Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => Weird Wars => Topic started by: Rich H on February 07, 2019, 12:44:46 PM
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So.... pondering another ill advised build - E-100 ;D
(https://ae01.alicdn.com/kf/HTB1q7Z6ov6H8KJjSspmq6z2WXXa4/German-1-72-E100-super-heavy-tank-model-72093-Collection-model.jpg_640x640.jpg)
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6c/E-100a.jpg)
Questions:
Turrets - there appear to be 3-4 different possible turrets accepted as options.
The Maus turret actually existed but I'm tempted by the E-100 specific turret.
Could build both but which first?
(http://i.imgur.com/3BzHTBn.png)
Side Skirts
One piece or in sections?
Other options
'Krokodil seems to be popular but it's extremely impractical duce to the weight all over the front
Would a more practical but less appealing version be better?
(https://pp.userapi.com/c834300/v834300630/2b114/ZDTfjKCqVPo.jpg)
Plan is a mix of traditional plasticard and filler and 3d printed bits (Resin printer so veyr tiny lines!)
Then off to Die Waffenkammer for cast.
It's going to be a slow burn as the ankle biter is a bit of a time sink that can't be ignored! :o
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Side Skirts
One piece or in sections?
Sections ... makes it easier to get a somewhat more ramshackle look ...
Other options
'Krokodil seems to be popular but it's extremely impractical duce to the weight all over the front
Would a more practical but less appealing version be better?
What kind of question is that????
Of course the "Jagdpanther on steroids" version - it cannot be anything else! :D
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Damn, we're enablers... ::)
Turret:
Its been months since I read up on any of this stuff, so I may be incorrect. The E-100 had to have a specific turret designed for it as the Maus turret was too heavy. Its proprietary turret had thinner armour, and the lighter weight is presumably why it has a different front profile. If we're talking a real vehicle here and not something from a video game then I'd go with the flat faced turret - just so that nobody's saying that its "wrong" if you go with a Maus one (if people are desperate for a Muas turret then they can email Warlord. :P)
I'd prefer a muzzle brake too, just to further set it apart from the existing Maus on the market (the real E-100 is pictured as having a pepper pot style brake).
There's also this (fictional) Panzer IV/ Tiger II style turret out there. Though for the base model I'd try and replicate the real vehicle as closely as possible, rather than going for made up variants.
(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/d3/bc/58/d3bc58faa0097616815be36aefe2d487.jpg)
Side Skirts:
I've already said my piece about these. The side skirts on other German tanks tended to be "hung" on their mounts, so they could be knocked off by impacts. The ones on the E-100 appear to have much larger bolts. Unless someone's willing to show a deal of battle damage, its unlikely one of those things would just be knocked off. However, that's me coming from a "realistic" (my own viewpoint may be missing crucial information) standpoint, as opposed to rule of cool. Problematically, if you do them as single pieces then I'd imagine that they would not be entirely hollow. So if someone did want to remove sections, they'd have to cut out a load of resin, which I doubt most modellers would be willing to do.
Variants:
If you're going to make a dumb tank then you may as well make some stupid variants. The E-100 would have never worked. Though that's not to say that it was built by complete idiots. If you were to make the "Krokodil" then the vehicle would have to have had front torsion bars made out of Admantium. It could be explained away by changing the road wheel configuration, however I suspect that people would want to buy that exact Krokodil model which Queeg made, except in 1/56th, regardless of how silly it would be in real life.
The variant with the rear casement fits late war designs on similar vehicles like the Jagdpanther II or Uralmash-1, and would be suitable for the torsion bar suspension. But its less iconic.
World of Tanks brings us these fictional (as in they say its real, but well, they're liars :P) artillery carriers and if you want to do something strange. Ah, though again its my opinion that if you're going to do something at least try and have a basis in reality. I'd imagine there'd be more customers in this niche market looking for "real" paper panzers first, then silliness afterwards.
(https://wxpcdn.gcdn.co/dcont/tankopedia/germany/G61_G_E.png)
(http://rykoszet.info/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/germany-g98_waffentrager_e100_p_1.jpg)
Ignoring the StuGs, a Flakpanzer may be an option. Most of the ones which I've seen (uh, other than that one with 100 StG-44s as its main armament...) go for a Coelian style turret. Which from what I can tell uses the flat faced E-100 as a base if that makes things easier to build. As would it only require a new turret, rather than potentially changing the engine layout depending on where you place the tank destroyer's casement.
(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/38/9a/32/389a324b8327fa5b4b35b62c3f703e13.jpg)
Oh, and another note. With these E-series vehicles there could be the question of whether to go with a traditional engine or a gas turbine. Hmn, but that latter may be too niche. As would gas turbines be open to interpretation, whereas the real vehicle had an existing design (and so not recreating this could be divisive).
So as a preference I'd like to see something which could have actually been built. If that means going for a "practical" design, then I'd be happy with that. At least people could complain about it being too heavy or other accurate design faults the vehicles would have had, as opposed to griping about how the Krokodil would've driven over a small bump, ploughed itself into the ground with that front heavy gun and then broken its suspension. Though I'm slightly biased, in that I have a spare 3D printed E-100 there which I can turn into whichever variant you don't happen to do. :)
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"If you build it they will come..." (best wear something wipe down) I'd certainly be in the queue for one.
As to the turret, it's quite confusing, it seems that the turret destined for the Maus was never really in the running (too big at 55 tons on its own), that the E-100 essentially was in competion with the Maus for the Bohemian corporal's attention & that he was definately of the bigger is better persuasion, meant it was doomed to lose out to its bigger rival. The Adlerwerke project probably would have recieved the proposed Maus II turret (the ugly slab-sided one like an upturned trough). That said, the two kits familiar to scale modellers are the old Dragon & Trumpeter ones (Maus type turret & the fictional Mike Rinaldi designed one respectively, the Maus II design being on the new Amusing Hobby version) so you can argue the case for any of the three designs - though I'd like to put a vote in for the Rinaldi one - fictional I know, but it just looks the part & dispenses with the co-ax 7.5cm present on both the others.
The skirts were designed as serious pieces of the overall armour package (between 30 & 70mm thick) & not the 5mm plate found in schurzen, hence the massive attachment bolts, to make them removeable for train transport - I'll be happy as long as each side is seperate & they're easy to section if you want to leave pieces off.
One other thing is whether to include the extended tracks or not - the existing scale models all do, probably because the tracks found with the completed hull did. Again, they do look rather cool, but would they be a problem for you to produce?
Yes, a 38D would also be nice (as all these monsters are huge point sinks game-wise & a small, cheap & reasonably effective paper panzer would be welcome).
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Wow!
I will watch with interest.
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The skirt front corners were driving me to distraction last night... grr. Sorted now though
Skirts, rear bulkhead, basic hull, basic turret and detailed gun are all done.
Next will be the rest of the hull (rear deck will take a while!)
Then the suspension and undercarraige.
Suspension should be rleatively straight forward as it's basically the same suspension and wheel units repeated over and over. Track links similar. Challenge wil be to get the sag right.
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Very excited to hear of your progress, I imagine that the front & rear curved & angled skirt armour sections should be the worst of it, as most of the rest is fairly slabby - I'm very much looking forward to seeing the finished result :)
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Yes... but given I'm working at a larger scale I want to add in weld lines too which complicates things a bit. Does make it more interesting though.
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Just to check, is anyone aware of a kit in 1/56th scale which includes weld lines? ::)
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My stuff does ;)
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Putting in weld seams is a nice touch, one of those details that you might not notice normally in comparitively small scale models, but once you do, their absence on lesser models is a bit disappointing (a bit like accurate panel lines).
Just out of curiosity, are you going down the putty route for them, or plastic rod, softened with glue & shaped?
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OK, I may have typed that then immediately considered that some of the Die Waffenkammer vehicles in my collection have them.
Still, for all those Soviet tanks out there, nasty welds seem oddly uncommon. :)
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Putting in weld seams is a nice touch, one of those details that you might not notice normally in comparitively small scale models, but once you do, their absence on lesser models is a bit disappointing (a bit like accurate panel lines).
Just out of curiosity, are you going down the putty route for them, or plastic rod, softened with glue & shaped?
They appear to me to be recessed between the plates so I'm going to put them as recessed. They are only small (0.2mm wide) but shoud still show up.
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Just to check, is anyone aware of a kit in 1/56th scale which includes weld lines? ::)
Rubicon M4 glacis.
(https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-gm0AKHFxNvc/XGHHHzmMGYI/AAAAAAAAEyw/sjWiVejhDvMqnEVnvnIxRe54ovoxmqWPQCLcBGAs/s1600/rb-m4-14.png)
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Got a bit of time to draw.
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Ooh, looking good so far :)
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Bit more progress:
(https://scontent.flhr4-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/51771415_10157006333641774_8768298652453044224_n.jpg?_nc_cat=103&_nc_ht=scontent.flhr4-2.fna&oh=29cb5f4017297e12263a9930c3c02bc3&oe=5CFE7449)
(https://scontent.flhr4-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/51811930_10157006332901774_3387680120717180928_n.jpg?_nc_cat=105&_nc_ht=scontent.flhr4-1.fna&oh=645c8e7b3c3ac0da847da974df0d3ff3&oe=5CE9B213)
(https://scontent.flhr4-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/51966277_10157006331026774_4258677107271401472_n.jpg?_nc_cat=109&_nc_ht=scontent.flhr4-2.fna&oh=7ff0ae7936e96f2764103dbc5de12bb6&oe=5CF40492)
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That is sorcery!
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How much clearance from the air intakes would that turret have when facing the rear? Or is the distance from the centre of the turret equal to both the front and rear edges?
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Sorcery almost certainly...
Good question on clearance- It doesnt look like it in the pics but there is a significant bustle on the turret. Not checked the rotation clearances TBH but I can do that in the software... apparently...
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Looking great :-*
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Clearance did need work as it happens thanks for the tip!
In the mean time - undercarriage:
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More
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How would you expect the wheels to be assembled? I haven't seen what Jeff's done with the heavier tanks, but at least with the Tiger II they were complete units instead of separate pieces. Ah ...because, well, those interleaved road wheels are always such a joy to put together. ;)
Looking at those renders its curious just how simple the exterior construction of that vehicle was. Just loads of flat plates. I suppose the interior was more complex, but I'd imagine that once you worked out the detailed areas and weird angles the rest fell into place.
With a turret that size how large is the plug going to be? Most of the weight looks like it'll be in the turret at least, so there's not much risk of it toppling over.
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The track units are designed with hidden geometry to join all the links together.
They have a chunk of hull attached and a strip that join the upper track to the hull.
The hull and turret are just big flat slabs.
Track unit
(https://scontent.flhr4-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/52598279_10157011534451774_3826867091105906688_n.jpg?_nc_cat=103&_nc_ht=scontent.flhr4-2.fna&oh=e0e1d9c9fe78eeba4630fd69b5fe0633&oe=5CFB7CB4)
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Just the skirts to go. A couple of minor repairs needed but not much. Just the front and rear towing points
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That is astonishing.
As I said, sorcery!
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Fantastic! The tracks & running gear came out beautifully :-*
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Ish... they can (and will) be improved
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That is impressive, dwarfing the other two.
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Very nice work!
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Beautiful, I cannot wait to get my hands on one of these :-*
On a side note, have you felt the need to monkey with the turret in the name of real-world viability? The problem with the very limited information regarding its appearence, understandable perhaps in a project still largely at the the on paper phase, is that it doesn't take into account real world design necessities. In the images availabe of the Maus II turret (Panzer Tracts 20-1 etc) the TC literally has no way of seeing out of the vehicle short of putting his head through the hatch. The gunner is reasonably well provided for - the large bar on top covering the co-incidence rangefinder plus a periscopic sight for the finer gun laying - but the TC - nothing, no periscopes, vision blocks or cupola & so is effectively blind - not a practical situation. We have to assume that should this have gone into production some solution would have to be found - I'd have said a commander's cupola - but the turret's so massive it'd still leave a visual dead spot for a few meters in front of the vehicle.
Still, aside from my geeky nonsense I'm beyond glad that you've taken up this project for JTFM & hope it's available soon.
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I suspect that the turret drawn is actually based on the Maus #1 turret trial weight. It's not no finesse at all, it's massive and slab sided. As you say it's utterly impractical for the commander.
I wasn't going to do anything in particular but it wouldn't be hard to make a cupola similar to the E-50 for the commander.
3rd set of tracks printing now... 9 hours each... :? but they weren't right!
Hull will be scraped to get rid of lines I'm then going to look at a 'tool kit' of extras like starting handles, tools, etc. That can be added after.
Might have been working on something else too..
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Were all German turrets gunner and commander on the left, loader on the right?
One possibility if that were not the case would be to have a duplicate periscope arrangement on the right plus the Commander's cupola behind the coincidence range finder bar.
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UVS - you're right, that was the usual set up - single periscope set ups, as opposed to the ring of them you'd get in a cupola, come with significant downsides - how fast you spot & respond to threats after all being dictated by what you can see - hence why most German vehicles (& everybody else's, bar early war Russian stuff - the absence on T-34/76 models was a serious drawback - Boris Kavarlerchiks ' The Tanks Of Operation Barbarossa' gives an excellent & even-handed account of what happens when the TC can't see out of the vehicle) get a cupola with 5-8 of them.
It would seem that in "March of 1944, Krupp started work on a new turret, known as Maus II. The curved front was removed, to make the turret easier to produce, and the guns (128 mm KwK44 L/55 and 75 mm KwK40 L/36) were placed on top of each other. Another important addition was a rangefinder. The E-100 was supposed to receive the same turret, but with a reduced mass to 35 tons. This was achieved by reducing the thickness of the side armour to 80 mm." This would seem to be the one portrayed in PT20-1 as the Maus II design - the slab-sided one.
I thought the cupola used on the Panther F might work (it's lower profile than that on the G - Panzer Tracts 5-4 & both Jentz & Doyles & W.J. Spielberger Panther books) - I ended up scratch building one for the Blitzkrieg Maus, along with putting a co-incidence rangefinder on it.
WOO-HOO, a 'standard' E-50 too, very nice.
EDIT: The E-100 with Maus II turret, is of course in PT vol. 6-3 Schwere Panzerkampfwagen Maus and E-100, not 20-1 as I mistakenly remembered)
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The E75 is only a different suspension layout and turret too...
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Was hoping you'd say that... 8)
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So after 3 attempts I've got a set of tracks I'm happy with. If you note the first pic of the tracks shows the edge of the roadwheel is a bit melty - it's where the edge printed without proper support. Also the idler got a bit messed up.
That's 9 hours per set... however, I'm now happy, couple of minor repairs and it'll be perfect.
Hull I'm in two minds about, I might reprint it, the front edge is a bit wonky and there are a coupe of repairs needed so I coudl reprint and fix them or I could jstu filler/plasticard them. The purist in me wants to reprint so it's a complete printed project but the Yorkshireman in me (My dad's from Leeds) says just fix it. That said a reprint would allow me to make more of the weld lines which, while visible, aren't very well defined.
The E-50/E-75 hull is done. Road wheels done. E-50 turret done.
Going to see about nicking the drive sproket, idler and tracks off the E-100. The tracks will need a trim, but the drawing seems to show them the saem as the E-100 but missing grousers form the inside to make them narrower.
If I can do that then the E-50 will be finished tomorrow adn the E-75 by the end of the week.
Ordered more resin too (£43 per litre!)
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£43 per litre, ouch. Not too bad if you're printing 28 mm figures, but how many vehicles of that size do you get out of that? (I ask as I'm considering taking the plunge & getting a printer - I'm more inclined to go for a resin printer as I'm not really convinced by SLA ones for figures & vehicles do seem to come out better in resin).
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According to the software an E-100 is about £5 - £6 but I've had quite a bit of wastage while learning.
Hollowing the models saves quite a bit.
Id go resin. FDM is just not good enough without a lot more technical tinkering.
Remember resin need rinse with solvent (I'm using meths) and post cure (windowsill for an hour or so)
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Cheers, that sounds like the way to go then.
(A Vickers Independant eh! The worlds first self-peeling tank lol)
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Hi all.
Just in case, i have for sale a 1/48 Maus for sale as well as some beautifull resin german prototype planes on this topic:
http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=118682.0
Thanks for your interst.