Lead Adventure Forum
Other Stuff => Workbench => Topic started by: Silent Invader on May 18, 2018, 05:23:24 PM
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This thread has now become a record of the WIP. I’m a novice at mat making, so this isn’t advice just a record. ;) :)
Left this a bit late but tomorrow I’ll be caulking my terrain mat. :o
I’m actually using an oilcloth (tipped by Dr De’Ath) that is plastic on one side and polyester the other. The caulk will be going onto the polyester. It won’t be a big mat, just 140 x 80 and I want it to have a flat but sand-textured surface.
I’ve got:
Brown paintable acrylic caulk
PVA
Sharp sand (that will be sieved)
Latex gloves
Table clamps
I also have static grass etc to be added after the mat has been painted and dry brushed with emulsions.
I’ve read various techniques for applying the caulk
A) apply caulk to cloth then sprinkle on sand
B) mix caulk with PVA then apply to cloth and sprinkle on sand
C) mix caulk with PVA and sand then apply to cloth
I’ve seen B and C with paint in the mix as well but I have coloured caulk and will be painting it when cured.
Views on which gives the most level surface?
Any other suggestions?
Thanks in advance :)
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Any other suggestions?
Don't leave it so late next time? lol
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Don't leave it so late next time? lol
:D
Yeah, yeah, yeah lol
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Mix the Caulk with PVA to a spreadable consistency.
Apply with a pallet knife or suitable spreader and while wet sieve on the sand - work in small patches so that the mix doesn't dry out before the sand is added. You can leave a margin of un-sanded caulk/pva to blend in the next patch so you don't end up putting your spreading tool over the sanded mix
Mist the sand with water containing a few drops of washing up liquid. This step is important as it draws the PVA into the sand and helps it adhere to the caulk/pva mix.
Then let it dry before painting.
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please take photos of progress for a tutorial...I have an itch to do one of these
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Very interested to see this develop.
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Thanks all, especially Dr De’Ath
Yep I’ll update though Jeff965 recently made a snow-mat ‘how to’ that might be of interest.
https://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=108597.15 (https://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=108597.15)
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Having seen Dr De'Ath's excellent old west mat I'm keen to make one myself. Fleece or oilskin, what do you reckon would work best for an ash wastes type landscape?
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Having been through this a few times lately, my advice is to mix the sand in with the caulk. Gluing the sand on top of the caulk seems to result in a mat that is too thick and stiff, resulting in cracks. I haven't tried pressing sand into wet caulk yet, so maybe that will work. But that seems likely to result in thick areas at the seams.
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Having seen Dr De'Ath's excellent old west mat I'm keen to make one myself. Fleece or oilskin, what do you reckon would work best for an ash wastes type landscape?
I have no idea Steve so I’ll let others opine :D
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Having been through this a few times lately, my advice is to mix the sand in with the caulk. Gluing the sand on top of the caulk seems to result in a mat that is too thick and stiff, resulting in cracks. I haven't tried pressing sand into wet caulk yet, so maybe that will work. But that seems likely to result in thick areas at the seams.
Thanks very much - interesting advice that makes sense.
My concern with mixing the sand into the caulk (and PVA?) was that it might sink to the bottom of the pot, giving an uneven texture. That said, the dense caulk might discourage the sand from settling?
A lot of people use ‘gloop’ for texturing terrain boards and that seems to work so I’m probably over -thinking before committing to the task!! :D
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All now spread and I shall do a write up later :)
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This thread has now become a record of the WIP. I’m a novice at making mats, so this isn’t advice just a record. ;) :)
Terrain Mat to cover a table 1.4m x 0.8m
Materials:
1) 1m of 1.4m wide Vinyl Tablecloth (Taupe) from Suzie May Crafts of Walthamstow (eBay seller suzie-may-crafts-ltd, item no 311560671024) £5.95
(http://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/33/2031-190518150410-331942416.jpeg)
2) 2 x 300ml tubes of brown acrylic sealant (paintable) from Tool Station £1.46 each
3) Resin PVA (exterior & interior) clear-drying wood glue from Tool Station
(http://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/33/2031-190518150410-33203315.jpeg)
4) Sharp sand, sieved but slightly damp from the bag
Process:
The cloth had been folded for delivery and required steam pressing to eliminate the worst of the creasing. Ironed on the polyester side (actually the backing), the plastic will become tacky then melt if the heat is too high.
(http://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/33/2031-190518150410-332042360.jpeg)
The cloth was cut to the desired size and then clamped to the table top.
(http://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/33/2031-190518150410-332051787.jpeg)
Two small tears in an edge of the cloth were patched on the white polyester side, using a small piece of T-shirt cotton tacked in place with Bostik. When the Bostik had cured, and before being smeared with the mix, the patch was trimmed to fit.
(http://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/33/2031-230518195513-33322903.jpeg)
The mix comprised:
300ml cartridge of brown acrylic sealant
50ml of dilute exterior PVA (10% water)
150ml of sieved sharp sand (damp)
(http://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/33/2031-230518200853.jpeg)
The mix was applied with plastic spreading tools, with two lots of mix being required.
(http://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/33/2031-190518150452-3320757.jpeg)
The first mix covered about 2/3 of the cloth.
(http://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/33/2031-190518150452-332081970.jpeg)
(http://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/33/2031-190518150452-332091751.jpeg)
(http://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/33/2031-190518150452-33210356.jpeg)
There was some mix left over, which I put into an airtight pot for finishing off the clamp points idc.
It’ll now sit for about 36 hours before being painted (NB: the clamps will not be released until after it has been flocked).
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The mat was then left to dry in situ, in a reasonably warm room for approximately 36 hours.
As I want a level surface, once it was cured I picked-off any larger lumps that had sneaked through and brushed away the debris.
(http://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/33/2031-230518203902.jpeg)
Paints were B&Q Valspar interior matt 236ml tester pots colour-matched (quite closely) to swatches of Vallejo Model Colour:
1. Base Coat: German Camo Black Brown 70822
2. Heavy Dry Brush: Cork Brown 70843
3. Dry Brush: Iraqui Sand 70819
4. Light Dry Brush: Dark Sand 70847
While still clamped, a 25mm brush was used to paint on the Black Brown emulsion that provides the base coat. Care was taken not to stretch the fabric with over enthusiastic brushing. Care was also taken not to paint over the exposed white areas (around the clamping points) as in due course they will be made good by covering with the mix, which ideally needs to be applied directly to the mats polyester backing cloth.
After minimum 2 hours of drying time, the mat was heavily dry brushed with the Cork Brown emulsion.
After minimum 2 hours of drying time, the mat was dry brushed with the Iraqui Sand emulsion.
After minimum 2 hours of drying time, the mat was lightly dry brushed with the Dark Sand emulsion.
(http://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/33/2031-230518195513-333232255.jpeg)
The mat was then left overnight to dry.
(http://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/33/2031-230518195513-333241797.jpeg)
Flocking used my basing mix of:
1. 4 pinches of Javis Static Grass No.2 Summer Mix 2mm (JHG2)
3. 1 pinch of Woodland Scenics Coarse Grass Burnt Grass (T62)
4. 1 pinch of Woodland Scenics Coarse Grass Yellow Grass (T61)
However, when mixed as a larger quantity, I simply used 4 bags of the static grass to 1 each of the coarse grass.
The adhesive was brushed on and comprised approximately 90% of the clear-drying wood glue, mixed with 10% water and a few drops of Vallejo Model Air Mud Brown 71037. The flock mix was applied with the mat still clamped in place.
(http://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/33/2031-230518195513-333251604.jpeg)
The flock mix was applied generously and then gently patted down.
(http://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/33/2031-230518195513-333262210.jpeg)
The scatter distribution is intended to give me the option of a track: if it works I’ll be able to line it with buildings for a reasonably clean track, or cover it with the occasional loose terrain item to blend into the surrounding grassland.
(http://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/33/2031-230518195632-333272465.jpeg)
The mat was then left overnight.
I used approximately 6 bags of static grass and 1 1/2 bags each of the coarse grass. With the mat still clamped, the excess was brushed off (25cm brush) and collected to be put towards other terrain items: about 1/3 of what had been scattered remained glued to the mat.
(http://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/33/2031-230518195632-333281543.jpeg)
(http://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/33/2031-230518195633-333291768.jpeg)
The mat was then shaken outside.
What the oilcloth hasn’t given is a perfectly flat mat. Where the material was folded for delivery it stretched, and stayed stretched. Ironing eliminated the crease but not the stretch. The upshot is ripples.
(http://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/33/2031-230518195633-333312004.jpeg)
I quite like them on the flat surface as they add interest. Sometimes they flatten under loose terrain, sometimes they don’t.
(http://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/33/2031-230518195712-33332160.jpeg)
Next stage is to fill in the clamping points, which is a repeat of everything above starting with smearing the mix to the white polyester backing cloth.
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Really liking that Steve.
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Thanks for your feedback and the detailed process.
Your mat turn out very good.
Stupid newbie question : how do you plan to store it ? Can you roll it without deteriorating the surface of the mat ?
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Cheers Steve (Elk) :)
Stupid newbie question : how do you plan to store it ? Can you roll it without deteriorating the surface of the mat ?
Thanks TB and that’s certainly not a stupid question :)
It will be rolled, that’s for sure. How well it’ll stand up to that I don’t know. It’s something I’m about to address as I’m now at the stage where it needs to be putaway. I’ll write up what I decide to do sometime soon.
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That's very nicely done - I particularly like the subtelty of the track. It's there if needed for a scenario, but unobtrusive if not.
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Impressive. The texture makes it much more superior when compared to a printed mat. IMO that is.
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Thanks very much folks :)
Am nearly there with this but before the final write up here’s a staged ‘teaser’ of the mat laid out for Old West
(http://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/33/2031-240518120306.jpeg)
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Really well done and very inspiring! ;D
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Perfect 8) 8) I will use for my Martian terrain ;)
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Thank-you for posting this step by step tutorial. It will be very helpful if and when I decide to try something similar.
Mick
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Impressive. The texture makes it much more superior when compared to a printed mat. IMO that is.
No question about that.
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Top notch.
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Great looking Mat Steve, I'm going to use this method to upgrade my TSS tiles :)
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That is a great looking mat and a fine tutorial. :-* :-*
I am looking for a suitable terrain for the Indian Mutiny that isn't too deserty or too jungly :D and your colour scheme looks about right. It also saves space which is getting a little tight.
How do you find the rolling up and stsoring? Does the mat recover easily and does any of the material shed each time you do it?
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Very interesting tutorial, it will be interesting to see how the mat fares under the wear and tear of gaming . Perhaps an update in a few months time would be useful . I,d be inclined to fold it very loosely and store it on top of something in the garage , between games .
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Thanks for the various comments and questions.
Bit of a delay in the update due to other hobby distractions..... :)
The mat with clamping points filled in:
(http://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/33/2031-250518211424.jpeg)
Some more images of the mat with its Old West set-up:
(http://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/33/2031-250518211350-33349560.jpeg)
(http://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/33/2031-250518211350-333481342.jpeg)
(http://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/33/2031-250518211350-33347509.jpeg)
(http://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/33/2031-250518211350-333461246.jpeg)
Given that folding for delivery stretched the oilcloth at some of the creases, I’ve opted for rolling as my first go at storage.
It’s wrapped around a length of 40mm waste pipe and now sits on a level surface.
(http://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/33/2031-250518211350-333501761.jpeg)
Rolling might flatten out the turn-ups at some of the edges, which happened when I applied the flock mix to the clamping points.
The rolled mat in the tube weighs 1.6 kg (though it’s not huge, being only 140cm by 80cm).
As to how well it will stand up to storage and use, obviously time will tell. I plan to leave it rolled for a good week or so and will then see if it lays flat and doesn’t shed grass (I’m pretty confident about the latter but have no idea about the former).
At this stage I’m about 8-9/10. I had set out to make a level mat so in that respect the odd ripple is a fail (even though at times I quite like them, that they are there when I planned for them not to be still irks .... :D). The turn-ups are also a tad disappointing and without them, at this point it would be a solid 9.
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Turned out just right 8)
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Amazing. If you find the turned up edges not to your taste you can always send it to me :D
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Amazing. If you find the turned up edges not to your taste you can always send it to me :D
lol
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Super impressed and thanks for sharing your journey
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Very impressive! Thanks for the walkthrough too – this is one of those 'maybe one day' projects for me.
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You’re welcome folks. I’d documented it for myself anyways. :D
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Excellent job Steve, that mat has turned out really well. In my experience the turned up edges will flatten out over time, as will the bumps although they may take a little longer.
Just as good as a 2x2 board but with the added benefits of no joins and easier transportation.
Textured Mats are the future!
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Excellent job Steve, that mat has turned out really well. In my experience the turned up edges will flatten out over time, as will the bumps although they may take a little longer.
Just as good as a 2x2 board but with the added benefits of no joins and easier transportation.
Textured Mats are the future!
lol
Well I certainly wouldn’t have got this far without your early advice. :D
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To avoid the turnups, could you have left a 1" or so area untextured / painted around the edges, with the clamps over here, so you wouldn't need to redo the clamping points. Instead when dry you could trim this area off (or perhaps even leave it).
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That might have worked (or I might have just got a bigger turnup depending how it was done) but the mat was sized at 80cm to fit an 80Cm wide table and losing 5cm to margin was just too much for me to risk that experiment. All is not necessarily lost though, when I unroll the mat the turnups might well have disappeared. :)
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That’s looking very good, thanks for the walk-through as I’m going to try my own version this summer.
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What an excellent, informative tutorial!
Thanks very much Steve.
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It's turned out well Steve. I might have to try one ;) :D
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Great job and a much appreciated comprehensive staged report. Thanks mate.
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It looks very good. Thanks for the detailed play by play. I am still working up the courage to start on such a project myself. This sort of thing definately helps to stiffen up ones own courage.
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Thanks all.
The stage by stage wasn’t so much me being benevolent - I wanted a record for next time :D
Following other people’s progress definitely helps though (eg, see the winter mat made by Jeff)
It's turned out well Steve. I might have to try one ;) :D
I am shocked :D
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I'd already obtained some materials to give this a go; this thread has confirmed it and I started on mine last night. So thanks for the pics, the info and the explanations :)
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I'd already obtained some materials to give this a go; this thread has confirmed it and I started on mine last night. So thanks for the pics, the info and the explanations :)
You’re welcome and best of luck :)
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Could you do water effects on a mat using clear silicone?
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Could you do water effects on a mat using clear silicone?
As I said in the first post:
I’m a novice at mat making, so this isn’t advice just a record. ;) :)
I haven’t tried it and to be honest I don’t think I would. A caulk mat is a flat surface and I’m not keen on river levels that sit above rather than below the main surface. If I was going to use a river I’d use a fully textured tile. :)
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You can but I agree it needs to be non permanent. My answer is to cut out a river shape from basic material, caulk etc but silicone the water effect directly on , blending the river banks to match the remainder of the mat etc.
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It seemed too small a question to start a new topic, so I figured that a thread that drew in people interested in mats would be a good place :)
I didnt have rivers in mind, my idea was to leave a few caulk free areas on the fabric, paint those areas and then add silicone* to them, to create lakes or a swamp area.
*or some kind of clear caulk. I'm a novice with the caulk gun and the many products so I dont know how firm silicone gets when it hardens.
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That’s fine - ask away, no question is too small, just wanted to be clear that I’m not an expert but learning as I go along. :)
There’s acrylic caulk - which is used for the mat as it’s very flexible and takes paint - and silicone caulk (usually smells of ‘vinegar’) which I believe shrinks more, is less flexible and can’t be painted over (though it’s possible to colour it by mixing-in say thin paint before it’s spread). I believe that silicone caulk can also be stickier, which makes it harder to achieve a smooth surface with but ideal for choppy water (which I’ve used it for). Silicone caulk comes in clear but I’m not sure if acrylic does.
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Ooooops ! Thank heavens Sir for your timely post. I was just about to start my mat using silicone caulk......
I did try and check the nature of the caulk before purchase, but being a skinflint of the first order, the budget caulk I obtained was more than a little vague as to its true nature. Time to regroup and analyse.
Much obliged Sir,
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In the states, DAP makes a clear acrylic caulk, as well as a tan and a brown and, I think, a grey(?) (white?). So, I'd guess other locales have clear acrylic caulk.
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Great looking mat and the final flock/grass texturing is very well done.
Also check out Terrain Tutor on YouTube for his terrain lab video on acrylic caulk mats, he goes through all the materials get used and gets a bit scientific about how many layers us enough/too much etc. A very useful watch before you start to do a mat.
I had heard of caulk mats before but never seen them until the video, they are very good and remarkably cheap especially compared t a mousemat style gaming mat. Luckily for me the local gaming centre is large and well stocked with gear, but if I ever needed one for home it would definitely be on for making one.
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I've not been on the forum for a while so missed this but just wanted to say what a great step by step you've done.
I've done a caulked mat but am finding it shedding it's flock a little but I didn't add PVA to the caulk which might make the difference, also I just flocked it completely and so no paint binding it either, but I did use dilute PVA and hair spray as a final coat.
Your idea for the road has turned out well, I do believe you need a road through a town otherwise it looks a little strange, but your way means it can be used without the town.
Just a final note I came upon this guys blog
https://spudnick080.blogspot.com/2016/09/desert-mat-tutorial-and-thoughts.html?showComment=1526806696427#c831930275427970762
He's working with teddy bear fur which wouldn't work for placing buildings on it unless you cut specific areas out but he's using spray adhesive to fix the sand rather than caulk, which I think might be a good way forward.
And a final question, did the creases and lumps on the edge come out when you unrolled the mat?
I'm hoping to see your dessert and northern boards in the flesh later this year, and looking forward to that but I think textured mats are the way forward by eliminating the chequer board effect of tiles, at least for flat boards.
Well done with this.
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David aka Spudnik does some really good teddy bear fur clothes, he won the Historicon 2017 Best of Theme award
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Thanks Vagabond :)
Personally, I’m not a fan of teddy bear fur, thus the caulk and sand approach. I think it is something you like or something you don’t (it bothers me that mini bases don’t sit as flat as I’d like them to).
Regarding the lumps and creases, I haven’t actually laid the mat out again as I’ve been tied up with Osgiliath but I expect too soon.
:D
Edit:
Just to add, I’m still a big fan of tiles (despite the grid effect) because it’s possible to build some really detailed but versatile terrain that incorporates fall and rise in the way that a mat cannot. The mat will be great for laying out the town buildings but, for example, I’m not at all keen to put a river on top of it. Though each to their own, of course. ;)
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Im unsure of teddy bear fur in general but the desert mat is more stoney ground with clumps of grass on it, so figures will sit flush.
It was more the use of spray adhesive rather than caulk that I though of interest.
Rivers and roads, the perennial problem along with base or no base on buildings, if only there was a good solution. ::)
Osgiliath? I don't have to look at the fantasy board do I, will I turn into a goblin or orc if I do? lol lol
Keep up the good work.
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Ah right. I understand. :)
I’ve heard good reports of spray adhesive but in recent years I’ve had to avoid sprays (health issue) so it’s not something I’m ever likely to test. :'(
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Ah right. I understand. :)
I’ve heard good reports of spray adhesive but in recent years I’ve had to avoid sprays (health issue) so it’s not something I’m ever likely to test. :'(
I suppose glue sniffing is going to catch up with you eventually. o_o ::) :o :D :D :D
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I suppose glue sniffing is going to catch up with you eventually. o_o ::) :o :D :D :D
:D
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I played in a Carnage & Glory game today at Historicon, the table was covered with 1" insulation foam sheets and then hills paced on that.
Overlaid with a cloth it gave very good terrain undulations.
Trees have a pin in the base ans stick straight through the cloth into the foam.
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:)
Mats with contours beneath are popular but I’m not into the big games where such softer, flowing changes in terrain would make a difference (or could even be accommodated :D). As it happens, this mat - which uses a stiffer, vinyl backed oil cloth - will not gather and slump like a mat made from more flexible material such as a decorators cloth, and certainly not like a teddy bear fur mat, which is perhaps the most flexible type (being absent caulk and sand).
I’ve mentioned before but it bears repeating: this thread isn’t intended as a tutorial but is simply me documenting the steps so I can repeat (or vary) them when I make another. I’m certainly not promoting the caulked mat as the optimum terrain solution as what I’ve made is very specific to the type of games that I will play on it, the table area I have, my available storage space, the other terrain items that I’m making to use with it and, of course, my preferred aesthetic. For example, big games played out on the rolling vastness of the South African Veldt or Russian Steppes can look at their best with the ‘long grass’ and underlying structure that can be achieved with teddy bear fur. For such games, a caulked mat such as I’ve made here really would be sub-optimum.
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It’s just over a year since the mat was made and I’ve been asked some questions as to how well it’s fared.
The answer is - fine :D
I have heard that sometimes with a higher quotient of sand, cracking can occur but all appears fine.
(http://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/39/2031-230719144843.jpeg)
I can’t say why it hasn’t cracked but it might be because:
- it has a vinyl backing
- waterproof PVA was included in the mix with the caulk and the sand
- the surface had a thinned coat of waterproof PVA onto which the grass was scattered
- it is stored rolled on an approximately 4cm dia plastic pipe
- it is stored in a cool room out of sunlight
- or some, all or none of the above
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Good to know :)
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Thanks for the follow up, very helpful information :)
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I have a 12x5 mat i made using Acrylic Caulk with latex on a canvas dropsheet. No PVA, just some additional Latex paint. i mixed in the sand in the caulk and flocked immediately after.
its been 4 years and it has not cracked at all. i store it on a 5.5 foot 4" diameter Cardboard tube( the heavy duty kind that bulk newsprint comes on) I think the lack of folding is what keeps them from cracking.
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Apologies I seem to have missed that last post but thanks for the input. :)
For completeness, I’ve been making some changes/enhancements to the mat, which are covered here:
https://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=116169.msg1563601#msg1563601 (https://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=116169.msg1563601#msg1563601)
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For completeness, I have made further changes to the mat that are detailed here:
https://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=116169.msg1637437#msg1637437 (https://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=116169.msg1637437#msg1637437)
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Wonderful results. o_o
Pardon my froggy-ness (although I'm a Breton) but I'm still struggling to understand what all of you intend by "caulk" ...I believed it was a shipyard term, the stuff they put between planks in the hulls of wooden boats. ??? Do you mean the silicone or acrylic products they sell to seal joints in bathrooms etc?
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That’s exactly it!
Though a matte paintable decorators version rather than the super slick bathroom type