300+ figure game though Steve? ;))
Title: Re: WotR Skirmish (using FFOL) - UD: turn 1 completes
Post by: Silent Invader on March 21, 2018, 12:09:42 AM
Thanks chaps  :)

Shplendid!
(Will it work for a 300+ figure game though Steve? ;))

No idea yet, though I prefer it to my own rules.

I can’t see any player managing more than 6 Units of up to 8 minis, so with 6 players 300 is theoretically possible. Which, coincidentally, is how we played the big games with my rules.

So I’m optimistic.  ;)
Title: Re: WotR Skirmish (using FFOL) - UD: turn 1 completes
Post by: OSHIROmodels on March 21, 2018, 07:23:24 AM
Only 26 ‘units’ per side unless you add another deck of cards  ;)
Title: Re: WotR Skirmish (using FFOL) - UD: turn 1 completes
Post by: Silent Invader on March 21, 2018, 08:25:06 AM
Only 26 ‘units’ per side unless you add another deck of cards  ;)

That’s an option  :D

Realistically, with so many cards a turn could take forever if played one card at a time, though with my old rules we started the game by effectively playing the 3 ‘Battles’ of each army against each other, so a lot of action could take place at the same time (which created some ‘fog of war’ as players concentrated on what they were doing some times to the detriment of the bigger picture).

It might be that bigger Units of say 16 work or each player gets dealt only 4 cards per round so can’t actually activate all 6 Units (giving a hint of reduced command and control).

TBH I don’t really know at the moment and finding out is one of the joys of experimentation  :D

Though of course this might all turn out to be a damp squib - but at least my WotR minis will have been played with and will have thereby justified their continuing retention*.  lol


*Not so much my The North terrain though, as I’m rebasing the minis with a sandier effect.
Title: Re: WotR Skirmish (using FFOL) - UD: First test game completed
Post by: Silent Invader on March 21, 2018, 12:33:39 PM
Sir Edward Mortimer of Rocheforde (the Knight in Murrey & Blue) has the last card of the Round to play and it’s a Deuce (a Special Card, which allows two dice rolls rather than one, with the best result being used).  He charges into Henry Pierce of Hackneye (in Tawny & Cream) to force a bout of Close Combat.

Leaders (no more than one per Player per game) die at 5 Wounds rather than the usual 3. While they can die slowly through Wounds accumulated, a quick kill can be delivered with the roll of a natural 10.

The two Knights roll and Rocheforde gets a 14 or a 3, with Hackneye getting a 1. With  13 Wound dice to roll, Rocheforde rolls mostly Pins and two Wounds. However, amongst the 13 dice there is a single 10 and so Henry Pierce of Hackneye is killed.

What had looked like it would be a win for Hackneye is now a loss with its remaining archers and bill men ready to flee the table, leaving their Pinned Bannerman to his fate.

The penultimate image show the final dispositions (the Hackneye Bannerman is out of shot to the right) before peace returns to the hamlet.
Title: Re: WotR Skirmish (using FFOL) - UD: First test game completed
Post by: Silent Invader on March 21, 2018, 01:05:09 PM
I was pleased with how the rules played out - it was a lot of fun notwithstanding being solo.

Next steps will be to write-up the QRF (which won’t be copied here as it contains some straight lift of FFOL content). For the next game  I’ll probably increase each Force to 16 foot or thereabouts, and have them approach the village from the fields with a view to seizing and holding it. For that though, I’ll need more figures.

A few words on the minis. They are from a collection I’ve had for some years, which I thought was looking a bit dated. I’ve now realised that what I didn’t like was the small (20mm), darker bases, so I’ve started rebasing to 25mm with sandy-coloured bases. The contrast also seems to result in better pictures.

The images below show the two Forces in the game (each on a movement tray) and then a sample of the older basing.

It just so happens that I have started on building a generic sandy-coloured board (on which this game was played) that will serve as the basis for southern England (WotR), Iberia (Napoleonic Peninsular War), Arizona (Old West), possibly Afghanistan (Second Afghan War, though I might not keep that project), Sicily (WW2, 1943) and somewhere as yet undecided for Future Wars / Sci Fi. The downside is that I now have an awful lot of terrain that is surplus to requirements.......... ouch.
Title: Re: WotR Skirmish (using FFOL) - UD: First test game completed
Post by: OSHIROmodels on March 21, 2018, 05:06:05 PM
Great report Steve, the WotR mods seem to work fine. Can’t wait to have a go  :D

Jolly nice photos as well  :)
Title: Re: WotR Skirmish (using FFOL) - UD: First test game completed
Post by: Elk101 on March 21, 2018, 05:38:19 PM
I'd forgotten how nicely painted those figures were. They're really nice.
Title: Re: WotR Skirmish (using FFOL) - UD: First test game completed
Post by: Captain Blood on March 21, 2018, 08:19:37 PM
I'd forgotten how nicely painted those figures were. They're really nice.

They are. I have lots of piccies of those fellows in action from our various games down a few years  :)
Title: Re: WotR Skirmish (using FFOL) - UD: First test game completed
Post by: Silent Invader on March 22, 2018, 04:55:00 AM
Thanks Steve and Richard.

I think I’ve got about 130 painted that I want to rebase and revarnish as I did with the above, though I reckon I must also have about 100 unpainted or awaiting assembly, including more artillery, more cavalry and more baggage train.
Title: Re: WotR Skirmish (using FFOL) - UD: First test game completed
Post by: Eric the Shed on March 23, 2018, 11:13:17 AM


It just so happens that I have started on building a generic sandy-coloured board (on which this game was played) that will serve as the basis for southern England (WotR), Iberia (Napoleonic Peninsular War), Arizona (Old West), possibly Afghanistan (Second Afghan War, though I might not keep that project), Sicily (WW2, 1943) and somewhere as yet undecided for Future Wars / Sci Fi. The downside is that I now have an awful lot of terrain that is surplus to requirements.......... ouch.

a man can never have too much terrain
Title: Re: WotR Skirmish (using FFOL) - UD: First test game completed
Post by: NurgleHH on March 23, 2018, 01:48:19 PM
a great project again, Steve. I hope you come to BLAm this year and we can have another game. Maybe a SSS-Game with Dr. the viking again, it was so much fun.
Title: Re: WotR Skirmish (using FFOL) - UD: First test game completed
Post by: Silent Invader on March 23, 2018, 06:28:06 PM
a man can never have too much terrain

The fun is in the making, not the storing  :D
Title: Re: WotR Skirmish (using FFOL) - UD: First test game completed
Post by: Silent Invader on March 23, 2018, 06:31:03 PM
a great project again, Steve. I hope you come to BLAm this year and we can have another game. Maybe a SSS-Game with Dr. the viking again, it was so much fun.

Hi Dirk, BLAM is pencilled in for this year and I’d like to bring a game. I doubt that it will be SSS though as it’s highly likely I’ll have sold it by then as part of my necessary ‘space recovery’.  :( :)
Title: Re: WotR Skirmish (using FFOL) - UD: First test game completed
Post by: emosbur on March 25, 2018, 02:01:09 AM
I don´t know the rules Fistful of Lead, so I have to ask if the napoleonic version is usable in lieu of the Wild West version (because if I bought it, the napoleonic one would be more useful to me).
Title: Re: WotR Skirmish (using FFOL) - UD: First test game completed
Post by: Silent Invader on March 25, 2018, 06:11:37 AM
Useable as a basis for modification to play WotR?

Most certainly, as FFOL:Horse & Muskets is a derivation of FFOL:Reloaded.  I have H&M for my own Nappy project but I haven’t played it yet - it certainly reads well and elements of it were brought forward into my WotR interpretation. Neither version includes rules for Units but if you check out the impending Sci-Fi variant (AARS here and at the Wiley Games blog and info at Kickstarter) that has Goons, which influenced my mod for Units.

So why did I mod Reloaded rather than H&M?

Just a personal preference to start with the source material, that’s all.
Title: Re: WotR Skirmish (using FFOL) - UD: First test game completed
Post by: emosbur on March 25, 2018, 11:11:34 PM
Many thanks Steve.
Title: Re: WotR Skirmish (using FFOL) - UD: First test game completed
Post by: BaronVonJ on March 26, 2018, 02:38:12 PM
emosbur,
Fistful of Lead: Horse & Musket is for small scale skirmishes, think Sharpe and his boys or Last of the Mohicans.
Here''s a few from LAF:
http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=107266.15

And

http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=107454.0
 and here's some I ran last weekend at TwisterCon:
http://baronvonj.blogspot.com/2018/03/weekend-at-twistercon.html

I am working on a larger scale variant, but right now I like the level of battle we're imagining here. heroic little fights in the skirmish line or behind the lines. Plenty of good rules out there for great big battles. Also lets you try a lot of periods without investing a lot of money. Ten figs all you need for 1v1. Can play 8 players easy.
Give us a google for all the reviews.
Title: Re: WotR Skirmish (using FFOL) - UD: First test game completed
Post by: emosbur on March 27, 2018, 11:28:47 AM
Thanks Her Baron.



Milo.
Title: Re: WotR Project Revisited
Post by: Silent Invader on May 18, 2018, 02:08:56 PM
Not much of an update but the rebasing of figures originally painted in 20011/12 continues. While doing so I’m taking the opportunity to reorganise the minis into two forces, which has necessitated some changing of house colours.

The two forces are fictitious:

Sir Henry Mortimer, Baron of Rochforde
(Murrey & Blue; motif = The Roach)

(http://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/33/2031-180518143936-331772306.jpeg)

Sir Henry Pierce of Hackney
(Tawny & Cream; motif = The Steer’s Head)

(http://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/33/2031-180518143936-33176280.jpeg)

Only 26 completed for each force with many, many more to do. Plus about 150 that have yet to see paint, including mounted, cannon, wagons and civilians.

The two forces are almost identical:

For Rochforde:

1 x Lord
1 x Bannerman
2 x Men-At-Arms (Sword)
1 x Men-At-Arms (Pole Axe)
1 x Specialist (Gunne)
8 x Billmen
6 x Bowmen
6 x Bowmen

The Hackney chaps have a Musician in place of 1 x MAA and a Crossbow in place of the Gunne

The next game will likely be a straight up fight and then I’ll add more minis after that, possibly some  more bills and a few light horse.
Title: Re: WotR Project Revisited
Post by: OSHIROmodels on May 18, 2018, 02:17:33 PM
Splendid  :)

Did you check all the repainted armour?

 ;)
Title: Re: WotR Project Revisited
Post by: Silent Invader on May 18, 2018, 02:20:15 PM
Splendid  :)

Did you check all the repainted armour?

 ;)

 lol

Not well enough the first time ....

Edit: by the by, these were originally varnished with Revell gloss then matt but have all now had a single  coat of W&N Galleria matt, which has done wonders to the finish.
Title: Re: WotR Project Revisited
Post by: Captain Blood on May 18, 2018, 08:56:30 PM
Excellent Steve. Get on with those other 150 or so, and we can have a game  :D
Title: Re: WotR Project Revisited
Post by: Kitsune on May 20, 2018, 07:20:26 PM
Nice grubby armour on the men at arms- looks great
Title: Re: WotR Project Revisited
Post by: Cubs on May 20, 2018, 08:03:19 PM
Lovely stuff.
Title: Re: WotR Project Revisited
Post by: Silent Invader on May 21, 2018, 10:36:12 AM
Thanks all. :)

Excellent Steve. Get on with those other 150 or so, and we can have a game  :D

I’m flirting with and flitting between various projects but my enthusiasm for a WotR bash and thrash is renewed.  ;)

Title: Re: WotR Project Revisited
Post by: Captain Blood on May 21, 2018, 11:41:48 AM
Hurray!  :)