Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => Medieval Adventures => Topic started by: Khurasan Miniatures on February 06, 2019, 12:32:06 PM
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Thought I might start a new thread rather than bury these on page 5 of the poll from last fall. :-D
These are the first buildups for a 28mm range for the end of the 12th century. A knight typical of the period — full chain protection, Phrygian helmet, elongated triangle shield, still no surcoat.
(http://khurasanminiatures.tripod.com/11th-century-preview2.jpg)
(http://khurasanminiatures.tripod.com///11th-century-sample1.jpg)
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A fine start (the mount looks particularly awesome), I am assuming you are adding stirrups and leathers to the rider in due course.
I understand that there are necessary compromises in two-piece castings, but the reins do look a long way from his left hand.
The other minor point is that the thumb on the right hand looks to be placed alongside the fingers rather than gripping the spear.
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Very nice! The horse is particularly good.
It's not a period I know much about. I guess this chap represents the halfway point between between the familiar Norman Knight (kite shield, no surcoat) and the later classic Knight image with surcoat, heater shield and heraldry? So the triangular shield and no surcoat is interesting to me.
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This is going to drain my wallet. I'd love to paint some of these and make some cool pictures with them.
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Yep, I'm in love.
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Very very nice ;o)
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Very nice! The horse is particularly good.
It's not a period I know much about. I guess this chap represents the halfway point between between the familiar Norman Knight (kite shield, no surcoat) and the later classic Knight image with surcoat, heater shield and heraldry? So the triangular shield and no surcoat is interesting to me.
Yes, that's exactly right. Occasionally men were wearing surcoats but they were still in the minority, and the kite shield could actually still be seen on occasion, along with this one and and early version of the heater shield.
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Yes, that's exactly right. Occasionally men were wearing surcoats but they were still in the minority, and the kite shield could actually still be seen on occasion, along with this one and and early version of the heater shield.
The Winchester Bible indicates that surcoats were probably becoming more common by 1189. That's not to say that they were worn by everyone, but it's hard to be certain whether their use was still in the minority or not. You'd certainly get away with magnates and bannerets in surcoats, as well as members of the more wealthy military households :)
Winchester Bible: http://manuscriptminiatures.com/search/?manuscript=5759 (http://manuscriptminiatures.com/search/?manuscript=5759)
Regards,
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The Winchester Bible indicates that surcoats were probably becoming more common by 1189.
I'd take the Winchester bible with a grain of salt. Any manuscript may have been penned by several artists over the course of several decades. Although one manuscript might suggest that a thing could be possible as early as its ostensible date of creation, its more prudent to examine as many manuscripts as possible, and draw a through line of the most typical aesthetic of the period in question.
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Hello Konrad Mazowiecki :)
(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/c3/f4/00/c3f4008d589fc3d272e577c231c2e688.png)
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I like it! Well done. :)
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I like that very much! It would be good to see a varied selection of helmets of the period represented including ones with early face plates or barbers as I believe they are known.
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I'd take the Winchester bible with a grain of salt. Any manuscript may have been penned by several artists over the course of several decades. Although one manuscript might suggest that a thing could be possible as early as its ostensible date of creation, its more prudent to examine as many manuscripts as possible, and draw a through line of the most typical aesthetic of the period in question.
All sources should be treated critically and, of course, it is prudent to draw from as many sources as possible.
If we broaden our investigation to include the imagery of Great Seals, for example, it is interesting that John's of 1203 has him in a surcoat, whilst Richard I's two seals do not. They both do feature, however, long robes worn under the mail, which did not appear on Henry II's seals. There are surviving seals that have been interpreted to show Henry with some form of skirt over his mail, but they are badly worn examples and not supported by better preserved versions. Interestingly, Richard's of 1199 depicts either an early full helm or one with a faceplate, whilst John reverts to a more traditional nasal helmet. So there is no clear through-line there.
As you'll be aware, many effigies showing knights in surcoats have been misdated. There, however, is a fabulous font in Lyngsjö Church, Sweden depicting the murder of Thomas Becket, which has knights in surcoats and bare mail. It has been dated to the late 12th Century based on another font by the same sculptor that was inaugurated in 1191. However, there is no evidence to show whether the Lyngsjö was carved before or after that.
When it comes to this issue, which other late twelfth century manuscripts from north-western Europe that depict milites in armour do you have in mind?
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When it comes to this issue, which other late twelfth century manuscripts from north-western Europe that depict milites in armour do you have in mind?
Here are some of the manuscripts that influenced my impression of the period.
The Aberdeen Bestiary
http://manuscriptminiatures.com/search/?manuscript=3946 (http://manuscriptminiatures.com/search/?manuscript=3946)
Arundel 157
http://manuscriptminiatures.com/search/?manuscript=4081 (http://manuscriptminiatures.com/search/?manuscript=4081)
Harley 5102
http://manuscriptminiatures.com/search/?manuscript=4125 (http://manuscriptminiatures.com/search/?manuscript=4125)
Thott 143
http://manuscriptminiatures.com/search/?manuscript=4482 (http://manuscriptminiatures.com/search/?manuscript=4482)
Morgan M.44
http://manuscriptminiatures.com/search/?manuscript=4653 (http://manuscriptminiatures.com/search/?manuscript=4653)
Arundel 48 Historia Anglorum
http://manuscriptminiatures.com/4082/12051/ (http://manuscriptminiatures.com/4082/12051/)
Chronicle of Otto of Friesing
http://manuscriptminiatures.com/5832/22737/ (http://manuscriptminiatures.com/5832/22737/)
I'd like to stress that there certainly are credible outliers within the period of our interest such as the link that I'll post at the end of this paragraph. It is inescapably subjective to decide what volume of depictions you have to reach before an aesthetic stops being merely possible in a period, and starts being typical of a period. I do have a particular bugbear about the Winchester bible however, because it contains many gorgeous scenes depicting the typical armament of the period, and then also a couple of outlier figures that look like they might be the work of another artist's hand.
Harley Roll Y6
http://manuscriptminiatures.com/search/?manuscript=5833 (http://manuscriptminiatures.com/search/?manuscript=5833)
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Liking this very much!
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Many thanks for that expansive response and the additional links to the manuscript miniatures site, Jaunty. Unfortunately, not all relevant martial images from each manuscript have been included by the author of the website, which risks their presenting a partial view.
As you are no doubt aware, the Aberdeen Bestiary also has a knight with a robe worn over their armour (Folio 8r), but it is not clear if it's a cloak or something distinct. Here's a link to the full manuscript, https://www.abdn.ac.uk/bestiary/ms24/f1r (https://www.abdn.ac.uk/bestiary/ms24/f1r)
Arundel 157 is interesting because it generally depicts martial figures in normal civil attire - even St. George (Folio 66v) - but it does have one knight in a surcoat (Folio 80v). However, it is probably an early thirteenth-century manuscript, i.e. produced around the time or after John's Great Seal with him in a surcoat. Full manuscript here: http://www.bl.uk/manuscripts/Viewer.aspx?ref=arundel_ms_157_fs001r (http://www.bl.uk/manuscripts/Viewer.aspx?ref=arundel_ms_157_fs001r)
Morgan M.44 is also probably a little early (c.1175), but it does show the long 'skirts' favoured on Richard I's Great Seals (Folio 7v). Here is a link to all its images: http://ica.themorgan.org/manuscript/thumbs/77488 (http://ica.themorgan.org/manuscript/thumbs/77488)
I agree that the images in Otto fo Friesling are more consistent in portraying troops in uncovered mail, but again, it could be as early as c.1160.
Thot 141 maybe also as early as 1175, but there are some other images of troops with uncovered mail you might be interested in: http://www.kb.dk/permalink/2006/manus/242/eng/8+recto/ (http://www.kb.dk/permalink/2006/manus/242/eng/8+recto/)
Even given that Arundel 157 is a little late, Harley Roll Y6 and the Lyngsjö Font suggest the figures in the Winchester Bible are less likely to be outliers, but indicative of increasing use of surcoats in the late twelfth century. As I posted earlier, probably common enough for magnates and bannerets, and, perhaps, their intimates. When putting together my Third Crusade force several years ago, I had Roger of Harcourt, Peter of Preaux, and Stephen of Thornham in surcoats, but the bulk of Richard I's household knights in bare mail. The mixture seemed suitably reflective of a transitional period.
Here's a link to Harley Y6 for completeness, http://www.bl.uk/manuscripts/Viewer.aspx?ref=harley_roll_y_6_fs001r (http://www.bl.uk/manuscripts/Viewer.aspx?ref=harley_roll_y_6_fs001r)
Kind regards,
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The mixture seemed suitably reflective of a transitional period.
Thank you for attaching links to all those full text scans. Manuscript miniatures is a powerful tool, but it lives or dies based on the willingness of a very small community to contribute and tag content on it.
I'd like to pick your brain about one particular source that I've always found difficult to integrate into my understanding of this aesthetic progression. For a change, this is a written source rather than a visual source. In Bernard of Clairvaux's In Praise of the New Knighthood he writes "Operitis equos sericis, et pendulos nescio quos panniculos loricis superinduitis" He's referring to horses covered in silk and armor covered with plumes of little garments.
I confess I don't know how to digest this. Bernard died in 1153, and he probably wrote this before the 2nd Crusade, not in the final decades of his life. If he's describing surcoats and caparisons, then he's describing an aesthetic that is vanishingly rare in visual sources that could possibly be from his lifetime. Should I read into this that there were fashionistas jumping the gun by a couple of decades?
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Hi Jaunty,
"...plume your amour with I don't know what sort of rags;" or "plumes of little garments" is a strange turn of phrase, especially given lorica was usually reserved for body armour - like a hauberk. If he had referred to their helmet (galea or cassis), it would be less problematic. As it stands, it sounds like some form of multi-coloured gillie-suit lol
As you know, in this section, St. Bernard was criticizing the ostentatious behaviour of secular knights in comparison to the brother-knights of the Templars. So there is the risk of Cistercian exaggeration, but I do think there is likely to be a kernel of truth in there - all be it some regional fashion or a particularly memorable gala/carnival.
He doesn't seem to be describing cloaks, such as probably depicted in Folio 8r of the Aberdeen Bestiary and a very logical choice for campaign-wear. When Bernard goes on to describe their tripping over their long and full tunics, however, it more likely refers to court attire than surcoats, I think.
The joys of medieval research - more holes than a fishing net :)
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First look at one of the initial three sets. These are late 12th century knights with open face helmets, lance at 45 degrees.
The first three sets should be released shortly. Many more will be made.
(http://khurasanminiatures.tripod.com/12thcknights.jpg)
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First look at one of the initial three sets. These are late 12th century knights with open face helmets, lance at 45 degrees.
The first three sets should be released shortly. Many more will be made.
(http://khurasanminiatures.tripod.com/12thcknights.jpg)
They're really lovely though with 28mm variation in the posture of a miniature is essential.
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I really like them! :-* I am going to collect them all. :)
The only critic I have is that the hands are open. I prefer closed ones, but this is ofcourse a very minor complaint.
Do you have an European or UK (until Brexit) distributor?
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Atheling, there’s another set holding their lances up, and a command set as well. Those first three sets will all be released together.
Thanks Tonhel. I ship direct worldwide.
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Atheling, there’s another set holding their lances up, and a command set as well. Those first three sets will all be released together.
Thanks, you had me worried for a while :)
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Atheling, there’s another set holding their lances up, and a command set as well. Those first three sets will all be released together.
Thanks Tonhel. I ship direct worldwide.
Ok, I will order the 3 sets. First time ordering from the USA, so we will see how that goes. ;)
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Ha ha Atheling! Yes and after that there will be the same three sets, lance 45, lance up, and command, for a) military orders wearing the monk’s mantle, with some face masks mixed in, and b) secular knights, some wearing face mask, some wearing surcoat, and some wearing both.
Then we’ll have horses with caparisons, and horses wearing mail or quilted armour.
However, the “meat and potatoes” knights of the earlier Hohenstaufen wars in Italy (Friederich I and Heinrich VI, I mean) as well as the Third Crusade were just like these first sets — full mail, no surcoat, no mask, unarmoured horse.
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Ha ha Atheling! Yes and after that there will be the same three sets, lance 45, lance up, and command, for a) military orders wearing the monk’s mantle, with some face masks mixed in, and b) secular knights, some wearing face mask, some wearing surcoat, and some wearing both.
Then we’ll have horses with caparisons, and horses wearing mail or quilted armour.
However, the “meat and potatoes” knights of the earlier Hohenstaufen wars in Italy (Friederich I and Heinrich VI, I mean) as well as the Third Crusade were just like these first sets — full mail, no surcoat, no mask, unarmoured horse.
Sounds great! :-*
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Knights with lance up. I was actually going to release the first three sets this week but the box with the horses, command and lance sprues went missing in the post (it had some 15mm sci fi astronaut type guys in it too) so while I sort that out these will have to wait!
(http://khurasanminiatures.tripod.com/12thc-2.jpg)
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Looks good! Although the spears will be replaced.
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They’re optional actually. Models can be bought without them. For what it’s worth the lance head was sculpted based on appearance as shown in period sources.
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So the spears come with the sets after all, but they are not factored into the price, so if you don't need them, just cheerfully toss them!
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At long last, we are very pleased to release the first codes for this range. Available now:
http://khurasanminiatures.tripod.com/28mm-late-12th-century.html
This is the period of the Third Crusade, the wars of Friederich Barbarossa in Italy, and of course ceaseless warfare elsewhere as well. The first codes are the basic building block of the armies of this period: milites (knights) in full chainmail without surcoats, with open faced helmets, bearing a lance and a shield often larger than the heater that became nearly universal in the 13th century. There were knights wearing surcoats, or the mantle of the miliary order, and/or face masks, but in this period they were still the exception rather than the rule. We will make these as follow up sets, as well as armoured or caparisoned horses, and infantry.
(http://khurasanminiatures.tripod.com/28mm-l12thc-plain-lance45-uh.jpg)
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Just bought the command set, as a tester. The sets look good, but I want to see the command set in the "flesh", before ordering the other two sets. Also I never ordered form the USA, so I am curious if I will have to pay extra taxes.
Looking forward to it. :)
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Thanks!
What do you think makes more sense — to do the knights in habits or surcoats, some with face masks, or to do the first sets of foot, spearmen and crossbows?
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Thanks!
What do you think makes more sense — to do the knights in habits or surcoats, some with face masks, or to do the first sets of foot, spearmen and crossbows?
Fab stuff and very very tempting. This is indeed the first dedicated range in the late 11th C specific to the Third Crusade.
I've just read through the details on your website and came across this which got my attention immediately!!:
"Once the European range is fleshed out, and if it is well-received, Ayyubids will be made"
:o :o :o
It would be fantastic to see a dedicated Ayyubid range, especially the Faris as nobody at all makes them. There are some ranges that come quite close but nothing specific.
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They look great!
I agree they'd look even better with wire spears, but it's good to have options I guess! I think everything looks better with wire spears though, I can't stand seeing bendy lances.
I'm very interested in seeing this range expand, so hopefully it sells well. I won't be starting a new project any time soon, but maybe someday in the future? They look rather easy to paint as well... mostly just mail and simple shield designs... which is a bonus for getting a force together quickly.
The shield designs - at this point in history, would these be examples of early heraldry, or not?
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The shield designs - at this point in history, would these be examples of early heraldry, or not?
The very nascency of heraldry Charlie.
Prior to any uniform formalisation.
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Thanks!
What do you think makes more sense — to do the knights in habits or surcoats, some with face masks, or to do the first sets of foot, spearmen and crossbows?
Imo, I would love to see more mounted knights. Atleast another set as the ones released and then sets with knights in habits (hospitaller) and surcoats. I would go for more sets of mounted knights and maybe a couple of mounted character packs that features some of the more prominent figures of the third crusade.
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Ok thanks. That was the plan but then I thought people might prefer spears and crossbows on foot.
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I received my command group today. 7 days to get from the USA to Belgium. :)
About the mini's. I like them, well sculpted and clean casting. The only criticism I have is that the mini's are smaller than the Footsore / claymore castings I have. So i.e Richard I from Footsore will not work with these mini's. Which is a shame.
But for the rest I am very happy the mini's. In october I will buy the two other sets and I am looking forward for more. A very great start! :-*
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I’m glad you like the figurines. We’ll be making many more, including of course Richard I as well as Friederich Barbarossa. :)
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I’m glad you like the figurines. We’ll be making many more, including of course Richard I as well as Friederich Barbarossa. :)
And Salah ad-Din Yusuf ibn Ayyub too? ??? ??? ???
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I think we’ll have to see on that! 😅
Meanwhile the full batch is receiving modifications now —
1) All knights are receiving mantles for military orders
2) All knights are receiving surcoats
Both of the above conversions are receiving some face masks (they were the exception in the late 12th century however so not all figurines will get them)
Here’s an in progress shot:
(http://khurasanminiatures.tripod.com/mantle-surcoat.jpg)
3) Horses will receive caparisons
Then we will make a set of crossbowmen and a set of spearmen in chainmail and/or aketons.
Question: how popular are couched lance poses in 28mm? People tend to dislike them in 15mm because it makes base to base contact difficult.
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I'm all for couched lances. Upright too. A good mix of both is preferable. The more dynamic the pose in 28mm the more attractive the miniatures :)
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Looking good. I particularly love the way the reins meet the left hands.
I also like a mix of couched, upright, and 45 degrees - just to be awkward lol
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Looking good! :-*
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I particularly love the way the reins meet the left hands.
The sculptor curled them up to get the figurine on the horse. They are long so that you can bend them right up to the left hand, then trim.
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Here's a first look at one of the new codes in Wave 2 of this range.
Wave 2 will be released in May, and will be:
Knights in surcoats, lance upright
Knights in surcoats, lance at 45 degrees
Knights in surcoats, command
Military orders in mantle, lance upright
Military orders in mantle, lance at 45 degrees
Military orders in mantle, command
Also all the sets (including the existing codes of surcoatless knights) will now have the option to be mounted on caparisoned horses.
Wave 3 will be armoured nfantry with spears, armoured infantry with crossbows, unarmoured infantry archers, Richard the Lionhearted, and Friederich Barbarossa.
Here are the Miliary order knights in mantle, with lance upright, on the caparisoned horses:
(https://khurasanminiatures.tripod.com/wave2-1.jpg)
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Amazing! :-*
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Amazing! :-*
They are! :-* :-* :-*
Unfortunately the postal rates from the USA have made this project a no go for me :(
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Very nice,and lovely painting on them :-*
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We are very pleased to release the second wave of our 28mm late 12th century European range. Available now:
https://khurasanminiatures.tripod.com/28mm-late-12th-century.html
This release adds twelve new codes — secular knights in surcoats (still a minority of knights in this period), and military orders brethren in mantles (which they wore until a Papal bull of 1249AD permitted them to don the surcoat instead). It adds caparisoned horses as an option for all of the knights. Infantry spearmen and crossbowmen will be released next!
(https://khurasanminiatures.tripod.com/28mm-l12thc-surcoat-lance45-uh.jpg)
(https://khurasanminiatures.tripod.com/28mm-l12thc-milorder-lanceup-cap.jpg)
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They look pretty good :-*
The one thing that puts me off is the lack of dynamic animation in the horses. Generally, if possible, I like to have my units look like they are in a fight or about to enter one at any second.
BTW, If memory serves, I think it was only the Hospitallers who wore the Cappa Clausa until the Papal Bull of 1249 with the Templars being released from the restrictive confines of the garment at a much earlier date.
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Only eight years earlier. We don’t know the exact date of Gregory IX’s letter to the Templars allowing them to ditch the mantle for what he calls a “supertunic” (presumably meaning the surcoat) but it’s generally considered to have been around 1240.
By the way, the papal bull to the hospitallers was 1248, not 1249. My mistake.
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Only eight years earlier. We don’t know the exact date of Gregory IX’s letter to the Templars allowing them to ditch the mantle for what he calls a “supertunic” (presumably meaning the surcoat) but it’s generally considered to have been around 1240.
By the way, the papal bull to the hospitallers was 1248, not 1249. My mistake.
Interesting, it's not what I've read (Runciman, so very possibly out of date on on my part) so I possibly need to educate myself a little. Thanks for the correction..... [moves towards bookshelf] :)
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It’s on page 29 of Helen Nicholson’s book on the Templars.
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It’s on page 29 of Helen Nicholson’s book on the Templars.
That's very useful. Thanks :)
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They do look good! How do they compare with GB and Perry in size and style? Are they available somewhere in Europe?
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They do look good! How do they compare with GB and Perry in size and style? Are they available somewhere in Europe?
They are smaller in comparison with Footsore. I can take a comparison picture between a mini from Caballero and footsore... Sadly you can only order them directly from the USA. Last time I ordered I had the luck to not pay any customs / extra taxes.