Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => Fantasy Adventures => Topic started by: nicknorthstar on February 11, 2019, 01:06:02 PM
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This line from the Silmarillion has intrigued me for decades:
Last of all the eastern force to stand firm were the Dwarves of Belegost..... it was their custom moreover to wear great masks in battle hideous to look upon; and those stood them in good stead against the dragons.
We're actually going to incorporate masks into the helmet design of the 2nd Oathmark Dwarf box set, but this idea struck me today and I had a play around with the new plastic Tribal figures from Frostgrave and the current Oathmark Dwarves.
(This isn't what we've gone for with the 2nd Dwarf box set i hasten to add).
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Looks very interesting Nick...
What are the plans for the second Dwarf box???
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Heavy armoured with 2 handed weapons.
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Brilliant
Thanks Nick.
Rough idea, time wise?
(Don't worry I won't hold you to it)
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Haha, love 'em!
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April.
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Great fun! Wonder what they would look like painted? Tomorrow’s lunch time challenge for Tebs perhaps?
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Interesting. The human masks are perhaps a little small for dwarfs?
This reminded me how good your dwarfs are. Gotta get some. :)
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oh, that's really well done. Great idea.
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This line from the Silmarillion has intrigued me for decades:
Last of all the eastern force to stand firm were the Dwarves of Belegost..... it was their custom moreover to wear great masks in battle hideous to look upon; and those stood them in good stead against the dragons.
We're actually going to incorporate masks into the helmet design of the 2nd Oathmark Dwarf box set, but this idea struck me today and I had a play around with the new plastic Tribal figures from Frostgrave and the current Oathmark Dwarves.
ohh.. so we're going to get some heavily armored Dwarves eventually? after all, while the masks were called out in the Silmarillion as being why the dwarves of Belegost could withstand dragonfire, they would have had to have full body armor as well otherwise the masks wouldn't have done much. (given that magic in tolkein's settings tends to be subtle and often a sign of skilled craftsmanship as much as mystical aspects)
as someone who has eyed the oathmark dwarves as a possible source for a Kings of War Free Kingdoms Dwarf Army, having access to some full plate dwarves would be nice. (i rather liked the Army of the Iron Hills in The Hobbit: Battle of Five Armies.. though their warmachines were absurd. but i loved the heavily armored pike and shield thing. felt very natural for dwarves. would love to have a way to get something similar without using Mantic Imperial dwarf style or paying GW prices)
WETA even considered Belegost style war masks for Bo5A's. kinda wish they'd gone with that..
(https://media.indiedb.com/cache/images/members/1/762/761504/thumb_620x2000/Belegost_Dwarf_Warrior.png)(https://media.indiedb.com/cache/images/members/1/762/761504/thumb_620x2000/Beneath_The_Thunder_-_Gathering_The_Battle_Of_The_Five_Armies_-_Designing_The_Dwarves_And_Th.4.jpg)
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The masks are a little small. But it's just me playing around, there's no grand design plan here.
I'll see what they look like painted.
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Awesome! I have been brooding over that Silmarillion line for ages and missed anything that could be used to represent masked dwarfs on the tabletop. The photo looks pretty good!
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It's the 'hideous to look at' bit that has always caught my attention. A helmet mask, like say the Sutton Hoo one, or the ones in the artwork about, I wouldn't class as hideous.
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I always assumed that the dwarf 'masks' were visors on their helmets.
I would want the option of assembling the dwarfs with visors up or down
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Visors indeed would be the presumption. So why 'hideous'?
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Perhaps the masks were made with the intent to intimidate, the way Samurai masks were? Using exaggerated features?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Men-yoroi
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I agree
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I like’um!
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alternately, perhaps since Tolkien usually equated "industrial" with "ugly" (look a the corruption of the shire or the industry at Orthanc), perhaps the Belegost Dwarves just had a practical aesthetic and the resulting non-natural look was considered 'ugly' by the much more nature focused elves (who are the ones that wrote the silmarillion).
so the dragon proof dwarf masks might just resemble welding masks.
(https://www.urbanremainschicago.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/767x1023/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/2/0/20120417-004m.jpg)
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JRRT does say somewhere they were war versions of the masks the Dwarves wore in their forges. So that welding mask is pretty close to it I think.
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Last of all the eastern force to stand firm were the Dwarves of Belegost..... it was their custom moreover to wear great masks in battle hideous to look upon; and those stood them in good stead against the dragons.
Hmm. Maybe Ian Miller's classic illustration (https://i.gr-assets.com/images/S/compressed.photo.goodreads.com/hostedimages/1483815666i/21652302._SX540_.jpg) is too lame (see upper left corner). How about this (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Close_helmet#/media/File:Close_helmet_with_wolf-face_visor,_20th_century_reproduction_-_Higgins_Armory_Museum_-_DSC05436.JPG) and this (http://royaloakarmoury.com/2014/07/11/monster-helmet-redux-part-1/)? But are they 'great' and 'hideous' enough? What about these (http://crushevil.co.uk/blog/?p=35), these (https://www.blog.tirol/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/TirolWerbung_29823-1275x850.jpg) or this (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorset_Ooser#/media/File:The_Ooser_2.jpg), or this (https://static1.squarespace.com/static/577e3ab9725e25fb8efd7b08/t/5806c17dbebafbcfa8363723/1476837776264/154N08749_5N93K.jpg?format=750w)? Are they terror enough, if they would be made of non-flammable materials? A mere welding mask is way too lame to work against orcs!
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perhaps hybridize welding masks with Jousting helmets (which is what we tend to think of when thinking of plate armor, due to popular media misunderstandings)?
(https://www.medievalcollectibles.com/images/Product/medium/AH-6792.png)
(https://rautaportti.fi/images/large/Images%20Helmets/MH-H0996%20Bascinet%20with%20Visor%201350-1450_01_LRG.jpg)(https://rautaportti.fi/images/large/Images%20Armour/MH-A0941%2015th%20Century%20Jousting%20Gauntlets_02_LRG.jpg)
toss in some cosmetic stuff for dwarf style and you'd be set.
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I agree with Nick, the Sutton Hoo helmet would be a good place to start fora dwarf helmet - only the face would need to be made more hideous. In what way this would be done I am not sure. Samurai helmets often have demonic looking masks.
I don't see this being a visor that can be raised - the First Age in particular should have a dark ages/late antiquity feel.
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actually in Tolkein's works the First Age was presented as a golden age, of which the 2nd was a pale shadow.. and the 3rd Age was a pale shadow of the 2nd age. the 3rd Age was clearly presented as an early middle ages ("dark ages") aesthetic in general, though the Shire is clearly a slice of 17th century rural england stuck into an otherwise medieval age.
the 1st and 2nd age involving more elaborate styles of the sort we saw in later periods IRL seems fitting to me, given that in the 1st age we also had things like the 'forged monsters of iron and fire' used to breach the wall of Gondolin (the description of which sounds very much like Tanks), or the flying ship Vingilótë captained by Eärendil. the First age was an Age of wonders unlike any that followed, so it seems weird to limit it to one tiny slice of real history, particularly one that was already well represented in the 3rd Age.
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Interesting idea! I'd suggest looking at the various 'wilder man' costumes still in use around Europe, there might be some good inspiration there.
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actually in Tolkein's works the First Age was presented as a golden age, of which the 2nd was a pale shadow.. and the 3rd Age was a pale shadow of the 2nd age. the 3rd Age was clearly presented as an early middle ages ("dark ages") aesthetic in general, though the Shire is clearly a slice of 17th century rural england stuck into an otherwise medieval age.
the 1st and 2nd age involving more elaborate styles of the sort we saw in later periods IRL seems fitting to me, given that in the 1st age we also had things like the 'forged monsters of iron and fire' used to breach the wall of Gondolin (the description of which sounds very much like Tanks), or the flying ship Vingilótë captained by Eärendil. the First age was an Age of wonders unlike any that followed, so it seems weird to limit it to one tiny slice of real history, particularly one that was already well represented in the 3rd Age.
The First Age was a golden age because it was dominated by the elves and they were, at that time, greater in body and spirit. The Second and Third Ages were progressively more dominated by men and elves were beginning to "fade". It is also said that men were greatest in body in that age, other than the heyday of the Numenoreans (in other words, common men were greater than in later times but were, of course, eclipsed by the Numenoreans).
The glory of the elves was in their "artistry". Yes, they had technology, but there was something of art and what men might term magic in what they made. In terms of true technology I don't believe they were advanced.
The iron machines involved in the destruction of Gondolin are constructs of Morgoth and we should not conflate this with elven technology. The mention of these machines is from earlier writing and is not part of the published Silmarillion. It depends what you feel is canon for the First Age. I personally prefer the Silmarillion but there is nothing to stop you preferring the earlier versions of the stories.
I would wonder whether Numenor would represent the true technological high point - great ships, mighty armaments, bows or steel, fortresses such as Orthanc.
This is a round-about way of saying I still think I would go with dark age style helmets. If we had more modern visored helmets then we should also be seeing plate rather than mail.
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the 1st age was a golden age for everyone, not just the elves. we just know more about their part because the Silmarillion is an elvish chronicle, and they didn't talk much about what men and dwarves were up to.
and even in the 3rd age you saw a lot more than just the "dark ages" aesthetics. Imrahil and the knights of Dol Amroth had plate armor, and they were called a glimpse into the rise of Gondor in the 2nd age. so the idea that dwarves can't have anything other than dark ages aesthetics (aka "variations of chainshirts and spangelhelm everywhere you go" with the occasional scale and brigandine instead of chainmail) in the 3rd age much less the 1st seems a little disingenuous.
it gets even more so when you consider that while Oathmark is definitely Tolkein inspired, it is not middle earth, and as long as the result looks good alongside the existing Oathmark Dwarves, they can use whatever the heck they like for armor style inspiration and no one can say they are 'inaccurate', since it is a fantasy setting.
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That's true Mithril, but I must point out the masked Dwarves here are a 'Nick thing' and in no way anything to do with official Oathmark stuff. It's me goofing around with plastic bits, and musing on Tolkien's words.
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it gets even more so when you consider that while Oathmark is definitely Tolkein inspired, it is not middle earth, and as long as the result looks good alongside the existing Oathmark Dwarves, they can use whatever the heck they like for armor style inspiration and no one can say they are 'inaccurate', since it is a fantasy setting.
Might just have to agree to disagree on Tolkien armour and plate but fully agree about this being fantasy and Nick, I am sure, will do whatever he feels is right for his business. Personally, I will hope for mail and Dark age vibe but will happily await what ever comes out from Oathmark.
I do like Nick's own version in the original post - quite inspired :)
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Might just have to agree to disagree on Tolkien armour and plate
Imrahil showed that Eowyn was alive by displaying the effect of her breath on his "highly polished vambrace."
a vambrace is the arm plates (lower arm) in a suit of platemail, and for it to be highly polished it would have to be solid metal. since you would not be wearing vambraces without at minimum a cuirass and a set of greaves, this would indicate they were wearing either"half-plate" (the parts described) or full on gothic (aka 'full') plate armor. both of which are a late middle ages and renaissance armor technologies. combine that with things like the Shire having mantlepiece clocks (a 18th century technology), waistcoats (18th century clothing), etc, and it is clear that Tolkein didn't see himself limited to a specific real world period. it gets especially noticeable when you consider that Gondor largely seems to be 13th century (with some exceptions, like the Knights of Dol Amroth), but their biggest ally is a nation of horse riding 9th century Anglo-Saxon expies.
That's true Mithril, but I must point out the masked Dwarves here are a 'Nick thing' and in no way anything to do with official Oathmark stuff. It's me goofing around with plastic bits, and musing on Tolkien's words.
pretty sure the discussion grew out of the fact you'd mentioned;
We're actually going to incorporate masks into the helmet design of the 2nd Oathmark Dwarf box set
which sparked a discussion of what such masks might be like, using both real world and tolkien related inspirations.
since the existing box set covers the lighter units of a dwarf army (bowmen, basic spearmen and basic warriors), a 2nd set incorporating masks suggests a box of more heavily armored infantry.
(though i would hope that the 2nd Goblin box is wolf riders/cavalry. hard to find those with both good sculpts and a good price)
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Dwarves II masks.
Sorry, I didn't put that up for discussion, I just mentioned that we have put masks on the Oathmark Dwarf 2 box set, but they bear no relation to my mask-malarkey. It's not that I don't want to discuss them, it's just too late, they are being cut into steel as we speak.
I'll put pictures up here soon, but we've gone with something more like the earlier illustrations. The heavy armour on Dwarves II is banding and part plate over the chainmail rather than actual plate. Although there's a ME vibe to Dwarves I, that wasn't the brief for Dwarves II, but those who like Jackson's ME interpretations won't find them too way out.
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they are being cut into steel as we speak.
Keeping fingers crossed for SALUTE then. :P
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Sounds interesting, Nick.
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Salute is the plan, but it's in the hands of the steel cutters right now.
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Salute is the plan, but it's in the hands of the steel cutters right now.
That sounds appropriately dwarfish.
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are there 2nd sets for elves and goblins in the works as well?
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Aye, though Goblin Wolfriders first
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Aye, though Goblin Wolfriders first
Ooooooo!
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looking forward to seeing what those look like.
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I've had this guy kicking around in a box... (somewhere?) but here is a web pic
Ral Partha Imports
FA40
Dwarf Anti-Hero
(http://www.miniatures-workshop.com/lostminiswiki/images/thumb/3/3e/RP-FA-40.jpg/800px-RP-FA-40.jpg)
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Aye, though Goblin Wolfriders first
It only took a second after reading this to realise that my Dwarfs really need some mercenary Goblin Wolfriders! ;D