Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => Interwar => Topic started by: Von Stroheim on November 27, 2018, 02:27:25 PM
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According to their Facebook Page Empress have six new packs of Freikorps from Tsuba
https://www.facebook.com/mailempressminiaturescom/
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Amazing stuff. Just got the spartakists absolutely lovely range. And no backpacks and finally also some longcoats.
The only thing is the puttees. Most of the photographs show the freikorps with boots and the council soldiers with either boots or loose trouser legs. Still, these must be the best Freikorps released to date.
Next Berlin police with shako's?
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Police would be a really good addition to the range.
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These Freikorps are excellent. Could also be used in a very late WW 1 German army. Beautiful figures.
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Amazing stuff. Just got the spartakists absolutely lovely range. And no backpacks and finally also some longcoats.
The only thing is the puttees. Most of the photographs show the freikorps with boots and the council soldiers with either boots or loose trouser legs. Still, these must be the best Freikorps released to date.
Next Berlin police with shako's?
Yep, guess I get to practice my green stuff skills in makeing some boots.
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Will be buying some of these but principally to expand my interwar Czech forces.
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No shortage of puttees in 1919.
(http://www.warrelics.eu/forum/attachments/imperial-germany-austro-hungary/307133d1329322860-january-1919-uprising-berlin-january-revolt-3.jpg)
(http://static.akpool.de/images/cards/50/501694.jpg)
Some shako-helmeted police would be most welcome too I think. I don't think the 1919 uniform would have differed too much from that of the slightly later SiPo ('Green Police') would it?
Adding to Carlos's comment, the range also offers some reasonable options for opponents to the Bohemian Minis Czechs. If only that small range was shown a bit more love by its owner.
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Great minis
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If you GSed on jackboots, these would male fairly accurate WW2 Hungarians (barring the Bergmann SMGs), at least in the early war period
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Nah, they wouldn’t. Firstly, cos most Hungarian infantry didn’t use jackboots, rather they used breeches with a distinctive raper, tight along the calves. Secondly, because they are carrying the wrong arms and equipment. I looked at all the WW1 German ranges some time ago to see if Hungarian proxies were a worthwhile prospect. Head swaps on the Great Escape Hungarian range is probably your best bet.
They can make reasonable interwar Czechs with minor adaption. The Czech army wore puttees, carried Mauser rifles and some of them were still wearing the vz20 steel helmet, which was essentially the old Austrian stahlhelm, with or without the addition of a comb along the top. As these are Paul Hicks sculpts they will match the existing range of Czechs he sculpted.
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I did not know, or forgot that Mr. Hicks made Cezchs. What manufacturer carries them?
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I did not know, or forgot that Mr. Hicks made Cezchs. What manufacturer carries them?
https://www.horcata.eu/category/czechoslovak-infantry/
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Emil has promised to make some more too.
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Besides the obvious cost, I'd imagine the availability of Mr Hicks is an issue; so many ranges rely on him.
If one man was ever in more need of a cloning, it's him.
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Besides the obvious cost, I'd imagine the availability of Mr Hicks is an issue; so many ranges rely on him.
If one man was ever in more need of a cloning, it's him.
...Kickstarter?
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...Kickstarter?
I'm down!
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In addition to the stahlhelm Freikorps, they also released a K66 Schupo Sonderwagen 21 armored car.
http://www.empressminiatures.com/userimages/procart51.htm
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And here's a picture of one of those beasts "in situ." Evidently these vehicles were manufactured from 1921 well into the 1930's for use by the German police (including the Landespolizei Bayern ((State Police of Bavaria)).
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-Yp65g5zLV4Y/ULAICbYJdvI/AAAAAAAAB7A/HEqEu8HA3AU/s1600/Schupo-Sonderwagen-21-Ehrhardt.jpg
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Interesting choice given it was a vehicle that wasn’t produced until two years after the German Revolution finished. The clue is in the ‘21’ part of the original name.
Are they planning a further range based on the Beer Hall Putsch?
I suppose it would be a useful addition to anyone planning an interwar Reichsheer army. Maybe someone will come along with the figures for such.
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An E-V/4 would have been better. Demand was such that they went back into production for the police in 1919.
1st Corps do one.
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Indeed. Actually someone else made one as well. Black Army? Tobsen 77? It was someone on here IIRC.
The fun toys you want for the historical version of the 'German Revolution' would, unsurprisingly, be entirely Great War vintage. Ex-British and the odd Renault beutepanzer, Erhardt armored cars, an A7V and Daimler lorries, some fitted up as gun trucks. Most, if not all, of that is available already available from various sources.
Still, new toys are always welcome.
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Yep Black army makes one. https://black-army-productions.myshopify.com/collections/engines-of-war/products/e-v-4-ehrhardt-armored-car
Now What I am wandering is if the Spartacist mins will work well for the Red Ruhr, or other add hock units nationalist units in the Baltic states.
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In addition to the stahlhelm Freikorps, they also released a K66 Schupo Sonderwagen 21 armored car.
http://www.empressminiatures.com/userimages/procart51.htm
Empress already had that armored car available. It was just buried in a list of armored cars and tanks under Jazz Age Imperialism. Putting it with the Tsuba figures makes it easy to find, though.
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Yep Black army makes one. https://black-army-productions.myshopify.com/collections/engines-of-war/products/e-v-4-ehrhardt-armored-car
Now What I am wandering is if the Spartacist mins will work well for the Red Ruhr, or other add hock units nationalist units in the Baltic states.
The short answer is yes. I have some of them and they are sufficiently generic to represent any German faction with access to military kit for the period in question. Some of the Germans could easily be used as German equipped Poles (ex Polnische Wehrmacht).
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Good to know.
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A useful thread on Freikorps armour here:
https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/152276-german-tank-units-and-the-freikorps/
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Glanced over the Osprey Feikorps book at the local library on the weekend in response to the new figures. The book mentions that the Reds outnumbered the Freikorps, but that the latter were better trained and disciplined.
Anyone have any comments or anything to add to this?
Just wondering about appropriate rules. One of the challenging things is that the fighting does really appear to be one-sided and the Freikorps always won quickly.
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Not unlike the Spanish Civil War, the Reds were a mix of ideologically opposed elements (KPD, SDP, USDP etc), whose main strength was in workers militias. When you have one section who want to completely bring down a society and re-build it, another who want to reform it, another who want to partially do the same but through the democratic process and finally the 'coffee shop anarchists' who just seemingly wanted to theorise, then it was going to be an up-hill struggle.
Their opponents on the other hand enjoyed the support of central government and the 'establishment'. They were in the main almost wholly ex-soldiers, with considerable experience and competence with their personal and heavy weapons. They were typically serving in formal units under their wartime commanders. Their ideology was simply to kill all the Reds, no ideological debate necessary.
That's my understanding, such as it is.
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The Reds did have the support of the Volksmarine Division of former sailors who would be trained and disciplined - to the extent that discipline still held up given that they were now all "liberated".
It would be challenging to come up with rules which reflected the different composition of the Red side, but yet gave them a solid chance of winning a game.
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The Volksmarines sat out the Spartacist Revolt iirc.
I suppose the degree of political differences would vary by the level of game you're playing. It used to be popular to try to introduce similar facets into SCW games, up to the point of units changing sides... which when you have such polarisation of politics is a bit ridiculous.
Any minor political differences with the guy next to you at the barricade tends to be forgotten when the real opposition comes round the corner.
I think scenarios that allow the Reds to gain a political victory, even though they might lose the game in terms of the military aspect, would level the playing field. Rosa Luxemburg became a martyr and rallying cry just by getting thrown in the Landwehr Canal, so maybe the 'heroic defence of wherever' might draw support too.
There would be a certain degree of satisfaction in holding back the tanks, flamethrowers and what-have-you, that your power-gaming opponent throws at you, if you could get points for that orphanage he damaged, or that you held them off for ten minutes instead of five, allowing the local committee to make their escape by tram.
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Been toying with this period for a while, nothing to show for it but failed buildings and undercoated figures, but for rules I thought that Triumph and Tragedy would work well, not least because:
http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=g9ipblqhppcrsoglv0sbsiara7&topic=70521.0
I’ve used T&T for VBCW and RCW and it’s worked well.
Looking forward to these new figures and the Police would be very welcome.
Edit: and yes, as Arlequin points out, structuring the scenarios to include the political/social goals rather than just number of dead is the way to go.
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I'm not familiar w T&T and the link is dead.
If I don't miss my guess, the Germany 1919 troop types would have different skill sets than the SCW leftists. In Spain, almost no one had military training outside the Foreign Legion. In Germany, I would guess that 90%+ of guys under 40 had army experience by 1919. Universal conscription plus 4 years of total war. Whether the leftist guys cared to take orders and do what they were told might be another question.
OTOH they would probably have been committed. Anyone who didn't care much about politics simply melted away and went home when his unit reached Germany. Only the hardcore lefties and righties kept fighting.
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The modern left vs right devide is also kind of off. Many troops of the Freikorp were not just proto-fascist. (Of course their were many who were)
They came home from the war, and seen a bunch of red banners with folks trying to destroy traditional institutions, while the government and police set passively by.
Then combine that with say the excess of the Bavarian commune and you have a resape for many centrists to take up arms.
As for the volks marine divison, they really didn't seem interested in the revolution as a whole and as pointed out, sat out the Spartakist revolt.
Now also don't forget the Freikorp was eventually fought to a standstill in the east by Estonia and Latvia national forces. Before being forced to return to German by treaty.
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If my figures are correct, the German Army was 4.5m men at the Armistice, while the adult male population was around 11.3m (67m total pop), so around 40% of fighting age men had served.
Certainly though that was different to the SCW, where men with military training were few and far between in 1936. However the SCW was a civil war of escalating military action, with each side introducing conscription and at their largest boasted formal armies of around 0.5m each. This was opposed to there being a military of just 125k in 1936.
As an indication of militancy amongst the German left, 300,000 workers took part in the general strike of 1917. Twelve million were involved in the one of March 1920. Not every worker carried a rifle, but then neither did many of the people killed by Freikorps units; just heckling was sufficient to draw fire.
The Red Ruhr Army that formed in response to the Kapp Putsch was c. 50k strong (that's how many rifles were confiscated), with some 300k supporting non-coms. Strength of the Reichswehr in 1920 was 350,000 (later reduced to 100k), some 250k were in the various Freikorps units. I've no idea of how many of either went to the Ruhr, however the Freikorps/Reichswehr lost c. 250, the Reds some 1000, not all of whom were combatants.
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This is my first question re the fighting. It appears that the Reds had overwhelming popular support, but far fewer actually showed up for the fighting. IIRC, the popular strike in Berlin a few weeks before the Spartacist coup was 700,000 people. And the provisional government fled to Weimar, which was conservative and garrisoned by Freikorps troops, in order to avoid Berlin and the large amount of Red support there.
It's difficult to see why Germany didn't go the way of Russia, given the apparent amount of Rec support.
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I'd imagine it was a lack of weapons that was the limiting factor. The Army had almost wholly returned as formed disciplined bodies and still under their officers in Germany. In Russia the Army had mutinied and was pretty much the Revolution. Somewhat of a generalisation, but essentially the difference between the two.
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Just watched a one hour youtube video of a talk by Tim Mulligan in 2013 to the Western Front Association re the German naval mutinies.
The Wilhelmshaven mutiny in 1918 never even spread to shore. The one in Kiel did, and included some soldiers. There doesn't seem to have been much of a political motive. Only about 7% to 8% of the sailors had read the political pamphlet circulating in the fleet. Differences in quality of food on the big ships, and sailors overhearing plans by the officers for suicidal and pointless final battle triggered the mutiny. Red agitation not so much.
The People's Naval Division had only about 1800 active men out of a theoretical 3500. And 2/3 to 3/4 of them weren't even sailors, but instead were civilians and disbanded soldiers who joined up. The People's Naval Division seemed to be more interested in occupying buildings to insure that the government would pay them than in joining an actual revolution.
Anecdotes such as the one about revolutionaries delaying occupation of a building until the proper authorization was obtained and about revolutionaries respecting "keep off the grass" signs makes one wonder whether or not there was a critical mass of Germans who were temperamentally suited to revolution.
I'm hard pressed to see a point in time when a real revolution might have started. Clearly 1919 was too early. Perhaps it might have happened in 1920 after the Kapp Putsch, if the general strike hadn't been so successful. Or perhaps the late 20's when the center was collapsing and politics were becoming more extreme. It's difficult to see any point at which the Reds ever had the organization, leadership, arms, or ammunition to make a viable revolution.
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Seems an accurate summation to me. My impression is that much of the flashpoints were relatively spontaneous reactions to 'something' and rarely with adequate planning. The Freikorps were the fire brigades sent to put the flames of possible revolution out; some fires were bigger and spread better than others.
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I'm not familiar w T&T and the link is dead.
So it is, my apologies. I have the original if you'd like it forwarded.
As to T&T, it's based around small groups each with a very distinct leader but the child thread in Pulp should have enough to give you the outliners.
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Some interesting interwar (mainly) police vehicles on my blog:
- https://arteis.wordpress.com/2012/09/16/odd-interwar-german-polizei-vehicles/
- https://arteis.wordpress.com/2012/09/18/more-german-polizei-oldtimers-from-the-interwar-years/
For example:
(https://arteis.files.wordpress.com/2012/09/man-1926.jpg)
(https://arteis.files.wordpress.com/2012/09/motorcycle.jpg)
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And a jolly tune to commorate the works of the Grüne Polizei:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=FMT4dJ_7WWs
One of the best Brecht/Weil collaborations and a fabulous anti-war song.
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In addition to the stahlhelm Freikorps, they also released a K66 Schupo Sonderwagen 21 armored car.
http://www.empressminiatures.com/userimages/procart51.htm
That really is an ugly pieces of machinery.
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The different Freikorps were organized,armed and run by General Groener, the second in command of the Reichswehr.
He made a secret deal with the Socialdemocrats (Government) (Noske), the Socialdemocrats would fight the Communists and then Reichwehr would provide the muscles through the Freikorps, a very smart way to avoid the Russian turmoil and civil war without involving the army.
The weapons came from secret Reichwehr depots, Roehm was one of those, who distributed the weapons. The government paid salaries and such for the Freikorps.
The first Freikorps were picked, former front-line soldiers, later mainly students (very often law-students). With several universities it was a demand that the students joined right-wing organizations like the Freikorps to be allowed studying.
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The Freikorps were known as the 'Black Reichswehr' and enabled Germany to have an army in excess of the 100,000 allowed under the Versailles Treaty.
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The Netflix TV drama "Babylon Berlin" (a must-see for anyone interested in interwar Germany) includes a brief shot of an armoured car in the 'BlutMai' demonstration scene:
(https://www.rbb24.de/content/dam/rbb/rbb/rbb24/2018/babylon-berlin/BB_Drehorte_Neue_Berliner_Strasse-14.jpg.jpg)
Berlin police are shown correctly uniformed in blue rather than green:
(https://www.rbb24.de/content/dam/rbb/rbb/rbb24/2018/babylon-berlin/BB_Drehorte_Neue_Berliner_Strasse-11.jpg.jpg/size=708x398.jpg)
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Babylon Berlin is a touch after the heyday of the Spartacists and the Freikorps, but well demonstrates the political tensions that continued to plague Germany.
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Just watched the first six episodes of Babylon Berlin yesterday. While true that it's a decade later, the attention to details and uniforms is magnificent.
For what I've seen in photo's, the Freikorps in Berlin used Garford Putilov, Izhorski-Fiat, Austin and at leat one modified Lancia armoured cars.
(https://i.redd.it/rp2rgy4vipf11.png)
(http://www.46680.mrsite.com/USERIMAGES/IZHORSKIFIAT.JPG)
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I have discovered that Brigade games make some suitable decals for this period.
http://brigadegames.3dcartstores.com/RCW-White-Skulls-Decals_p_3566.html (http://brigadegames.3dcartstores.com/RCW-White-Skulls-Decals_p_3566.html)
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Anecdotes such as the one about revolutionaries delaying occupation of a building until the proper authorization was obtained and about revolutionaries respecting "keep off the grass" signs makes one wonder whether or not there was a critical mass of Germans who were temperamentally suited to revolution.
All I can think of is the old (probably apocryphal) Lenin jape about "There will never be a revolution in Germany. The Germans will only storm a railway station if they have first queued to buy a platform ticket."
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Many thanks to Roly for the tip off about Babylon Berlin. It’s very good and I’ve been binge watching it for mch of the week. The only irritation is the god awful dubbed voices. Why they couldn’t have gone with subtitles bears me, Netflix have done it before. It’s nice to see another take on Ernst Gennat as a character.
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When we saw it on Netflix we had it with subtitles.
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Many thanks to Roly for the tip off about Babylon Berlin. It’s very good and I’ve been binge watching it for mch of the week. The only irritation is the god awful dubbed voices. Why they couldn’t have gone with subtitles bears me, Netflix have done it before. It’s nice to see another take on Ernst Gennat as a character.
I'm afraid you're showing your age Carlos ;) If you are watching it on Netflix you can toggle German audio with English subtitles on or off in the little menu that pops up when you pause. It is a much better way to watch the show too in my opinion.
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All I can think of is the old (probably apocryphal) Lenin jape about "There will never be a revolution in Germany. The Germans will only storm a railway station if they have first queued to buy a platform ticket."
My visit to Frankfurt a few years back had me open-mouthed with shock and awe as the locals lined up and waited at the cross walk until the lights changed - DESPITE THE FACT THAT THERE WERE NO CARS VISIBLE IN ANY DIRECTION!!!
On a fine early autumn afternoon, NO-ONE PLAYED A CAR STEREO WITH THE WINDOW ROLLED DOWN!!!
All the garbage cans were lined up neatly at precisely the same distance from the curb.
It's true. Germans love doing what they are told.
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”It's true. Germans love doing what they are told.”
Truth be told, most people do. It’s how societies function to a large extent.
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;)
exactly
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By the by, not all Germans received the memo.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=VdsPft_uaNg
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Nena Hagen was born in East Germany, under the SED regime. Any questions ? :D ;)
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My visit to Frankfurt a few years back had me open-mouthed with shock and awe as the locals lined up and waited at the cross walk until the lights changed - DESPITE THE FACT THAT THERE WERE NO CARS VISIBLE IN ANY DIRECTION!!!
Also in Austria. I once crossed the street with red lights. Same situation: no traffic at all. People gave me bad looks as if I had just stabbed an old lady. :D :D
Back on topic: I read the other day, i think on the BoB FB group, about the Belgian Armoured Car detachment that ended up on the Eastern Front. Apparently one Minerva car was captured by the Germans and it is said it was used in 1919 Berlin.
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FWIW, this - waiting for the lights to change in spite of the absence of traffic - happens in Sweden, too, or did when I was there a long time ago. There may be a law about it, but I'm not sure.
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Looking around for any event which might have sparked a division of the German army and conflict with well armed paramilitaries, I started reading on the topic of a possible restoration of the monarchy. Kaiser Wilhelm was certainly interested. And I wonder how much of the German army might have supported a coup to restore the Kaiser in the early 1920's.
Unfortunately (or perhaps fortunately) for Kaiser Wilhelm, the idea of a restoration was not generally popular in Germany. That lack of popularity might have been enough to divide the country into a civil war that might have lasted a couple of years, or at least until France and Britain put a stop to it.
As an alternative to Kaiser Wilhelm or one of his sons, Prince Rupprecht of Bavaria was possibly the most popular of the previous German royal families, and might have served as a focal point for an attempt at restoring a monarchy.
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Crown-Prince Wilhelm might be (was even) the focus of anti-Weimar intrigue. He was a Stalhelm member and Hitler visited him on occasion.
Something set in 1926 might have legs; well before Hitler has any real power and before Wilhelm realises restoring the monarchy is not in Hitler's plans and after the failure of the 1926 Referendum.
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My skepticism about building a decent, balanced campaign for this period (and indeed the whole 1890-1930 era) battles with how damned nice the Paul Hicks figures are to look at!
My latest hair-brained pipe dream is how I could use the Hicks / Empress Royal Navy figures in a German Revolution campaign. Perhaps Capt Sir Seamus Bond RN (James Bond's father) sets out to rescue Rosa Luxemburg from the Freikorps for Lloyd George to use her cunningly as a double-agent to undermine Lenin.......
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It is a dilemma, I know. However if you dig a little there are some close calls. If it's before 1935 you can rule out the new breed of AFVs and include things like the Leichttraktor and Lanchester 6x4, alongside older vehicles.
The French and Belgians occupied the Ruhr in 1923-25 and the Ruhr was occupied by the British and French until 1930 in addition. German rearmament actually got serious from 1928.
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I doubt the British would try to rescue Rosa Luxemburg or any other "Reds." They had already intervened against the Bolshies and feared the spread of Revolution.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SVi3-PrQ0pY
;)
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I'm afraid you're showing your age Carlos ;) If you are watching it on Netflix you can toggle German audio with English subtitles on or off in the little menu that pops up when you pause. It is a much better way to watch the show too in my opinion.
Cheers Jack! Nic told me you had the solution. Alas, I’m only 33 ;)
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If you want to try out the Reichswehr and its toys, you might be better off looking at the Poles as potential opponents. The General Staff actively planned and trained for war against the Poles. Makes for an interesting reversal of roles, an aggressive and rather authoritarian Poland, whose military far exceeds Germany’s in terms of men and materiel against a democratic Germany, waging a defensive war.
If you are interested in the period, I’d urge you to get hold of a copy of James Corum’s excellent study of the Reichswehr, The Roots of Blitzkrieg: Hans von Seeckt and German Military Reform.
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Thanks, but I'm guessing it's full of those fact things and they ruin everything.
Poland is indeed a good option and the French were aghast when the Poles were pushing for a Pre-emptive attack on Germany in the Mid-30s.
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Thanks, but I'm guessing it's full of those fact things and they ruin everything.
Poland is indeed a good option and the French were aghast when the Poles were pushing for a Pre-emptive attack on Germany in the Mid-30s.
Not a widely known fact.
Would have been a good idea in some ways. OTOH, even if the attack were successful and Hitler removed, the German extreme right nationalists would simply have become stronger and more resolute. Indeed, it was the predominant political force in Germany after 1930 - with or without Hitler.
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A book I always find useful for mid 1930s German uniforms, it includes military, police and various paramilitary uniforms.
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And besides the Poles, you can fight in the Baltics : assist the Finnish Whites against the Finnish Red Guard in the 1918-19 civil war (the Finnish Jaeger Battalion, which had fought for the Germans in WW 1, returned home to fight for the Whites; various German elements under von der Goltz supported the Whites); in concert with Estonian and Latvian forces, fight Bolshevik troops invading the "Baltic Dukedom" (Estonia and Latvia); fight against the Latvians in their war for independence.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SVi3-PrQ0pY
;)
Good one! :)
But some of us are partly constrained by our preference for history. If I decide to paint up a unit of Hydra's Retro Raygun Valkeeries, I might have to pit them against a historical unit of 1919 freikorps, just to keep things rooted in history... ;)
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Would have been a good idea in some ways. OTOH, even if the attack were successful and Hitler removed, the German extreme right nationalists would simply have become stronger and more resolute. Indeed, it was the predominant political force in Germany after 1930 - with or without Hitler.
The Poles didn't have a 'Hitler Problem' as such, just that they knew that they would be fighting the Germans sooner or later and better to do it before they re-armed fully. Poland had been partly carved out of Germany after all and it doesn't take a rocket scientist to predict they would want some or all of it back, whoever was in charge.
Like the Six Day War in latter times, the idea was to give a severe thrashing out, so as to make the idea unthinkable to future German leaders; we all know how that worked out for the Israelis though.
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If you are going to fight in the 1930's then the Freikorps (and/or late WW 1 German) figures aren't suitable. Fine for conflicts into the early 1920's.
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Indeed, although as nobody does the Weimar style uniform, they could be the basis of conversion, at least you have the right tin hats.
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Due to the breast pockets on the Reichheer uniform, might be better off using early war WW II in light equipment :
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ClLmis2UkAAx_nk.jpg
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/31/2d/dd/312dddfe3097a59b6d74106e94d32659.jpg
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I think I'd rather add breast pockets and have the WWI style helmet. The MG13 being the standard LMG until the MG34 appeared is more of an issue and indeed later figures have the Kar 98, rather than the long Mauser.
Anachronistic perhaps, but the Freikorps look the part of 'not WWII Germans'.
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I ran into the same trouble when creating my '35-'37 Nazi pulp force, and I really did try to get serious about historical accuracy as a fun sort of challenge.
While I ended up heavily converting a fair number of figures from scratch, sculpting entire M36 German uniforms over some plainer Copplestone figures (really there aren't many differences between the original M33 tunic and the M36 which formed the standard until WWII began the process of simplification), I did end up with a wild mix of figures. I also built my own MG 34 on tripod and sculpted a MP 34 for my Feldwebel.
I did give in and allowed some minor anachronisms like a couple of MP38's, which were TECHNICALLY issued in VERY small numbers in '37 for testing (though as I have not painted the force yet, in theory I could still convert them... it's the one thing which still bugs me). I also used early WWII bits for the non-weapon kit (from WG's Blitzkrieg early war Germans sprue), which I THINK were mostly indistinguishable from earlier equipment when viewed at 28mm scale (WWI and WWII canteens barely show any difference - if at all, for example).
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If you need an excuse for freikorps Germans, apart from the Baltics I think they also were present in the Ukraine after the Brest-Litovsk treaty. They 'may' have been fighting white nationalists, Makhno's Cossack anarchists, bolsheviks. From there it's a small step to the Back of Beyond. A small detachment may have ended up as mercenaries in the Caucasus, the Crimea and further. ;)
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If you need an excuse for freikorps Germans, apart from the Baltics I think they also were present in the Ukraine after the Brest-Litovsk treaty. They 'may' have been fighting white nationalists, Makhno's Cossack anarchists, bolsheviks. From there it's a small step to the Back of Beyond. A small detachment may have ended up as mercenaries in the Caucasus, the Crimea and further. ;)
I mean, Copplestone even has a pack of Freikorps-looking "German mercenaries" in his BoB range.
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Yeah I know. I also painted the Germans in tropical helmets as a rather fantastical unit. I tried to convert the Turks into freikorps but that proved to be an insane project, so I'm glad Tsuba released these.
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Do any of you use the Pulp Figures late WW1 Germans as freikorps?
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Do any of you use the Pulp Figures late WW1 Germans as freikorps?
Sure, Great War Miniatures has also suitable Germans with light equipment
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In terms of alternative history World War One - the "revolutionary sailors" would be perfectly good as Imperial German sailors with perhaps a couple of officer types to be added.
I could imagine them defending the legation in Peking or some other exotic location. Or raiding some seaside village in England or France to kidnap a VIP.
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In terms of alternative history World War One - the "revolutionary sailors" would be perfectly good as Imperial German sailors with perhaps a couple of officer types to be added.
I could imagine them defending the legation in Peking or some other exotic location. Or raiding some seaside village in England or France to kidnap a VIP.
Yes. I was thinking of a German version of the "Sand Pebbles" set in about 1912 to 1914, featuring the, SMS Otter, recently arrived on the Yangtze. Wouldn't use the submachine guns or MG-08/15 for that. Might work up a scenario loosely based on the 1926 Wanshien incident (look up HMS Cockchafer).
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In terms of alternative history World War One - the "revolutionary sailors" would be perfectly good as Imperial German sailors with perhaps a couple of officer types to be added.
I could imagine them defending the legation in Peking or some other exotic location. Or raiding some seaside village in England or France to kidnap a VIP.
Or, if boring old history is your thing, intervening against Venezuela and Morocco in 1902 and 1911 respectively.
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I know this isn't perhaps the right board but you could always inject some pulp/mythos with German sailors during the war stumbling on a forgotten island/abandoned ship and investigating.
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I know this isn't perhaps the right board but you could always inject some pulp/mythos with German sailors during the war stumbling on a forgotten island/abandoned ship and investigating.
Facts beats fiction ;)
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/SMS_Emden
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Perhaps Capt Sir Seamus Bond RN (James Bond's father) sets out to rescue Rosa Luxemburg from the Freikorps for Lloyd George to use her cunningly as a double-agent to undermine Lenin.......
I believe that almost happened, but his son went instead and got the wrong Rosa. The encounter changed his views on room service for good, apparently.
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Yes, she had her kicks. ;)
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That's a very pointed comment.
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No, it was her substitute he got (Sub Rosa).
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Either way, a celebration seems called for:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKCsZc37esU
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It seems that everything is coming up Rosas.
Of course Rosas never speak.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OHVhL5uYLrk
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Sounds like the War of the Rosas.
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Are there useful ToE's for late WW One and early 1920's German infantry?
The WW1 rules "Mud and Blood" is pretty vague on this topic.
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Take a look at Pygmy Wars website for TO&Es from the Baltic wars:
http://pygmy-wars.50megs.com/pygmywars.com/military/militarypages.html
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Take a look at Pygmy Wars website for TO&Es from the Baltic wars:
http://pygmy-wars.50megs.com/pygmywars.com/military/militarypages.html
Thinking more about platoon level skirmish games.
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I believe it varied between different unit types, but one organisation I've seen has platoons with 2 rifle squads and 2 light machine gun squads, each of 9 men. The LMG squads had a single MG08/15.
The first platoon in a company also had a rifle-grenadier squad, also of 9 men. The third platoon had a hand grenade squad, likewise of 9 men.
There were four companies to a battalion, at which level there was also a machine gun company and a granatenwerfer platoon (4 launchers).
I would imagine, but do not know, that the extra grenadier squads were done away with after the war and the four squads in each platoon increased in size slightly. Five squads of nine doesn't look as good as four squads of an even number on a parade ground.
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Bruce Gudmundsson, in his seminal work Stormtroop Tactics, notes that in the 1917-18 period German company commanders had a great deal of autonomy in how they organized their companies. One of the limiting factors was how many MG05/15s they had per company: the initial allotment was two per infantry company. Gudmundsson notes that it was soon increased to three and then four; by the end of 1917 some companies on the western front had six, while most companies on the eastern front had to make do with one or two. Gudmundsson notes that as the number of light MGs increased, the company commanders found it necessary to parcel them out to their infantry platoons. This led to the development of three types of squads within the platoon: light MG squad (authorized strength of 8: gunner and one or two assistants; four or five men with rifles/carbines and grenades); rifle squad; assault squad. In some units starting in the winter of 1917-18, the lt. MG squad developed into the Einheits Gruppe (lt. MG team and 4-8 man rifle/grenadier team), which was capable of providing both its own covering fire and maneuver element.
How disparately organized German platoons could be in this (experimental) period is illustrated by Gudmundsson, who cites the very different 1918 TO&Es of two different companies in the same regiment (Bavarain Life Guards). Quoting Gudmundsson:
One company is divided into five platoons - three identical "battle platoons," an "expansion platoon," and a reserve. The battle platoons each have two Einheits Gruppen (see above) and an assault squad. The reserve contains two specialist squads (no further information), a small recon squad, and a grenade launcher squad (this probably would be one or two granatenwerfer 16). The expansion platoon contained four spare NCOs, 16 spare men, and the company armorer.
The other company had four platoons (three "line" platoons and a Hqs platoon). The three "line" platoons each have two rifle squads and two light MG squads. In addition to these squads, one of the "line" platoons also has a granatenwerfer squad, and another of the "line" platoons has an assault squad (8 men). The Hqs platoon also includes an assault squad (smaller, only 4 men) and a small recon squad.
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Fascinating!
The expansion platoon contained four spare NCOs, 16 spare men, and the company armorer.
I initially misread this as "and the company sorcerer." I blame LAF! lol
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And those many a weird great war projects were inspired by this miss reading. lol
Fascinating!
I initially misread this as "and the company sorcerer." I blame LAF! lol
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Appreciate the hard work and knowledge of the guys that supplied those platoon TO&E's!
The einheits squads are especially interesting, as they anticipate the mid 30's development of uniform sections containing both an lmg group and movement / assault group in all armies.
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It wasn't a Mid-'30s development, the French were organised to do 'fire and movement' (or bounding overwatch if you prefer) within squads and doing it by 1918. Because France was seen as 'THE' Army of Europe and had 'won' the Great War, its tactics were studied and their ideas taken up by other armies in the '20s & '30s.
The 'square' platoon shown above, of two LMG sections and two maneouvre/rifle sections, or something like it, allowed fire and movement by squads. Britain's Army for one was still organised to fight in that manner into '37.
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The Germans took lemons and made lemonade. As the war progressed and casualties mounted, the number of riflemen in the battalions diminished too. The German solution was to increase the number of machine guns (including light machine guns) assigned to the battalions, thereby actually increasing firepower even as manpower decreased. Often German company commanders didn't have the luxury of separate organization for the light machine guns, and inadvertently that led to the Einheits Gruppe and greater tactical flexibility than could be displayed with the distinction between rifle and light machine gun squads. This was, however, a period of make-do and tactical and organizational experimentation. Heavy machine guns were also often delegated down to companies (vice being controlled at the battalion level - as they had been in the early phases of the war).
And for both late war Germans and the Freikorps, casualties and losses of equipment meant "official" TO&Es were often aspirational and notional - they made do with what they had and reorganized in the field if required. As a young infantry lieutenant in the 1970's, with men often out at schools, on leave and sick call, the normal practise in platoon field training was that if you had less than 4 men in a fire team then you often merged that fire team into the squad's other fire team.
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https://www.facebook.com/BerlinWartourist/photos/ms.c.eJwtyMkNACAMA7CNUNMjIfsvhkD4adhojEosE1x4wcmuYEb~;EHUjtg8ELgov.bps.a.521866191261252/1991415737639616/?type=3&theater
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Cool, thanks for sharing.
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Fascinating photo. Is it Berlin or Munich ? We see two MG08/15 lt. mgs and a flamethrower (note how the wand operator either has his boots untucked or seemingly lacks puttees). And the fellow in the center of the photo is quite interesting as he is wearing his pickelhaube (uncovered, no less) and stohwasser gaiters (rather than the puttees of his comrades). I think he may be a medic (looks like he has medic pouches, and the white armband - which is partially obscured - is in the correct position on his left arm and seems to have what could be a cross).
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It was posted on a FB page called "Berlin War Tourist" which specializes in then-and-now photos of Berlin during both World Wars (usually WW2 / 1945) and current.
See also...
https://www.alamyimages.fr/photo-image-les-troupes-gouvernementales-pendant-la-revolte-de-spartacus-1919-37005749.html?fbclid=IwAR3Wu-Aa4v-fvw_c5EcYzRpXrRgrYM-HodZdJ6Ljr5zKCdUjpHD91TsFAVw
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Fascinating photo. Is it Berlin or Munich ? We see two MG08/15 lt. mgs and a flamethrower (note how the wand operator either has his boots untucked or seemingly lacks puttees). And the fellow in the center of the photo is quite interesting as he is wearing his pickelhaube (uncovered, no less) and stohwasser gaiters (rather than the puttees of his comrades). I think he may be a medic (looks like he has medic pouches, and the white armband - which is partially obscured - is in the correct position on his left arm and seems to have what could be a cross).
Just reading that government troops / freikorps wore white armbands to distinguish themselves from the Reds.
https://www.alamyimages.fr/photo-image-revolution-allemande-19181919-un-gouvernement-militaire-brassard-blanc-est-represente-en-position-de-combat-a-berlin-en-allemagne-au-cours-de-la-des-combats-de-rue-date-inconnue-photo-berliner-verlagarchiv-57705277.html
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Fascinating photo. Is it Berlin or Munich ? We see two MG08/15 lt. mgs and a flamethrower (note how the wand operator either has his boots untucked or seemingly lacks puttees). And the fellow in the center of the photo is quite interesting as he is wearing his pickelhaube (uncovered, no less) and stohwasser gaiters (rather than the puttees of his comrades). I think he may be a medic (looks like he has medic pouches, and the white armband - which is partially obscured - is in the correct position on his left arm and seems to have what could be a cross).
Ah it's a flamethrower! I thought they a group of heavily armed German plumbers with a roto rooter.
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I believe there's more pictures of this group, or a similar one, including the flamethrower crew in action, but I'm not sure which old thread they can be found in.
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Huevans, it could be the white brassard for Freikorps troops, but notice that none of his comrades are wearing them. Also, looking at the pictures you attached of Freikorps wearing the white brassard, they all seem to be wearing it on the right arm, while this individual is wearing an armband on the left arm (again, the correct position for a medic's armband as uniformly - pardon the pun - worn in WW 1). See the attached pictures below :
https://farm4.static.flickr.com/3943/33606458636_f631b553d8_b.jpg
http://www.ddoughty.com/uploads/1/4/0/9/14095491/1355942.jpg?1411102773
https://i.pinimg.com/736x/37/43/5e/37435e47eaf54ebe06b89ae46cc3f403.jpg
http://i.ebayimg.com/images/i/151658119110-0-1/s-l1000.jpg
https://tse4.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.xojRiJWJl2LoS6gHRGUaUAAAAA&pid=Api&P=0&w=256&h=171
http://redrockweb.co/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/ww1-uniform-uniforms-spring-offensive-military-buttons.jpg
As for the use of flamethrowers against the Spartacists, FramFramson you may be thinking of this group (which had several photos taken of them; there are two in the Schiffer Military History book by Charles Wooley on Freikorps uniforms and equpiment ) :
http://www.forgottenweapons.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/pRzSGRf.jpg
And there is this well-known photo :
https://image.pbs.org/poster_images/assets/310552.JPG.resize.710x399.jpg
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I think you are correct my learned friend. The medic's brassard appears to have a red cross (or some other symbol) on it.
I will provide some opposition to the Freikorps lads though!...
(http://)
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And not only armed workers, but also appears as if there are a few Matrosen (sailors) aboard, as well as at least a couple of old soldiers in at least parts of their uniforms.
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Well I've got the transport covered for when you do. ;)
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A timely thread - I'm starting to see if 2019 is the year I paint my Freikorps.
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@Tin shed gamer: beautiful truck! The painting/weathering is absolutely stunning! Who makes this one?
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@Tin shed gamer: beautiful truck! The painting/weathering is absolutely stunning! Who makes this one?
He did.
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(http://)
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He did.
And sold by 1st Corps:
https://1stcorps.co.uk/product/ww1v14-daimler-truck/
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(http://)
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Great find Huevans. The armored car is probably the same one that appears in so many other pictures, but here from a different angle not generally seen. Also, interesting to see the partially-uniformed and non-uniformed individuals.
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Great find Huevans. The armored car is probably the same one that appears in so many other pictures, but here from a different angle not generally seen. Also, interesting to see the partially-uniformed and non-uniformed individuals.
If you sign up for the FB page I mentioned, they post a few photos every week. I liked this one because it showed Alexanderplatz Station in the background.
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(https://www.empressminiatures.com/ekmps/shops/adf666/images/civ1-1849-p[ekm]660x290[ekm].jpg)
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That reminds me... does anyone know if anyone's selling mp18's in 28mm?
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(https://www.empressminiatures.com/ekmps/shops/adf666/images/civ1-1849-p[ekm]660x290[ekm].jpg)
Nice! Hadn’t noticed those. More opposition for my Czechs.
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That reminds me... does anyone know if anyone's selling mp18's in 28mm?
They were not listed in the catalog, but I got a set from Pulp Figures some years ago.
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That reminds me... does anyone know if anyone's selling mp18's in 28mm?
Scheltrum Miniatures do MP18s but they don't have a website. I do believe they will be at Carronade in May.
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Try Colonel Bills
http://shop.colonelbills-store.co.uk/epages/4f27da57-42ee-48c0-9cb8-22c9dd921a68.mobile/en_GB/?ObjectPath=/Shops/4f27da57-42ee-48c0-9cb8-22c9dd921a68/Products/DBW003
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Those four are just lovely. Looks like the sort of more middle-class citizens who sometimes constituted local defense forces who fought (together with Freikorps) against the Spartacists. Alternatively, they can certainly be more Reds.
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More lovely interwar loveliness from Tsuba ;D ;D ;D
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Thanks for the suggestions lads!
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(https://www.empressminiatures.com/ekmps/shops/adf666/images/civ2-1850-p[ekm]660x276[ekm].jpg)
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In terms of right civvy clothes, would these chaps work for battle of Berlin/Budapest?
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In terms of right civvy clothes, would these chaps work for battle of Berlin/Budapest?
I don't see why not. Although some of the weapons would be obsolete.
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Beautiful these new packs. Plucked straight from the photographs of the battle with the paper rolls barricades. Or the Ruhrarmee. Either Spartakist or freikorps sympathisers.
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https://ospreypublishing.com/store/military-history/upcoming-books/available-this-month/armies-of-the-baltic-independence-wars-1918-20
(https://ospreypublishing.com/media/catalog/product/cache/3/image/958def80b7ce809d46640f86aa46835c/9/7/9781472830791_12.jpg)
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Are these new miniatures out for sale yet? Could not find them anywhere...
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Are these new miniatures out for sale yet? Could not find them anywhere...
https://www.empressminiatures.com/german-revolution-63-c.asp
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Thanks :)
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Cheers!
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So if you guys could get anything else added to this range, what would it be?
I am thinking I would like to see some Freikorp with Lewis, and Madsen Light MG's. Maybe even a chauchat. ;D
Also a trench gun and grenade launcher set would be cool.
And some Calvary for when the range expands out east.
I don't know if I want to be even more greedy and shoot for the Entente occupation troops, 1923 French/Belgian occupation of the Ruhr any one? And Americans for the north western side of the "Bottle Neck Republic". (I also want late war Yanks for a 1920/30s 2nd American Civil war along with using them for world war 1)
Polish forces for the Silesian Uprisings I believe can be handled with the Spartacist, at least until more uniformed troops arrive.
Then you could also use the French as CZ Legion troops in the Polish–Czechoslovak War and fighting against Hungarian Soviet forces.... Damn, now we need Austrian, Romanian and Serb troops for late/Post World War One. lol
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I'd love to see some fellows armed with (improvised?) melee weapons as I need non-firearm equipped fellows for a bolt action list.
Maybe some detectives or high society types? Something that could see use for instance in a pulp/lovecraft game.
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I'd love to see some fellows armed with (improvised?) melee weapons as I need non-firearm equipped fellows for a bolt action list.
Maybe some detectives or high society types? Something that could see use for instance in a pulp/lovecraft game.
That would be cool. Now I am thinking of un armed workers rural and urban. Protesters/marchers with open hands to (for banners, placards, improvised weapons).
I have seen German police so I belive some detectives might be in the works also. So let's toss some middle and high class folks for Berlin Babylon pulp games.
I might have to put an order in for some of the Eureka Jazz band. Of course they might be little early for the 1919-22 period. lol
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Did someone say detectives?
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So if you guys could get anything else added to this range, what would it be?
I am thinking I would like to see some Freikorp with Lewis, and Madsen Light MG's. Maybe even a chauchat. ;D
Also a trench gun and grenade launcher set would be cool.
And some Calvary for when the range expands out east.
I don't know if I want to be even more greedy and shoot for the Entente occupation troops, 1923 French/Belgian occupation of the Ruhr any one? And Americans for the north western side of the "Bottle Neck Republic". (I also want late war Yanks for a 1920/30s 2nd American Civil war along with using them for world war 1)
Polish forces for the Silesian Uprisings I believe can be handled with the Spartacist, at least until more uniformed troops arrive.
Then you could also use the French as CZ Legion troops in the Polish–Czechoslovak War and fighting against Hungarian Soviet forces.... Damn, now we need Austrian, Romanian and Serb troops for late/Post World War One. lol
Armed police, a wider range of rifle armed Freikorps in tin hats and some more rifle armed civilians for me.
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Poachers with military surplus, hunting weapons and an assortment of hunting dogs ;)
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Armed police, a wider range of rifle armed Freikorps in tin hats and some more rifle armed civilians for me.
those all sound good. Maybe a few more Grenader's with grenade pouches and one or two set of rifles wearing the soft banded field cap, who's name escapes me at the moment.
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those all sound good. Maybe a few more Grenader's with grenade pouches and one or two set of rifles wearing the soft banded field cap, who's name escapes me at the moment.
I think you‘re referring to the Krätzchen ;)
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That it, but i have useally heard it called a field Mütze. :D
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Poachers with military surplus, hunting weapons and an assortment of hunting dogs ;)
can never have to many of those guys. lol
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Armed police, a wider range of rifle armed Freikorps in tin hats and some more rifle armed civilians for me.
Those would be excellent.
Mind you, I still haven’t worked out how to build Berlin yet.
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Those would be excellent.
Mind you, I still haven’t worked out how to build Berlin yet.
One brick at a time.
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One brick at a time.
Don’t you have to take Manhattan first? Well, that was Leonard Cohen’s hypothesis at least.
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Those would be excellent.
Mind you, I still haven’t worked out how to build Berlin yet.
Check out these 2 FB groups. There is some amazing work with miniature card buildings and houses that could be adapted to use for displays, railway layouts and wargaming.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/573038996168181/?multi_permalinks=1393411460797593%2C1393408914131181%2C1391952197610186%2C1391883470950392%2C1391047177700688¬if_id=1561134235090049¬if_t=group_activity
https://www.facebook.com/groups/1990112437771026/?multi_permalinks=2244014235714177%2C2242446395870961%2C2243932802388987%2C2243792202403047%2C2236812456434355¬if_id=1561112397921428¬if_t=group_activity&ref=notif
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Don’t you have to take Manhattan first? Well, that was Leonard Cohen’s hypothesis at least.
Now I’m thinking I need to have a bird on a wire somewhere on the model :)
I have been toying with 2D card buildings, along the lines of the excellent ‘Nightmare on Froth Street’ at Salute many years ago but my heart still yearns for 4/5 storey MDF buildings with side streets so narrow I’ll need rubber-tipped tongs to move the figures down. Mind you, I only have one figure painted so far lol
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Now I’m thinking I need to have a bird on a wire somewhere on the model :)
I have been toying with 2D card buildings, along the lines of the excellent ‘Nightmare on Froth Street’ at Salute many years ago but my heart still yearns for 4/5 storey MDF buildings with side streets so narrow I’ll need rubber-tipped tongs to move the figures down. Mind you, I only have one figure painted so far lol
You could just settle for a famous blue raincoat instead. Of course one shouldn’t take Leonard too literally, he was famously wrong about democracy coming to the USA. ;)