Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => Pikes, Muskets and Flouncy Shirts => Topic started by: Ingmar on May 10, 2018, 02:31:25 PM
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Hi there,
Whilst waiting on the paint of my saga Irish reïnforcements to dry, I dug out my stash of WSS Magazines and stumbled across issue 93, concerning the 80 years war.
A spark of inspiration was struck followed by a couple of days of google fu concerning the miniatures. Stumbling across the news that TAG is about to release a dedicated range of Dutch and Spanish miniatures for the conflict, much excitement was had...
Now I find myself in the planning stages of a new project, but the last time I learned anything about the period was when my primary school teacher tought me dutch national history, which is around 25 years ago!
Any pointer for good information about the conflict, the uniforms, the rules I could use and the basing conventions? Only thing I'm really set on is 28mm miniatures...
Any pointers would be very helpful!
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Well, I suppose two questions will have to be answered before delving into this more (not that I'm suggesting I have the expertise to go into much more detail!): what period of the war are you looking for, and concerning rules, how big a game?
For the former, well, you are looking at a period of - believe it or not - some 80 years, so things weren't exactly the same throughout. Early on, you're looking at fancy slashed cloth and equipment not unlike that of typical conquistadores. The late period would instead see wide-brimmed hats and buff coats (for which many suitable figures can also be found in ranges for the English Civil War). Haven't kept track of what TAG is due to release, but I imagine these will be for the (much less well represented) early or mid phase?
In terms of rules, there are ample options for small skirmishes (En Garde), a few dozen figures a side (e.g. Pikeman's Lament) or much larger (Pike&Shotte, and many others).
It's all up to you!
EDIT: Forgot to mention, there are two very recent Ospreys on the topic (whole war, 1 on infantry, 1 on 'the rest'). Haven't read them in any great detail, but always a good introduction, especially for the relevant colours of cloth, sashes, feathers and indeed armour itself. Though you can't seem to go far wrong with 'orange' most of the time.. (aside from the armour, which for much of the period was black).
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the Osprey books are better than many of their 16/17th century titles, though as always constrained by space. Miles better than their awful Imperialist books
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If you can, get a copy of the C16th book by Ian Heath that Foundry published. A mine of information for those, like me, who can only read English text.
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I second the Ian Heath book but i'd imagine it'd be incredibly hard to get a hold of. The two Osprey's are worth a read as well. There are plenty of books out there that will give you and idea of how the war developed from a large scale. I'd reccomend George Parkers books as they are well written and researched. It's worth looking at books about the French wars of revolution as well as the low level warfare was similar in both. There is a good article on Wikipedia about the Cologne war which was also contigious. As for rules, I've used Donnybrook for lower level stuff but I am building up my forces to use a variant of Sharp Practice that came out in one of the Lardy summer specials, called 'Sharply Buffed'. Their is also Spanish Fury from Perfect Captain which is free and worth reading through for ideas. The battles themselves, in the early war, weren't all that interesting (being fairly one sided in favour of the Spanish) but the real interest is in the low level raids and 'actions' where small forces and local commanders essentially fought their own private wars. So much great stuff in their for wargaming.
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The Heath book is excellent, worth a quick look is the old George Gush articles from Airfix http://warfare2.netai.net/Renaissance/RenaissanceWarfare-AirfixMagazineArticles.htm
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Thanks for all the helpful replies! I hadn't considered the exact period, but that'll be down to what I find in my 2 new Osprey Publications. :D
I also didn't realised that Pikemen's Lament is the adaptation of Lion Rampant, which I already own. This considered, it seems like a good starting point, as SAGA sized games are my best bet to enter a new gaming system (seeing as I'm a glacial speed painter) and the basing requirements are very unrestrictive, so with a little planning I should be able to paint up a small skirmish sized force and add to that if I'm still up for it.. In theory... ;)
B.t.w. I contacted T.A.G. and was told the new range will start out with early war "Sea Beggars" and skirmish troops this October and then regular dutch troops for the 1590's around May of next year. Which is perfect, considering I have still a lot of planning to do!
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B.t.w. I contacted T.A.G. and was told the new range will start out with early war "Sea Beggars" and skirmish troops this October and then regular dutch troops for the 1590's around May of next year. Which is perfect, considering I have still a lot of planning to do!
And thanks in return for that info! I love it when the companies not only reply, but are happy to share all such information.
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If you want to do the Sea Beggars period, think Elizabethan costume. The Wargames Foundry "Seadogs and Swashbucklers" range are a good start (obviously steer clear of the longbowmen, meant to portray British troops of that same period). Also very useful are their late 16th century range (many of which can be used for either Spanish or Dutch troops).
https://www.wargamesfoundry.com/collections/seadogs-and-swashbucklers
https://www.wargamesfoundry.com/collections/late-16th-century-1560-1610
https://www.wargamesfoundry.com/collections/late-16th-century-1560-1610?page=2
Eureka makes some Portuguese Conquistadors which can add to your forces (particularly as umpaid, veteran Spanish troops who, as the campaign raged on, could become very raggedy - but avoid crossbowmen figures, which would be obsolete by this time), and as sailors for either side; The Spanish Conquistador armored cavalry and petronels are also useful:
https://eurekaminusa.com/collections/conquistadores-28mm-portuguese
https://eurekaminusa.com/collections/conquistadores-28mm-spanish/products/100con11a
https://eurekaminusa.com/collections/conquistadores-28mm-spanish/products/100con19a
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If you want to do the Sea Beggars period, think Elizabethan costume. The Wargames Foundry "Seadogs and Swashbucklers" range are a good start (obviously steer clear of the longbowmen, meant to portray British troops of that same period). Also very useful are their late 16th century range (many of which can be used for either Spanish or Dutch troops).
https://www.wargamesfoundry.com/collections/seadogs-and-swashbucklers
https://www.wargamesfoundry.com/collections/late-16th-century-1560-1610
https://www.wargamesfoundry.com/collections/late-16th-century-1560-1610?page=2
Eureka makes some Portuguese Conquistadors which can add to your forces (particularly as umpaid, veteran Spanish troops who, as the campaign raged on, could become very raggedy - but avoid crossbowmen figures, which would be obsolete by this time), and as sailors for either side; The Spanish Conquistador armored cavalry and petronels are also useful:
https://eurekaminusa.com/collections/conquistadores-28mm-portuguese
https://eurekaminusa.com/collections/conquistadores-28mm-spanish/products/100con11a
https://eurekaminusa.com/collections/conquistadores-28mm-spanish/products/100con19a
I agree on the above except for:
unless playing early war better avoid lancers. The first ones probably looked more like knights and the latter ones had pistols instead of lances, because lances could not defeat armour anymore later on in the war.
Early war dutch were a mixed bunch of troop types all together, they were armed by local towns and cities anyway they could afford and provide it (different size weapons, gun calibres, etc.) the Portuguese troops are indeed perfect for that. Later in the war the armour and weaponry became standardised and production of them as well. Later dutch troops in the war looked definitly more standardised. Thirty Year War troops would be perfect for that.
https://www.wargamesfoundry.com/collections/thirty-years-war
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If you want to do Sea Beggars period, then Thirty Years War style of clothing is too late for that (it is suitable for the later phase of the war though, which coincides with the 30 Yrs War) (But Elizabethan dress is fine for the Sea Beggars period - the 1560's and 70's in particular). Lancers are used during that time frame (in comparatively small numbers) by both the Spanish and Dutch (and their English allies), and would look similar to Elizabethan English demilancers (i.e. probably not armored below the knee; no one would have gendarmes). German Reiters also make their appearance fighting for the Protestants. The Osprey Armada book gives a good representation of Spanish troops who would have been in the Netherlands (often more ragged though) https://i.pinimg.com/236x/23/8f/90/238f90043fdc35b9e35c1e4e9f7b8534--spanish-armada-conquistador.jpg, https://i.pinimg.com/736x/12/65/cb/1265cb955f651190e47227742923e540--spanish-armada-conquistador.jpg
and many of the English professional soldiers would have been employed in British allied forces. https://i.pinimg.com/736x/ae/48/e9/ae48e9d957867a6d06543f2c22711f84--military-history-spanish-armada.jpg
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/a9/97/7a/a9977a14c4518d48815c24b33ab29f1f.jpg
Here's a contemporary picture of the 1568 execution of the counts de Egmont and Hoorn, showing Spanish troops of that time period:
https://c7.alamy.com/compes/f955fj/ochenta-anos-o-la-guerra-de-la-independencia-1568-1648-neerlandes-la-ejecucion-de-los-condes-de-egmond-y-hoorn-bruselas-1568-paises-bajos-grabado-coloreada-f955fj.jpg
Here's a Ron Embleton picture of the death of Sir Philip Sidney at the Battle of Zutphen 1586 (Sidney had led a British expeditionary force to help the Dutch; he was in such a hurry to get into the fight, that he neglected to put on his thigh armor - he was wounded by a musket shot that shattered his thigh, and died 22 days later of infection). He had with him
http://paintingandframe.com/prints/ron_embleton_sir_philip_sidney_at_the_battle_of_zutphen-588.html
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I can also suggest the the HokaHey (ex Monolith) line of Border Reivers might be of some use for the period. I also use the old citadel Estalians (if you can get a hold of them) and GAmezone imperials as Spanish. There is also the Arsenal/Warlord Wars of Religion line.
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in the 80 years war you'll find more or less everything.
in the 1570's you can have Scottish cavalry (armed in the fashion of their country so border reivers ? )
a polish guard for Archduke Matthias, lots of Gendarmes (both French (the invasion of the Duke of Anjou) and local gendarmes (the Burgundian Compagnies d'ordonnance were active until the 1590's)
Local gendarmes were active both on the royal (even when present Spanish forces forced only a small part of the army) and the rebel (not all the rebels were Dutch)
Carl
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You could do worse than visit our 80-years War Facebook page made for our Dutch Miniatures Wargame Event last year.
A lot of it is in Dutch (obviously) bu Facebook translates reasonably well and the pictures are quite inspirational if I say so myself :D
https://www.facebook.com/groups/1814563208780624/ (https://www.facebook.com/groups/1814563208780624/)
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You could do worse than visit our 80-years War Facebook page made for our Dutch Miniatures Wargame Event last year.
A lot of it is in Dutch (obviously) bu Facebook translates reasonably well and the pictures are quite inspirational if I say so myself :D
https://www.facebook.com/groups/1814563208780624/ (https://www.facebook.com/groups/1814563208780624/)
I second this for sure.
Bouko regularly posts a "Friday Flag" with a little history on the unit. Excellent links, conversation and information on this excellent site.
Marjolein T'Hart's fabulous book on the Dutch Wars of Independence is a fascinating read. If you are lucky your library will have a copy:
https://www.bookdepository.com/Dutch-Wars-Independence-Marjolein-THart/9780582209671
I have gone a little later with my Dutch project - i.e. the 1630s to tie in with our group's ECW/TYW project for Baroque. Being able to use the available TYW ranges of figures has meant I have no excuses to impede progress (but am working on a few) :-)
As well as TAG you might want to have a look at Tercios Miniatures for some of the specialty figures. They have a beautiful selection of personalities:
https://terciosminiatures.com
Good luck with the project!
John
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a polish guard for Archduke Matthias
Polish guards?
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Thanks for all the replies and tips, very helpful! Mr. Postman arrived with my Osprey titles this friday, so I'm set up for a nice read over the weekend. Dutch facebook groups are fine, no translations required, so thanks for the link.
Currently contemplating what to do with basing...
I was intrigued by the proposed round multibasing strategy of one of the authors of The Pikeman's Lament. Being a single baser at heart, this seems to be a nice middleground between the two extremes. However, I'd like to be able to expand the single company for pikeman's lament into something like Pike and Shotte Brigade (if ever!), and I'm not sure round multi bases carry over well into that sort of game...
Any ideas? I was thinking of movement trays for round multibases to get them into line with the sort needed, but that might make the whole thing too bulky..
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Polish guards?
a text dating to 1579 talks about 300 Polish horsemen "POLACRES" led by a 'Crosbach' in the guard of Archduke MATTHIAS
Carl
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Matthias was Governor-General of the Netherlands 1578 to 1581 (invited to the Netherlands by the States-General of the rebellious provinces, who offered him the position.
The position was not recognized by his uncle, Philip II of Spain. Matthias continued as titular governor until the rebels declared full independence in 1581, at which point he returned home to Austria.) Given the time period, I wouldn't expect his Polish bodyguard to look like the full-blown Polish Hussars of the later 17th century so often pictured - and we have no indication that Matthias and his troops fought for or against the rebels before his return to Austria.
And below are a few more images of cavalry suitable for the 1570's and 80's. The first is a Dutch lancer, the next three are German Reiters. The next two are English infantry and cavalry from the Osprey on the Armada and could easily have seen service in the Dutch wars (although the English caliverman is more of a local militia man and troops with such outmoded equipment probably would not have served overseas). A Dutch pikeman of the late 16th century. And finally a selection of troops who could have served the Spanish side in the 1580 - 1600 period.
https://i.pinimg.com/736x/89/12/42/8912423c83d8f3e1e82a69342590c9b9--knights-templar-military-uniforms.jpg
https://i.pinimg.com/736x/77/ab/8c/77ab8cf7c71d07707221fe2e20ba66e3--military-photos-military-history.jpg
https://i.pinimg.com/736x/e1/b9/dc/e1b9dcb8fd00e68ccd1d1fd48a377b01.jpg
https://i.pinimg.com/736x/38/a5/e6/38a5e68b1eae30e69406b2a3a824258f--alonso-th-century.jpg
https://i.pinimg.com/736x/89/37/11/893711db48143b7db3494590374fcf1f--troops-armada.jpg
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/d2/94/b0/d294b04f4c95f982fae6391b8acbb3da.jpg
https://www.pinterest.com/pin/373587731570244864
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/0a/d4/e7/0ad4e7be84a5b10e4a836c560906fce6.jpg
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Would the TAG starterarmy: http://theassaultgroup.co.uk/product/dutch-rebellion-1606-1648-starter-army/ work for the period around 1588-1598 as well? Im intrigued by Maurice and his army reforms, that and the battle of Nieuwpoort. They're labeled as 1606 onwards, so I have my doubt...
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Ingmar, I wouldn't use them for the 1580's. Different clothing and armor styles. They have more in common with the 30 Yrs War (with which they are congruent).
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I thought as much. Guess I'll be waiting on next year's batch. Though I guess the Pluderhosen Landsknechts are ideal for the period.. lol
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I'm using TAG German and Swedish troops for a roughly 1590 onwards army. They seem to me to be close enough stylewise?
Baggy trousers, helmet types seem to be correct, muskets with rests, fully armoured pistol equipped cuirassiers (proper for after 1597), etc.
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Ingmar,
Warlord Games just released Gendarmes in their Wars of Religion range that would be perfect for the 1570's - 1580's if you wanted Dutch, Flemish or Spanish gendarmes of that period.
http://www.warlordgames.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/203011005-Wars-of-Religion-Mounted-Gendarmes-01.jpg
http://www.warlordgames.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/203011004-Wars-of-Religion-Mounted-Gendarme-Command-01.jpg
http://www.warlordgames.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/209911003-WoR-Mounted-Gendarme-Regiment.jpg
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Meh... I am almost certain to buy them even though I have use for them. :'( :D
ps. I think whoever is applying the tufts to the bases needs to mix it up a bit: the exact same number (4) on each base in nearly identical locations.
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the Warlord games gendarmes look ok but the open faced helmets were rare for gendarmes.
Warlord games Wallenstein life guard figures are a lot closer to contemporary illustrations of Gendarmes in the Low Countries
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The new Warlord Gendarme are better suited as Spanish Lancers and I agree, wallenstein's lifeguard would make excellent Gendarmes.
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They can also be used as English Demilances, who often wore burgonets and other open-faced helmets (and did serve in the Low Countries).
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I'm planning to use a few for a general's lifeguard in my TYW army. I much prefer the sculpts to those in Warlord's Wallenstein's lifeguard. I think, though, that I'll do a head swap on the figure in a morion.
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I have always been bothered by the placement of the holsters on the Warlords Wallenstein's Cavalry Lifeguard figures - they look nothing like any picture of 16th -17th century cavalry that I have ever seen depicted. Holsters were affixed to the saddle, and would be placed much higher up than these.
https://us-store.warlordgames.com/collections/thirty-years-war-1618-1648/products/wallenstein-s-lifeguard-command
Contrast them with these, for example:
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-sCXsElkEWzY/VhQOo9ksXBI/AAAAAAAAEMM/Na5m8qQavrI/s1600/19.jpg
https://i.pinimg.com/564x/72/a2/a5/72a2a51923c83b976830754ace53d3b1--spanish-armada-armature.jpg
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/8c/76/e9/8c76e92a19573127812d00349d1609f9.jpg
http://photobucket.com/gallery/user/Dstaberg/media/bWVkaWFJZDo5NDI4MzMyNQ==/?ref=
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Metternich: agreed. Are the holsters a separate casting? if so, it may just be a mistake by whoever assembled or painted them.
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http://photobucket.com/gallery/user/Dstaberg/media/bWVkaWFJZDo5NDI4MzMyNQ==/?ref=
This picture is most interesting: both holsters on the left side. Makes a lot of sense but I never thought about it.
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What an interesting picture - seen it several times before but clearly never looked at it properly till now! Thank you!
That looks like possibly 2 empty holsters and 2 full ones? If so the pistol tucked under the belt goes in one and maybe the Arquebus in the other (I’m guessing now of course)? Given the mounted Arquebusier was a mobile firing “platform” it all makes sense. (Reminds me a bit of Scots Covenant cavalry with pistols in holsters and in boots).
Makes you think about how most wargames rules misuse firepower cavalry (and the way they work with other cavalry types)? They were clearly quite effective as, if not, why go to all the cost equipping guys like this? Very thought provoking!
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And wheel lock pistols were a comparatively expensive piece of gear.
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The warlord cuirassiers would be perfect. The armour style of the 1580-1625 changed not much.
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The warlord cuirassiers would be perfect. The armour style of the 1580-1625 changed not much.
I think you might be right. Sebastiaen Vrancx (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sebastiaen_Vrancx)was a contemporary painter, specialising in battle scenes, and a lot of his paintings feature cuirassiers.
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7f/Sebastian_Vranck_%28circle%29_Battle_of_the_Forty.jpg)
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The armor style is perfect for the 1610 period and on. But not for the 1570's - 1580's (Helmets are different. And Reiter armor is less complete than Cuirassier). If you posit 1590's on, they probably will do.
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Thats right....for 1560-1580 they are bit to modern in style. But how to get 100% ? The old glory look not bad. Hope TAG make some for that period with some character like Alba, Schwendi , Anjou, Tavannes etc
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Would be great if TAG eventually did some Huguenot Millers?
Late C16th has so much to offer as a period (I think) but it needs more “in depth”ranges. Hopefully TAG will fill the gap (I’m sadly a bit wary of parting with my hard earned cash on Warlord figures based on previous experience).
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"Would be great if TAG eventually did some Huguenot Millers? "
And Reiters, who also served in just about every conflict of the period - along with the Landsknechts, the Universal Soldier.
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From the TAG website, dated July 11th 2017
But of course Landsknechts are only half the story of German mercenaries in the 16th Century, also used in equally large numbers were the rapacious Reiter.
Reiter, pistol armed horse men, appear at first as a kind of charging melee cavalry in the middle of the 16th Century; initially armed with boar spears and swords, they soon developed in to deep formations firing by rotation, and charging only when an enemy was weakened. We have to make the boar spear miniatures to cover our Tudors for 1544, who were one of the first to hire this new type of cavalry men, but we will also need at least two other packs with pistols, to represent the later formations, and a command. (4)
http://theassaultgroup.co.uk/long-war-plans-pt-2/ (http://theassaultgroup.co.uk/long-war-plans-pt-2/)
The full TAG plan for the Dutch and Spanish parts of the range can be found by clicking on the link below :
http://theassaultgroup.co.uk/long-war-plans/ (http://theassaultgroup.co.uk/long-war-plans/)
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Yep, had read that. Sadly, no Millers (yet) .... fingers crossed...
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Excellent news; so TAG will be meeting the needs of 16th century gamers ! Thanks for posting those links.
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I have no clue about this period but I love the aesthetics of the armour and clothing.
A novice question but are these ranges compatible time-wise with the Foundry swashbucklers?
I’ve gotten myself a couple of ospreys on the subject but the description of the clothing doesn’t go into to much detail and makes few distinctions from attire in the earlier part of the century, can anyone recommend some essential reading on this please?
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Foundry have a war of religion range ;)
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Yes, and as nice as it is, I was under the impression it’s an old school 25mm range and so not compatible with modern sculpts such as those by TAG or Warlord. Whereas the swashbucklers are later additions more in line with modern 28mm minis. Although I’m happy to be corrected if this is inaccurate.
I’m very much interested in TAGs new minis in pluderhosen but have little context to fashion of this period which is why reading material outlining this would be helpful. As I said I’m a total novice.
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Mr. J, the Wargames Foundry Seadogs and Swashbucklers are meant to be 1560's - 1580's, so they should fit nicely into that part of the Eighty Years War, representing militia, sailors, irregulars (or regulars in dire need of a clothing resupply - some Spanish troops were reportedly pretty ragged when they first arrived due to the privations of their long march up the "Spanish Road," and also after long periods of arrears of pay while in the field) individual adventurers and even some gentry. The bowman don't really work well for this, as the English wouldn't have brought such archaically equipped troops with them to the Lowlands.
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actually there are references to English bowmen in the Low Countries.
A 1577 description of the army the Earl of Leicester brought, gives 1000 calivers, 1000 archers, 4000 corselets (armoured ?) with pikes and 1000 billmen with cuirasses and morions for the infantry. 500 lancers and 500 light horse (armed in the normal fashion)
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I stand corrected sir ! I wonder what the Spanish troops thought about being on the receiving end of clothyard shafts. And yes, when the reference is to corselet pike it does mean with armor (in 16th century probably including tassets as well as cuirass).
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Dont forget Khursans range for the late 16th Century. The figures are fantastic, they have a great Spanish, Landsknect and English. Dutch, and French to come. Drop them an email to speed up the releases.
For books also see if you can find The Dutch Wars of Independence, Warfare and Commerce in the Netherlands 1570-1680 by Marjolein tHart.
William
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Yes, and as nice as it is, I was under the impression it’s an old school 25mm range and so not compatible with modern sculpts such as those by TAG or Warlord. Whereas the swashbucklers are later additions more in line with modern 28mm minis. Although I’m happy to be corrected if this is inaccurate.
The Foundry Wars of Religion range is old school 25mm, will work with Essex Miniatures ok. I’ve got a rather nicely painted army by Mark Allen of them and keep being tempted by the Dutch Wars.
Foundry’s swashbucklers are heroic 28mm, will work with the Hoka Hey (ex-Vendel) range of Border Reivers, which should suit this period as well. I’m painting through some of the latter for a 1588 game and I do have TAG as well, I’ll try and get a comparison photo together if that would help.
Edit: found I had them to hand, apart from the Essex:
(https://s19.postimg.cc/r81we6gnn/DA47_F59_F-_A083-409_A-_A877-5_FCAD3692_FE5.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/958tmyksv/)
LtoR. Foundry*-Foundry Swashbuckler-TAG-Foundry Wars of Religion- Hoka Hey- Hoka Hey-Foundry Swashbuckler
*I think that’s a later Foundry (Casting Room? although I recall buying it from the shop)
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I think that first figure is a Hoka Hey figure as well, rather than Foundry.
Thought you might appreciate a couple of the pics of the Swashbucklers used as block of pike and shot.
(https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-ZVysKgEZuo4/WpRVt2EXnMI/AAAAAAAAJG4/9L8OW2k4BK8vXGrrHXKYzJjjekjKQSB9wCKgBGAs/s640/20180204_105101.jpg)
(https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-Bk3FDJYseDc/WclAJ-O_7DI/AAAAAAAAHAo/AyRIX-LnJlULOBD7cpAnOrVPrLJceTWFwCKgBGAs/s640/20170924_153841.jpg)
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Oooops you’re right, I chose the wrong figure, the Foundry one is a similar pose but smaller. Have replaced the photo with the correct one.
Nice pike block. My attempts at late 16th C using those manufacturers here:
http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=93251.msg1151281#msg1151281
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Whiskey Priest and Levied Troops, a joy to see your troops.
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Whiskey Priest and Levied Troops, a joy to see your troops.
Yes I have both of your threads bookmarked for inspiration.
Thanks for the size comparisons also very useful!