Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => Age of Myths, Gods and Empires => Topic started by: Argonor on June 14, 2018, 07:07:55 PM
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I am currently working on some ancient Greeks, and I am wondering what a unit standard could/would look like - and if they were used at all?
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Ancient Greeks didn’t carry standards I am afraid.
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I second that. I have painted hundreds and hundreds of Ancient Greek hoplites and visited different museums in Greece, searched any source that fell in my hands but I found nowhere an indication showing that they carried banners or standards.
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Hmmm... OK.
How did the Strategos signal his troops? Did he use runners to relay orders?
I'll have to make something up, then, as I need a standard for God of Battles; I plan to use the archers I am working in as part of a rainbow 'Thousand Tribes' army (and I may have to have one for Broken Legions as well).
I'll look to Roman and Carthaginian standards and mock something up, I think...
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They had musicians, but I don't know enough about the period to know if they were used for relaying orders or just to make a scary noise.
I've seen a few horn players available in various ranges. You could use one of those.
Edit: Or a vignette of a sacrifice being made prior to battle could stand in for a standard bearer figure. I've seen those for sale, too.
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I believe Greek heralds carried a sort of standard as a badge of office which some have incorporated into a command base. Might be worth looking into?
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Thanks for the suggestions - I shall have a look around for those heralds.
Musicians sadly are not an option, as they have a different role in the games I play, and the sacrifice idea is nice for big battles, but I also intend to use my Greeks for 1:1 skirmishes, and I think it would be a bit much of a demand on the suspension of belief to move such a scene around.
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I believe Greek heralds carried a sort of standard as a badge of office which some have incorporated into a command base. Might be worth looking into?
Greek heralds, κήρυκες, were considered sacred persons and were respected by both belligerent sides. Their sign of power was a special staff, the κηρύκειον.
Here, the finial of this staff.
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That is interesting, thank you!
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I'm afraid I'm leaving you with the impression that the herald could be a person relaying messages to other parts of the same army during battle. His job was to deliver a message to the enemy city. So, his function during the heat of an hoplite battle is irrelevant.
About the strategos now: The strategoi were leading their hoplites from the front, being one equal of them. So, I deem that their ability to relay messages during battle was limited. Their order would be probably transmitted from mouth to mouth along the line.
Besides this, the hoplite phalanx strategic plan was quite simple: Forward, in close order and crush the enemy with othismos.
https://sites.psu.edu/thehopliteexperience/the-othismos/
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Oh, yes, I did not think they were used in a battlefield-role, but thanks again!
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No standards for Greeks, I'm afraid. But you can have musicians and leaders. Spartans have that strange double trumpet thing.
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Always wondered what was the use of flute players in a Greek phalanx. With all the noise from the clanging of weapons and shields, shouts, and the hum of thousands of men moving at the same time, and with heads enclosed in bronze helmets, how could any flute player being heard by the men?
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No standards for Greeks, I'm afraid. But you can have musicians and leaders. Spartans have that strange double trumpet thing.
This
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Always wondered what was the use of flute players in a Greek phalanx. With all the noise from the clanging of weapons and shields, shouts, and the hum of thousands of men moving at the same time, and with heads enclosed in bronze helmets, how could any flute player being heard by the men?
The flute was played to give the step to the phalanx before the final clash. Before battle I deem that the helmet could be worn on the head with the visor up, like at the pictures. Of course, a closed helmet impaired the vision and the hearing, although you may find ancient greek helmets with some kind of ear opening.
The problem was solved with the adoption of the Theban/Thessalian/Alexandrian Macedonian helmet which had wider openings.
On the other side, let me remind you that the flute makes a piercing sound which can be heard from a distance and distinguished among other battle noises, don't forget that 16th-19th c infantry was using flutists alongside drummers on the field.
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On the other side, let me remind you that the flute makes a piercing sound which can be heard from a distance and distinguished among other battle noises, don't forget that 16th-19th c infantry was using flutists alongside drummers on the field.
Just think of a sports match with thousands of spectators making noise... lol
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Just think of a sports match with thousands of spectators making noise... lol
...and remember the fearsome vouvouzela stadium horns, when South Africa was hosting the 2010 FIFA Cup!
They covered the noise of the spectators, the voice of the sportscasters and everything else! lol
In any case, the flute was not meant to relay orders, but to give the step for marching.
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Diodoros describes a signal-ribbon tied to a spear (at Leuctra in 371):
Diodoros XV.52.5: "Though Epameinondas astounded the cautious by his forthright answer, a second omen appeared more unfavourable than the previous one. For as the grammateus advanced with a spear and a ribbon attached to it and signalled the orders from headquarters, a breeze came up and, as it happened, the ribbon was torn from the spear and wrapped itself around a slab that stood over a grave, and there were buried in this spot some Lacedaemonians and Peloponnesians who had died in the expedition under Agesilaus."
There's a reconostruction in the background at https://i.pinimg.com/originals/9a/bd/ce/9abdce045eb25f80bdf2bca55dfb98a9.jpg (https://i.pinimg.com/originals/9a/bd/ce/9abdce045eb25f80bdf2bca55dfb98a9.jpg)
Proper standards seem to come in only with the Macedonians - see https://bookandsword.com/2014/06/01/the-bronze-battle-scene-from-pergamon/ (https://bookandsword.com/2014/06/01/the-bronze-battle-scene-from-pergamon/), at the extreme left of the illustration.
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Diodoros describes a signal-ribbon tied to a spear (at Leuctra in 371):
Diodoros XV.52.5: "Though Epameinondas astounded the cautious by his forthright answer, a second omen appeared more unfavourable than the previous one. For as the grammateus advanced with a spear and a ribbon attached to it and signalled the orders from headquarters, a breeze came up and, as it happened, the ribbon was torn from the spear and wrapped itself around a slab that stood over a grave, and there were buried in this spot some Lacedaemonians and Peloponnesians who had died in the expedition under Agesilaus."
There's a reconostruction in the background at https://i.pinimg.com/originals/9a/bd/ce/9abdce045eb25f80bdf2bca55dfb98a9.jpg (https://i.pinimg.com/originals/9a/bd/ce/9abdce045eb25f80bdf2bca55dfb98a9.jpg)
Proper standards seem to come in only with the Macedonians - see https://bookandsword.com/2014/06/01/the-bronze-battle-scene-from-pergamon/ (https://bookandsword.com/2014/06/01/the-bronze-battle-scene-from-pergamon/), at the extreme left of the illustration.
I think I'll go with something like that, then!
Probably use a long wire spear and add some kind of strip to it.
Thank you!
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The double flute is called and aulos. It was played to accompany the paean. The paean was a battle song that the hoplites sang as they went into battle. It was to give them courage, set the marching step and scare the enemy (imagine 50,000+ men all singing it at once).
The general would set his battle plan before the battle and then lead the right most unit of the phalanx (the place of honor) from the front. Philip II and Alexander changed all this.
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The Spartans used a ritual object called the Dokana
(https://ellas2.files.wordpress.com/2013/05/dokana.jpg)
It symbolised the Dioskouroi, Kastor and Polydeukes (in latin Castor and Pollux) which were amoong the patron gods of Sparta. It is said that its depiction was also on the shields of the king's bodyguard.
Generaly they used flutes and loud voice. In archaic times the battle was very stylized. Just two phalanxes marching to each other in synaspismos (shield wall), then clash, push while spearing till one side gave way, the formation was broken, a small pursuit followed and the rest went home till next battle or warring season.
It was during the peloponnesian wars that new tactics was involved along with more complicated manouveurs. By that time more open type helmets were adopted, like the attic, thracian, boeotian or the plain spartan pylos.
The battle formations were usually just a main body and two wings. From Anabasis we see that they used messangers on horse to rely orders to the furthest parts of the formation. I guess this was the norm.
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I really enjoy all this info! 8)
I am also going to use flute-players, but for a specific purpose (I am going to use the Greeks in a fantasy setting as well as in historical games) I need to make or buy some standard-bearers (and as they are only being used for fantasy purposes, I think I can get away with using some of the Successor models from Aventine).
Thanks again, everybody!
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Not sure what scale you're working in, but Baueda make a dokana in 15mm - http://www.baueda.com/15dokana.html It's a lot bigger than Cap'n Harlock's picture suggests, though.
There's an academic article about the dokana here (https://archive.org/stream/jstor-497365/497365#page/n3/mode/2up).
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I'm doing 28mm - I am aiming firstly for a warband for Broken Legions, secondly for some units to use in A Fantastic SAGA (mayhaps also SAGA Ancients, if Studio Tomahawk get their act together), and God of Battles (and probably also other games I haven't thought of, yet.
I decided to push the archers forward, as I can use some of them for Broken Legions (to support my Hoplites & Heroes), and 12 of them instantly gives me both one point of Levy for SAGA purposes, and a unit for God of Battles (the latter needs a standard, thus this thread).
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You can make Dokana by yourself no big deal, its quite simple forms. A nice adition would be a lamb/goat sacrifice vignette.
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I improvised a number of philosophers for my Hellenic armies. They were quite fun to put together, and are a good way of checking if a new player was listening during the days of his or her education.
http://www.pendrakenforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,10744.0.html
I've subsequently added Plato, with a slave behind him holding up a wooden cutout showing a deformed rabbit, and a burning torch behind the slave to cast a shadow. Haven't got around to taking a photograph of that one.
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I improvised a number of philosophers for my Hellenic armies. They were quite fun to put together, and are a good way of checking if a new player was listening during the days of his or her education.
http://www.pendrakenforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,10744.0.html
I've subsequently added Plato, with a slave behind him holding up a wooden cutout showing a deformed rabbit, and a burning torch behind the slave to cast a shadow. Haven't got around to taking a photograph of that one.
Unfortunatelly the photos dont seem to appear. But the description is very promising.
You could do Socrates too. In two versions, one as heroic hoplite carrying the wounded Alcibiades, and one posed as a philosopher with his nagging wife Xanthippe close by, shouting at him ;D
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I have considered doing Socrates stretched out with an empty cup beside him. The ones I've got are Herakleitos checking up to his waist if you can cross the same river twice, Thales falling in, Archimedes shouting eureka! with a talk-bubble, Pythagoras holding a scroll with a triangle on it as he refuses to cross a beanfield, Diogenes in a barrel, and Epikuros researching whether pleasure is really the highest good with a pretty research assistant.