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Miniatures Adventure => Medieval Adventures => Topic started by: Cubs on August 09, 2018, 09:42:48 PM

Title: Looking for Rhys ap Thomas banners and badges
Post by: Cubs on August 09, 2018, 09:42:48 PM
I'm thinking of collecting a little force of Rhys ap Thomas (or his father Thomas ap Gruffydd) retainers for WOTR and wondered if anyone knows where I can get flags and badge transfers for him from? He's not one of the big boys (wasn't even a knight until Bosworth) and so his clobber is hard to buy.


I'm pretty sure his livery was just white and the badge a black crow or raven.
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/37/Coat_of_arms_of_Sir_Rhys_ap_Thomas%2C_KG.png)
Title: Re: Looking for Rhys ap Thomas banners and badges
Post by: Arlequín on August 10, 2018, 05:04:38 AM
AFAIK he used the raven/crow as a badge and white for livery, but only after he became a knight (as was usually the case I believe). Before that probably the livery and one of the badges of whomever he was retained or empowered by at any particular time.

Lord Scrope of Bolton's badge of a Cornish Chough is similar and probably easier to source, but you'd have to over-paint the legs and beak in black.

I've no experience with this, but isn't it possible to buy 'decal paper' and print your own?
Title: Re: Looking for Rhys ap Thomas banners and badges
Post by: Captain Blood on August 10, 2018, 07:45:29 AM
I'm thinking of collecting a little force of Rhys ap Thomas (or his father Thomas ap Gruffydd) retainers for WOTR

Nice. Great idea.

Just hand paint them Cubs. Piece of cake for a painter of your talents.  8)
Title: Re: Looking for Rhys ap Thomas banners and badges
Post by: OSHIROmodels on August 10, 2018, 07:57:54 AM
Citadel Six do custom decals if I remember correctly so that’s an option.
Title: Re: Looking for Rhys ap Thomas banners and badges
Post by: Romark on August 10, 2018, 08:00:49 AM
Pm sent :)
Title: Re: Looking for Rhys ap Thomas banners and badges
Post by: Stuart on August 10, 2018, 02:55:07 PM
Funnily enough I’m currently working on his unit for the early Tudor period. Pete’s flags have his standard;

Title: Re: Looking for Rhys ap Thomas banners and badges
Post by: Cubs on August 10, 2018, 04:57:41 PM
Thanks guys, a lot of good ideas for me to mull over (except for the hand painting thing, which sounds like a lot of bother).

AFAIK he used the raven/crow as a badge and white for livery, but only after he became a knight (as was usually the case I believe). Before that probably the livery and one of the badges of whomever he was retained or empowered by at any particular time.

This is bothering me. I want to raise a smallish force based on South Wales forces, but I don't know whose livery they would have worn and when. I know Rhys ap Thomas raised a large force from Wales for Henry before Bosworth, so presumably was a member of the nobility (or family of) if not a knight, and was a veteran by then having fought several times before that as a young man. But did he raise his own men under his own banner (or his father?) or was he fighting for someone else? I might just say that in my world he is and stop worrying too much. The good thing about the Welsh forces is you can have them swapping sides quite merrily without swaying too much from history!
Title: Re: Looking for Rhys ap Thomas banners and badges
Post by: Captain Blood on August 10, 2018, 05:13:36 PM
Did you recommend this to me? (Someone here did). It's basically the Rhys ap Thomas story. Tells you pretty much everything you need to know about him IIRC...

(http://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/34/577-100818181125.jpeg)
Title: Re: Looking for Rhys ap Thomas banners and badges
Post by: Stuart on August 10, 2018, 06:51:41 PM
I second the book recommendation, a veritable Portrait of South Wales in the late 15 and early 16c
Title: Re: Looking for Rhys ap Thomas banners and badges
Post by: Cubs on August 10, 2018, 06:54:55 PM
Did you recommend this to me? (Someone here did). It's basically the Rhys ap Thomas story. Tells you pretty much everything you need to know about him IIRC...

(http://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/34/577-100818181125.jpeg)

Then that baby is on the list! I'm gonna be all over that like me on a kebab.
Title: Re: Looking for Rhys ap Thomas banners and badges
Post by: Arlequín on August 10, 2018, 07:08:50 PM
This is bothering me.

And well it might. Truth is we can never be 100% that he wasn't raising men under his own badge and livery before he was legally able. Almost all the attempts to limit 'livery and maintenance', from Henry V onwards, concentrated on 'illegal retaining'; that is to say retaining folk who weren't resident in your household, or who weren't paid an 'annuity' (regular retainer). It was rife and was only suppressed when it was not done in the interest of the king.

Rhys raised his men after Henry Tudor landed. The time between the landing and Bosworth was fifteen days, which doesn't bode well for making livery jackets, issuing them and marching time. However if Rhys was calling up family, friends and 'well-wishers' from an existing affinity within Mid-Wales, then it is likely that livery coats et al, may have been kept in readiness for just such an occasion; an example of illegal retaining in other words.

I'd pick the scenario above that suits your fancy and I'd imagine anyone would be hard pushed to prove you wrong either way. The force he raised is usually said to have been 500 strong, a reasonable force for most knights or lords to raise, but pretty incredible to raise and have moving in such a short time. That suggests pre-planning and supports the idea that his force was waiting in readiness for the call, probably with livery jackets ready for issue.

Whether it was his livery, Pembroke's or Tudor's is another question, but his own livery is less likely to warrant a beheading if plans went awry. He might put his hands up to illegal retaining and pay a fine, but Tudor livery would be proof of treason without question.

Short version: I think you're probably safe with Rhys's livery, all things considered.  :)
 
Title: Re: Looking for Rhys ap Thomas banners and badges
Post by: Cubs on August 10, 2018, 07:42:40 PM

Whether it was his livery, Pembroke's or Tudor's is another question, but his own livery is less likely to warrant a beheading if plans went awry. He might put his hands up to illegal retaining and pay a fine, but Tudor livery would be proof of treason without question.

I was thinking about doing Herbert colours as well, just for fun.
Title: Re: Looking for Rhys ap Thomas banners and badges
Post by: Arlequín on August 10, 2018, 08:26:47 PM
I was thinking of Jasper Tudor as Pembroke, William Herbert was Earl of Huntingdon from 1479, but was still Chief Justice of South Wales, with a lot of land and a £1k annuity from Richard III for marrying his illegitimate daughter.

They're all a colourful lot though and certainly the Herberts were Richard III's guys down that way.
Title: Re: Looking for Rhys ap Thomas banners and badges
Post by: Cubs on August 10, 2018, 10:08:12 PM
This shit is why I hate WotR stuff - everyone's got 14 different names (but only 4 first names to share amongst all the men - William, Richard, Edward or Henry) and they keep getting swapped about!
Title: Re: Looking for Rhys ap Thomas banners and badges
Post by: Arlequín on August 10, 2018, 11:58:23 PM
Tell me about it, iirc there were three Humphrey Staffords and two William Stanleys at one point. Keeps you on your toes though, forget Sudoku.  ;)
Title: Re: Looking for Rhys ap Thomas banners and badges
Post by: Harry von Fleischmann on August 12, 2018, 10:21:14 AM
This will look like a typical WOTR retinue or are you adding anything to indicate Welshness? As these are retainers not levies, I presume not? I’m curious as I’ve had similar ideas in the past.
Title: Re: Looking for Rhys ap Thomas banners and badges
Post by: Cubs on August 12, 2018, 10:25:32 AM
This will look like a typical WOTR retinue or are you adding anything to indicate Welshness? As these are retainers not levies, I presume not? I’m curious as I’ve had similar ideas in the past.

I'm thinking more lightly armoured archers and foot men at arms with bills, and fewer heavily armoured knights foot and mounted. Other than that … pretty standard sort of retinue.   
Title: Re: Looking for Rhys ap Thomas banners and badges
Post by: Arlequín on August 12, 2018, 02:43:51 PM
If it's of any help, for service in France in 1493, Sir Walter Herbert raised; one man at arms (himself), along with his custrell (lesser man at arms) and page, twenty-four demi-lances, twenty mounted and forty foot archers, and forty billes on foot. This was a wholly volunteer body recruited in addition to Herbert's own household and retainers (which was what I couldn't say with complete certainty). 

What is special here, is that out of all similar records of the same 'cohort' of retinues, only Herbert's and a few others have a significant number of billmen relative to the numbers of archers (3:2, 3:1 ish mostly), the rest have them in ratios like 10:1 or less, or some even have none at all.
Title: Re: Looking for Rhys ap Thomas banners and badges
Post by: Charlie_ on August 12, 2018, 05:09:47 PM
And isn't there reference to 'Welsh bills' somewhere?

Should we assume Welsh contingents would be more likely to have notable numbers of billmen, rather than just archers and men-at-arms?

Also, what do you think the difference is between a 'custrell' and a 'demi-lancer'? I'd read both of them as 'lesser men at arms'.... Armour and horse, capable of fighting as both heavy infantry and cavalry, but not as fully kitted out as a 'true' man-at-arms.
Title: Re: Looking for Rhys ap Thomas banners and badges
Post by: Harry von Fleischmann on August 12, 2018, 05:34:29 PM
I’m curious at the higher proportion of bill armed welsh. Does this reflect some kind of a shift away from the long bow post Glyndwr? Some form of disarmament policy? So that when welsh troops were needed, there wasn’t the pool of trained archers to draw on?

Idle thoughts of someone with little real knowledge.

I’ve also found I have a few spare figures and may follow Cubs’ lead here - where is that Rhys ap Thomas flag available from?
Title: Re: Looking for Rhys ap Thomas banners and badges
Post by: Cubs on August 12, 2018, 06:26:29 PM
I don't know if the 'Welsh' bill was more common in Wales, or if it just acquired the name somehow, but I think it was basically a pole arm with more snaggy-looking spikes and hooks rather than the heavy cutting blade. I guess it was more effective against mounted men, which would be handy if we assume that Welsh retinues had fewer mounted knights and armoured men at arms.

Which kind of leads me to the 'additional billmen' thing. The way I read it, the billmen were there in lieu of better trained or equipped fighting men. So they're not replacing archers so much as they're replacing plate armoured men at arms or mounted knights. I've always regarded billmen (perhaps wrongly) as largely being made up of farmers, smiths and woodsmen who would be comfortable and effective with a big chopping tool, but who aren't trained fighters as such.
Title: Re: Looking for Rhys ap Thomas banners and badges
Post by: Cubs on August 12, 2018, 06:31:08 PM
Here we go, a Welsh bill.

(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/02/c0/a4/02c0a4dca8ee840656ca96f520ce7c38.jpg)
Title: Re: Looking for Rhys ap Thomas banners and badges
Post by: Captain Blood on August 12, 2018, 06:34:32 PM
My (entirely fanciful) WoTR Welsh contribution from a few years back...  :)

Doesn’t help much, but any excuse  :D

(http://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/9/577_05_12_11_2_42_05_0.jpg)
Title: Re: Looking for Rhys ap Thomas banners and badges
Post by: Harry von Fleischmann on August 12, 2018, 06:45:49 PM
Here we go, a Welsh bill.

(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/02/c0/a4/02c0a4dca8ee840656ca96f520ce7c38.jpg)

Ahah. That makes sense; so the archers were at the usual proportions but the billmen were making up the numbers as it were.

Title: Re: Looking for Rhys ap Thomas banners and badges
Post by: Cubs on August 12, 2018, 06:47:52 PM
Niiice.

Harry - I think so, but that's just guesswork really. It's also cheaper to have billmen rather than knights, men at arms, or even the comparatively well paid archers. So maybe it was a money thing, since we've rarely had money to spare in Wales!
Title: Re: Looking for Rhys ap Thomas banners and badges
Post by: Charlie_ on August 12, 2018, 06:52:54 PM
But then what happens when a 'lesser' man at arms is armed with a bill, or a halberd or something similar (rather than the more knightly poleaxe). Would we call him a billman or not?
And I'm sure the archers wouldn't be averse to handling a bill or other polearm.

So even if there are no 'billmen' as they appear in the records, there will probably still be bills hanging around, wielded by both archers and lesser men at arms.
Title: Re: Looking for Rhys ap Thomas banners and badges
Post by: rivers3162 on August 12, 2018, 06:57:08 PM
Not sure if it’s any use to you but Rhys ap Thomas’ heraldic flag is available from Freezywater - sheet WRF23.
Title: Re: Looking for Rhys ap Thomas banners and badges
Post by: Harry von Fleischmann on August 12, 2018, 07:12:12 PM
Thank you Rivers!

I think cost may have been a factor as I remember reading that tax receipts were down massively in Wales in the 15th - the usual excuse being damage to the economy during the Glyndwr rebellion. So presuming that was true and even if it concealed the traditional tax minimisation, it’s a fair bet that the resources simply weren’t there.

As to how you’d treat these welsh bills, I’d imagine that they’d suffer in a toe to toe fight vs men at arms but if the ground was broken or they broke into the men at arms and things got a bit fluid then, well, look at Richard III?
Title: Re: Looking for Rhys ap Thomas banners and badges
Post by: Cubs on August 12, 2018, 07:35:36 PM
But then what happens when a 'lesser' man at arms is armed with a bill, or a halberd or something similar (rather than the more knightly poleaxe). Would we call him a billman or not?
And I'm sure the archers wouldn't be averse to handling a bill or other polearm.

So even if there are no 'billmen' as they appear in the records, there will probably still be bills hanging around, wielded by both archers and lesser men at arms.

Well exactly. The term 'bill' or 'billman' was no doubt an administrative term for the purposes of book keeping more than an exact and exclusive description of armament. It could simply be this was how many pole weapons that particular lord had paid for to arm an ill-equipped but sturdy recruit, thus fixing their (low) rate of pay and how they were used in battle under a particular captain.
Title: Re: Looking for Rhys ap Thomas banners and badges
Post by: Charlie_ on August 12, 2018, 07:41:39 PM
Well exactly. The term 'bill' or 'billman' was no doubt an administrative term for the purposes of book keeping more than an exact and exclusive description of armament. It could simply be this was how many pole weapons that particular lord had paid for to arm an ill-equipped but sturdy recruit, thus fixing their (low) rate of pay and how they were used in battle under a particular captain.

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.

Due to the supposedly huge ratio of archers to men at arms all the records give us (in particular in the last few years of the HYW), I think it's inconceivable to think that these 'archers' weren't also equipped for close quarter fighting, and I mean better equipped than just a sword and buckler. So I think there would be loads of bills and other polearms on the battlefield, wielded by archers and less well equipped men-at-arms. The term 'billman' could be given to less experienced recruits who can't shoot a bow and need equipping (and couldn't be termed either archer or man-at-arms). Bills would have been cheap yet effective, so when such recruits did appear, the term 'billman' would be used on the records.
Title: Re: Looking for Rhys ap Thomas banners and badges
Post by: Arlequín on August 12, 2018, 07:57:50 PM
Wow you guys have been busy.  :o

Okay a Welsh Bill, aka a Welsh Hook looks something like this.

(https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-vGXPFJKzpHw/W3CEqTd7bnI/AAAAAAAAJWs/tIshryZ_A-QPxvGiHcrCahw9r0EJd8gQgCLcBGAs/s320/welsh%2Bhook.jpg)

Some might have had longer spikes to the fore, but essentially it is just another regional variation on the common billhook, alongside; black bills, white bills, hedging bills and similar named items. Nothing fancy and designed to be made quickly in quantity with little effort.

The difference between custrells and demi-lancers is hard to pin down. Demi-lancer was a new term in 1492 and I'm not aware it was used earlier. Way back when, all of them were lumped into what we call 'men at arms', as the differences between degrees of armour was not as wide.

By the Late 15th Century, the men at arms, or 'Gens d'Armes', were in armour top to toe and it was very expensive. The custrell was also outfitted by the man at arms and was comparable to the coustilier, coutilier, or valet de guerre, on the continent. What we can be sure of is that he accompanied the man at arms into battle, foot or mounted, but he was an attendant.

The demi-lancers were the bargain basement of the old-style men at arms, not in full armour and paid at the same rate as the light horsemen, 'scourers' and 'prickers' in past times (9d). Gentry and well-off yeomen certainly, but not wealthy enough to go the full distance as regards kit and probably mount. Social status was perhaps the only difference between them and the custrells.

As Cubs points out, Wales was poor and in an age where you had what the law said you must, Jones the Labourer mostly made do with a bill or pointy stick, Jones the small holder could however run to a bow and arrows however and Jones the Farmer owned a horse. Society was a pyramid, so there were far more bills and pointy sticks than bows everywhere.

Not everyone wanted to be a soldier and go to France and rates of pay had been stagnant for a long time. Archers, both foot and mounted (and billmen) were paid 6d in 1493, the same as foot archers at Agincourt. Such a wage would only attract men who could only earn below it, which ruled out a lot of archers. The situation was different in England, which had many more poorer archers than Wales.

So Herbert then, beat the drum round Brecon and recruited the best of who came, half of the footmen being poor men with bills (or who Herbert gave bills to), seeking better wages and maybe some booty in France. Similar things occurred in parts of England that were traditionally poor, but they could afford to turn away billmen for the most part; there was a surfeit of poor men who could handle a bow.

One oddity were the twenty 'halberdiers' raised by the Viscount Welles, along with three times as many archers, but no bills. It is difficult to say whether they were just billmen with a fancy name, or that Welles had actually recruited some kind of honour guard in imitation of the King's Yeomen, or the French Royal Guard. I suspect the former. 

The final point I'd make is that it had become common by the second half of the century to have stores of weapons and armour available to equip men you raised, as seemingly so many men had nothing at all. There were archers who didn't own bows, even billmen who had no bill, but you wouldn't waste a bow on someone who could not shoot it.   
Title: Re: Looking for Rhys ap Thomas banners and badges
Post by: Charlie_ on August 12, 2018, 10:11:55 PM
Wow you guys have been busy.  :o

Okay a Welsh Bill, aka a Welsh Hook looks something like this.

Some might have had longer spikes to the fore, but essentially it is just another regional variation on the common billhook, alongside; black bills, white bills, hedging bills and similar named items. Nothing fancy and designed to be made quickly in quantity with little effort.

I've actually  not seen that shape of polearm before.... Interesting.

(I think when it comes to polearms, we shouldn't get too bogged down in the details and what each one was called. I think surely all the 'common' polearms would be seen mixed up together, and the names given to each different sort are more or less interchangeable. I mean we all know what a halberd is, or at least the classic late 15th century halberd shape.... And we all know a bill featured some sort of hook. But what about a guisarne? A voulge? A fauchard? I just throw them all together, mix them up, and call them 'polearms'.
Sure, there would be national favourites. I don't doubt that the Swiss favoured the halberd, and the English apparently liked the more hook-based 'bills'.... But I think if you spoke to a 15th century soldier, he'd just use the term he was most familiar with to refer to them all.)

Quote
The demi-lancers were the bargain basement of the old-style men at arms, not in full armour and paid at the same rate as the light horsemen, 'scourers' and 'prickers' in past times (9d). Gentry and well-off yeomen certainly, but not wealthy enough to go the full distance as regards kit and probably mount. Social status was perhaps the only difference between them and the custrells.

That's interesting. Was 'demi-lancer' a term used universally across Europe in this era?


Quote
One oddity were the twenty 'halberdiers' raised by the Viscount Welles ... It is difficult to say whether they were just billmen with a fancy name ...

That sounds the most likely to me. Billmen, halberdiers, all the same I'd say...
Title: Re: Looking for Rhys ap Thomas banners and badges
Post by: Arlequín on August 12, 2018, 11:45:43 PM
Demi-lancer is a term more commonly found in the 16th Century, I was surprised to see it used so early, but I guess you have to start using new words at some point. The rather vague 'horsemen' is used in Norfolk's household accounts pre-1485 too.

Although much older terms, glaive or guisarme are sometimes used interchangeably with bill around this time, in the same way as spear and lance are, so sure there appears to be no real difference. In an offhand way I suspect both terms are used to describe all polearms, including spears. So twenty men with guisarmes or bills means assorted long weapons.

There were fundamental differences between such weapons though, if only in terms of price. It was an inventory from Calais that provided 'black bills' and 'white bills' iirc, the latter being considerably more expensive, so I expect they were steel and the others iron. Richard III was conscripting smiths to make 'Welsh Bills' before Bosworth. A couple of years on Lord Stanley is forbidding smiths in Congleton to make Forest Bills. As you say though, distinguishing between them all is a touch too much granularity I think.

I'm also curious what happened to the 1,200 pikes supplied to 'the English king' by Burgundy in 1483, we typically associate Henry VIII as being the guy who introduced them. What is seemingly becoming apparent, is that the armies of 1455 were somewhat different to those of 1485, which seem more in-line with those of Henry VIII than Henry V.
Title: Re: Looking for Rhys ap Thomas banners and badges
Post by: Cubs on August 13, 2018, 09:19:18 AM

I'm also curious what happened to the 1,200 pikes supplied to 'the English king' by Burgundy in 1483, we typically associate Henry VIII as being the guy who introduced them.

When I read this I heard Captain Mainwaring's voice saying, "Don't sell him, pikes!"
Title: Re: Looking for Rhys ap Thomas banners and badges
Post by: Arlequín on August 13, 2018, 02:47:56 PM
 lol

I imagine that was the thoughts of the Lancastrian Exile Court too.  ;)
Title: Re: Looking for Rhys ap Thomas banners and badges
Post by: Cubs on September 07, 2018, 10:17:54 PM
Now, after doing some more poking, I have found that this first image with the longer, slender blades seems to be labelled as a Welsh Bill/Hook in a few different sites (including the Royal Armouries), whereas the second more practical looking fellow I can only find in that one place. So were they different weapons after all? Sure, they're all bladed pole arms, so no real difference as such, but are we looking at two distinctly different styles?

One thing I will say is that all the examples I have found seem a little later than WOTR, so perhaps that's an evolution of the beast into two different styles during the Tudor era. Or maybe these were two distinct shapes found within Wales that weren't used over the border? Either way, they should make for some fun conversions.

Here we go, a Welsh bill.

(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/02/c0/a4/02c0a4dca8ee840656ca96f520ce7c38.jpg)

Okay a Welsh Bill, aka a Welsh Hook looks something like this.

(https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-vGXPFJKzpHw/W3CEqTd7bnI/AAAAAAAAJWs/tIshryZ_A-QPxvGiHcrCahw9r0EJd8gQgCLcBGAs/s320/welsh%2Bhook.jpg)


Oh, and I've just started reading the book about Rhys ap Thomas, and it seems his grandfather was using the raven device back in his day (not necessarily legally) whilst ostensibly working for absentee English titled lords, so I'm happy enough to his grandson still using the same design on his men.
Title: Re: Looking for Rhys ap Thomas banners and badges
Post by: Arlequín on September 08, 2018, 12:57:16 AM
If I didn't know better I'd be tempted to put the top ones down to SCA whimsy. However there is so much debate about what weapon was called what, we are unlikely to tie names to types. I wouldn't be surprised if a Medieval bloke might happily use glaive, hook, guisarme (or 'giserne') or 'bylle', for the same thing, as the fancy took him. My only objection to them is that they seem very elaborate for a weapon to be picked up and used by Joe Average of the time. 

When Richard III ordered 'Welsh Bills' in 1485, ordering the pressing of smiths to ensure they would be ready in time, I'd put my money on the simpler and more robust one I offered. Medieval prices were all about the man-hours taken to produce something, so I do wonder how many would go into each respective type and for a client in a hurry, which one could be churned out the quickest.

The weapons were also being made in England, for issue to 'militia' (levies is a little inaccurate), so 'Welsh Bill' was a recognised type across the country as a whole and not a regional speciality.

I'm loathe to say the Royal Armouries are wrong, but it has been known all the same and originally the 'Tower of London' called the same weapons 'guisarmes'; as you'll find in older books (e.g. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guisarme#/media/File%3ARecordofeuropean03lakiuoft_0158.jpg).

There's some illustrations of regional billhook types here: http://www.timelesstools.co.uk/cat_pages.htm, which may be illuminating. For all that though, they are all pretty much variations on a theme, apart from the hedging bills, which are very 'glaive-like'.
Title: Re: Looking for Rhys ap Thomas banners and badges
Post by: Cubs on September 08, 2018, 08:34:42 AM
Ah, I'm going round in circles with this nonsense now. I think I'll do a bit of both because I like the idea of the fun of it and flick peanuts at anyone who argues.
Title: Re: Looking for Rhys ap Thomas banners and badges
Post by: Arlequín on September 09, 2018, 11:22:45 PM
A coincidence perhaps, but Pete of 'Pete's Flags' has just done Rhys ap Thomas.  :)

http://thegreatitalianwars.blogspot.com/2018/08/sir-rys-ap-thomas.html
Title: Re: Looking for Rhys ap Thomas banners and badges
Post by: Cubs on September 10, 2018, 09:02:58 AM
Wow, thanks for that, most convenient. Reading the book recommended as well, it seems Rhys ap Thomas was a dab hand with the light cavalry. Looks like plenty of demi-lances then.
Title: Re: Looking for Rhys ap Thomas banners and badges
Post by: Arlequín on September 11, 2018, 02:25:32 AM
Him, John Grey Lord Powis, George Stanley Lord Strange and Sir John Savage, were noted cavalry leaders from Wales and the Marches in the late 15th - Early 16th Century.

Demilancers were only 'light cavalry' in the sense that they weren't men at arms in full armour. Scots Border 'prickers', 'staves', 'hobblers' and possibly Welsh 'marchogs', were the closest thing to light cavalry of the time. 'Light cavalry' would have been an alien concept though; 'mounted raiders from the badlands' would probably be better understood as a concept back then.

A later illustrative comparison between demilances and men at arms would be Cromwell's Ironsides and Haselrig's Lobsters in the ECW. The Ironsides patrolled and foraged, but dragoons were the closest thing to light cavalry and not that unlike the earlier Border Horse all things considered.
Title: Re: Looking for Rhys ap Thomas banners and badges
Post by: Cubs on September 11, 2018, 04:28:07 PM
I think he had a mix of mounted infantry and cavalry (of various sorts), reading between the lines. There's certainly mention of his cavalry at Bosworth, standing near Henry Tudor (this would presumably be men-at-arms as opposed to light cavalry given their usage). Then in a letter written by his grandson, he petitions Henry VIII to have lands restored to the family, and mentions the 1,800 horsemen Rhys had brought to Bosworth. There's no way all those were cavalry, and it sounds about the same figure given as those Rhys had raised in Wales to accompany the French mercenaries Henry had brought.
Title: Re: Looking for Rhys ap Thomas banners and badges
Post by: Arlequín on September 11, 2018, 06:47:18 PM
It depends what you're terming 'cavalry' and 'mounted infantry'. A fair proportion of mounted archers were skilled horsemen, some switching from being archers to men at arms, and in some cases back again, over consecutive years. Some earlier men at arms were paid as 'foot men at arms', despite having horses, so presumably their mounts were only fit for transport. Many 'foot archers' were mounted too, but not paid as mounted archers, so the same was probably true of them.

If Rhys was being thanked for horsemen though, I'd wager they were fit for mounted action, regardless of the role they played when push came to shove. They were multi-purpose and defy our attempts to pigeonhole them according to our categories. Simply put, if a man was adequately horses and a reasonable rider, he was cavalry. When he got off it he was infantry, as were men on poor horses, or who could not ride well.
Title: Re: Looking for Rhys ap Thomas banners and badges
Post by: Cubs on September 11, 2018, 07:44:48 PM
I would define cavalry as someone who fights from horseback. I don't know if that's academically accurate or not to be honest. If they ride to the battlefield and get off, or even if they're mounted on the battlefield and then dismount when they've ridden to position, I'd class that as mounted infantry. Like you say, how they're used on the day defines the term.

But most figures I've seen for the total troops Rhys ap Thomas raised for Bosworth put it between 1,500 and 2,000. So if his grandson says 1,800 horsemen were provided, that slots in nicely to the total and I'd be surprised if at the very least half weren't infantry (presumably mounted), given the nature of the fighting we know happened on the day. After his knighthood, the sort of numbers he was raising for service with Henry VII seem to be about a dozen lances, 250-300 demi lances and the same infantry. Granted this is after his knighthood, so the troop composition isn't likely to be exactly the same pre-Bosworth, but I think I'll use that sort of proportion when planning the force.
Title: Re: Looking for Rhys ap Thomas banners and badges
Post by: Arlequín on September 11, 2018, 10:23:00 PM
Most of the men he raised for Bosworth were likely to be 'well-wishers' and fellow travellers on the Henry Tudor bandwagon. The later troops were almost certainly his own retainers, along with his and their household men and tenants. He could probably still raise 1,800 men for a domestic campaign, probably more as he was now a major player and had additional offices ; he probably also held a commission of array too.

In comparison the Stanleys are said to have raised 3,000 men for Bosworth, while the typical 'retinue' for a lord seems to have been more usually around the 500 mark. The extras came from the offices held by the Stanleys and that they held commissions of array from Richard III for Cheshire, Lancashire and iirc Flintshire. Rhys ap Thomas probably had similar power after Bosworth, however armies for foreign campaigns were smaller.

Other retinues for France in 1492 are of similar proportions by troop type, the total numbers reflecting the relative power individuals wielded. Twelve men at arms, who were usually backed by a 'custrel' too, and a couple of hundred demi-lances (lesser men at arms in other words), plus the infantry, puts him up with 'the gods', i.e. folk like Lord Strange and Reginald Brey. The numbers of demilances seems quite high though, so that might include mounted archers and archers 'mounted' with 2-300 being the total of 'horsemen'. He's actually pretty close to the 1,000 men it is estimated that the Earl of Oxford could raise from just his own retainers and he was the 'foremost man of the kingdom'.

My previous comments were intended to put over the idea that Late 15th Century soldiers defy our more enlightenment categories, they were what they needed to be, when they needed to be it. Go back to earlier examples and you have many of the men at arms of Agincourt charging mounted with Clarence at Baugé. Men at arms foraged and scouted too, usually in company with 'light horse' and mounted archers, hardly something 'heavy cavalry' do.

Don't get me wrong, you're on the right track for my money, but I would try to shed concepts like light and heavy cavalry. Contemporaries talked in terms of horsemen and footmen, even if many of those footmen rode in transit. 'Light horse' might typically have 3/4 plate, or other substantial, if relatively cheap protection, when compared to the 'head to toe' armour worn by men at arms of that time. There are many explanations of what demilance means, I prefer 'part lance', 'lance' (or 'spear') being a man at arms in 15th Century speak.
Title: Re: Looking for Rhys ap Thomas banners and badges
Post by: Cubs on September 12, 2018, 07:34:13 PM
Some fuzzy ground seems to lurk about exactly what he did and what sort of position he held before his knighthood, since he lacked a title. From what I've read he was a wealthy landowner and one of the most powerful, if not the most powerful, lords in South Wales (Wales at that time being just the western regions of today, the modern Welsh counties nearer the border being 'The Marches' back then). Being a native Welshman he was barred from high office, but his family had a long history of being major players in Wales, putting him on a par with perhaps a middle rank nobleman in England.

He was ostensibly serving the various absentee Earls appointed in London who came and went fairly quickly, but practically speaking he had control of a bunch of castles and troops as well as being the lord of several parishes, castles and manors in his own right. Certainly Henry and Jasper Tudor went to great pains to persuade him to join their side and the high office (not just the knighthood) he received afterwards suggests his value to their cause. Numbers-wise, it appears he contributed maybe 1/4 to 1/3-ish of the troops for Bosworth, although presumably most of them fought under Oxford's command. I'm not thinking lots of fully armoured knights and such, more a small core of the chunky lads, plus half-armoured billmen, archers (of course, compulsory with Welsh troops) and a smattering of lighter armed guys on horseback. I'll mull over what you say about the different types of mounted guys to consider and play around with them as the whimsy takes me.
Title: Re: Looking for Rhys ap Thomas banners and badges
Post by: Arlequín on September 12, 2018, 11:22:14 PM
There was a bit of a power vacuum in Wales after Buckingham's attempted rising and Richard III lopping off Thomas Vaughan's head prior to that; a lot of disaffected Edwardian Yorkists looking for a leader.

Rhys may well have been the man who spoke for the exiles and around whom 'the resistance' coalesced. Just because he led them, doesn't mean he retained them. Perhaps he was someone not associated with either Lancaster or York, who both sides were prepared to follow.

If he was, as you say, the representative of absentee landlords et al, then certainly he would have had the authority to lead their men, or act on their behalf too. I might tentatively say he raised and marched a third of Tudor's Army to Bosworth, rather than he contributed them, which implies he 'owned' them in some way. They probably all fought under his command too; Oxford had extensive supporters of his own, and probably the French contingent as well.

Bosworth did launch Rhys into the spotlight of history and I believe managing the raising of all those men, probably combined with effective leadership in the battle itself, secured his place in times to come. Cometh the hour, cometh the man!

The Welsh squirearchy (uchelwyr) were both numerous and relatively poor in the main, so I would expect 'demilances' over 'men at arms' for the most part. From what I can gather the Welsh were actually quite archer- poor; where English retinues in 1492 were almost wholly archers, with a token presence of bills, Sir Walter Herbert had bills and bows in equal proportion, and a lot of them.

At Edgecote in 1469 Sir William Herbert is said to have had no archers and his row with Oxford the day before deprived him of firepower. I suspect that should read 'he did not have that many' in truth, but there is the hint that archers weren't numerous in Central and South Wales. As far back as the HYW, Welsh contingents were famously of spearmen. In England archers were middle class and upper-lower class, so if the same holds true for Wales, the relative scarcity of men of those sectors of society would limit the numbers of archers to others.

Everything I've said aside though, we don't really know troop ratios, other than specific retinues at a single point in time. Some indentures are quite vague, or offer the contracted the option to swap the numbers about to match the men actually raised, rather than what was contracted for. In that light putting your force together as it pleases you should produce a realistic contingent, whatever numbers of each you opt for.
Title: Re: Looking for Rhys ap Thomas banners and badges
Post by: levied troop on September 14, 2018, 06:50:07 AM
I love how, on LAF, a relatively straightforward query leads into some really interesting and informed discussion on the subject - many thanks for this gents.

As to the  “Welsh were actually quite archer- poor; where English retinues in 1492 were almost wholly archers”. I wonder if money is the answer.  If you’re poor but culturally brought up to handle a bow in Wales, can you make your (relative) fortune by trotting into England and increasing your wages at the hands of wealthier English lords.  And perhaps there’s still a cachet in being  a Welsh archer, even if by this stage there may be no practical difference in skills with their English counterparts?
Title: Re: Looking for Rhys ap Thomas banners and badges
Post by: Cubs on September 14, 2018, 07:56:55 AM
The Cheshire archers were certainly famed for their prowess. Perhaps, as now, it was a border region where the north Walians came looking for work.
Title: Re: Looking for Rhys ap Thomas banners and badges
Post by: vexillia on September 14, 2018, 08:34:58 AM
Rhys Ap Thomas's heraldic flag is available from Freezywater on sheet WRF 023 in both 15 & 25 mm.

Catalogue; http://vexillia.com/freezywater/pdf/FreezywaterWOTRCatalogue.pdf
15 mm: http://vexillia.com/freezywater/shop15_flags.html
25 mm: http://vexillia.com/freezywater/shop25_flags.html
Title: Re: Looking for Rhys ap Thomas banners and badges
Post by: Arlequín on September 14, 2018, 10:34:58 AM
Cheshire archers were from Cheshire, with a long tradition of resisting the Welsh. We can still shoot them in Chester if they hang about.

 ;)

Oddly many men who would have been men at arms elsewhere, served as mounted archers. Some big county names like Massey and Brereton featuring among them. Sir William Stanley's retinue in 1492 was wholly composed of mounted archers, albeit most likely very well furnished ones.

I get the impression that few Welshmen knew how to use the longbow by the 15th Century. The county sheriff and parish constable system that was needed to enforce archery laws in England didn't exist there. Where were the communal butts to be established in a land of farmsteads and few towns? Marcher lords didn't encourage their Welsh subjects acquiring 'mad skills' either. Glendower's revolt was in 'living memory' too, even in 1485 there were men who had fathers and grandfathers who had lived through it.

The most telling argument is that few of the population earned the £2 pa that required them to own a bow. I know few Welshmen that would go to unnecessary expense to own something an Englishman suggested he should have, let alone something he didn't need.

I'm not saying there were no Welsh archers, but there were not many of them. I don't actually think that the percentages in England were that much better, there were just many more English.  :)
Title: Re: Looking for Rhys ap Thomas banners and badges
Post by: Cubs on September 14, 2018, 12:07:08 PM
Cheshire archers were from Cheshire, with a long tradition of resisting the Welsh. We can still shoot them in Chester if they hang about.

Oh no you don't, that badger's an urban myth!

It was part of Chester's town statutes, but was superceded by UK law. It is persistent though and keeps getting quoted as an archaic law that has never been repealed, but it doesn't need to be because local laws cannot overrule national law.
Title: Re: Looking for Rhys ap Thomas banners and badges
Post by: Matakakea on September 14, 2018, 03:05:35 PM
Quote
Quote from: Arlequín on Today at 11:34:58 AM

Cheshire archers were from Cheshire, with a long tradition of resisting the Welsh. We can still shoot them in Chester if they hang about.




Oh no you don't, that badger's an urban myth!

It was part of Chester's town statutes, but was superceded by UK law. It is persistent though and keeps getting quoted as an archaic law that has never been repealed, but it doesn't need to be because local laws cannot overrule national law.

I heard of this law while visiting Chester some years ago. Apparently it was 'Formally' repealed in 2000.
Title: Re: Looking for Rhys ap Thomas banners and badges
Post by: Arlequín on September 14, 2018, 09:59:12 PM
Actually it would have been 1830, when the County's palatine status was finally totally reduced. Prior to that local laws trumped national ones, but they were steadily eroded from the Mid 16th Century onwards, when the County was first represented in Parliament.

There was a reason for the winking smilie though guys.  :)
Title: Re: Looking for Rhys ap Thomas banners and badges
Post by: Cubs on September 14, 2018, 10:17:02 PM
Just make sure you've got a good alibi for when Tom Jones finally turns up his toes, that's all I'm saying.
Title: Re: Looking for Rhys ap Thomas banners and badges
Post by: Arlequín on September 14, 2018, 10:29:47 PM
We love Sir Tom, we are afflicted with Cerys Matthews a lot though.  :)