Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => Age of Myths, Gods and Empires => Topic started by: Dalcor on September 09, 2018, 06:51:06 PM
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Are there any news about this new blue Osprey?
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Author's blog appears a good place to start
http://bloodandspectacles.blogspot.com/search/label/Men%20of%20Bronze
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Hello,
Let me know if you have any questions. I would love to answer them.
First off, the game is scale and base agnostic so you can use Baccus 6mm, Xyston 15mm, Airfix 1/72, or Victrix 28mm; the game will work just fine. It covers the period from the 7th century BC until the "end of the Hoplite" era with the Battle of Chaeronea in 338 B.C.*
You can see some battle reports and my *cough* amazing paper templates at my blog here:
https://bloodandspectacles.blogspot.com/2017/01/men-of-bronze-battle-report-corinthian.html
https://bloodandspectacles.blogspot.com/2018/05/battle-report-men-of-bronze-battle-of.html
https://bloodandspectacles.blogspot.com/2018/03/battle-report-men-of-bronze-battle-of.html
https://bloodandspectacles.blogspot.com/2018/04/battle-report-men-of-bronze-ravaging.html
https://bloodandspectacles.blogspot.com/2017/12/men-of-bronze-battle-report-marathon.html
I will have some fully painted and better presented Battle Reports by the time of the release. ;) In the meantime, let me know if you have any questions.
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-XJJn8tVTHFk/WywNFRLwbNI/AAAAAAAADdQ/liFEYYJtf4crIGiLf0UOgvULuqjw0jhIQCPcBGAYYCw/s320/IMG_0860.JPG)
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Quite interesting. So totally not my period I really need to get started on that lol.
Will follow the develeopments.
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I hadn't heard about this before.... Very interesting. How many units are involved in a standard game? I saw the Corinth vs Sparta game only had a few (a plus for me).
And will units be multibases or singles? I assume multi as you say 6mm is an option.
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There is no required basing. The key thing is you need to be able to know if a unit is in Open Order or Phalanx and who the "leader" base is of the unit. So, a multi-based unit could be 5 bases of double figures, with one base clearly having a leader on it. It could be 10 bases of 4 figures with a leader. The only requirement is that both sides should have the same general basing, but that is not even necessary for casual games with a bit of discussion.
As far as units per side, I have played with as few as 2-3 per side, with a standard game having about 5-6. Of course, you can also go as large as you wish. So, if you are going single base 28mm models, you would only need about 50 to 60 models per side. That is like, 2 or 3 boxes of plastic models for a full army. I was able to get a Corinthian, Spartan, and Macedonian army for about $300 USD or so.
Now, Painting them has taken me a little longer. lol
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This had me super excited... :D
So, if we were doing 10mm, could we have a phalanx of say 24 figures on two bases? Separating them slightly or pushed together to show open/closed order?
Is there a list of which states are included in the army lists?
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Going from memory the list of army lists is...
Athens
Spartans
Thebes
Other City-States (Corinth, Argo, Ionians, etc.)
Macedonians
Persians
Hill Tribes
.... However, the game uses somewhat generic units so it is easy to add/modify to fit the details you uncover in your research about a particular battle, City-State, or your own Imagi-Nation.
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Splendid, thanks.
So, if we were going to start building up a selection of forces, would two 40x40 bases of 10mm or 6mm figures work as a phalanx?
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It would work, but I think i would prefer 3 bases, so one base could clearly have 'Leader' elements as the location of the leader plays a bit part in moving, flanking, LOS, etc.
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We have a lot of stuff based like this:
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-ISc1htNjN9g/U24ueL3ePcI/AAAAAAAACX4/pDKnZI3Xd7c/s1600/2014-05-09+16.26.49.jpg)
I presume you could just use the place where the bases join as the 'leader'?
Are all unit types ok to have the same width? I.e., phalanx and peltasts both on 80mm widths.
Do you ever need separate commanders?
Thanks ::)
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It would work, but I think i would prefer 3 bases, so one base could clearly have 'Leader' elements as the location of the leader plays a bit part in moving, flanking, LOS, etc.
Is the leader not at the right hand end of the phalanx?
I might be a bit out of date on my classical warfare, but I always thought leaders were on the right at the front of the phalanx.
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Is the leader not at the right hand end of the phalanx?
I might be a bit out of date on my classical warfare, but I always thought leaders were on the right at the front of the phalanx.
Historically, they sure were, yes. However, I suspect the author here is going for wargaming convention of using a 'leader' to mark a centre front position to measure movement etc from. Several games seem to do that including Hail Caesar I think.
My multi-based hoplites will certainly have their leaders to the right.
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Correct on both counts. The leaders led from the front right since no one could cover them with a shield so they were taking the "most" risk. Gamewise, I put the leader at the center for measuring purposes very similar to Chosen Men.
You do NOT need separate commanders at all, and Peltasts can be based the same as Hoplites. However, Peltasts are always in open order and can not form a phalanx so if you keep that in mind it won't matter!
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Perfect!
I ordered the little 10mm sacrificing priest from Magister Militum and wasn't sure whether to base him with/in front of the hoplites, or separately. Not that I have 10mm hoplites yet.
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I too am interested. My hoplites are just gathering dust at the moment,
however, there is no mention on the Osprey site & I have looked as far
as 'pre-order for 3 months'.
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You can pre-order it on Amazon already.
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You can pre-order it on Amazon already.
Indeed, I have just pre-ordered it this morning.
Eric, any chance you could provide a list of the unit types in the game? From reading your blog it looks like there are:
*) hoplites (militia, drilled, and elite)
*) drilled foot (?)
*) peltasts
*) psiloi (javelins only, or slingers, or archers?)
*) archers
*) cavalry (any variation in types?)
Cheers.
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Big question, how many troops per unit, or it is up to the players? My 28mm hoplites and phalangites are on 4 man bases and I was thinking of units of 12-16 troops, allowing for marking casualties.
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Great questions guys.
As far as number of troopers per unit, it doesn't really matter as long as you can do two things....
1. Tell who the "leader" is for movement, LOS, determining flanks, etc.
2. You can tell if a unit is in Phalanx or open order (this could even be done via counters)
It also helps if both sides are based in roughly the same manner, but with some discussion ahead of time you could probably get past that too.
As far as troop types, I can't give all my secrets away! Suffice it to say that I am using the Daniel Mersey approach of loose, somewhat abstracted unit types. I believe on my bog there has been....
-Hoplites of various skill level
-Light missile troops such as Psiloi, Peltasts, and Archers (Oh my!)
-Non-Hoplite infantry of various skill level
-Cavalry
However, that is not all of the units in the book. I will say that I don't spill much ink on siege equipment or Persian chariots though. I considered them out of scope.
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As far as troop types, I can't give all my secrets away! Suffice it to say that I am using the Daniel Mersey approach of loose, somewhat abstracted unit types. I believe on my bog there has been....
-Hoplites of various skill level
-Light missile troops such as Psiloi, Peltasts, and Archers (Oh my!)
-Non-Hoplite infantry of various skill level
-Cavalry
However, that is not all of the units in the book. I will say that I don't spill much ink on siege equipment or Persian chariots though. I considered them out of scope.
You bloody tease you! ;)
We'll, my first 10mm Greeks have arrived. I've played it safe and started with peltasts. Still trying to work out if I need slingers, and whether there is a distinction between cavalry types.
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You bloody tease you! ;)
We'll, my first 10mm Greeks have arrived. I've played it safe and started with peltasts. Still trying to work out if I need slingers, and whether there is a distinction between cavalry types.
Slingers are indeed a troop type. However, melee is intentionally the more effective arm of decision.
Cavalry is in a light and heavy style.
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I am currently making tiny little 10mm greenstuff hats for my new army - Classical/pre-Philippic reform Macedonians (perhaps classed as Hill Tribes in the rules?).
I'm popping a little kausia on each leader of my Macedonian peltasts, and making little broad brimmed petasoi for my Macedonian cavalry.
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I look forward to seeing them.
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Hi
So, I have my Macedonians based on three 8-figures bases per unit in the Phalanx i.e. 24 figures per unit with 6 frontage and 4 deep, representing, roughly, a taxeis. I've tried to standarize base-sizes accross the army, therefore my Peltasts are in 3 figure bases, with the same frontage than the Phalanx -but shallower depth- while the Cavalry is based on pairs of 2 riders per base, with 6 bases per unit (to form wedges, if I fancy). As you see, it is very formal arrangement. I wonder if it can be used with your rules?
Thanks!
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Yes, they will be usable.
You can show them in Open Order by spacing the bases apart and form them up if you need to into Phalanx. If you can designate one base as the "leader" of the unit you are all set. The leader is used to determine Line-of-Sight, movement, etc.
I know form experience that basing varies a lot from game to game so I tried to make my game base and scale agnostic for the widest range of possible models and basing being used. No one wants to re-base their whole army for a new game system. Well, I don't anyway. :)
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I know form experience that basing varies a lot from game to game so I tried to make my game base and scale agnostic for the widest range of possible models and basing being used. No one wants to re-base their whole army for a new game system. Well, I don't anyway. :)
And that is commendable.
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This is the first I've heard of this game. I look forward getting a copy as I have a two large 15mm hoplite armies (Athens & Sparta) and a large and still growing Successor army.
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'Large 15mm'
Scale creep again?
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Eric, I have compiled everything that I currently know regarding your rules in preparation of building my first 10mm army.
https://irregularwars.blogspot.com/2018/10/men-of-bronze-what-do-we-know.html (https://irregularwars.blogspot.com/2018/10/men-of-bronze-what-do-we-know.html)
If there is anything you want to add (or correct), please let me know.
I am starting with Classical (pre-Philippic reform) Macedonians. Would a starting force like this seem reasonably doable - as hill tribes maybe?
1x heavy cavalry, 2x militia hoplites, 3x peltasts
Cheers,
Nic
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Great thread, I just came across mention of these rules independently Friday, then saw Nic's post on TMP about his blog Friday night, and from that landed here. Very excited about these and what appear to be their sister-rules, Heirs to Empire, for the immediate post-Alexander period.
Being an odd person, I note Magister Militum's 3mm ancients range will cover both rulesets pretty well... and I've had a 3mm Dux Bellorum/Eagles Rampant project for Romans proper planned for a while.
Look forward to more information and seeing MoB next year.
Chris
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Great thread, I just came across mention of these rules independently Friday, then saw Nic's post on TMP about his blog Friday night, and from that landed here.
I haven't posted on TMP in... two years maybe? I wonder who is posting my blog there?
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I haven't posted on TMP in... two years maybe? I wonder who is posting my blog there?
You've been Tango'd.
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You've been Tango'd.
:-X Before I left TMP I got the impression that chap has serious issues... I am sure he is one of those chaps who phone the police claiming to be an important witness...
now back to important business... what about Heirs to the Empire? That looks even tastier!
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:-X Before I left TMP I got the impression that chap has serious issues... I am sure he is one of those chaps who phone the police claiming to be an important witness...
Though to be fair, in this case he has provided some free advertising for these rules :)
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By the way, did you hear about War Banner's new ruleset, Mortal Gods - Test of Courage? It covers -roughly- the same period than yours, but it is based on the system Test of Honour.
2019 looks like it's going to be a Greek Year, for wargaming purposes.
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Yes, I heard of them. I look forward to some new, cool models.
Regarding the Macedonians for Nic, the Hill Tribe list does not specifically call for Heavy Cavalry, BUT the rules are clear that the Army Lists presented are a sample and I always encourage players to build their own where appropriate. All the units you mention ARE in the game and a list like you outlined is very playable.
I also have a short "ahistoric" battle report for the system at my blog....
As Phillip II's, army marched south from Macedon and into Greece the rival Greek city-states prepared to resist. Of course, Phillip was a canny warrior and political operative. As his main force moved to the decisive battle in Chaeronea, he split off small forces of soldiers to desecrate and destroy shrines and temples sacred to his opponents. He wanted them to be demoralized and prove that not even the gods could save them from his armies. As one of these detachments came to a shrine to Apollo, they encountered the unexpected. A pilgrimage of Spartan warriors and their Helot followers had made a pilgrimage to the site.
The Spartans were no friends of the Thebans or their Boetian League. However, when the Macedonian officer demanded they remove themselves from the shrine, he challenged their laconic sense of pride. The Spartan commander simply responded, “Move us.... if you can.”
Such disrespect made the young Macedonian commanders blood boil in rage. He would show these impudent Spartans who the new rulers of Greece were. He ordered his men and allied Thessalian infantry to prepare to attack.
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51xYBL5XuDL._SX367_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg)
Courtesy of: https://www.amazon.com/Men-Bronze-Ancient-Hoplite-Wargames/dp/1472832612
Clearly, this is an “ahistoric” battle. There is no evidence that Phillip waged spiritual warfare against the Greeks, and there is very little chance that a Macedonian Phalanx would have come to blows with a Spartan contingent north of Thebes; if at all. However, I wanted a small battle that used the models that I had painted at the moment, so this is what we get....
Forces
Spartans
1 Elite Phalanx
1 Psiloi
1 Peltast
- 18 Points
Macedonians
1 Macedonian Phalanx
1 Militia Hoplite
-18 points
Mission
This will be a Desecrate the Sacred scenario. The Spartans would be the defenders of the shrine that would be placed in the rough center of the 4x3 board. The shrine would be difficult terrain. The defenders can place 1 unit in the shrine, while the others come in from the board edge. Meanwhile, the Macedonians would come in from the opposite board edge.
If the Macedonians could keep a unit in the ruins for 1d3 turns, they would desecrate the place. The Spartans just had to keep them out.
Set-up
The Spartans choose to place their Phalanx in the shrine, with their Peltasts and Psiloi rushing on to relieve them. The Macedonians lined up with their main phalanx heading straight for the shrine, and their allies to their left in the field. The Macedonians and the Spartans begin in Phalanx, while the others (including the Thessalians) are in open order.
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-6bO8QZz89cI/W48bkDve4EI/AAAAAAAAEPE/WoP3MZR61V8c_Ytslkx2qUl7pKPJLec5gCKgBGAs/s320/IMG_3115.JPG)
You can read all about the final results of this skirmish on the blog: https://bloodandspectacles.blogspot.com/2018/10/men-of-bronze-battle-report-desecrate.html
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Also desecrating Temple would have been a boon to Theban-Athenian cause... and could have created issues inside his own army too, after all the Macedonionas were considered rustics, but still Hellenic rustics rather than barbarians. Actually Philip accused his opponents of this in the Third Sacred War... lol but the scenario is interesting. When I did my class on Greek history... the main subject for the year, was Philip vs Athens!
But beside Men of Bronze, can you shed some more information on the Hellenistic version?
Arrigo
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Also desecrating Temple would have been a boon to Theban-Athenian cause... and could have created issues inside his own army too, after all the Macedonionas were considered rustics, but still Hellenic rustics rather than barbarians. Actually Philip accused his opponents of this in the Third Sacred War... lol but the scenario is interesting. When I did my class on Greek history... the main subject for the year, was Philip vs Athens!
But beside Men of Bronze, can you shed some more information on the Hellenistic version?
Arrigo
Yes, like I said.... very ahistorical but I wanted to use what I had painted...... so in the long tradition of gamers everywhere..... I made some stuff up. :D Plus, I guarantee that you guys probably know WAY more about the period than I ever could.
As for the Hellenistic game do you mean Heirs to Empire? If so, that is in the very early stages with Osprey even though I have played a many games of it. I expect that if Men of Bronze does okay, they will move forward with it, and if it doesn't do well.... R.I.P. to the Wars of the Diadochi version. lol
I will say this. It is scale and base agnostic, but the "scale" of the game is different. For example, the armies are organized by left, right, and central wings as opposed to the whole army just picking stuff. In addition, the game assumes officers are putting their units in the right battle formations so the Diadochi can focus more on how the units will be supporting each other in a combined arms approach. I will be using Bacchus 6mm, but again the game itself is base and scale agnostic.
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I haven't posted on TMP in... two years maybe? I wonder who is posting my blog there?
Oops, sorry Nic, I was posting in haste and hadn't caught who'd put the TMP post up. I'd jumped straight from it to your blog.
(I'm also a TMP exile, been about a year for me).
Chris
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Regarding the Macedonians for Nic, the Hill Tribe list does not specifically call for Heavy Cavalry, BUT the rules are clear that the Army Lists presented are a sample and I always encourage players to build their own where appropriate. All the units you mention ARE in the game and a list like you outlined is very playable.
;) As long as there is that sort of inbuilt flexibility, you'll get no complaints from me.
Heavy cavalry are what... 8 points?
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Oops, sorry Nic, I was posting in haste and hadn't caught who'd put the TMP post up. I'd jumped straight from it to your blog.
(I'm also a TMP exile, been about a year for me).
Chris
No bother. Just happy we've both found a better place. 8)
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Eric, I have compiled everything that I currently know regarding your rules in preparation of building my first 10mm army.
https://irregularwars.blogspot.com/2018/10/men-of-bronze-what-do-we-know.html (https://irregularwars.blogspot.com/2018/10/men-of-bronze-what-do-we-know.html)
If there is anything you want to add (or correct), please let me know.
Cheers,
Nic
I was re-reading your blog and I realized that there was a key game component that you can find in the battle reports that you did not mention.
Arete Points. (Sorry, I do not know how to give it the right accent mark on forums and blogs) These are a resource that you get from your units that you can then spend to do various actions in the game. Some examples include, forming a phalanx formation, charging, bidding for initiative, interrupting the turn, re-rolls, evading, moving and shooting, etc. They are a limited resource that you have to use through out the game to get the most out of your units. This adds an element of decision making at all parts of the turn for both players as well as resource management. If you are familiar with Dux Bellorum it is an expanded concept of Leadership tokens.
Should you try to bid high to earn the initiative or save the Arete points for key movement through difficult terrain? Should you trigger a charge or keep the point for a re-roll in a key combat? This forces you to think about what you want to accomplish in a turn and bid and use points accordingly. This helps the game be a bit more "tactical" then just the thrusting of spears and the push of shields with a bunch of dice rolls.
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Can't wait!
I will amend the blog - or post an update. Thanks Eric.
Nic
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Would DBA armies (or quite similar size forces) be usable with the rules?
Seems like with a slight modification to measuring that should work...
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All measurements are in "Base Widths" so there is no defined "scale" and sure work with any size units or basing you wish.
As long as you can tell if they are in Open Order or Phalanx it can work.
The leader as point of measuring/LOS maybe a bit of an issue with single base units, but collaborative players can easily work around that. by using the right corner instead, or the center most figure on a base.
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Thanks, a simple marker for open order when required may be the easiest solution. Many troops will be closed by default I assume.
For the LoS, as you say the right corner for the leader give a little more historical feel than using the center which most games do. Often I find the center of the base causes less issues than a single loose commander fig for LOS anyway.
I don't play massively competitive players so it should work out ok.
Will watch with interest.
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Curious about the intended size of the battles, the description has it as small battles/large skirmishes, so is that in say the 300-800 men (not figures) per side range? Or a bit bigger, say a few thousand per side?
Or down to what we'd call a modern company of the 50-80 figures you can use in the bigger figure scales? Given you've done Marathon, I don't think it's that, but I am trying to get a handle on what I'd need for 3mm (be a bit silly to have 64 figures on a base if it's only supposed to represent 4 guys...).
Thanks,
Chris
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Great on what I've read so far on this game. Play tons of Hail Caesar! but haven't got to the Greeks yet. Men of Bronze the game might be that deciding factor on what army I work on when April rolls around!
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Curious about the intended size of the battles, the description has it as small battles/large skirmishes, so is that in say the 300-800 men (not figures) per side range? Or a bit bigger, say a few thousand per side?
Or down to what we'd call a modern company of the 50-80 figures you can use in the bigger figure scales? Given you've done Marathon, I don't think it's that, but I am trying to get a handle on what I'd need for 3mm (be a bit silly to have 64 figures on a base if it's only supposed to represent 4 guys...).
Thanks,
Chris
My understanding is that it will scale however you like. The author is using 10 figures to represent a hoplite phalanx, but depending on the situation, I guess that could be a 256 lochos, or a 1000 man contingent.
I am starting with a 10mm Macedonian force based on the army of Perdikkas II during Brasidas' northern campaign (424-421 BC) where the 10 figures in my cavalry unit can represent the 400ish strong Macedonian cavalry units being used. That ratio (1:40) would mean that each 28 figure phalanx would be 1120 men. About right for the campaign I think.
(https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-sF4VEc5p1Xg/W8yaQmUgUJI/AAAAAAAAGkY/R2i0E-hBWLwPEmIEcRvjBtR62k4JpkNggCLcBGAs/s1600/IMG_20181021_103718.jpg)
http://irregularwars.blogspot.com/2018/10/10mm-early-macedonian-hippeis.html (http://irregularwars.blogspot.com/2018/10/10mm-early-macedonian-hippeis.html)
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Very cool!
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My understanding is that it will scale however you like. The author is using 10 figures to represent a hoplite phalanx, but depending on the situation, I guess that could be a 256 lochos, or a 1000 man contingent.
Thanks Nic, so most often on the side of a battle of a few thousand men, maybe high hundreds. Think I can pull that off 1:1 in 3mm, at least at the small end of battle size. Maybe 1:4. 40x20mm bases could take 16 hoplites by 8 deep, so two bases for a lochos and then I just call it a thousand men when I want to do something bigger.
Or go crazy and do enough bases to keep at 1:1...
Chris
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Or go crazy and do enough bases to keep at 1:1...
o_o :-*
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My editor reached out and asked me for some more photos of models. Therefore, I might have some more pictures to put in this thread soon.
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Some none 28mm figs pic's would be cool as others have mentioned :)
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That would be awesome, but right now I just have 28MM stuff.
The next book about the Diadochi will have some other scale stuff in it.....
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(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-G_r8aVvG2Xo/W_2hGUNENsI/AAAAAAAAGrQ/lYudXDQPWhUm-rIegMTe3qvTvCmdpOC2ACLcBGAs/s1600/0.jpg)
My first 10mm hoplites for you Eric...
https://irregularwars.blogspot.com/2018/11/10mm-hoplites.html (https://irregularwars.blogspot.com/2018/11/10mm-hoplites.html)
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Super cool! Love the background of that picture.
I just got the final lay-outs to look over and do final edits.
Then, I get to start working on the Quick-Reference Guide.
(https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-Sqbf3R9v_X8/WwSNZ9ecS-I/AAAAAAAADXw/Tr5oszPsu1w_fOtb2RP-biSAP4squ2ihACKgBGAs/s640/IMG_0802.JPG)
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That's exciting! Looking forward to getting hold of it.
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Eric, can you tell us if wild chargey infantry will be a thing please?
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Can you tell me a bit about what you mean?
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I guess fast, aggressive, unformed foot. A warband type troop description. I am wondering specifically about Illyrians, but could also be for Thracians with rhomphaia etc or Keltoi I suppose.
Peltasts or some sort of undrilled foot might do in the absence of a warband option.
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Yes, there is a warband option. Besides phalanx infantry there are various training/levels of non-phalanx infantry too.
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Perfect. That ought to do the trick!
Thanks, and merry Christmas Eric.
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All measurements are in "Base Widths" so there is no defined "scale" and sure work with any size units or basing you wish.
As long as you can tell if they are in Open Order or Phalanx it can work.
The leader as point of measuring/LOS maybe a bit of an issue with single base units, but collaborative players can easily work around that. by using the right corner instead, or the center most figure on a base.
Erric, thanks for the game, I like your blog, and this game development and release is convenient, as I just (re)fall in love with Greece thanks to Assassins Creed Odyssey (and previously thanks to Gemmels and Pressfiedls books).
I am just summarizing this for Czech readers. I have experience both with Dux Bellorum, Chosen Man and Rampants as well, but I do wonder how the Base Width measurement works for Single Based Models. Are you assuming the unit/base width according to total sum of bases in unit. Lets say that 10x28mm models on 25 mm base forming falanx is 125mm wide?
Thanks and Cheers Dalibor.
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Yes, there is a warband option. Besides phalanx infantry there are various training/levels of non-phalanx infantry too.
Any chance for a more detailed list of troop types and points costs yet Eric?
I now have 8 units painted up for my 5th century Macedonians. Waiting on figures to add a couple of Illyrian warbands too. I suspect I have overdone it, but good to have a few options.
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Just pre-ordered this book on Amazon. Looking forward to trying out the game!
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It's Happening!
https://ospreypublishing.com/men-of-bronze
(https://ospreypublishing.com/media/catalog/product/cache/2/image/958def80b7ce809d46640f86aa46835c/9/7/9781472832610.jpg)
(https://memegenerator.net/img/instances/57106138/okay-its-happening-everyone-stay-calm.jpg)
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It's better be happening! I've just completed an army for it and I've had the book on preorder for months. ;D
Is that a new cover image?
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Eagerly awaiting it here too! Can't we just skip forward till April?
Chris
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Yes it is. I noticed the same thing with Poseidon's Warriors.
For pre-orders on various sites it looks like Osprey provides a placeholder cover until the actual art is ready and approved.
My editor says the book is being printed now.
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I am just summarizing this for Czech readers. I have experience both with Dux Bellorum, Chosen Man and Rampants as well, but I do wonder how the Base Width measurement works for Single Based Models. Are you assuming the unit/base width according to total sum of bases in unit. Lets say that 10x28mm models on 25 mm base forming falanx is 125mm wide?
Thanks and Cheers Dalibor.
A "Base Width" is really just a generic Measurement Unit that can be ant length you desire and feels "right" to you and your games. Frequently with my 28mm models I just use an Imperial Inch. However, to be scale and model agnostic, other scales will want to use a single measurement across the front of the base for the standard infantry base.
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My editor says the book is being printed now.
That is pretty exciting. :)
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Just discovered this ruleset when they appeared on Osprey to be published list (my fault).
Any chance to include Syracuse and Carthaginian in the ruleset? I'd call for a lot of fighting in Sicily involving Syracuse, Carthago, Athene and Sparta. Definitely in the period covered in the rules!
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It is interesting you mention Carthage and Sicily. You may notice some of my other threads in this forum are for sources on this very topic! I am working on some rules where Carthage is the "star" as opposed to be the adversary of Rome that we normally see. Very early stages though.
In a pinch and with some creativity these rules could work for Sicily and her many wars, but there is no active army lists for Carthage in this book.
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I'm gonna read them, then!
For Syracuse not a big deal, standard hoplite warfare. So Syracuse vs Sparta vs Athene is covered.
For Carthage I don't know how flexibles are the rules for generic troops types (like Rampant serie), which allow you to draw your list. Can shed any light on it?
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I am working on a blog post on this topic, so keep your eyes peeled. I will say the "Rampant" Series was a big inspiration in my army list designs.
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I got the go-ahead to share some of the Unit info people have been looking for. Hopefully, it is helpful to you.
https://bloodandspectacles.blogspot.com/2019/02/men-of-bronze-units-types.html
Also, my copy is in the mail to me!
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Very cool, thanks for that. Now to go check out Osprey's sale (again) to see what MAA and Elite books I might need to support a project for this.
Chris
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Thanks for posting Eric. I know I have been chaffing to get more info on force building.
Something you wrote confused me though. If movement is in base widths, that means my 10mm chaps on 60mm bases move 60mm every 1 movement unit. However, you say you use 1" per movement unit for 28mm troops. That would make my small lads six times faster than your giant hoplites. That can't be right, so what am I missing? :?
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Base widths are just an arbitrary measure to keep things generic. I probably should have called them "Measurement Units" as they can be whatever you need them to be.
I have actually never really measured the bases widths on my models. I just use 1 inch as it looks and feels good to me to play with in 28mm.
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Ah, so in my case, where a unit is 60cm wide, we might be better using 1cm as a movement unit?
I would imagine your 28mm units are about 5-6 inches wide...?
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I was just going to ask the same type of thing... Might be a good thing to blog about/post more info here - how you would use multi-base models in the rules as it seems some of us at least have multiple-based stuff and likely won't be doing 28mm individual based mini's, but might still want to try the game.
DBx basing for example I can possibly be used in 3 ways it seems:
* 1 DBX base per unit - travel scale game (markers for unit formation may be needed)
* 2 DBX bases wide per unit - allows a representation of formation etc
* 1 BDX base per one or 2 figures at 28mm level.
Some thoughts from the author might help one each case. :)
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Great idea! I will get right on that.
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Sorry, no progress on the Base discussion front.
I was asked to write an article for Wargames, Soldiers, and Strategy so I tackled that first.
If you are interested in Ancient Greek combat, you will be happy with the May issue.
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I finally got around to that post about basing.....
https://bloodandspectacles.blogspot.com/2019/03/men-of-bronze-all-of-your-bases.html
I can;t shake the feeling I missed something, so feel free to ask away....
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Another good post thanks. I look forward to trying the rules out. :)
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Good reading that Eric. And whoever painted those tiny 10mm chaps must be some sort of genius master army painter!
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My 15mm hoplites are based in groups of 10, so your post re. basing for Men of Bronze is most encouraging. :)
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Picked up my copy yesterday and read it on the way home.
I really like the rules. Looking forward to giving them a go. I think they seem like a pretty good representation of hopite warfare. I'm off to dig out my hoplites and Persians and try them out.
(However, and its a minor but important niggle, why isn't there a playsheet. No excuse for not including this Osprey it's well know us gamers like them. It's a complaint I have about many of their sets).
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Picked up my copy yesterday and read it on the way home.
WHAT! It's out?! I have mine on pre-order and I didn't think it was due for another fortnight.
Can't wait!
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sound like... Salute... :D
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:D Osprey had them on their stand...l couldn't say no really! lol
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Yes, the playsheet! That is on my list of things to do!
I started one, but decided to wait until I got the final printing before putting it into writing.... and then.... pesky life got in the way!
I will get cracking on it.....
Edit:
Here are some early reviews/flip-through I have found....
https://therewillbe.games/articles-boardgame-reviews/6570-barnes-on-games-osprey-s-latest-tabletop-rulebooks-frostgrave-ragnarok-men-of-bronze-rebels-and-patriots
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h7IqEUU7iuQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DpBDSisFMYA
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Looking forward to this, despite it comes late to Canada, I've got all sorts of Hoplites on the go for it, so I'm pumped. Cheers!
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I just sent the QRS to Osprey for the website this morning!
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Perfect.... I'm planning a game on tues.
Hopefully it will be up by then :)
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Does this ruleset a) works well for scaled-down battles? (10-20 miniatures per side) b) Is it suitable for other european battlefields of the same timeframe (e.g.: iberians vs phoenicians or greeks vs carthaginians)?
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This is designed mostly for Phalanx oriented combat. Could it be used for other battles? I am sure wargamers are a clever lot.... :D
In the past couple of days, i have been considering the Carthaginians vs. Greek conflicts in Sicily (and other parts of the Med) and realized I missed out on them. I have started working a bit on rectifying this oversight.... but it is obviously too late for this book and would be extra content on the Osprey website or elsewhere.
As for small numbers of troops, I have played games with 3 units vs. 3 units before. This is a unit-vs-unit game in nature. I use 10 men per unit in 28MM, but there is no reason you could not change this to whatever number you want and find pleasing.
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In the past couple of days, i have been considering the Carthaginians vs. Greek conflicts in Sicily (and other parts of the Med) and realized I missed out on them. I have started working a bit on rectifying this oversight.... but it is obviously too late for this book and would be extra content on the Osprey website ...
Having peeked at the lists on the various flip-throughs on YouTube, I'm inclined to agree Eric. You don't currently have lists for any Greek state north or west of Thebes. I'd live to help you rectify that!
And of course Magna Graecia isn't represented either as you say.
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Yes, I put in a rather generic *Greek City-State* List to cover some of the others, but I expect it will be lacking for some of the specific details for many readers.
Thankfully, there is also a section about house ruling away! However, I am always open to additional list ideas that I can compile and get to the Osprey website or other sources!
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This is designed mostly for Phalanx oriented combat. Could it be used for other battles? I am sure wargamers are a clever lot.... :D
You mean hoplite-like spearmen phalanxs, not macedonian phalanx (with 5 meter long sarissas), don't you?
Ancient iberians seem to have fought with two-handed spears in individual combat (probably in a way similar to micenian greeks if we give credit to the Iliad), only to later change to a style more akin to that of the greeks (heavy infantry spearmen in dense formations being supported by light skirmishers).
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Had a trial game with them last night and once we got into the flow of things they went well. Thebans vs Athenians. The Arete points are a nice touch and make things a lot more interesting than a straight move and fight combat.
Next week we'll try a scenario terrain and a few other things.
(For info my hoplites are based as units of 8, peltasts as units of 6 and psiloi as units of 4. All are on 100x50mm unit bases for my own rules. MoB worked without any issue with these).
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You mean hoplite-like spearmen phalanxs, not macedonian phalanx (with 5 meter long sarissas), don't you?
Ancient iberians seem to have fought with two-handed spears in individual combat (probably in a way similar to micenian greeks if we give credit to the Iliad), only to later change to a style more akin to that of the greeks (heavy infantry spearmen in dense formations being supported by light skirmishers).
Yes, it annoys me greatly that both styles of fighting are called a phalanx. Hoplite's are more shieldwall while Macedonian phalangites are more spear wall. How can they have the same name? I do not know, but they do. lol
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I've just written up a review of my thoughts on Men of Bronze. I think you've written a great set of mechanics for the period Eric, but I have a few niggles as well. Interestingly - given the comments above - one of them concerns the word phalanx...
http://irregularwars.blogspot.com/2019/04/review-of-ospreys-men-of-bronze.html (http://irregularwars.blogspot.com/2019/04/review-of-ospreys-men-of-bronze.html)
The summary at the end:
"All in all, I think the mechanics of Men of Bronze are really nice and I can’t wait to get stuck in. The niggles are niggly, and take away from what could have been a splendid book, but they should not get in the way of a fun set of clever rules for gaming battles between Greeks, other Greeks, and their neighbours."
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A fair review!
Army Lists and Historical scenarios are always a sticky-wicket.
As for Phalanges..... lol! I got nothing.
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One of my gaming buddies has just finished 32 points of Greeks to oppose my Macedonians, so really looking forward to trying these out soon.
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The reviews of these rules sound great and might be the thing to get me back into ancients (last played at university 30 years ago). Unfortunately I got rid of most of my 15mm Minifigs Grreks and Macedonians. This time around I might go for 10mm.
Does this ruleset a) works well for scaled-down battles? (10-20 miniatures per side) b) Is it suitable for other european battlefields of the same timeframe (e.g.: iberians vs phoenicians or greeks vs carthaginians)?
These rules look interesting for smaller combats:
http://www.thewargamespot.com/fighting-the-greek-invaders/
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I saw review of your ruleset on Nick's awesome blog and I ordered them immediately.
If I were to suggest a further expansion of the army lists, I would point toward the Successor states of the Hellenistic Period, even if by a single, generic army list. Even if one can't comprehend the sheer beauty of Seleucid, Antigonid and Ptolemaic ranks, the Rule of Cool demands elephants. Seriously, would happily pay for a PDF expanding the system in that direction - and I think that system that already encompasses armies of the Philip II or the Persian kings could do it without much hassle. In the era of the Wargame Vault sky is the limit.
Also, there is a single, but important question - what is the unit footprint/board size ratio? Space is at a premium in my case, so every game that fits on regular table scores a big plus. I plan using single-based units on 4cmx2cm base for each phalanx.
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I have Successor Period in the works with Osprey called Heirs to Empire.
I use between 48 by 48 base widths up to 72 by 48 base widths.
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Men of Bronze phalanx question:
I noted that there are two formations- phalanx or not phalanx (Open order).
The formation rules are interpretive for many units- it seems that everything in open order will be able to operate in mobs- seemingly being able to snake around and sneaking through the Zones of Control. Is this intended? I missed any perceptible rule that limits firepower by models in a firing unit blocking each other's LOS.
To that point as I read the rules about phalanx, it states that at any time the unit may switch to Open order- and by spending an Arete point may reform back into phalanx facing whichever way the leader is facing even in the same move. This may create situations where models will move faster than their Movement allowance, due to lining up on the center model. I intend to use larger than ten model units- so I am trying to sort out this mechanic.
[So that is the question - can a phalanx unit unform and reform in the same activation?]
Thanks, I'm hoping these rules ratchet up interest locally.
*********************
05/02/
I found the answer in the activation segment.
As for snaking units- that is still an active question. Units seem to have no restrictions on distance from the center leader(as in Lion Rampant) this allows snaking, in which units are able to shoot gaps.
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Good stuff! I am working on a FAQ for my blog that some folks have asked me about, so keep the questions coming.
In addition, I sent some Sicilian War stuff to Osprey for their downloads page. This includes Syracusan and Carthaginian army lists and a Historical Scenario for the Battle of Himalcar using the Men of Bronze rules.
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Quick question......
Can you guys suggest some good sources for Northern Greek military forces? I know pre-reform Macedonians is a place I need work, but also other Thracian city-states or kingdoms would be great.
Thanks for your help.
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Westlake's Thessaly volume is probably still the best single source on Thessaly. It focuses on the 4th century tyrannies, but summarises earlier periods too.
Macedonia is a bit more all over the place. You could start with Thucydides, but I've just submitted something for consideration for publication that brings a lot more of the info together.
For northwestern Greeks such as Aitolians and classical Epeirotes, Thucydides is again going to be your go to source.
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1) Units attacked in the rear or flank seem to have no penalties in combat. Units attacking have +2 bonuses. This does not seem to be enough of an advantage- am I missing something?
2) Shooting units- LOS is measured from the leader model, then it says that shooters have 360 degree arcs of fire. Is that 360 degree arc from the leader only and blocked by models in his own unit?
3) Somebody posted somewhere that "phalanges" is not proper labeling of multiple phalanxes. I reckon Krentz and Van Wees would beg to differ on that. Phalanxes and/or phalanges is appropriate. Calling hoplite shields "hoplons", that is the proper stuff of pedantic ruler slapping of knuckles :) Hoplite is an "armed man", a man with an aspis (shield), and spear- he is not named after his shield- in which case he would be an "aspidelite" --- lucky us they used hoplite instead. Pedantry light off.
Looking forward to trying out a game, I have noted some concerns- I am not convinced about the moving of phalanx units physically in support, but that is my gut talking.
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I will add these to the FAQ. Hopefully it will be out on my blog soon.
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I (finally!) got the rules Thursday. I have already had a quick read.
I think the modifier for flank and rear are there (+2 for flank attackers, +4 for rear), and seeing how Eric set up the dice system it makes sense (I would have gone with less dice and more modifiers. but it is me).
From my reading the whole support thing sounds less puzzling than other people have claimed. I see them more as rear support (as in Epaminondas massing his phalanx) rather than the overlap common in other rules. Basically there big decision is shortening your frontage to mass on a focal point (and added chance of mass routing...) versus keeping a longer line. Yet because we are used to think in term of flank support it seems it is causing some issues.
Looking forward to have a play... need to finish preparing some guys for that.
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The living FAQ is up based on the questions people have asked me in various forums.
https://bloodandspectacles.blogspot.com/2019/05/men-of-bronze-living-faq_6.html
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Thanks for that FAQ.
Going to play first game on Friday using Punic war units - very few hoplite type units save what Carthage is bringing, and maybe Triarii, so it'll be interesting. Going to field the Republican Romans as Elite and drilled type infantry and the Pila will be greatly missed, but I think the game will still work out wonderfully.
The FAQ really helped to clear up some confusion, so thank you again!
Cheers
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I hope you post a batrep
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Thanks for that FAQ.
Going to play first game on Friday using Punic war units - very few hoplite type units save what Carthage is bringing, and maybe Triarii, so it'll be interesting. Going to field the Republican Romans as Elite and drilled type infantry and the Pila will be greatly missed, but I think the game will still work out wonderfully.
The FAQ really helped to clear up some confusion, so thank you again!
Cheers
I was thinking how these might work for the Punic Wars as well, with Pila I thought before a Roman unit enters melee then roll a d6, if you score 4,5 or a 6 then the Pila has managed to disrupt the enemy formation forcing them to fight in open order.
Or another option would be to add more attack dice, like you do for attacking flanks or rear.
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I hope you post a batrep
I'd love to do a video one on my YouTube channel, but I think since its my first time playing the best I can possibly do is a picture one. We'll see.
I was thinking how these might work for the Punic Wars as well, with Pila I thought before a Roman unit enters melee then roll a d6, if you score 4,5 or a 6 then the Pila has managed to disrupt the enemy formation forcing them to fight in open order.
Or another option would be to add more attack dice, like you do for attacking flanks or rear.
That would be interesting. I was also thinking +1 to d6 rolled in attack or something when you charge in. But I think for our initial games we'll just stick to original game book stuff and pretend the Romans left the pila at home ;)
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I'd love to do a video one on my YouTube channel, but I think since its my first time playing the best I can possibly do is a picture one. We'll see.
That would be interesting. I was also thinking +1 to d6 rolled in attack or something when you charge in. But I think for our initial games we'll just stick to original game book stuff and pretend the Romans left the pila at home ;)
Yes, good idea, get a feel for the rules first. I've played them a couple of times now, hope you enjoy them as much as I did :)
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Thanks for that FAQ.
Going to play first game on Friday using Punic war units - very few hoplite type units save what Carthage is bringing, and maybe Triarii, so it'll be interesting. Going to field the Republican Romans as Elite and drilled type infantry and the Pila will be greatly missed, but I think the game will still work out wonderfully.
The FAQ really helped to clear up some confusion, so thank you again!
Cheers
I will be interested in what happens. I have been working on some pre-Punic War stuff off and on for after Heirs to Empire.
You can see an early play test here: https://bloodandspectacles.blogspot.com/2018/12/conquest-rome-in-italy-battle-report.html?m=1
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A points question for Eric:
Why are warband infantry so expensive? They are worse in almost every way to peltasts, but 50% more costly?
Based one their stat line and lack of special traits, I would have thought they were more akin to psiloi in points cost.
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A points question for Eric:
Why are warband infantry so expensive? They are worse in almost every way to peltasts, but 50% more costly?
Based on their stat line and lack of special traits, I would have thought they were more akin to psiloi in points cost.
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Yeah, many people have been pointing this out to me. I am still considering how I want to tackle it.
In play testing the warband infantry often performed better in their role as flankers, support, or "fast" moving threats to victory conditions than Peltasts as players did not get distracted by shooting and other tricks that Peltasts had. Perhaps that clouded my judgement a bit as they seemed to outperform Peltasts.
In addition, infantry points went down in nice multiples of two! :)
More to come!
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(https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-9y-z-05jJig/XNbrAsaesNI/AAAAAAAAHLI/jnBSZt2DkPIrwXjiKa1LnGPwgdQXrFJywCEwYBhgL/s1600/game%2B1%2B%25289%2529.jpg)
I've just written up a report and some thoughts after our first game (we actually played two, but the second report will have to wait for now.
https://irregularwars.blogspot.com/2019/05/first-game-of-men-of-bronze.html?fbclid=IwAR0fBPe1V7JAraE4Q9kYshc2Yx_agaduUqM1K8XCjokZqkYvUGjF85GEgOA (https://irregularwars.blogspot.com/2019/05/first-game-of-men-of-bronze.html?fbclid=IwAR0fBPe1V7JAraE4Q9kYshc2Yx_agaduUqM1K8XCjokZqkYvUGjF85GEgOA)
"In reflection after our game, there were things that raised eyebrows, but the game was fun. It flowed really well and there were enough tough decisions to keep us both engaged. The combat mechanisms, for melee and for shooting, are clear, easy to pick up, but nuanced enough to not make every unit handle the same way. Hoplites in phalanx formation are tough nuts!"
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It’s interesting to see the game played with large single bases as you did Irregular Wars Nic. That’s something I can certainly attest to - the game men of bronze really can be played on any basing style as long as you have a system to differentiate open order and phalanx. You can even just state “base width value is x” and honestly then use any basing system. I think if I used my men on 20x20 and 40x40 mm bases and games against someone with men on 25mm circle bases and we agreed base widths meant 20mm , the game would run smoothly.
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It’s interesting to see the game played with large single bases as you did Irregular Wars Nic. That’s something I can certainly attest to - the game men of bronze really can be played on any basing style as long as you have a system to differentiate open order and phalanx. You can even just state “base width value is x” and honestly then use any basing system. I think if I used my men on 20x20 and 40x40 mm bases and games against someone with men on 25mm circle bases and we agreed base widths meant 20mm , the game would run smoothly.
Yeah... mostly. I'd certainly agree with the last sentence you said.
However, a few issues start to come into effect with multi-based figures - perhaps accentuated by the fact Eric seems to have done all his playtesting with units having a ratio of 5:2, width to depth, while ours are 3:2.
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(https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-mkTQZPgWzxo/XNcfGmaE3wI/AAAAAAAAHMk/fguyLiL3gts2EMN4PYZFzlrs9ve5rdOogCEwYBhgL/s1600/Game%2B2%2B%25287%2529.jpg)
And game number two:
http://irregularwars.blogspot.com/2019/05/second-game-of-men-of-bronze.html (http://irregularwars.blogspot.com/2019/05/second-game-of-men-of-bronze.html)
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Excellent stuff!
I loved reading these reports. They gave me some meat to chew on as I work on FAQ and other products!
I left some comments on your blog too! Great work and thanks for your support and help!
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Wargames, Soldiers, and Strategy 103 has a review of the rules by Jeff Jones if you are looking for another opinion on them.....
https://www.karwansaraypublishers.com/wss-issue-103.html
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I just managed to listen to Meeples and Miniatures Episode 267 where they discuss Men of Bronze. Overall, I think it is a fair and nuanced review.
If you are thinking about the game and are unsure about if you want to buy it, give it a listen.....
https://meeples.wordpress.com/2019/05/17/meeples-miniatures-episode-267-its-all-greek-to-me-part-omega/
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Here is my favorite review on Amazon...
A complete waste of paper
Useless rule set unless you like ahistorical fantasy
I now know what to do differently next time! lol
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I figured some of you might find this of interst since I believe a previous commentator said something along the lines of a Greek shield is an Aspis and not a Hoplon.....
https://www.ancientworldmagazine.com/articles/the-hoplites-hoplon/
Today, I wanted to write a brief bit on a particular error that I encounter again and again despite the fact that most people by now ought to know better. It concerns the origin of the word “hoplite”, the term applied to denote a Greek heavily-armed warrior. The term itself is not without problems: it’s not used before the fifth century BC, for example, and Xenophon is able to refer to Egyptian warriors with shields also as hoplites (Anabasis 1.8.9).
In any event, the main issue is that a lot of people still claim that hoplites are named after their shield, which in Greek is supposedly called a hoplon. This mistake is so widespread that few seem to notice it any more. It still pops up frequently in academic and non-academic contexts alike. Here, let me pick an example at random. This is the entry for “hoplite” in Phil Sabin’s book Lost Battles, published originally in 2007:
Hoplite. The Greek term for heavy infantry, usually used today to refer specifically to the spearmen of Classical Greek poleis with their distinctive round ‘hoplon’ shields.
But back in 1996, J.F. Lazenby and David Whitehead wrote an article entitled “The myth of the hoplite’s hoplon”, published in Classical Quarterly 46.1, pp. 27–33. The abstract reads as follows:
“Hoplites are troops who take their name from their shields”. “The individual infantryman took his name, hoplites, from the hoplon or shield”. Such is the orthodox view. This paper will endeavour to show that its basis is inadequate. Rather, we shall argue, hoplites took their name from their arms and armour as a whole, their hopla in that all-encompassing sense; so that the original and essential meaning of the word hoplite was nothing more than “(heavily-)armed (infantry-)man”.
As the authors show, hoplon in Greek does not refer specifically to a shield, but rather to some piece, any piece, of equipment. Aspis is the typical Greek word for shield. But for some reason, ten and even twenty years after the publication of this article, the error continues to be replicated. Hopefully, this article can help set the record straight.
You can read Lazenby and Whitehead’s article over on JStor. If you don’t have access to JStor via a university library, you can sign up for a free account and read it that way. (Under no circumstances should you ever pay $19 for a single article.)
Note
Roel Konijnendijk points out that the error goes back to Diodorus. (I didn’t mention this because Lazenby & Whitehead also discuss the relevant passage on page 28, where they point out the logical fallacy of peltasts being named after their pelte and hoplites being “named after their… aspides!”).
Josho Brouwers
Josho Brouwers
Editor-in-Chief
An archaeologist by training, Josho Brouwers has a PhD in ancient Greek warfare. His PhD thesis was published in book form as Henchmen of Ares: Warriors and Warfare in Early Greece (2013).
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Here is a consolidated group of links for the new Army Lists I built for Men of Bronze:
Syracuse/Sicillian Greeks- https://bloodandspectacles.blogspot.com/2019/12/men-of-bronze-greeks-vs-carthage.html
Carthage-
https://bloodandspectacles.blogspot.com/2019/12/men-of-bronze-greeks-vs-carthage.html
Thessaly-
https://bloodandspectacles.blogspot.com/2019/11/men-of-bronze-thessaly-army-list.html
Pre-Reform Macedonia-
https://bloodandspectacles.blogspot.com/2019/12/men-of-bronze-pre-reform-macedonia.html
I think the only one left is to re-evaluate a list for Thrace and possibly Greeks in Southern Italy. In a pinch you could use the Syracusan list......
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I figured some of you might find this of interst since I believe a previous commentator said something along the lines of a Greek shield is an Aspis and not a Hoplon.....
https://www.ancientworldmagazine.com/articles/the-hoplites-hoplon/
Very interesting read! Thanks for posting...
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Here is a consolidated group of links for the new Army Lists I built for Men of Bronze:
Syracuse/Sicillian Greeks- https://bloodandspectacles.blogspot.com/2019/12/men-of-bronze-greeks-vs-carthage.html
Carthage-
https://bloodandspectacles.blogspot.com/2019/12/men-of-bronze-greeks-vs-carthage.html
Thessaly-
https://bloodandspectacles.blogspot.com/2019/11/men-of-bronze-thessaly-army-list.html
Pre-Reform Macedonia-
https://bloodandspectacles.blogspot.com/2019/12/men-of-bronze-pre-reform-macedonia.html
I think the only one left is to re-evaluate a list for Thrace and possibly Greeks in Southern Italy. In a pinch you could use the Syracusan list......
Fantastic !
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So, what other lists would you guys like to see for Men of Bronze?
I think there are possibly three more I want to cover, but I am open to hear other ideas. I still think I want to cover the following:
1. Thracian List
2. Tarantine/Magna Graecia
3. Illyrian Lists
The Tarentines and Illyrians will probably come from the Iapygian-Tarentine Wars as a mini-campaign. The Thracians might be a bit more stand-alone in nature.
However, what do you want to see?
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Iberians
Italian tribes
maybe ?
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Iberians
Italian tribes
maybe ?
I will have these guys in the Wars of the Roman Republic book from Osprey. They should work with Men of Bronze with little to no modification. :)
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excellent !
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Just finished reading my Kindle copy of Men of Bronze, very interesting. I won't get to play any time soon since I am headed out of town soon to attend the wedding of a niece. Also, we don't have many hoplite figures in our group, though I have been known to make up card units to test rules before. Do I go for 10mm to make this a totally separate project from all our DBA stuff or do 15mm DBX so it can do double-duty? A good reason to test with card units first.
I have a couple quibbles: as stated by someone else somewhere (that I can't find again), warbands seem to cost a prohibitive amount for a unit that is less impressive than cheaper peltasts. In the Kindle rules, the discipline header reads "disciple". Perhaps a special rule for the Life of Brian version? ;)
In the Platea scenario, the Persians pay a mere 8 points for their drilled Theban hoplites. A bargain price?
That said, I worked on publishing board games in a previous millennium and recall how various glitches only reveal themselves once the game has been published.
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Good insights indeed.
The reason for the points cost increase in Warband infantry was pretty simple. In test games, the Warband infantry managed to achieve objectives and win games, while Peltasts just died! I think it was because the Warband infantry had a clearer focus. Use speed to get to objectives and behind enemy units for rear/flank attacks. Meanwhile, the Peltasts often got muddled, did next to nothing, and died. Therefore, the Warband infantry seemed to be more useful than Peltasts thanks to their purity of purpose. Hence, the points cost increase. Perhaps a place where playtesting led me astray? :-X :-X :-X
However, I do agree that 4 points seems to be a better points value for them. I am testing that points cost for Wars of the Republic for similar units. So far, it seems to be working fine.
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Also added a Thracian Army list and scenario here.....
http://bloodandspectacles.blogspot.com/2020/02/men-of-bronze-thracian-army-list.html
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Not a necro, I swear! I just wanted everyone to know I have added an Etruscan list for Men of Bronze on my blog.
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-nbJ2iU40wJI/X7AgXlaMxgI/AAAAAAAAMBA/VDW88oHxJQg0s0Rwr9eABYPv-CXa2WmGwCPcBGAsYHg/s320/DSC_0065.jpg)
Most of the time, we associate the Etruscans with the rise of Rome. This is true, but the Etruscans were not just rivals of Rome, they were also early rivals of Carthage and the Greek settlers into the western parts of the Mediterranean. There was a period known as the Etruscan Expansion that brought Greeks and Etruscans into conflict. Most of the documented battles were at sea, but where there is conflict at Sea, there is also conflict on land. Since we have no remaining written (and translated) Etruscan sources, such details have likely been lost to history.
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-Guqgv6bhXyQ/X7P7xBdjaPI/AAAAAAAAMFk/6oDznaN6-F8vtXNfpcZhl-ryK2jBKMmZACPcBGAsYHg/w300-h400/IMG_0638.HEIC)
An illustration of Etruscan warriors from Warry's Warfare in the Ancient World.
However, you can see an army list for the Etruscans in Men of Bronze on the blog here:
https://bloodandspectacles.blogspot.com/2021/01/men-of-bronze-etruscans.html
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Whilst I still have to finish my basic forces for the game, I have to say that level of continued support on your part is beyond commendable. Very good read, too.
I'm definitely buying Heirs as soon as they go on next periodic WV sale.
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Thanks Szary.
In addition to updates on Men of Bronze, Osprey is looking to publish Wars of the Republic in November which will also expand on what can be done with the system.
I am also working on rules for:
1. The Viking Age- Ready to Playtest
2. Late Roman Era- Very early stages
3. Chariot Wars- Mostly complete
Is there any that interest you, and other readers of the thread in the future more than others?
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The chariot wars in particular. Is this for a big kadesh type game or something smaller scale?
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Yes, Chariot Wars does sound interesting!
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Personally, I would be way more interested in a chariot wars game than a late roman one, but I am also acutely aware that the second one is immensely more probable to sell well and garner interest. It would be immensely popular among all seven people playing in the period, through! :D
The great value of MoB is that it's centred on a specific era of history and delivers some flavour on its particularities through events and Arete. Your special rules for Etruscans or Indians are already more involved than what you get in any DBA/WMA list, which would be just differently proportioned and arranged same elements. I would hardly commit to another project centred around the Egyptian New Kingdom if it would play just as Hittites, Parthians or Gauls. Most of the ancients systems are very generic and kind of soulless.
Viking wargames are so abundant after Saga exploded that segment, that at this point I am afraid to open my refrigerator in fear of finding there another Viking-centric system. But maybe I am jaded because of my limited interest in that particular subject - it would probably sell even better than either of the other two.
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The chariot wars in particular. Is this for a big kadesh type game or something smaller scale?
Well, to be 100% clear, I say Chariot Wars but it is really focused on Assyrian and Neo-Assyria and her enemies. Therefore, no Minoans, Sumerians, and Myceneans for the most part.
The game itself is 100% scale and model agnostic so you can scale it up as big or as small as you want. Since it is a unit-on-unit game it depends on how you define a unit for yourself and all measurements are generic Measurement Units. Therefore, if you use 6mm models on 60mm x 60mm bases and each base is a unit.... well, it can get to be a very big battle if you wish! However, typically a game is 5-8 units per side, which translates to any number of models depending on what scale models you want to use!
The key feature of such a game in my mind is the following:
1. How do you make Chariots the premier weapon system, and how do you differentiate light from Heavy!
2. The Bow (and firepower) played a much larger role in Chariot Warfare than traditional Western Warfare, so how do you do that?
3. This is a transitional period! Iron weapons, Cavalry, Chariots, bows, standing armies, and even battle formations are evolving and/or new. How do you capture these changes?
4. Finally, the details on this period can be scant and hard to come by. That itself makes it very interesting and challenging at the same time.
I have started playtesting and editing these rules. However, in prep for them I do need to find some good models. I was actually hoping to go 6mm so if you have suggestions I am all for them!
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Back to Men of Bronze for a moment.....
I added Army Lists now for....
Carthage
Magna Graecia
Thessaly
Thracians
Pre-Reform Macedonians
and
Etruscans
Who else do you think would be suitable to add a list to for Men of Bronze. I was toying with the idea of Argos but I am not sure I have enough "there" there to make it work. They can be pretty much a standard City-State list.
Lydians, Aetolians, Carians? I am not sure there is enough detail to differentiate them from a standard list?
Your thoughts?
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Whilst all three would be interesting (but indeed it's hard to know whether there is enough detail to warrant an army list for Aetolia or Lydia without further research) I have two other propositions:
1) Crete enters a time of political turmoil of warring, weak and exhaused states. While much of it falls under the time covered in HtE, mechanically it seems to be more akin to MoB mechanisms of warfare than bigger, more advanced and more flexible armies of Hellenistic Empires.
2) I would love to see you take a second, closer look on Persian Empire. Maybe differentiate between satrapal armies and forces of invading monarchs? Persians in a way got a shorter end of a stick here and they were a powerful and diverse fighting force that gave Greeks a hard run for their money.
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There were mercenary/allied hoplites serving in Egyptian armies (30th dynasty vs Persia). Greeks in the Crimea and so contact with cimmerians and bosphorans.
It's been a while since I looked at the rules, so apologies if you've covered these areas or they form parts of other lists.
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Great call outs!
Revisiting Persia makes sense since they also evolved a lot.
I know little about Crete and Egypt in this timeframe, so those sound like interesting threads to pull on. Thanks guys!
Edit:
Re: Egypt- There is a lot of Late Period Egyptian action going on against the Persians and in the Wars of the Delian League, but precious little about the Egyptian forces at all!
The Battle of Pelusium (525 BCE) seems to have a lot of colorful details, just no information on the actual combatants! I have no idea how the Egyptian forces fought and their Carian, Ionian or later Athenian Greek allies integrated with the Egyptian forces? Were they Hoplites, Peltasts, skirmishers, slingers/archers, cavalry?
Who knows? Anyone got some good sources? I think in this case, I am going to need secondary sources mostly. The primary sources seem lacking in the details I would want for an army list.
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I spent some time doing initial research on Crete, and it looks like Crete during the time of Men of Bronze fell into the pretty standard model of City-state warfare captured in the main Men of Bronze book.
In the Hellenistic Period and early Roman Period it became a much more active player as it fell in and out of the orbit of Ptolemaic Egypt, the Romans, the Rhodians, or others. Therefore, I am not sure there is much "There" to add for Crete to Men of Bronze at the moment.
Next up, I am working on a second look at the Persians as they evolved over time AND I was thinking of putting together a campaign book for the Ionian Revolt......
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My most recent Line-of-Battle on the Blood and Spectacles blog was for the Etruscans.
I spent a bit of time kitbashing together various Victrix models to try and put an Etruscan unit together that had axe men, and hoplites with javelins in hand. Here is what they came out looking like....
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-WZg69nRcscw/YDUdheWy5MI/AAAAAAAANJ4/loZvh-MTsQ86su3NYrvFSK7aiMXiHzf8ACPcBGAsYHg/w640-h480/IMG_2570.HEIC)
Sadly, I thought I had some left over shield transfers from my Greeks, but I could not find them for these guys.
Since they are kit bashed from Mercenary Hoplites, Republican Romans, Spartans, Greek Light Cavalry, and Vikings they are probably not 100% "authentic" since I ma using gear and weapons from across a broad expanse of time. However, I think they will do the job of showing the "Disruption" special rules and look unique enough on the table to make it work.
Your thoughts?
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Guys
I love these rules.
Easy to read , play quite well , and are quite elegant.
There is one thing for us that really stands out, and no one else has mentioned .
That is the "Look " :o :o :o :o :o :o
We found that even 4 Hoplite units a side , plus a few skirmishers and a cav unit or two , with some nice terrain , and bingo it looks like a Museum quality diorama lol lol
We were quite surprised how few figures (80 each ) could look so good ., without much effort.
It also gives you some use for those nice terrain pieces you may have that dont really fit in other games .
Cheers
Cheers .
however that everyone has either not talked about
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One question from an owner, but not really playing it (maybe it could happen). Is there any good army-Lists for Sumerian and akkadians???
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army-Lists for Sumerian and akkadians???
Definitely people, cuz, 'To Ur is human' lol lol lol
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One question from an owner, but not really playing it (maybe it could happen). Is there any good army-Lists for Sumerian and akkadians???
Nope, not for Men of Bronze...... that is too early for the rule set at the moment.
Thanks to everyone's help, Thanks to everyone's help, I published a supplement on Wargame Vault for Men of Bronze. This includes all the new Lines of Battle for areas outside of Greece proper, the FAQ, and Campaign rules for you to play.
To pick-up the supplement, you can go to the Wargame Vault Here:
https://www.wargamevault.com/product/349063/Hercules-Abroad--Men-of-Bronze-Supplement
(https://dtrpg-public-files.s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/images/11064/349063-thumb140.jpg)
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"One question from an owner, but not really playing it (maybe it could happen). Is there any good army-Lists for Sumerian and akkadians???"
...army lists for battle games but can easily be adapted to MoB...
https://sumer2sargon.wordpress.com/
:D :D ;)
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"One question from an owner, but not really playing it (maybe it could happen). Is there any good army-Lists for Sumerian and akkadians???"
...army lists for battle games but can easily be adapted to MoB...
https://sumer2sargon.wordpress.com/ (https://sumer2sargon.wordpress.com/)
:D :D ;)
Thank you very much, great Website with a lot of information.