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Other Stuff => General Wargames and Hobby Discussion => Topic started by: Dent on May 20, 2019, 06:32:41 AM

Title: Missing product pictures in online miniatures shops
Post by: Dent on May 20, 2019, 06:32:41 AM
Am I the only one who gets frustrated that online sellers of figures don't have pictures of their product on there sites.


It is in my opinion, the very least they should do.
Title: Re: Online Miniatures shops
Post by: Plynkes on May 20, 2019, 06:34:41 AM
Indeed, that was always a bugbear of mine.  But honestly, it isn't something I have encountered for some years. Maybe I've just been lucky.

Title: Re: Online Miniatures shops
Post by: fred on May 20, 2019, 06:36:10 AM
It’s getting better, it tends to be the manufacturer with big old ranges, that are struggling to get the time to photograph their big back catalogs.
Title: Re: Online Miniatures shops
Post by: N.C.S.E on May 20, 2019, 06:54:58 AM
Unless I cannot get the stuff absolutely anywhere else - I take it to mean that a seller without pictures isn't really interested in my custom. I only break that rule if the miniatures are truly unique, otherwise, it's a safe bet, particularly with historicals, that someone else will have similar stuff available.

Title: Re: Online Miniatures shops
Post by: Hammers on May 20, 2019, 07:30:45 AM
Back in the day when I added a lot to the lead pile this drove me furious.
Title: Re: Online Miniatures shops
Post by: zemjw on May 20, 2019, 08:20:25 AM
Just as annoying as no pictures are tiny thumbnails that when you click on them to enlarge them, are still tiny thumbnails >:(

I'm finding I'm less forgiving these days if sites don't have pictures. However, a google image search often turns up something, especially if it's an older range.
Title: Re: Online Miniatures shops
Post by: Daeothar on May 20, 2019, 09:32:34 AM
Just as annoying as no pictures are tiny thumbnails that when you click on them to enlarge them, are still tiny thumbnails >:(

 lol Definitely a pet peeve, yes!

Online sellers not having decent pictures of their products might have been acceptable last century, but at this day and age, I find it extremely annoying and just plain lazy.

Now, if I really want a particular miniature, I will try and find pictures of it elsewhere. Usually this works. But if there are multiple ranges of the same subject matter, I will not even bother and simply go to those competitors who do have a good visual representation of their products...
Title: Re: Online Miniatures shops
Post by: Dr. Zombie on May 20, 2019, 09:41:14 AM
Oh this is not even a pet peeve. It is full on rampant rage.

It is unbelievable that there are still shops with no pictures of their products. It is 2019 for Croms sake. There are webshops that does not seem to have been updated since the 90's.

What really gets the blood boiling is Redoubt, who have drawings of their miniatures!? If you are going to take the time to upload a drawing, then why not upload a picture? It boggles the mind.
Title: Re: Online Miniatures shops
Post by: Westfalia Chris on May 20, 2019, 09:55:19 AM
What really gets the blood boiling is Redoubt, who have drawings of their miniatures!? If you are going to take the time to upload a drawing, then why not upload a picture? It boggles the mind.

I always found that rather quaint and charming, but I guess it stems from the fact that they still have the drawn images (back from when all their advertising used them, early 1990s WI issues come to mind) and, for capacity, cost, return-on-investment or whatever reasons, are unable or unwilling to produce photos to replace them all.

Given the large scope of Redoubt's ranges, I'd consider this understandable since it would be a lot of effort, though as pointed out before, if you wish to present a professional image these days, I'd say it is more or less required to have decent photos to illustrate your product.
Title: Re: Online Miniatures shops
Post by: tuco74 on May 20, 2019, 11:20:15 AM
Just as annoying as no pictures are tiny thumbnails that when you click on them to enlarge them, are still tiny thumbnails >:(

This. And in almost universal agreement with everybody else - why would I buy something of which I can't even see a picture?
Title: Re: Missing product pictures in online miniatures shops
Post by: fred on May 20, 2019, 11:28:06 AM
While as a customer I fully want to see nice photos of models. 

I think we need to understand the realties of most wargames businesses which are often single person business, often part-time. They have limited time and money, and spend most of both of these on fulfilling orders and commissioning new models. Updating websites is a lot further down the list of priorities. Especially if they are an establish business and are doing OK with their current business methods.

Newer miniature companies are doing much better, but its also a lot easier to photograph your range when it is 10 models, not 3000!
Title: Re: Missing product pictures in online miniatures shops
Post by: black hat miniatures on May 20, 2019, 01:43:21 PM
+1 Fred

If you take on a large range that has not been photographed before it takes a lot of time and effort to get the figures cast (all variants), cleaned up and then photographed, cropped and added to the website.

Time that never quite seems to be available.

When I bought Gladiator Miniatures in 2006 I fully intended to photograph the two ranges that hadn't been done (ECW and bliblicals) but when I sold the ranges 12 years later (!) I still hadn't managed to photograph more than a handful.

I had enough business from people that knew the ranges and were happy to buy them that I never had the time (or realistically, need) to photograph the whole range.

I find the comment that people are being lazy annoying - they aren't! They are making a conscious business decision based on the levels of business they have and the levels of business they want and can cope with.  If that annoys you then buy from someone else!

Mike

Title: Re: Missing product pictures in online miniatures shops
Post by: Daeothar on May 20, 2019, 02:50:05 PM
First I decided to not reply any further, but then I changed my mind.

I don't think that anyone is requiring a full spread of studio quality beauty-shots of professionally painted miniatures either. A simple phone-picture of a bare metal miniature would suffice for those of us not in the trusted inner circle of customers knowing the product already.

Or maybe ask some of those regular customers to send in pictures of their painted miniatures you can then put up on the store's pages? Most hobbyists would be thrilled to have their work displayed as the 'official studio models'. There are plenty of low-effort ways to put up pictures if you really want to.

But while I now understand that consciously deciding not to put up pictures on your web-store can be an actual strategy, it's still not one I was expecting from people making a living selling their products.

If one's livelihood is depending on those sales, I reckon it's not wise to just sell to people who already know the product, because for every customer who is intimately familiar with your product line, there are ten who aren't.

And to then state that such potential customers should take their business elsewhere if they don't like it does not strike me as a particularly good business model.

So if a dwindling existing customer base is enough for you to get by, by all means, do not put up pictures. Us ignorant folk not in the know will then take your advise and buy from someone else...
Title: Re: Missing product pictures in online miniatures shops
Post by: Antonio J Carrasco on May 20, 2019, 02:51:56 PM
If that annoys you then buy from someone else!


That's what clients do, don't they? I mean, they vote with their wallets.

I feel your pain. Truly, I do. I also have a shop, physical and online, and  it always seems that you have time for just a fraction of what you need to do. However, we live in a time when image is everything. If you don't have photos of your products and your competitors do, you are losing business. If you don't care about it, well, lucky you... I know I have not that much money to afford being that non-chalant with my clients' needs.
Title: Re: Missing product pictures in online miniatures shops
Post by: black hat miniatures on May 20, 2019, 03:09:17 PM

I am not saying that people are deliberately putting off customers, I am saying that people realise that not putting up pictures is going to affect their sales BUT the amount of effort to put up the pictures is better directed to other parts of their business such as new releases, sending out orders, attending shows, etc , etc  as that will earn them more money than adding pictures to their ranges.

It is simply a business decision about WHERE to put the effort in your business not an attempt to piss off potential customers.

And it has been shown by Geoff at QRF that adding photos to old ranges does NOT increase his sales of those codes...

There is a limit to how much can be done by a small one man business and if you are happy with running a business the way you want and you earn enough from it you don't need to chase new sales - look at Navwar as an example.

Not all us go into the business looking to grow to the size of GW

Mike


Title: Re: Missing product pictures in online miniatures shops
Post by: westwaller on May 20, 2019, 09:58:27 PM
Yep. It is really annoying and ridiculous. Almost as ridiculous as sites that don't have a telephone number and miniature companies that don't send their products out within a reasonable time. (Without a reasonable excuse or a notification of delay)
I don't buy miniatures that I can't see what they look like. In fact I went to a website just the other day and found that there wasn't a picture of what I wanted to buy, so no sale.
Title: Re: Missing product pictures in online miniatures shops
Post by: Nordic1980s on May 21, 2019, 10:19:34 PM
Good grief at the low quality apologetics:Now, the Mithril Medallion of Selfless Service to Mankind goes to all those bloggers, forum writers and wiki creators who answer online inquiries about various miniature lines, take size comparison shots and post detailed close-up shots. Some folks are even known to paint the miniature models (no joke) to showcase their potential for beauty of secondary creation. All those people are doing the merchants' work by voluntarily practising elementary level businessman craft – while not getting paid a penny for it.

Not all us go into the business looking to grow to the size of GW
How about two or three people? History has taught us great things can happen with that size of a crew (link (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Games_Workshop#History)).

Just as annoying as no pictures are tiny thumbnails that when you click on them to enlarge them, are still tiny thumbnails >:(
How about tiny thumbnails in webshops that are linked into even smaller images?
Title: Re: Missing product pictures in online miniatures shops
Post by: Ultravanillasmurf on May 22, 2019, 09:20:53 AM
Yes, it is annoying when a company has items on their website with no photographs. I would be unlikely to buy something without seeing it.

One of the problems is that  number of companies are small, and do not have in-house experitise on website management and contract it out. Having seen some of the eye-bleeding and brain melting designs of sites, they must have been conned.

If they have to pay for an update, it could well be financially a loser to pay to get a photograph of some elderly casting that you will sell six of put on your site.

And yes, clicking on a thumbnail and getting a little finger nail is just rubbish.it could be an issue with the content management system, file naming (also connected with the previous) or just poor communication between the web site management and the manufacturer.

There are some extraordinarily poor web shops out there, many seem to have a very close family resemblance.

They do not cater to all screen sizes (try looking at a number of sites on a tablet or smartphone - the header occupies most of the the screen).
Title: Re: Missing product pictures in online miniatures shops
Post by: Fighting15s on May 22, 2019, 12:52:36 PM
Good grief at the low quality apologetics:
  • it's too much of work to cast all the pieces – no it isn't, it's called YOUR JOB!
  • it's too much of work to photograph all the pieces – firstly it's called YOUR JOB; secondly eBayers and online auctioners routinely take hundreds and thousands of unique photos in improvised conditions in addition to their day jobs, family life and other daily chores, whereas sellers would need to take the stock photos only once per item type, would do it during their work hours and could arrange for a dedicated photo setup at their non-residential work place
  • fulfilling orders takes all the time – if the amount of gold and silver coming through doors and windows is felt overwhelming, a cheapo teen/summer help assistant or two will relieve one of physical work while not impacting too much the money flow (or perhaps even allowing for doubling or tripling the income).
How about two or three people? History has taught us great things can happen with that size of a crew (link (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Games_Workshop#History)).

As Mike patiently tried explaining, it may be "your job" but within that job you prioritise what you want in order to keep the greatest number of customers happy (he didn't use that language, but that's what he meant).

Fulfilling orders in a timely fashion always takes priority over everything else. The downside of failing in that regard is negative publicity and perceived unreliability. Reputation for quick, accurate delivery is more important than a full catalogue of pictures. A full catalogue of pictures is a bonus.

The vast number of unsatisfactory images on eBay show there is a difference between banging out images for a site full of tat or knock-offs and taking photographs that are commercially acceptable on a business website. What you've done its simply cite a source of unrelentingly dire pictures as an example of what can be done by people who just don't care or who have limited photographic ability. The wargames industry as a whole frequently demonstrates its inability to take good product shots - badly lit miniatures, glaring mould lines and obvious casting defects frequently appear on the news pages of some sites.

Not every small wargames business wants to grow past one person. Doing so nowadays requires obligations in the UK of sorting out workplace pensions and such, and therefore employing even one person (in addition to the owner) is going to be a non-starter if all the owner wants is a steady income and steady volume of work. I appreciate that in a money-driven culture that some people cannot understand why a business does not want to grow above a certain level of income and work, but none the less that's the basis on which a number of one-man bands work: a sufficiency of work and income to keep one fully occupied. Citing Games Workshop as what can become of something that starts small is irrelevant. Hiring a part-time monkey, therefore, is not actually an option for some.

I'm in the unusual position where I have taken on Mike's old range of 15mm figures that he never had time to re-photograph in 12 years. It's more than 800 codes that need casting before they can be photographed. Those photographs that exist are, by my standards (I used to work on a photography magazine), dire and tiny, done for a time when screens worked to a resolution of 640 x 480 pixels. On today's screens, they show as a relatively much smaller area, and may be no bigger than the thumbnail images generated by today's ecommerce software - technology has simply rendered those original images obsolete. My e-shop software has over the years increased its recommended size for product shots to the point where they're three times bigger than they once were. So that gives the lie to the statement that "you only need to take stock photos once".

It's a substantial job to take new photographs but not, as you say "too much of [sic] work", neither to do the casting nor to take the photographs because it simply takes time, and as part of "my job" I will indeed be working on new photographs when I'm not putting out orders because I know the existing images for Gladiator Miniatures are not up to today's standards. But orders will in every instance take priority.

One customer recently asked me: "Is there any chance of some new pictures." To which the answer was simply: "Yes, there is every chance."
Title: Re: Missing product pictures in online miniatures shops
Post by: black hat miniatures on May 22, 2019, 02:14:12 PM
Ian said it all far better than I could...

Mike
Title: Re: Missing product pictures in online miniatures shops
Post by: fred on May 22, 2019, 04:17:37 PM
I’m glad I didn’t post my initial response to Nordic 1980s as the three above are much more reasoned and polite than mine would have been...
Title: Re: Missing product pictures in online miniatures shops
Post by: Jagannath on May 22, 2019, 04:35:59 PM
Good grief.

Good grief at the low quality apologetics:
  • it's too much of work to cast all the pieces – no it isn't, it's called YOUR JOB!
  • it's too much of work to photograph all the pieces – firstly it's called YOUR JOB; secondly eBayers and online auctioners routinely take hundreds and thousands of unique photos in improvised conditions in addition to their day jobs, family life and other daily chores, whereas sellers would need to take the stock photos only once per item type, would do it during their work hours and could arrange for a dedicated photo setup at their non-residential work place
  • fulfilling orders takes all the time – if the amount of gold and silver coming through doors and windows is felt overwhelming, a cheapo teen/summer help assistant or two will relieve one of physical work while not impacting too much the money flow (or perhaps even allowing for doubling or tripling the income).
Now, the Mithril Medallion of Selfless Service to Mankind goes to all those bloggers, forum writers and wiki creators who answer online inquiries about various miniature lines, take size comparison shots and post detailed close-up shots. Some folks are even known to paint the miniature models (no joke) to showcase their potential for beauty of secondary creation. All those people are doing the merchants' work by voluntarily practising elementary level businessman craft – while not getting paid a penny for it.
 How about two or three people? History has taught us great things can happen with that size of a crew (link (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Games_Workshop#History)).
 How about tiny thumbnails in webshops that are linked into even smaller images?
Title: Re: Missing product pictures in online miniatures shops
Post by: Nordic1980s on May 23, 2019, 03:37:43 PM
An another field research day for grieftology – full steam ahead!  >:D
 
Not every small wargames business wants to grow past one person.
I wonder if any of those One Man Armies has ever thought that this just might have something to do with the occasionally erratic general level of smaller miniature businesses.

Doing so nowadays requires obligations in the UK of sorting out workplace pensions and such
This may shock the Anglos, but that has been the norm for large swathes of the industrial world at least since the 1950s. That's over 60 years ago. And we are doing just fine. So please, no more these special waivers and excuses.

and therefore employing even one person (in addition to the owner) is going to be a non-starter if all the owner wants is a steady income and steady volume of work.
To have a steady income with little or no work is the whole idea of organizing of work, aside from general efficiency. Now, perhaps some people like doing the various daily tasks of manufacturing, filling orders, taping shut cardboard boxes and alike. No problem with that.

I'm in the unusual position where I have taken on Mike's old range of 15mm figures that he never had time to re-photograph in 12 years. It's more than 800 codes that need casting before they can be photographed.
Ah, the classic procastination argument!  How about couple of moulds here and there? No need to have heaps of moulds or untold millions of cast model figures all present at once. Or even better yet: how about making a model photography an inherent part of casting process? I have witnessed with my own eyes how miniatures are spin-cast in a British factory setting and a simple cheapo camera setup aside the workbench would have fit like a glove. No need to be perfect. Anykind of photo > no photo.

The vast number of unsatisfactory images on eBay show there is a difference between banging out images for a site full of tat or knock-offs and taking photographs that are commercially acceptable on a business website. What you've done its simply cite a source of unrelentingly dire pictures
The eBay I know has a plenty of good quality photos, including of small items like stamps, coins, medallions and model figures. With amateur sellers sometimes emptying whole wardrobes and garages of stuff. Few times witnessed hobbyists offloading wargaming and hobby material rivalling in quantity a small hobby store's selection. Again, anykind of photo > no photo. Would you buy stuff from eBay if there were no item photos? I wouldn't.

So that gives the lie to the statement that "you only need to take stock photos once".
Shots are taken once, with editing (usually radical downsizing and lessening of quality) done on a publication by publication basis. No need to take stock photos more than once. In the magical age of scanners, film scanners, digital system cameras and commercial Photoshop plugin softwares, any old photo from decades ago can be conveniently re-sized into larger size, without any meaningful loss of quality.

The wargames industry as a whole frequently demonstrates its inability to take good product shots
To emulate the good aspects of earlier succesful business operations should not be seen as shameful but honourable instead. A simple research look at the old catalogues (link (http://solegends.com/citadel/catindex.htm)) may be of help to understand why consumers rewarded certain businesses consistently with monies, amongst other reasons. When one factors in the revolution of digital publishing in the early 2000s (little effort needed, little costs incurred, cheap or free publication platforms), I don't see any good arguments as to why consumer blindness could be accepted anymore. I just don't.

as part of "my job" I will indeed be working on new photographs
  Sounds good! Now, I'll proceed to bitch to this one other company for their non-existant item photos... (They won't take the clue telepathically, after all.)

A full catalogue of pictures is a bonus
...it used to be said in the 19th century! You guys need to catch up with modern times, for next year it's already 2020... (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/images/13/50354.jpg)
Title: Re: Missing product pictures in online miniatures shops
Post by: Ultravanillasmurf on May 23, 2019, 04:56:31 PM
@Nordic1980s - ah, I have a "paperless office" system I can sell you.

For the industrial world, yes but now that governments want to get elected by cutting taxes rather than providing the services that used to be paid for by those taxes, UK employers from one man and his dog on up have to provide a pension scheme by law, no exceptions.

Photography - Sally White had a posting on Forum of Doom on her methods, nice results but time consuming.

I do have my suspicions that some product photographs were taken with "high resolution" webcams in the days when that meant VGA (the local Wilko is still selling 640x480 resolution webcams).

Mobile 'phone cameras and compact cameras generally lack the control required for figure photography. I lament the loss of my SLR camera (old age).

Adding learning Photoshop to an existing workload is a non-starter, plus if I saw an obviously photoshopped photograph, I would wonder what else had been tweaked. Upscaling photographs is rarely successful without a of of work. Some people find the wonderful world of computer aided design "easy" (having marvelled at Rich H's transition to CAD/CAM), others do not.

I could go on, but I have some figures to paint.

To close, I like to see before I buy, I am a slightly special case that with a few notable exceptions (those that still do mail order) I only buy at shows and (where available) shops.

I understand that some vendors do not have the time or ability to provide photographs of all their products for various (quite often understandable) reasons. A number of these reasons have been laid out in this thread by a number of vendors.

Nordic1980s thinks otherwise, and of course is entitled to his/her opinion.
Title: Re: Missing product pictures in online miniatures shops
Post by: Fighting15s on May 23, 2019, 05:27:11 PM
@Nordic1980s Congratulations on using quotes in a manner that make it really hard to respond without the whole reply looking like a lapis legit.

For one, I'm not making excuses. The overriding priority of any small business is to put out orders first and do anything else second, something that you have not addressed. Again, it's reputation for prompt, accurate delivery that overrides any other concern.

For two, you clearly demonstrate that you do not understand how many one-man bands work in wargaming.

For three, despite this subject repeatedly doing the rounds on forums for every few years, the number of wargames businesses that have failed specifically because they do not have pictures of every product online is as far as I'm aware nil. Indeed, one wargames business whose site is very well illustrated has this week announced it is in trouble: it's not a lack of pictures but other factors that are more of an issue.

For four, your experience of eBay is different from mine. It's a world of poor or misleading pictures, although fortunately I don't need a picture of a 3/8ths Gripley to know what one is if I want one. And the thing about digital stock pictures taken years ago is that they cannot be enhanced. I've got several hundred rubbish ones that are beyond rescue electronically, and the only solution is to redo them.

For five, saying that there are 800 codes to cast before they are photographed is not procrastination. Quite clearly they get done in small batches, not all at once. And you can't simply photograph bare metal figures straight out of the mould, because that produces a result that is not commercially acceptable to anyone with any sense of quality. Any kind of photo is not better than no photo, because "any kind of photo" prompts requests from customers for better photos. As for why they aren't photographed as they are cast, see the point about fulfilling orders above all else, plus, for photography, the steps are casting, cleaning up, inking and waiting for the ink to dry, photography, picture editing. It's the sort of thing that people wait for a quiet spell to deal with, having quietly cast the figures during the normal process of fulfilling orders. But anyway, the mere fact that you're proposing that photographs be of unprepared figures (I've already got a stack of those) devalues any of your arguments and I can safely ignore you from now on. And also now that we've established your quality threshold for pictures is so low, it explains why you think eBay sellers do such a marvellous job.

For six, actually wargamers are well used to lists and ordering using them, particularly if they already have product by a company. Good practice is certainly to have all products illustrated, but even with 2020 looming the only vital ability is to be able to buy easily online. And even then, wargames businesses survive without that ability: a number of customers cannot cope with computers or electronic payment (and evidenced by the person who sent me 57 quid in cash through the post without including his name or address, even old tech is sometimes a bit confusing). A good proportion of my orders, for example, are placed by spouses who can cope.

Anyway, I'm sure 2025 will roll around soon enough and this topic will come up again. And you know what, nothing will change: fulfilling orders to maintain reputation will continue to be the driving priority, and businesses that fail to deliver promptly will continue to be a bigger concern for customers than businesses that do not provide a fully illustrated shop. I repeat that a fully illustrated catalogue of products remains a bonus.
Title: Re: Missing product pictures in online miniatures shops
Post by: warrenpeace on May 23, 2019, 05:52:32 PM
A decade to a decade and a half ago I was buying 28mm WSS figures by the box load. Those figures are the majority of my "lead mountain." I was heaving them onto yet another storage shelf after yet another move just last weekend. When I bought them the photos on the manufacturer's websites ranged from:

1. Foundry - great photos of painted minis
2. Front Rank - great photos of both painted and unpainted minis
3. Old Glory - difficult to see photos of unpainted minis, but adequate
4. Dixon - no or few photos, actually ordered a few samples first!
5. Imperialist Enterprises - no website, but drawings on mailed paper
6. Irregular - no drawings or photos that I remember, and no website?

I also used to buy 1:2400 scale WW1 ships, sometimes with no photo from C-in -C or Viking Forge or WTJ.

But that was OK for then. And now I have my big "lead mountain." Now I only buy a few figures for Pulp on rare occasion. No more massed armies for me. And no more buying figures without photos. If I ever buy anymore 28mm WSS again, it will be from Ebor, a company that shows adequate photos. And any further WW1 ships will be from WTJ, which has enough photos to give me an idea of quality.
Title: Re: Missing product pictures in online miniatures shops
Post by: Firescale Whack on May 24, 2019, 02:53:33 AM
A decade to a decade and a half ago I was buying 28mm WSS figures by the box load. Those figures are the majority of my "lead mountain." I was heaving them onto yet another storage shelf after yet another move just last weekend. When I bought them the photos on the manufacturer's websites ranged from:

1. Foundry - great photos of painted minis
2. Front Rank - great photos of both painted and unpainted minis
3. Old Glory - difficult to see photos of unpainted minis, but adequate
4. Dixon - no or few photos, actually ordered a few samples first!
5. Imperialist Enterprises - no website, but drawings on mailed paper
6. Irregular - no drawings or photos that I remember, and no website?

I also used to buy 1:2400 scale WW1 ships, sometimes with no photo from C-in -C or Viking Forge or WTJ.

But that was OK for then. And now I have my big "lead mountain." Now I only buy a few figures for Pulp on rare occasion. No more massed armies for me. And no more buying figures without photos. If I ever buy anymore 28mm WSS again, it will be from Ebor, a company that shows adequate photos. And any further WW1 ships will be from WTJ, which has enough photos to give me an idea of quality.


Irregular have a great website considering how large their range is.

http://www.irregularminiatures.co.uk/ (http://www.irregularminiatures.co.uk/)
Title: Re: Missing product pictures in online miniatures shops
Post by: Dent on May 24, 2019, 05:24:16 AM
While doing it at once would be great, taking pics of unphotographed figures as they are ordered would be a start. You can do it with a phone camera and a glossy light blue piece of paper for the back ground. It will take a while, but its a start.
Title: Re: Missing product pictures in online miniatures shops
Post by: Fighting15s on May 24, 2019, 06:55:28 AM
While doing it at once would be great, taking pics of unphotographed figures as they are ordered would be a start. You can do it with a phone camera and a glossy light blue piece of paper for the back ground. It will take a while, but its a start.

Again, such pictures are not of commercially acceptable quality. There is no point taking pictures of unprepared figures: detail is next to impossible to see. This is the sort of photograph that prompts the response from customers of "Do you have better photographs?".
Title: Re: Missing product pictures in online miniatures shops
Post by: v_lazy_dragon on May 24, 2019, 07:05:11 AM
Again, such pictures are not of commercially acceptable quality. There is no point taking pictures of unprepared figures: detail is next to impossible to see. This is the sort of photograph that prompts the response from customers of "Do you have better photographs?".
Or worse - those look awful, look at the poor/lack-of detail...
Title: Re: Missing product pictures in online miniatures shops
Post by: Antonio J Carrasco on May 24, 2019, 08:15:12 AM
But many manufacturers that are not much bigger than cottage industries manage to photograph -even paint!- most of their ranges. I am thinking of Aventine Miniatures, Footsore Miniatures (well, they have grown a lot in last couple of years!), Steel Fist Miniatures, ecc... Agreed that their ranges are not that big, but each new release is photographed before uploading in the website. Also, not always a great pro-photography is necessary; look at Iron Duke Miniature's photos of the Indian Mutiny range, at Empress Miniatures; many of them are photos that even with the best will can't be considered as professional, and yet they convene enough information to decide their customers to buy (my credit card knows!)

Of course, everyone manages his business as he feels right. I believe that photos are vital part of making business on-line, but that's me.
Title: Re: Missing product pictures in online miniatures shops
Post by: black hat miniatures on May 24, 2019, 08:34:09 AM
But many manufacturers that are not much bigger than cottage industries manage to photograph -even paint!- most of their ranges. I am thinking of Aventine Miniatures, Footsore Miniatures (well, they have grown a lot in last couple of years!), Steel Fist Miniatures, ecc... Agreed that their ranges are not that big, but each new release is photographed before uploading in the website. Also, not always a great pro-photography is necessary; look at Iron Duke Miniature's photos of the Indian Mutiny range, at Empress Miniatures; many of them are photos that even with the best will can't be considered as professional, and yet they convene enough information to decide their customers to buy (my credit card knows!)

Of course, everyone manages his business as he feels right. I believe that photos are vital part of making business on-line, but that's me.

And as far as I am aware no one has released a new range without photographing it as they went a long in recent years.  It is the people who, like Ian and myself, have inherited large ranges that haven't been photographed as they date from pre-internet who have not been able to find the time to get them all photographed.

My new ranges through Imperial Miniatures have no photos (last on the market in 2007 with minimal website) and there are 3-4,000 54mm figures to cast, assemble, paint and photograph - that is going to take a while...

Mike
Title: Re: Missing product pictures in online miniatures shops
Post by: Yuber Okami on May 24, 2019, 10:00:53 AM
Good grief at the low quality apologetics:
  • it's too much of work to cast all the pieces – no it isn't, it's called YOUR JOB!
  • it's too much of work to photograph all the pieces – firstly it's called YOUR JOB; secondly eBayers and online auctioners routinely take hundreds and thousands of unique photos in improvised conditions in addition to their day jobs, family life and other daily chores, whereas sellers would need to take the stock photos only once per item type, would do it during their work hours and could arrange for a dedicated photo setup at their non-residential work place
  • fulfilling orders takes all the time – if the amount of gold and silver coming through doors and windows is felt overwhelming, a cheapo teen/summer help assistant or two will relieve one of physical work while not impacting too much the money flow (or perhaps even allowing for doubling or tripling the income).

 (https://media.giphy.com/media/UTT6QbG4EPOIE/giphy.gif)

But I fear it has a lot to do with taxes - in some countries, if you get less than X money from your small, secondary business you don't get to pay any taxes. Expanding may become a tax management nightmare and a lot of work some people don't want because of age or any other considerations (I know for sure Navwar's owner is in that club). Yeah, they could try to scale up the business, but not everybody is willing to sacrifice a comfortable, stable job for the excitements of becoming a business-owner.
Title: Re: Missing product pictures in online miniatures shops
Post by: Fighting15s on May 24, 2019, 10:19:44 AM
Anyway, to illustrate why a benchtop shot just isn't good enough: three pictures. One unedited, complete with benchtop, taken moments after casting this morning, using a phone; a second edited, polishing the turd as much as possible. Both are unacceptable for commercial use. The third, one I prepared earlier, is a properly inked, evenly lit and edited picture using a camera - and the only one good enough for use (sorry it's a different figure).

(http://www.fighting15sshop.co.uk/blog/wp-content/uploads/sites/428/2019/05/workbench_600x.jpg)

(http://www.fighting15sshop.co.uk/blog/wp-content/uploads/sites/428/2019/05/workbench_600x_edit.jpg)

(http://www.fighting15sshop.co.uk/blog/wp-content/uploads/sites/428/2018/09/gm-an001-noble_x500.jpg)


To suggest that a quick shot taken during manufacture can then be used as the basis of a stock photo that will last years and always be available to re-edit and enhance is quite simply a nonsense.
Title: Re: Missing product pictures in online miniatures shops
Post by: Fighting15s on May 24, 2019, 10:23:19 AM
My new ranges through Imperial Miniatures have no photos (last on the market in 2007 with minimal website) and there are 3-4,000 54mm figures to cast, assemble, paint and photograph - that is going to take a while...

You should really add that as you are casting and painting them, they get photographed for the site! Before someone accuses you of procrastinating. ;)
Title: Re: Missing product pictures in online miniatures shops
Post by: Fighting15s on May 24, 2019, 10:40:22 AM
But many manufacturers that are not much bigger than cottage industries manage to photograph -even paint!- most of their ranges. I am thinking of Aventine Miniatures, Footsore Miniatures (well, they have grown a lot in last couple of years!), Steel Fist Miniatures, ecc... Agreed that their ranges are not that big, but each new release is photographed before uploading in the website. Also, not always a great pro-photography is necessary; look at Iron Duke Miniature's photos of the Indian Mutiny range, at Empress Miniatures; many of them are photos that even with the best will can't be considered as professional, and yet they convene enough information to decide their customers to buy (my credit card knows!)

Of course, everyone manages his business as he feels right. I believe that photos are vital part of making business on-line, but that's me.

Unfortunately, as owners of wargames businesses we can't comment on what we think about the quality of pictures on other wargames businesses' websites - it's unprofessional. However, in general, I think it's important for the style of the photographs within a range to be consistent otherwise a site starts to look a bit of a mess.

I don't actually need convincing that photos are an important part of trading online, but customer satisfaction about their orders (i.e. speed of processing and delivery) comes first. When news that I was taking over Gladiator broke, I wasn't asked when I would have new photographs of the miniatures, I was asked how long it would be before customers would be able to buy the figures again. Similarly, if there are new releases from Eureka or AB without pictures, I don't get asked whether I have pictures: I get asked when they will be in stock and how soon can customers buy them.
Title: Re: Missing product pictures in online miniatures shops
Post by: black hat miniatures on May 24, 2019, 11:14:04 AM


But I fear it has a lot to do with taxes - in some countries, if you get less than X money from your small, secondary business you don't get to pay any taxes. Expanding may become a tax management nightmare and a lot of work some people don't want because of age or any other considerations (I know for sure Navwar's owner is in that club). Yeah, they could try to scale up the business, but not everybody is willing to sacrifice a comfortable, stable job for the excitements of becoming a business-owner.

Black Hat Miniatures has been my sole income since 2011, but I have never had any intentions of scaling up the business and have now downsized slightly as it generates enough income (I have earned around the average UK wage for those years) and I have no intention of working all hours there are making toy soldiers...

Mike


Title: Re: Missing product pictures in online miniatures shops
Post by: Jagannath on May 24, 2019, 11:24:27 AM
Strikes me there's some voices in here that don't know how lucky we all are. Lots of wargames businesses are essentially hobby, and we're lucky these folks sink their cash, time and effort to allow us to have access to miniatures they've produced.

So 'Thanks' to those below and others mini sellers reading this - photos or not.
Title: Re: Missing product pictures in online miniatures shops
Post by: Tactalvanic on May 24, 2019, 11:25:12 AM
As an overstressed/underslept.. professional IT employee I enjoy my little hobby.

I appreciate the hard work of others sometimes..

AS such its nice to see clear piccies of what is on offer when I go looking for an extension/extra geological layer for my mountain of madness in miniature.

That said, I can fully appreciate, an old range, with either no or old crap 70s pictures, etc - don't necessarily get photo'd and published all nice on the modern internet.

Frankly if I am looking for old stuff,

1. I am glad some old codger  :D, somewhere is still making them available..
2. I fully expect I might have to check lost minnies etc and other places to clarify what they might look like...

That's my choice, other peoples choices are up to them.

I don't particularly want to overwork the elderly ranges/owners. as then neither might be available anymore...

Joking aside.

Whats clear here is that manufacturers are here, seeing this subject (again) and feeding back politely some reasons why its as it is, and some in some ways suggesting how they are working on it.

Thanks guys!

Although the camera idea on the production line keeps reminding me of Jabberwocky smithy scene

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QcGtOsEUPgo


Which has now made me aware they are re-mastering it apparently in 4k!

There's pictures (moving) available for it to..
 
Title: Re: Missing product pictures in online miniatures shops
Post by: Antonio J Carrasco on May 24, 2019, 11:45:56 AM
Unfortunately, as owners of wargames businesses we can't comment on what we think about the quality of pictures on other wargames businesses' websites - it's unprofessional. However, in general, I think it's important for the style of the photographs within a range to be consistent otherwise a site starts to look a bit of a mess.

I don't actually need convincing that photos are an important part of trading online, but customer satisfaction about their orders (i.e. speed of processing and delivery) comes first. When news that I was taking over Gladiator broke, I wasn't asked when I would have new photographs of the miniatures, I was asked how long it would be before customers would be able to buy the figures again. Similarly, if there are new releases from Eureka or AB without pictures, I don't get asked whether I have pictures: I get asked when they will be in stock and how soon can customers buy them.

Ian

AB or Eureka are not good examples, I am afraid! After all, both are very well established brands with a loyal customer basis that know exactly what they are buying, even without pictures involved (I know I am one of those customers!.. as an aside, how is it going the transfer of AB/Eureka? Have you found a new distributor yet? I need to put an order soon, but don't know if I should do it now or wait until the transfer is completed... decisions, decisions!)

Mind that I understand and sympathize with you and Mike. I get how much work is involved in photographing and editing (seven years working in an advertisement agency and then another four in a magazine!). As I said, nobody better than the guy that pay the bills to know what is good or not for his business. And yet I stand by my earlier message: we live in a world where image is half the sale; to expand your client basis you will need photographs of your models. Although, I don't think we disagree there, do we?

Best
Antonio
Title: Re: Missing product pictures in online miniatures shops
Post by: Captain Harlock on May 26, 2019, 01:36:13 AM
My opinion as a customer, but also as a professional working in advertising, im a graphic designer, is that there is no excuse for at least displaying the product you sell. 20 years ago it would take alot of money to hire a photographer, or countless hours plus materials if you had the skill and equipment. Nowdays there are so many solutions that can cut the costs and time significantly. I mean common guys there are so many available mini photo booths exactly for small objects and most eshops now have very easy control panels unlike the ones of the early internet days.
You are selling something that its 100% about appearence. Thats the number one factor judging a miniature. its like going to the store and not be able to see what you buy. Would you accept that? I think not.
Its not only about the product, its about the overall image of a business. A good looking and most of all functional eshop, plays a great role for your company prestige. The goal is to appear as something bigger than you are or at least as reliable as an established company.
It boggles my mind seeing people having badly maintained webpages, being unresponsive to messages, or not have correct contact or shipping info. Would you order from a website that appears shady? I guess no. Why would anybody else?
Title: Re: Missing product pictures in online miniatures shops
Post by: Ultravanillasmurf on May 26, 2019, 08:21:57 AM
@Captain Harlock - you are obliquely hitting one of the points.

Twenty years ago it cost money to get stuff professionally photographed, now anyone can point an autofocus camera at at a figure, slap it on a e-commerce site and think job done.

And it shows. Geocities may be gone, by the echoes linger like a bad meal.

I suspect a number of vendors spent a lot of money on the original sites, and are probably stuck with them and the arcane workings involved.

Fighting15s' demonstration above shows how difficult it is to get a good shot, and most people looking for some ancient relic item for their collection probably have the paper catalogue with the line drawings anyway.

I think I resyked all my GZG catalogues.

New stuff, not much excuse (a bare metal shot and preferably a painted one).
Title: Re: Missing product pictures in online miniatures shops
Post by: Charlie_ on May 26, 2019, 08:44:48 AM
I can understand the arguments given in favour of businesses here. If it really is a small one-man operation, and you're doing just fine as you are, and photographing could well be a near impossible undertaking given the examples of inheriting massive older ranges that will need to be cast in full before they can be photographed.....Fair enough. It's your business, you can do what you want with it, and if you've got regular customers who earn you a living, then why change?

However from a customer's point of view, all I can say is it is genuinely MASSIVELY FRUSTRATING and INFURIATING when you can't find pictures of figures you might be interested in buying. And old, out-of-date, bizarrely designed websites are HUGELY OFF-PUTTING, and I for one can name many personal examples of where I have been considering buying something, and in the end have decided not to.

Again, maybe this doesn't matter. Maybe the business doesn't need to grow, or it isn't desired. Maybe it doesn't need or want any new customers. And I can empathise with the reasons for not updating or taking photos, and not being up to date with replying to emails. But god damn it's annoying from the potential customer's point of view.
Title: Re: Missing product pictures in online miniatures shops
Post by: Captain Harlock on May 26, 2019, 10:20:52 AM
@Captain Harlock - you are obliquely hitting one of the points.

Twenty years ago it cost money to get stuff professionally photographed, now anyone can point an autofocus camera at at a figure, slap it on a e-commerce site and think job done.

And it shows. Geocities may be gone, by the echoes linger like a bad meal.

I suspect a number of vendors spent a lot of money on the original sites, and are probably stuck with them and the arcane workings involved.

Fighting15s' demonstration above shows how difficult it is to get a good shot, and most people looking for some ancient relic item for their collection probably have the paper catalogue with the line drawings anyway.

I think I resyked all my GZG catalogues.

New stuff, not much excuse (a bare metal shot and preferably a painted one).

I wont be the one to diminish the importance of the work of professional photographers. After all money have to go around.
But if I was the owner of a small miniature company, and it was well beyond my budget to hire somebody, then I would buy or even make a small photo booth. Its a controled enviroment that allows you to take at least decent photos and if you want to go the extra mile, even good photos. I dont say that its child's play, but its not as hard as most people think.

Title: Re: Missing product pictures in online miniatures shops
Post by: Blackwolf on May 26, 2019, 09:00:56 PM
If taking photos is so easy,why don't we see more threads on the of LAF members work? Come on,we can't  all be insecure about our painting standards...


Title: Re: Missing product pictures in online miniatures shops
Post by: Gibby on May 26, 2019, 10:22:00 PM
If taking photos is so easy,why don't we see more threads on the of LAF members work? Come on,we can't  all be insecure about our painting standards...

I am. I'm strictly tabletop standard (if I actually want to get projects done; I can paint quite well if I spend 8 hours per model) so I cannot compete with the talent shown on this board. :D
Title: Re: Missing product pictures in online miniatures shops
Post by: Captain Harlock on May 26, 2019, 11:46:19 PM
If taking photos is so easy,why don't we see more threads on the of LAF members work? Come on,we can't  all be insecure about our painting standards...
It depends what you mean ''so easy''. It takes some basic skills. And its a relation of effort vs need. I wasnt aware that we lack photos in LAF, I think that anyone who wants to share something with the community does it despite the lack of equipment or skill. In fact if the average modeller feels the urge to show his work and tries his best even with a mobile phone camera, then there are even less excuses for professionals that actually SELL products or services.
Title: Re: Missing product pictures in online miniatures shops
Post by: Blackwolf on May 27, 2019, 12:14:53 AM
I am. I'm strictly tabletop standard (if I actually want to get projects done; I can paint quite well if I spend 8 hours per model) so I cannot compete with the talent shown on this board. :D
Haha, indeed. I look at a lot of my threads and think "bloody awful".
Title: Re: Missing product pictures in online miniatures shops
Post by: grant on May 27, 2019, 06:03:02 AM
Am I the only one who gets frustrated that online sellers of figures don't have pictures of their product on there sites.


It is in my opinion, the very least they should do.

Far too common; too many shops are just utter crap. Amateur business, to be sure.
Title: Re: Missing product pictures in online miniatures shops
Post by: Cubs on May 27, 2019, 09:18:37 AM
Amateur business, to be sure.

Nail on the head really. If a business is meant to be a little earner on the side to combine hobby with income, and they're happy to keep it ticking along on a semi-casual basis, then God bless them and all who sail in them. I guess not everyone wants their business to expand because the extra money means the business will grow beyond what they want it to be. I won't buy a product unless I can see what it is, so an absence of photographs would put me off buying, but perhaps maintaining customer numbers to a trickle is actually a boon to some little operations. Repeat custom or those who see the products elsewhere (online, at shows or clubs) will keep enough filthy lucre incoming.

From my own perspective, I always have more painting work than I can handle and actively turn away more work than I accept. Hiring someone else is neither practical nor desirable and real life dictates I can't dedicate more hours to my painting desk, so I'm not interested in expanding my business.

So yeah, I get the argument on both sides.
Title: Re: Missing product pictures in online miniatures shops
Post by: Captain Blood on May 27, 2019, 11:25:12 AM
If taking photos is so easy,why don't we see more threads on the of LAF members work? Come on,we can't  all be insecure about our painting standards...

Guy, you dangerous maverick, what a radical idea  lol
A little less conversation; a little more wargaming, modelling and painting action would be a welcome development where a few, um.. contributors are concerned ;)
Title: Re: Missing product pictures in online miniatures shops
Post by: MagpieJono on May 27, 2019, 02:33:52 PM
Not sure if it's just me but I'm always disappointed if store images aren't of models painted to a high standard. The inked bare metal doesn't do it for me.

Yes I appreciate that this may be out of the question for many small businesses.
Title: Re: Missing product pictures in online miniatures shops
Post by: Coenus Scaldingus on May 27, 2019, 04:37:58 PM
In an ideal world, I'd love it if every product had both a painted and unpainted picture - unpainted (though for metal figures, certainly inked) shows what you're getting, painted what it could become. From either independently, you can't always tell what level of detail a figure has (limited contrast on the bare sculpt, too much detail painted on when painted). In the real world, I'm of course perfectly fine with just a single picture, be it of an unpainted model, one painted to tabletop standard or one with a very professional paintjob. But I won't purchase something if I haven't the faintest clue what I'm getting. If based on other pictures/previous experience, I know the general quality of the range is good, perhaps, and then only if the thing I need it for doesn't require very particular details, a particular pose, etc. With postage costs and shipping times, I'd rather get everything I need for a little project in one fell swoop, so there is limited ability to get a few minis as a trial, and purchasing all with nothing to go on would be an expensive gamble.

I understand why not all ranges may be visually available (yet), and that's fine. I'd still rather have no pictures, than the aformentioned occasions where there is a fairly small picture, you click on it to enlarge, and then somehow an even smaller version of that picture shows up. That's just a trap. False hope.
Title: Re: Missing product pictures in online miniatures shops
Post by: thebinmann on May 27, 2019, 04:55:21 PM
Am I the only one who gets frustrated that online sellers of figures don't have pictures of their product on there sites.


It is in my opinion, the very least they should do.

I hope you don't want to use 6mm and 10mm they seem to be the worst offenders..
Title: Re: Missing product pictures in online miniatures shops
Post by: Ultravanillasmurf on May 27, 2019, 07:04:39 PM
Not sure if it's just me but I'm always disappointed if store images aren't of models painted to a high standard. The inked bare metal doesn't do it for me.

Yes I appreciate that this may be out of the question for many small businesses.
My concern with painted figures is you do not see what the figure looks like, you have no idea how much filling and filing has taken place.

Inked bare metal is a bit more honest (of course they are probably master mouldings, not production ones).
Title: Re: Missing product pictures in online miniatures shops
Post by: Fighting15s on May 28, 2019, 05:42:52 PM
Not sure if it's just me but I'm always disappointed if store images aren't of models painted to a high standard. The inked bare metal doesn't do it for me.

Yes I appreciate that this may be out of the question for many small businesses.

The issue here is that good painting can really polish a turd, adding detail where there isn't. Pictures of painted figures are an aid to customers who want to know how to paint their troops. A picture of an inked bare metal figure doesn't give a lack of detail anywhere to hide.
Title: Re: Missing product pictures in online miniatures shops
Post by: Fighting15s on May 28, 2019, 05:51:32 PM

AB or Eureka are not good examples, I am afraid! After all, both are very well established brands with a loyal customer basis that know exactly what they are buying, even without pictures involved (I know I am one of those customers!.. as an aside, how is it going the transfer of AB/Eureka? Have you found a new distributor yet? I need to put an order soon, but don't know if I should do it now or wait until the transfer is completed... decisions, decisions!)

However, the criticism given earlier is that wargames businesses that do not provide pictures are therefore relying on a declining customer base of people who know what a range looks like. Being AB or Eureka doesn't therefore exempt a product code from having a picture. I regret that I cannot comment any further for professional reasons.

Any decision on a new distributor is out of my control. I have had a number of requests for information, which I have fulfilled as honestly and openly as I can by highlighting the positives and negatives of the arrangement, but the decision remains one for Nic at Eureka and Tony at AB. I still have good stocks of many codes, and items that I cast under licence continue to be available.
Title: Re: Missing product pictures in online miniatures shops
Post by: FramFramson on May 28, 2019, 06:47:46 PM
My concern with painted figures is you do not see what the figure looks like, you have no idea how much filling and filing has taken place.

Inked bare metal is a bit more honest (of course they are probably master mouldings, not production ones).
I do appreciate the sellers who use inked bare metal. Alternately, really good photos of bare metal can be as good, but that takes a good setup and some skill (Hasslefree is a good example here - they seem to use a mix of inked and untouched).

I can't blame any shop for using painted images though. I don't see why a business wouldn't try to, er, paint their offerings in the best possible light.
Title: Re: Missing product pictures in online miniatures shops
Post by: Calimero on May 28, 2019, 07:14:24 PM

I've been tempted to order from them for years... but, never came around their truly awful website;

http://www.rhmodels.com/index.html

 >:(
Title: Re: Missing product pictures in online miniatures shops
Post by: Storm Wolf on May 28, 2019, 09:44:22 PM
I've been tempted to order from them for years... but, never came around their truly awful website;

http://www.rhmodels.com/index.html

 >:(

Last update 2010😵
Title: Re: Missing product pictures in online miniatures shops
Post by: Elbows on May 28, 2019, 10:01:11 PM
As a consumer, it's very simple.

Unless I see a reasonable picture of your product - I'm not buying it.  If I'm very interested in X, Y or Z and I can find pictures of it on google or a well done YouTube review, you may get a pass - but I'd likely send along an email heavily suggesting you change the way you showcase wares.

If you're fortunate enough that I've bought numerous things from you in the past and you simply haven't added pics of the "newest" item, maybe you'll get lucky and I'll go on faith.  I know some historical gamers who own hundreds or thousands of minis from certain sculptors - and they'd likely jump on a blank listing because they know the quality of the sculptor and are comfortable with that risk.

As someone with a couple thousand eBay sales under my belt, I have massive folders full of thousands upon thousands of images I've taken of everything I've ever sold on eBay.  Using a decent camera or my phone, and basic backdrops.  There isn't much to it at all.  If you need to ink/wash minis...that's part of your job.  Your sales are directly tied to how much work you're going to put in.  If you're established enough to run off reputation - good for you.

I've seen websites and companies all over the spectrum.  The worst are ones with no images.  The second worst are the ones with poorly painted miniatures as the only image - this is damaging to the company.  Just as paint can hide all kinds of flaws, a shit paint job will just as soon ruin the quality of miniature.  Both are things that'll turn me off from buying minis.

For large ranges (for instance, if you sell 30 different French Old Guard miniatures...etc.) at least provide close inked pictures of 5-6 with a note "there are 30 poses, similar to the above" so we at least have an idea of what you're selling.  I don't need to eyeball each infantry figure in a massive regiment, but I want to see what the quality of the sculpt is before I spend any money.

It's less and less a problem nowdays, but there are still some companies out there just ignoring money.
Title: Re: Missing product pictures in online miniatures shops
Post by: Fighting15s on May 29, 2019, 06:52:25 AM

It's less and less a problem nowdays, but there are still some companies out there just ignoring money.

Which shows that you’re missing the point. As I wrote earlier: “I appreciate that in a money-driven culture that some people cannot understand why a business does not want to grow above a certain level of income and work, but none the less that's the basis on which a number of one-man bands work: a sufficiency of work and income to keep one fully occupied.”
Title: Re: Missing product pictures in online miniatures shops
Post by: FramFramson on May 29, 2019, 05:51:36 PM
Last update 2010😵

The Yahoo Groups link is especially hilarious.  ;D
Title: Re: Missing product pictures in online miniatures shops
Post by: Shahbahraz on May 29, 2019, 07:24:19 PM
The Yahoo Groups link is especially hilarious.  ;D

Don't knock it, email lists are still a good push tech, especially for digests. Think of it as a newsletter :) I'm still on quite a few yahoo groups that I use exclusively via email. For folks with intermittent or slow connectivity they are great.
Title: Re: Missing product pictures in online miniatures shops
Post by: Elbows on May 31, 2019, 05:34:20 PM
Which shows that you’re missing the point. As I wrote earlier: “I appreciate that in a money-driven culture that some people cannot understand why a business does not want to grow above a certain level of income and work, but none the less that's the basis on which a number of one-man bands work: a sufficiency of work and income to keep one fully occupied.”

Nope, not missing the point at all.  I know full well a lot of hobbyist companies are afraid of gaining more business than they can manage.  But unless you're stating that on your website or page, my default assumption as a consumer is simple: this company exists to sell products and make profit.  That is absolutely the default assumption anyone makes.  If your website clearly states "Hey, this is my hobby, I do it for fun and some extra cash, so shoot me an email if you have questions" - then awesome for you.

It's not a clever excuse to not promote your wares if consumers don't know that.  They just assume the company is poorly run or advertised, etc.
Title: Re: Missing product pictures in online miniatures shops
Post by: jetengine on June 01, 2019, 06:46:33 AM
- look at Navwar as an example.

You mean the website where I was 100% interested in purchasing ships from but immediately decided against as soon as his website revealed it was from the dark ages ?

How so you ask ? Well It had....
No pictures.
No paypal
No E-mail address
NO TELEPHONE
If you wish to order you have to post or fax everything.

I'm sorry this isnt the 1980s. So he didnt get my money.
Title: Re: Missing product pictures in online miniatures shops
Post by: Ultravanillasmurf on June 01, 2019, 12:51:36 PM
Well this thread is evolving...

The original thread concept seems to have split between those who expect professional photographs of every item no matter what on super hi-tech websites because everyone should aspire to be the Norweb Federation, and those that understand the "hobby" scale of some suppliers and that technical skills can be a limit.

I can understand the annoyance of the former, and the exasperation of the latter with the former.

The only answer is that the former can vote with their money, going on about it is not going to change attitudes.

I'm sorry this isnt the 1980s. So he didnt get my money.
That web site is certainly an outlier, possibly it is a first generation site (I have to admit to not being interested enough to look).

What you have to consider is the target customer, will they be happy with what they see? How do they expect to interact and pay for the goods?

In another hobby environment, one of the most successful traders in O Gauge model railways has used a very simple but comprehensive website for twenty odd years.
http://www.tower-models.com/ (http://www.tower-models.com/)
It does have photographs of new products, but there are plenty where it does not.
If you want a Parkside kit of a LNER ex NBR JUBILEE COAL WAGON, you probably know what it looks like.

They are successful because their prices are cutting edge, the advantage is that most items are a lot more expensive than your average wargame item(even Forge World).

Their chief mode of interaction is by telephone. Their customers are happy and comfortable with this mode (they also do old fashioned mail order and accept cheques).

As more and more people become comfortable with on-line ordering, then companies that do not offer that service may find it harder to be profitable. However, those companies are likely to retire ranges, but they are likely to be happy with that.

Evolution is survival of the fittest, those that best fit their environment. When that environment changes,  then those that do not have the capacity to meet those changes will suffer.
Title: Re: Missing product pictures in online miniatures shops
Post by: Fighting15s on June 03, 2019, 07:15:06 AM
Nope, not missing the point at all.  I know full well a lot of hobbyist companies are afraid of gaining more business than they can manage.  But unless you're stating that on your website or page, my default assumption as a consumer is simple: this company exists to sell products and make profit.  That is absolutely the default assumption anyone makes.  If your website clearly states "Hey, this is my hobby, I do it for fun and some extra cash, so shoot me an email if you have questions" - then awesome for you.

It's not a clever excuse to not promote your wares if consumers don't know that.  They just assume the company is poorly run or advertised, etc.

You are still missing the point. It’s not being afraid of taking on more work than can be managed, it’s about having a sufficient amount of work to be occupied to the extent that the owner wants to be occupied. And that can be done quite easily on a profit basis. As I’ve said before, the concept that someone will work on the basis that they have sufficient money coming in is difficult to comprehend in a money-driven society. But in essence, it’s about work-life balance. It's more complicated than polarizing the approach of people into either a full-on drive for profit or being laid-back hobbyists.
Title: Re: Missing product pictures in online miniatures shops
Post by: Dent on June 03, 2019, 02:58:56 PM
When I started this thread I was thinking that as a min, something like the old 25mm cat available on the minifig site, a line of figures with the code under them, I wasn't expecting an award winner, though the higher quality the better. 
Title: Re: Missing product pictures in online miniatures shops
Post by: Elbows on June 04, 2019, 05:42:04 PM
You are still missing the point. It’s not being afraid of taking on more work than can be managed, it’s about having a sufficient amount of work to be occupied to the extent that the owner wants to be occupied. And that can be done quite easily on a profit basis. As I’ve said before, the concept that someone will work on the basis that they have sufficient money coming in is difficult to comprehend in a money-driven society. But in essence, it’s about work-life balance. It's more complicated than polarizing the approach of people into either a full-on drive for profit or being laid-back hobbyists.

I'm afraid you're continuing to miss my point.

As a consumer, I don't care about "why" you do something.  By the way I'm not trying to be a dick, I'm giving you a bluntly honest and pragmatic approach from a consumer.  I have no idea who you are or what you even make.  As I stated above, the default assumption of every consumer is that a company wants to sell things - or else, why would it exist?  Our default assumption is not "They probably only want to sell X, because that's enough for them."  No one assumes that. It's not about some cultural bias about making money, it's just the defacto status of being a business.  You exist for profit.  Our assumption is that you'd probably like to sell as much as you can.

Our default view is not "Well they're probably making enough to satisfy themselves and that's why they don't have pictures of the items they actually sell on their web-page".  That's not what goes through any consumer's head.

It has nothing to do with being too noble to not chase additional sales, etc. etc.   As a consumer I don't know you (for the purposes of this argument "you" is not directed at you, but rather any business, regardless of scale), and I don't much care.  I'm looking for a product and you're in a competing market.  That's all I see.