Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => Age of Myths, Gods and Empires => Topic started by: jetengine on June 04, 2019, 10:41:53 AM
-
So SPQR, what do we know....
1. Skirmish* combat in the ancient world, this implies its not just Roman era.
2. D6 based
3. Warband size
4. Release late july
5. Mixture of already existing warlord plastics and heroes made in "Single or multi piece plastic, which will be the way forward, maybe restic/resin-plastic mix"
6. Starter is Cesarian Romans vs Gallic Celts
7. Hero focused, customise what your heroes can do, some kind of talent tree to advance heroes.
8. Games between 25-45 mins, this ties with the campaign tree because you can have multiple games in one night
9. Bolt Action style random activation (grab a token/dice/etc from a bag)
10. Infantry, Cavalry, some warmachines (a scorpion has been mentioned)
11. Mercenaries can be bought
12. You can use elephants
13. More factions will be added if the game is successful.
*With more recent information released this has been revealed to be a warband game not a skirmish game.
-
Seems to be a few of these coming out at the moment. I'll be interested to have a look at what it's like...
-
Wow. Good news!!
The problem is my workbench overcrowded with greeks, samurai and coming soon... Romans:-)
Besides, I like this kind of games easy to play in between big battles at local club.
Is there a site where I can see more info please?
Marco
-
This sounds good, and I might be able to resurrect a couple of stalled projects that I'll never finish in 28mm.
By Ancients, does it mean the DBM style Ancients that runs up to 1500, or Ancients as until an earlier cut-off point before about 1000ce?
But definitely interested, this looks good. I've got some of those lovely Warlord Spanish to do v soon and I'm wondering to base them individually for this now.
-
The guy in the interview wasn't massively specific but said "Romans, greeks and maybe vikings"
-
Lot of little skirmish games for ancients popping up
Hard to keep up with them all but this looks nice :)
-
Lot of little skirmish games for ancients popping up
Hard to keep up with them all but this looks nice :)
Indeed! But as the saying goes: the more, the merrier!
-
I hope they'll include Thracians. I think I could just about manage painting a force of them for this size of game o_o
-
Link for source? Thanks
-
Or.. maybe you know? Will Greeks be playable upon initial release?
-
"SPQR" as a title is a bit of a crowded field - it's been the flagship for GMT Games' long-standing Great Battles in History series and there's the Polemos SPQR big battle rules from Baccus.
Chris
-
Or.. maybe you know? Will Greeks be playable upon initial release?
Its literally a Beast of War interveiw.
-
I'm not sure a scorpion is a skirmish weapon but other that that it sounds good.
-
from the pre-order page on the warlord website:
Imperial Rome
Dacia & Sarmatia
Iberia
Gaul
Caesar’s Legions
Macedonia
Persia
Thebes
Sparta
Athens
these are the armies included in the rule book at release.
-
It'll come with 17 Romans....and 93 Gauls. 1 metal hero in each (I'm assuming the plastics will be a later release). Its either a mistake or those Gauls are trash mobs.
-
Link here http://www.warlordgames.com/spqr-a-clash-of-heroes-starter-set/?utm_source=Warlord+Games+Newsletter&utm_campaign=191992eca5-Warlord_Games_New_Release_Friday_07_June_2019&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_b7e928b4ed-191992eca5-132679373&mc_cid=191992eca5&mc_eid=9b66257cd3
I do hope the rulebook will be available separately. I've no need for another 93 Warlord Gauls...
-
I do hope the rulebook will be available separately. I've no need for another 93 Warlord Gauls...
MartinD. No worries there. The book is being released separately at 320. The figure of the Battlefield Sacrifice is included with it. I agree about all the Gauls. I'm thinking about a couple of the other bands myself.
-
As already mentioned - why such a disparity in numbers between Roman & Gauls.
Are the Romans such superheros under these rules that they can handle odds of over 5:1?
If not - then this is a really poorly thought out starter set. If it does then this is certainly not a game for me.
What happened to he suggestion that warbands would be 20-30 figures?
-
MartinD. No worries there. The book is being released separately at 320. The figure of the Battlefield Sacrifice is included with it. I agree about all the Gauls. I'm thinking about a couple of the other bands myself.
That's good. I noticed that, unlike their recent games like Cruel Seas, there doesn't seem to be any special dice/cards/movement things/general extras in the box but miniatures. Which is unexpected these days.
I'm torn a little because I've decided to do 28mm Carthaginians multibased for ADLG/Hail Caesar, and it'll be a fairly long project, so I'm wondering if it's best to hold off and see what this is like.
I'm wondering too if Balkan Skirmishes with Wallachians, Turks and Vlad Dracula will fit - I'm assuming there will be ambush rules etc.
-
?? Seems fine.. a bit large for a "skirmish" system tho. Rome plus some Gallic allies at around 40 figures and a Gallic force of about 60 models.. what's wrong with that?
-
Disappointed that there's no early Roman/Carthaginian/Italian lists. I'd have thought Punic Wars was a must. Perhaps it's cos Warlord don't do figures for it...
Still, I have a bunch of Caesarian Romans and am planning on getting some Victrix Gauls (waaaayyyy better than the Warlord ones) so I might well be up for getting the rulebook when it comes out and giving it a bash...
-
If either side has 93 models on the table it is no longer a skirmish game.
-
Disappointed that there's no early Roman/Carthaginian/Italian lists. I'd have thought Punic Wars was a must. Perhaps it's cos Warlord don't do figures for it...
Still, I have a bunch of Caesarian Romans and am planning on getting some Victrix Gauls (waaaayyyy better than the Warlord ones) so I might well be up for getting the rulebook when it comes out and giving it a bash...
I'm pretty sure the army list selection reflects only those ranges that Warlord carries. Although it shouldn't be too hard to extrapolate Carthage from the Greek, Iberian and Gallic lists.
-
If either side has 93 models on the table it is no longer a skirmish game.
Yeah I think in some ways these sorts of games are better characterised as 'small unit skirmish' games. I tend to think of 'skirmish games' as those with up to 10 or a dozen figs per side and being very 'individual model' focused...
Still, Warlord do some decent stuff so I'm gonna give it a look and preorder the rulebook.
-
I'm sure they'll manage to shoe-horn the wake markers from Cruel Seas into it somehow...
-
Sounds interesting.
But, why so few Romans and so many Gauls?
-
I was kind of interested, but yeah, 93 Gauls suggests this game is going beyond the scope of what I'd be interested in.
Too bad, as I would like an ancient skirmish game and none of the new or upcoming rules I've seen look quite like what I'm after.
-
Weird thought but could the Gauls be 2/3 to a base ? This way it's 18 bases versus 18 bases.
-
Why is WLG so awful about marketing their upcoming releases?
-
Weird thought but could the Gauls be 2/3 to a base ? This way it's 18 bases versus 18 bases.
Could be, but it's still 93 guys vs 17 guys. Between those numbers and the multi-basing, it's not much of a skirmish game at that point, and furthermore in an ancients skirmish game I wouldn't want Romans to have that kind of edge over barbarians. Better kit, maybe more experience/training, but nothing like a 5:1 advantage.
(By my math 92 Gauls [presumably the chieftain is solo] based in 3s would be 30 bases. 18 bases would be 5 to a base, but either way...)
-
I spotted a post where someone suggested that some of the gauls might be mercenaries fighting alongside the Romans...if that is the case then they need to make it clear on their marketing.
-
I spotted a post where someone suggested that some of the gauls might be mercenaries fighting alongside the Romans...if that is the case then they need to make it clear on their marketing.
Its frustrating how bad Warlord is at marketing. I know people sometimes think of them as " The GW of Historicals" but their nowhere near their level of marketing skill atm.
This is the second or third time they've released a game with no official discussion and expect us to buy it and stores to stock it. I get they dont want to overshadow D-Day but then that suggests maybe market it AROUND the time ?
-
There are lots of Gauls in the box and less Romans.
Given that Caesar used Gallic allies and the Gauls have perhaps got a "wider range" of troop types (for example possibly slingers, warband, cavalry, chariots) compared to Legionary foot and cavalry it's possible that the ratio of Gauls to Romans is there just to give flexibility. We'll have to wait n see.
Anyway, since the rule book is available separately I think I'll take a lookie at that first before making up my mind.
-
But then that's kinda the point...a couple of sentences and we'd know exactly what Warlord has in mind for the forces, heck even a pic of two sample warbands would give us an idea.
-
But then that's kinda the point...a couple of sentences and we'd know exactly what Warlord has in mind for the forces, heck even a pic of two sample warbands would give us an idea.
According their Facebook page:
"SPQR is a brand new skirmish game! The starter set contains a new rulebook, 40 Gallic Celts & Celts Command, 12 Celtic Archers, 8 Caesarian Romans with Gladius, 8 Caesarian romans with Pilum, a Roman Commander on foot, a Special Battlefield Sacrifice Miniature and more for just £40/$60!"
-
We just have to wait and see - I'll agree though that their marketing of this product seems somewhat lacking . . I mean, if it were just miniatures, say "New Legionnaires minis soon released!" and they just shared images, that would be one thing - but a game with no details on game play..
Maybe it's just Hail Caesar skirmish mode, haha.
-
Some strange things are happening with the marketing and information of this particular game. I'm almost sure that the boxed set was announced with the following content: SPQR Contains: Softback rulebook, Easy start booklet, A Roman commander on foot, 8 Caesarian Romans with gladius, 8 Caesarian Romans with Pilum, Caesarian Romans shields decal sheet, A Celtic commander on foot, 80 Gallic Celts & Celts command, 12 Celtic Archers, Celtic Warriors shields decal sheet, Bases and D6. Order yours today and get a free special edition Miniature "Blood Sacrifice"
Now according to an updated pre-order page the amount of plastic celts isn't 80 but only 40. Also thought that the set was first up for pre-order at £50 and it's now only £40, not entirely sure on the pricing but really thought it was previously £50? Can somebody recall the higher pricing along with a change in the number of miniatures included?
-
It was previously listed as £60/$80.
-
I'm surprised at Warlord doing yet another bloody game, so far they have...
Hail Caesar
Pike and Shot
Black Seas (or whatever its called)
Black Powder
Bolt Action
Cruel Seas
Blood Red Skies
K47
Dr Who
Strontium Dog
Judge Dredd (announced, not out yet mind)
Gates of Antares
Warlords of Erewhon
Thats ignoring things they sort of carry but aren't really theres or arent theres any longer, like Test of Honor, Terminator, and Frostgrave.
I think the pace of releases is beginning to show though - look at the editing issues with the Warlords of Erehwon book, or how Antares is basically abandoned.
-
I think the pace of releases is beginning to show though - look at the editing issues with the Warlords of Erehwon book, or how Antares is basically abandoned.
Theres a strong suspicion that Dredd will just use the Strontium Dog ruleset, whilst Antares gets releases. Afaik the issue with antares id that they need to revamp it from the ground up and can't just stop because they spent a decent amount of money on plastic kits.
However K47 and Erewhon are different kettles of fish. Erewhon is a minimal effort release, just box up sprues they have and print a book. K47 is mostly Clockwork Goblin sculpting afaik.
-
Afaik the issue with antares id that they need to revamp it from the ground up and can't just stop because they spent a decent amount of money on plastic kits.
I'm sure I read an interview with Rick where he said the game had grown bigger than his original aim and bigger than Warlord had expected. I wonder if part of the problem is that many gamers seem to expect an aggressive release schedule to rival GW. Out of interest what is the reason behind Antares needing a big overhaul...I've not played but it seemed solid enough.
-
I'm sure I read an interview with Rick where he said the game had grown bigger than his original aim and bigger than Warlord had expected. I wonder if part of the problem is that many gamers seem to expect an aggressive release schedule to rival GW. Out of interest what is the reason behind Antares needing a big overhaul...I've not played but it seemed solid enough.
Rules are too complex for what the mass audience want. If you want an agressive 40k rival you need to make the game quicker. As is its full of needless mechanics and stuff that looks good from a narrative perspective but is a bit meh in game.
-
For me, it's only marketing, if you list only nations you have in your ranges o_o
To close of GW business way , indeed ;)
Or a marketing plan for a future light version of "Hail Caesar" rules set.
Create a rule or a new level of game to sell your "old" figurine ranges ?
:?
-
Create a rule or a new level of game to sell your "old" figurine ranges ?
Warlord is a business and as such its goal is to sell as many models as it can. If what the consumers demand is skirmish games, it makes sense to take advantage of what the market wants and marketing both the rules and the miniatures together. Specially, given the fact that Warlord is a miniatures company!
-
Fair point...its just a shame their marketing is a bit naff. Its surprising they haven't released an unboxing or something...if they didn't want to do it themselves they could send out a couple of sets to YouTubers or something.
-
To be fair however, this game is meant for release late next month. Their working on Battle reports etc at the moment. We're just being a tad over enthusiastic. Now if nothing turns up a week from release, yeah then we can get really irate.
-
Warlord is a business and as such its goal is to sell as many models as it can. If what the consumers demand is skirmish games, it makes sense to take advantage of what the market wants and marketing both the rules and the miniatures together. Specially, given the fact that Warlord is a miniatures company!
i understand that buy but if the means aren't involved to do it...........Make new with old stuff then ;)
but we need to wait the release to see what it is ???
-
I find it a bit confusing that there is such a disparity in the numbers of Celts and Romans: it seems that the Romans should be very strong in the game, much stronger than theor Celt counterparts. But all the ancient historians, especially the Roman ones, agree that man for man Romans were not a match for the Celts: for this reason they almost never accepted the fight between champions that was often offered before/in lieu of the battle. If I remember correctly only one or two instances of a roman actually beating a Celt in single combat are recorded, and they are specifically mentioned as exceptional feats, to the point that the winner of one (I am not sure about the second) acquired his name of Manlius Torquatus exactly for this, having acquired the torque of the defeated Celt.
The strenght of the Romans was in their organization, fighting in formation and uniting their strenght and training rather than in the individual strenght of the single fighter, like it was for the Celts. So I guess that either this is going to be not much of a skirmish, rather a low unit count battle like a mini Hail Caesar, or the game is going to have about the same approach to actual history as Bolt Action, ie fairly off the mark
-
I was mildly interested, but Warlord lost me once more as soon as I saw the number of minis involved…
;)
-
what's the issue with the number of miniatures, 150 or so figures on the table is hardly a mass battle?
I have been playing Mortal Gods recently and I think its more fun to double or triple the size of what they recommend as a standard size force.
-
I guess its all down to personal taste...some people like a handful of minis in a skirmish while others like 10 or 20. For my part this game sounds more like a Warband level skirmish than what is generally considered a skirmish by most gamers. Each to their own.
-
what's the issue with the number, 150 or so figures on the table is hardly a mass battle?
I have been playing Mortal Gods recently and I think its more fun to double or triple the size of what they recommend as a standard size force.
Indeed personal taste, I like skirmish games up to a max # of 30 minis...
-
SOME OF THE CELTS\GAULS WILL BE ALLIED TO THE ROMANS.. damn why is this so hard to grasp? Now whether 40 or so models per side is a "skirmish" or not, is entirely a different issue. Is SAGA a "skirmish"? Is Test of Honor a "skirmish"? I know they are not "battles".. pip pip cheerio
-
So far I am on the fence with this game. There is not enough information to make up my mind. What is its "selling point"? Why should I chose SPQR instead other sets of Skirmish rules? I don't know. Maybe I will order it once it is published and the first AARs appear, but at the present I have not a sound reason to spend 20 GBPs in the book.
-
Following with interest myself as I've always liked ancients but been put off by the mini count, agree about warlord games, too many games and not enough support for cores, loads of bolt action units still without minis for starters...and all they do is keep releasing more damn planes/ships for blood red skies/cruel seas.
-
SOME OF THE CELTS\GAULS WILL BE ALLIED TO THE ROMANS.. damn why is this so hard to grasp? Now whether 40 or so models per side is a "skirmish" or not, is entirely a different issue. Is SAGA a "skirmish"? Is Test of Honor a "skirmish"? I know they are not "battles".. pip pip cheerio
Have Warlord confirmed this ?
Following with interest myself as I've always liked ancients but been put off by the mini count, agree about warlord games, too many games and not enough support for cores, loads of bolt action units still without minis for starters...and all they do is keep releasing more damn planes/ships for blood red skies/cruel seas.
With all due respect if your just buying from Warlord your not exactly being imaginative. Unlike GW Warlord couldn't care less if you use another companies models (I mean sure, be nice if you DID buy from them but a Sherman is a Sherman is a Sherman) wheras the Planes/Ships are harder to find.
-
Double post
-
Warlord put out this in their email, new druid, chief and mounted chief it seems.
I like the buff chief, the druid looks a bit too 'stereotypical' methinks though.
-
The difference between SPQR and other rules seems to be the campaign "progression" mechanics. Its not so common in historical rules but it's been used to great effect in Necromunda, Mordheim, Bloodbowl, etc etc. Which is really the only reason Im interested in the game at all.
-
Woops, forgot pic.
-
I quite the heroic style of those sculpts- I wonder who did them?
-
Just realised the title of this thread is a bit misleading as Warlord don't refer to SPQR as a skirmish game but rather "WARBANDS IN THE ANCIENT WORLD
Take command of your warband and lead it to glory and legend!".
They have updated the Pre-Order page with pics of the two Heros as well as a group shot of everything in the box.
http://www.warlordgames.com/spqr-a-clash-of-heroes-starter-set/?utm_source=Warlord+Games+Newsletter&utm_campaign=191992eca5-Warlord_Games_New_Release_Friday_07_June_2019&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_b7e928b4ed-191992eca5-132679373&mc_cid=191992eca5&mc_eid=9b66257cd3
-
Just realised the title of this thread is a bit misleading as Warlord don't refer to SPQR as a skirmish game but rather "WARBANDS IN THE ANCIENT WORLD
Take command of your warband and lead it to glory and legend!".
They have updated the Pre-Order page with pics of the two Heros as well as a group shot of everything in the box.
http://www.warlordgames.com/spqr-a-clash-of-heroes-starter-set/?utm_source=Warlord+Games+Newsletter&utm_campaign=191992eca5-Warlord_Games_New_Release_Friday_07_June_2019&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_b7e928b4ed-191992eca5-132679373&mc_cid=191992eca5&mc_eid=9b66257cd3
The initial information released was that it was a skirmish game, as was the initial interview at UKGE which indicated 30 models max (which your hordey factions can get to in slirmish). I'm more then happy to change the title though.
-
Ahh ok. A change of title might be an idea but then I expect most people interested in the game know by now.
-
More info
Banners and musicians have points costs so they can do....something.
Heroes in the starter set will be resin
The Romans are elite infantry so the 17 vs 50 thing was intentional though you CAN use the Gauls as Mercs.
Elephants WILL be usable.
More factions if the game takes off.
-
More info.
On the SPQR Facebook group the official Warlord Account posted this....
Well - seeing as I've been putting off building yet another army, this weekend I succumbed to the call of the Roman Legions... the Marines anyway :)
I've put together my 500 point (Denarii) SPQR Warband list Legio Prima Adiutrix.
Once I find a suitable model it'll be commanded by Gabara the Giant (Apparently a 9'9"tall Arabian giant!), for now tho I'm using one of Warlords Optio's as my Pilus Prior.
My heroes are based on 30mm MDF discs to make them stand out from the average 25mm base. My Scorpio is on a triangular base from Sarissa Precision.
First Century, Second Cohort, Legio Prima Adiutrix
Pilus Prior, Centurion Atergo Potentes Drusus - 82 Denarii.
Large shield, lorica hamata, sword, short spear
Talents - Wall of Iron, Blademaster
Evocatus, Servius Minatus Marinus - 85 Denarii.
Large shield, Lorica Segmentata, sword.
Talents - Shield Bash, Shield Wall
Immunes, Nonus Vettius - 75 Denarii.
lorica hamata, sword
Talents - Voice of Command, Inspire
Contubernium (Rear Principes) - Auxiliary Archer - 88 Denarii.
Decanus Aetius + 7 men with Bow, lorica hamata, swords
Contubernium (Forward Triarii) - Auxiliary - 80 Denarii.
Decanus Aemilius + 7 men with lorica hamata, large shield, sword & short spears
Scorpio Team - 80 Denarii.
Warband Total Cost; 490 Denarii. (leaves 10 Denarii in the bank for later)
I'll report back once I get a bit more paint on them and totally reserve my right to change my choices of equipment once I get the rule book :)
Cheers RichC
From this you can get a vague idea of how things are designed.
-
The Rule Book and the Druid figure are available as a separate item
https://us-store.warlordgames.com/products/spqr-rulebook-and-special-edition-miniature (https://us-store.warlordgames.com/products/spqr-rulebook-and-special-edition-miniature)
-
And another army list from the FB Group.
So I've finished putting the finishing touches to my Iberian warband. Hopefully I'll be able to put them up against RichC's marines sometime soon! ;)
These are all Warlord Games Iberians, plus plastic Celt bits, Celtic casualties, British warhounds, the wolf from the Roger's Rangers box set plus other stuff from my bits box.
I've chosen to recreate the military arm of a Celtiberian tribe hailing from the heart of the Iberian peninsula. They're led by Balcaldur, a reclusive warrior convinced that he's the mortal avatar of Cernunnos, god of the underworld. Wielding a pattern-welded sword forged from meteoric iron, he leads his band of tribesmen out to carve up the invading Romans.
The List:
Balcaldur, the Sword of the Underworld (Level 2 Hero) 89 Denarii
Equipment: Two-handed Sword, Dagger, Helmet
Talents: Wall of Iron, Lethal Blade, Blademaster
Naravas, the White Wolf (Level 1 Hero) 86 Denarii
Equipment: Short Spear, Large Shield, 3x Javelins, Horse
Talents: Buckle the Line, Horsemanship
Scutati Band (10 Infantry Minions) 120 Denarii
Equipment: Short Spears, Javelin, Large Shields, Helmets, Horn
Special Rules: Flaming Javelins, Strength in Numbers
Caetrati Band (5 Infantry Minions) 35 Denarii
Equipment: Javelins, Swords, Bucklers
Special Rules: Flaming Javelins, Hit and Run
Iberian Cavalry Band (5 Cavalry Minions) 165 Denarii
Equipment: Short Spears, 2x Javelins, Small Shields, Horses
Special Rules: Hit and Run
All of this comes to 495 points, which leaves me with 5 points in the bank for future purchases!
-
Huh, those are pretty modest warbands compared to the number of Gauls in the starter (even if some are Roman allies). Guess I'm just going to have to wait for better info.
-
I'd like to see some pics of warbands to get a good feel for them.
-
I'd like to see some pics of warbands to get a good feel for them.
These are the two quoted forces.
-
Thanks jetengine :D
The scorpion seems a bit out of place in such a small force.
-
The scorpion seems a bit out of place in such a small force.
Not if (like Warlord) your aim is to sell miniatures!! ;) 8)
-
Thanks jetengine :D
The scorpion seems a bit out of place in such a small force.
...How else are you going to kill the elephant?
-
:D
-
Not sure if I like this new turn towards resin for the heroes (warlord had tested resin 95th rifles at the waterloo great game for sale).
Might get myself the rulebook, at the very least the sacrifice mini would be useful and the rules seem adaptable.
Just got this in my email, seems buff gaul is a character, i'm hoping we see new sculpts to fill out command, also the old gaul kit is looking decidedly dated.
I'm wondering if these hero box sets are like the support box sets for bolt action? Have all the guys in one set for easier purchase/storage?
-
Not sure if I like this new turn towards resin for the heroes (warlord had tested resin 95th rifles at the waterloo great game for sale).
Might get myself the rulebook, at the very least the sacrifice mini would be useful and the rules seem adaptable.
Just got this in my email, seems buff gaul is a character, i'm hoping we see new sculpts to fill out command, also the old gaul kit is looking decidedly dated.
I'm wondering if these hero box sets are like the support box sets for bolt action? Have all the guys in one set for easier purchase/storage?
I think they are all in a single box
-
if there is such a box, that could be a purchase I am interested in
-
A play through video should be uploadef today at 1pm UK time.
Wayland games also have the first "Wave" uploaded on their site.
https://www.waylandgames.co.uk/5558-spqr
The heroes are indeed 4 to a box and a really good price
Also interestingly, the formerly metal Hail Ceasar units are reboxed here in Resin.
-
A play through video would be cool, I shall keep an eye out for it, ta.
-
Not a play through video - just a new advert with some details of game play.
I didn't find it particularly inspiring - game play looks a bit dull compared to current skirmish games such as Mortal Gods, ToH2 and Saga IMO. :(
-
Looking forward to it after the preview, but put off by the resin minis, I hope to christ this isn't one of warlords new things.
-
Yeah, all the video really highlights is that the core mechanics of the game are pretty conventional - units get two actions, attacking is a d6+skill with a target number to hit.
I would like to have heard a bit more about character growth, since they seem to be making that a selling point, and typical warband size/composition.
-
Sounds OK. I'd like to see a play through though.
-
Its not rocking my world :?
-
I think I will stick to Clash of Spears, for skirmish games. Maybe I will buy the priest sacrificing the goat, if it becomes available separately. If the campaign system looks interesting, perhaps I will buy it when Warlord publish the rules in PDF format, to adapt it to other games.
-
I like the celtic warriors minis, they have that old school vibe. Other than that.... Im not too fond of Warlord in general
-
Well like all historical games I suspect its miniature agnostic.
-
What the heck is up at WLG? First, previewing the new Judge Dredd miniatures game at at the comic convention in early June and refusing to post pics or otherwise fill in customers and now this clunky, awkward launch for SPQR. I don’t have a single reason to feel excited about this game and WLG seems not very bothered about making a case for it.
-
See someone raised an interesting point to me
This game isnt due out for another month, yet we're demanding info now. Meanwhile GW can hold back a release within 2 weeks and it'll sell like hotcakes.
-
For all the comparisons to GW, I feel WG is acting very similarly to them actually. Like the plethora of games GW has released over the past 5 years, most are not meant to be "the next big thing". It's a modest investment that get people excited to start a new collection or two (easily done for games requiring a few dozen models at most), a way for the company to generate interest in some older sculpts and create a little game that will see some play for a few months, before something else comes along. Just like GW's Shadow War or Kill Team, it caters specifically to warbands easily available from them, unlike say Hail Caesar which covers anything you expect to be covered for that timeframe. It's not meant to be earth-shattering, revolutionary, innovative and indeed well-supported. Just something that's probably fun enough to spend a few quid on, and a small enough investment for them to easily make the money back through direct sales and increased interest in their various miniatures.
-
I'm mixed on warlord, like their sculpts and customer service/friendly interaction, not so fussed on this whole new approach of just throwing games out until one sticks, with the new Napoleonic ship game coming out I can foresee endless churning out of digitally sculpted ships and planes...and it bores me.
And now they are switching to resin possibly and trying out a range of stores in N. America...getting more like GW by the day.
-
Not sure if I like this new turn towards resin for the heroes (warlord had tested resin 95th rifles at the waterloo great game for sale).
Might get myself the rulebook, at the very least the sacrifice mini would be useful and the rules seem adaptable.
Just got this in my email, seems buff gaul is a character, i'm hoping we see new sculpts to fill out command, also the old gaul kit is looking decidedly dated.
I'm wondering if these hero box sets are like the support box sets for bolt action? Have all the guys in one set for easier purchase/storage?
Hmm. That druid is missing a cauldron, some magic potions and a pint-sized Gaul to drink them.
-
Hmm. That druid is missing a cauldron, some magic potions and a pint-sized Gaul to drink them.
And the furious warrior is missing some paperwork for an A38 permit lol
-
And now they are switching to resin possibly and trying out a range of stores in N. America...getting more like GW by the day.
Dont you just hate it when a buisness tries to be successful?
-
Dont you just hate it when a buisness tries to be successful?
Have to agree with jetengine, the game is not yet out, the miniatures are just up for pre-order, and beside few reasoned comments, all seems blank criticism. Now... I can start a rant on how negative the community is... or simply relax and realize that we are called grognards for some reason! :D
-
See someone raised an interesting point to me
This game isnt due out for another month, yet we're demanding info now. Meanwhile GW can hold back a release within 2 weeks and it'll sell like hotcakes.
GW caters to a captive market, who will buy its games regardless the contents (I know quite a few people that doesn't care for the game, but the minis can be used in other GW games and bought individually would be more expensive than with the contents of the box, therefore they buy the game!).
Warlord must compete within a niche market, where it is competing with at least three other rulesets (OGAM, Men of Bronze and Mortal Gods) plus the adaptations to Ancients of other popular skirmish games set in different periods, but that can be used for Ancients with a small effort.
Thing is that so far we don't know what is the big deal with Warlord's rules. They must convince us to spend our money in their product. What do they offer that their competitors don't? How long have been developing the game? Who have been the playtesters? Show us an AAR in a nice tabletop and hype us. In short: do what GW does and sell your product as if it is the Second Coming and you can't be happy if you don't own a copy!
-
GW caters to a captive market, who will buy its games regardless the contents (I know quite a few people that doesn't care for the game, but the minis can be used in other GW games and bought individually would be more expensive than with the contents of the box, therefore they buy the game!).
Warlord must compete within a niche market, where it is competing with at least three other rulesets (OGAM, Men of Bronze and Mortal Gods) plus the adaptations to Ancients of other popular skirmish games set in different periods, but that can be used for Ancients with a small effort.
Thing is that so far we don't know what is the big deal with Warlord's rules. They must convince us to spend our money in their product. What do they offer that their competitors don't? How long have been developing the game? Who have been the playtesters? Show us an AAR in a nice tabletop and hype us. In short: do what GW does and sell your product as if it is the Second Coming and you can't be happy if you don't own a copy!
Again, their getting there. You've still got just under a month for them to get the hype going. As for the contents its 70 models for £40 which works out roughly £59 so nearly £20 saving AND you get all the scenarios you can mine from the rulebook if you dont like the rules.
-
Again, their getting there. You've still got just under a month for them to get the hype going. As for the contents its 70 models for £40 which works out roughly £59 so nearly £20 saving AND you get all the scenarios you can mine from the rulebook if you dont like the rules.
I got that much, but... Look, the chaps at Footsore started wetting the apettite of their customer's base almost 2 months before the game was actually released. They showed us greens from the sculpts of the minis that would go with the game; told us about mechanics; showed cards, tokens and, in general, showed being enthusiastic about their game. Bottom line: Mortal Gods basic sets sold out in less than a week after release.
The feeling we are getting from Warlord is... dunno... subdued? Mind that I am what you can call a regular customer for Warlord. I own several of their games and buy his minis with some regularity. I have nothing against them. It's just the vibe, for the lack of a better word.
-
I got that much, but... Look, the chaps at Footsore started wetting the apettite of their customer's base almost 2 months before the game was actually released. They showed us greens from the sculpts of the minis that would go with the game; told us about mechanics; showed cards, tokens and, in general, showed being enthusiastic about their game. Bottom line: Mortal Gods basic sets sold out in less than a week after release.
.....
Yeah, Footsore is really good at that. So you can figure how big my dissapointment was after two games of Gangs of Rome.
I'm still not over it
-
Yeah, Footsore is really good at that. So you can figure how big my dissapointment was after two games of Gangs of Rome.
I'm still not over it
Agreed. My son and I are looking to adapt Mordheim rules.
-
You guys seem to be referencing the GW of nearly a decade ago. GW today is extremely good at marketing its products and gradually revealing info months before release.
WLG by contrast is almost customer hostile. Take the new Judge Dredd minis - when I asked them why the didnt post preview pics, the response was “this preview is only for con attendees” ... I mean WTF that makes no sense and is just irritating.
-
You guys seem to be referencing the GW of nearly a decade ago. GW today is extremely good at marketing its products and gradually revealing info months before release.
WLG by contrast is almost customer hostile. Take the new Judge Dredd minis - when I asked them why the didnt post preview pics, the response was “this preview is only for con attendees” ... I mean WTF that makes no sense and is just irritating.
You say it makes no sense when they literally explained it to you. Not every company is cool with immediately disclosing stuff, it also adds an air of exclusivity to the event. I mean lets say they put them online. Then what ? Their clearly not ready for release. They might not be for a while if Warlord have a release schedule. This may very well be a way to say "Yeah we haven't forgotten about 2000AD". Either way you'll have people getting irritated waiting for them.
Could their marketing be better ? Sure. But alot of this negativity is unnecessary.
-
> items not ready for release
> show them at convention attended by over 100,000 people
guy on the internet: “they literally explained it to you”
-
> items not ready for release
> show them at convention attended by over 100,000 people
guy on the internet: “they literally explained it to you”
They show videogame demos not ready for release to the same number.of people. Either way I'm not a warlord guy, I'm just trying to give reasons as to their marketing scheme
-
You guys seem to be referencing the GW of nearly a decade ago. GW today is extremely good at marketing its products and gradually revealing info months before release.
That's what everybody here was saying :D :D ;) ;) ;)
-
one of the funny results of this thread... I got interested in the game, and basically improved my opinion of warlord... lol bring the pop corn.
-
Dont you just hate it when a buisness tries to be successful?
I ave no problem with them trying to make money but as they have proven in the past, doing many different things at once is not and never will be their strong suite, the world does not need another GW.
-
I bit.. 2 free miniatures and free shipping couldnt say no. Just got the book to give it a run with my Mortal Gods greeks.
-
I bit.. 2 free miniatures and free shipping couldnt say no. Just got the book to give it a run with my Mortal Gods greeks.
any comments so far?
-
Its not out yet.
I think I have to get it now, two free minis...is two free minis after all.
-
I seriously want that mini of the sacrifice....
-
The feeling we are getting from Warlord is... dunno... subdued? Mind that I am what you can call a regular customer for Warlord. I own several of their games and buy his minis with some regularity. I have nothing against them. It's just the vibe, for the lack of a better word.
It's a box set containing a load of plastic sprues they have had out in the market for what must be the thick end of a decade already, with 2 new resin sculpts and a new set of fairly straightforward sounding skirmish rules added in - all of which they've announced a month out from release. The future support schedule they have announced is based around extending the rules to allow you to use different sprues they already have been producing for some years, so there's actually not all that much meat for a marketeer to get their teeth into here.
Honestly, I'm not sure what level of additional hype it would be possible for Warlord, GW, or even PT Barnum himself to generate (without going down the "Contrast Paints" route...!) Even so its being widely talked about on this and other forums anyway - so their marketeer seems to be doing a decent job !
-
It's a box set containing a load of plastic sprues they have had out in the market for what must be the thick end of a decade already, with 2 new resin sculpts and a new set of fairly straightforward sounding skirmish rules added in - all of which they've announced a month out from release. The future support schedule they have announced is based around extending the rules to allow you to use different sprues they already have been producing for some years, so there's actually not all that much meat for a marketeer to get their teeth into here.
Speaking as a marketer, that just makes it even more depressing that their product development department is producing such unmarketable products.
-
Honestly, I'm not sure what level of additional hype it would be possible for Warlord, GW, or even PT Barnum himself to generate (without going down the "Contrast Paints" route...!)
Well, it seems like one selling point of the game is going to be heroic progression, and the first video is pretty vague on how heroes will stand apart from minions. An article or video highlighting heroes on the table seems like a logical next step, to me.
Aside from that, a basic rundown of the factions in the first book, or a brief faction focus article on each, would also probably be well-received.
For my part it's really not the marketing that's disappointing, though. I was hoping for smaller scale skirmishes (which is not Warlord's fault), but I'm trying to stay open-minded and will be checking out reviews once it lands.
-
Im trying to remain positive, i;d hoped for smaller mini numbers but this seems to be okay, they really need to update their ancients as to be quite frank some of their older plastic kits especially are long overdue for retirement.
marketing wise what they need is more of what they have shown on the facebook, converted sample forces to show off the rules and the minis as some of the paint jobs on the online store are looking quite aged as well.
-
Im trying to remain positive, i;d hoped for smaller mini numbers but this seems to be okay, they really need to update their ancients as to be quite frank some of their older plastic kits especially are long overdue for retirement.
marketing wise what they need is more of what they have shown on the facebook, converted sample forces to show off the rules and the minis as some of the paint jobs on the online store are looking quite aged as well.
The Facebook stuff is on their website and has been several days before you made this post.
-
I know that, it actually appeared on the facebook page first iirc.
-
Well speak of the devil.
SPQR A Hero's Journey (http://www.warlordgames.com/spqr-a-heros-journey/)
-
The hero progression looks interesting. The talent trees I have seen for RPGs but not in wargames, although I guess this is a bit of a hybrid game.
-
Yeah I kinda like that move. GW's 40k skirmish game, Kill Team, appears to use talent trees, and their Middle-Earth game uses something kind of similar. I'm not sure if/what other games have used them, although I wouldn't be surprised.
-
This kind of trait tree is an interesting mechanic. Im not sold at the game but this is a nice touch that would work very nicely in an age of bronze or archaic age setting.
-
I already have a bunch of Celts, Ancient Germans, and Dacians for a low-fantasy side project, but not enough for a proper game of Hail Caesar, so this is probably worth my picking up at some point. And the RPGish elements might help get my friends interested...
-
Just watched the play through video.
https://www.beastsofwar.com/forums/topic/shock-and-horror-a-spqr-demo/
So Romans get shield wall - yep, get that.
But a unit of 12 Romans can also form Tseudo (in a skirmish game!!!) which not only benefits armour saves but at the same time has no penalty on fighting ability.
Really.......???? lol lol lol
Whilst I appreciate it was a demo games it appeared to be a "buckets of dice" game which did not impress me. The Gauls attacks with one ten man unit went:
Roll attack dice (at one point x 30)
Reroll misses due to Druid
Reroll all hits due to Parry
Defender rolls armour saves
Just too much die rolling for me! :o
-
Just watched the play through video.
https://www.beastsofwar.com/forums/topic/shock-and-horror-a-spqr-demo/
So Romans get shield wall - yep, get that.
But a unit of 12 Romans can also form Tseudo (in a skirmish game!!!) which not only benefits armour saves but at the same time has no penalty on fighting ability.
Really.......???? lol lol lol
Whilst I appreciate it was a demo games it appeared to be a "buckets of dice" game which did not impress me. The Gauls attacks with one ten man unit went:
Roll attack dice (at one point x 30)
Reroll misses due to Druid
Reroll all hits due to Parry
Defender rolls armour saves
Just too much die rolling for me! :o
Yeah I just saw that! 10 celts charge and roll 30 dice.... Then re-roll misses because of their druid.... Then have to roll again because of the Romans' parry rule..... Then the romans roll to save!!!
-
Hmm...doesn't sound like my kinda thing. I tried watching the video but the sound delay put me right off to be honest.
-
Hi guys!
What to Say about this?
http://www.warlordgames.com/collecting-spqr-darrens-macedonians/
I was afraid It might happen... A macedonian phalanx in a skirmish, or warband if you prefer, situation. The macedonian general should be a fool. At the best would be completely useless, but probably a disaster in the real world.
Totally Unreal...
Davide
-
beside having some literary evidence of small heavy infantry detachment in Hellenistic times (and with various degree of success), considering the fact that warband scale is a quite ambiguous term, I do not see anything 'totally unreal', especially not even knowing if such a phalanx based formation would really be effective in the game.
Criticizing games without even reading the rules, not even mention playing...
-
Hi Arrigo. It's not a matter of rules... A small detachement of pezetairoi armed with sarissae Simply don't work in the real world....
Phalanxes were effective (actually very effective) only frontally in Mass battles and with flanks and rear well defended
-
But what a warband scale is? Dozens of men? Hundreds? A couple of thousands?
Well I argue that 50 pezetairoi with sarissa would be ineffective and ridiculous in real life. But I got the impression that SPQR is taking a relaxed approach to scale, with leaders and heroes being 1 to 1 and the rest more vague. It was an approach that even Richard Clarke suggested in the first edition of Sharpe Practice. It is nowadays a common approach in several rules. Of course, being a stickler for force to space ratios this makes my nose twitching...But on the other side, considering scale limitations, money, and storage constraints, it si probably the only way to play in 28mm with some satisfaction and varied forces. It need to adapt... and accept abstractions.
As the Macedonian force, I got the impression that will be a bit sticky on the front, and if you do not have flankers it could be a easily ambushed. But well it looks nice in the pictures.
of course this is an empty talk until we get the rules in our hands.
-
This is literally why the myth of "Historical gamers are no fun rivet counters" exist.
This is not a historical re-enactment game, no Warlord game is. Its Hollywood History occasionally allowing you to tailor your stuff to be more accurate if you wish.
-
I've played enough Rome:Total War to know that a few dozen phalangites are all you need to defend an entire city. Narrow street, rows of pikes, and after a few minutes, all that's left of the enemy are a pile of bodies piled up in front of your completely unscathed soldiers.
-
It seems that Warlord tries to unload all of these old plastics. They saw what Footsore and Victrix did with Mortal Gods. The difference is that Footsore Had a game and needed minis. Warlord has minis and needs a game.
-
well,
after having read the review of Mortal Gods in the latest WSS I ended up unimpressed. One could even say 'It seems that Warlord's name attract plenty of negative people in forums...'
This is literally why the myth of "Historical gamers are no fun rivet counters" exist. This is not a historical re-enactment game, no Warlord game is. Its Hollywood History occasionally allowing you to tailor your stuff to be more accurate if you wish.
This is something that always puzzles me. It appears that you can only have the two extremes of the spectrum. One could even snap and say that re-enactement and wargaming are two different things. Or even worse... this is really why the myth 'Historical wargames are useless twat that just play with toy soldiers' exist.
Are Warlord games on the lighter side of the spectrum, yes. Are they just hollywood history, well, Bolt Action was decided to be that, and both Priestley and Cavatore were positive on that. Black Powder and Hail Caesar are a bit more nuanced. It must also be said that as much Bolt Action caters to Hollywood it also caters to a lot of preconceived notions held by wargamers. It is also warranted to highlight, once again, that according to Kevin Zucker usually a designer can concentrate only on one aspect of a topic in detail. Thus in the end the perceived realism of a game will usually depends on how players perceive the designer's focus. By extension the whole appreciation of a game will depend on how it satisfies particular needs from the players themselves. Little example, one of my favorite game systems, all eras, is Jim Day's Panzer/MBT. It is extremely detailed. On the other hand I am touching ASL even with a pole or a sarissa. I think the latter is detailed, but massively inaccurate. Other people are the opposite. We can discuss for ages and both extremes are wrong.
What D. Brownie says was perfectly sensible, even people not obsessed by rivets are expecting plausible results in a game. His surprise at seeing a fully arrayed phalanx was perfectly understandable, and not just a rivet counting outburst.
It is also worth to note (again) that we are discussing a game that we know very little about, because it has not yet been released. Let's wait when we have it on our hands before butcher it and each other...
I have pre-ordered it. 8) Now, people who knows me knows I am quite on the heavy end of the wargaming spectrum, so why? I am intrigued about a lighter game that allows me to deploy reasonable 28mm forces that do not kill my wallet and my shelves. Plus, let's be frank... I cannot really found interesting to paint more than 30-40 chaps of the same army in 28mm, before they just become mass. Anyway I already consider the majority of miniature games the lighter spectrum of my wargaming hobby. Looking forward to see SPQR. If it is a bummer... okay I have bought and even played several bummers in my life...
-
As primarily a Historic Euro gamer who plays some war games I have no problem with intelligently designed abstractions as long as it results in an improved player experience. Castles of Burgundy and London (1st Ed.) are excellent examples of this principle. SPQR's smaller model counts and campaigns with Hero progression sounds good to me.
At the end of the day war games need to have an option for smaller footprint formats and include other contemporary game design features or whither. The Roman Empire of miniature gaming, Games Workshop understands the need for scaling. They may be terrible at game design but they are great at making money so their decisions are worth looking at from a business perspective. Hail Caesar is probably sputtering under it's own weight of too much 28mm plastic so let SPQR serve as an accessible gateway.
I have placed my order for the rulebook and am on my way to building a dual use Alexander/Successor force. Knowing the general lack of interest in my area for big army historical, and a general stigma associated with square bases and movement trays I am making the ultimate sacrifice... round bases to really make it look more familiar. Rebasing at some point is always an option.
-
SPQR is taking a relaxed approach to scale
lol
If the players are that relaxed how will they get the strength to roll all those dice?! ;D
-
Yeah I just saw that! 10 celts charge and roll 30 dice.... Then re-roll misses because of their druid.... Then have to roll again because of the Romans' parry rule..... Then the romans roll to save!!!
alea iacta est
alea iacta est
alea iacta est
alea iacta est
alea iacta est
alea iacta est
alea iacta est
alea iacta est
alea iacta est
alea iacta est
alea iacta est
alea iacta est
alea iacta est
alea iacta est
alea iacta est
alea iacta est
alea iacta est
alea iacta est
alea iacta est
alea iacta est
alea iacta est
alea iacta est
alea iacta est
alea iacta est
alea iacta est
alea iacta est
alea iacta est
alea iacta est
alea iacta est
alea iacta est
-
Realistically GW/Warlord/Etc are realising that people in this day and age (and possibly in the future depebding on economics etc) don't have time/money/space for bigger games. Skirmish and Warband games are the in thing. Will it cycle back ? Maybe. But if they want to keep up they need to go smaller and historicals will have to join them.
-
Gentlemen do please behave and control your posts.
The subject is regarding a new set of rules so stick to the subject and watch your comments.
-
Has anyone received their book? What are the Britannia unit types?
-
alea iacta est
alea iacta est
alea iacta est
alea iacta est
alea iacta est
alea iacta est
alea iacta est
alea iacta est
alea iacta est
alea iacta est
alea iacta est
alea iacta est
alea iacta est
alea iacta est
alea iacta est
alea iacta est
alea iacta est
alea iacta est
alea iacta est
alea iacta est
alea iacta est
alea iacta est
alea iacta est
alea iacta est
alea iacta est
alea iacta est
alea iacta est
alea iacta est
alea iacta est
alea iacta est
lol lol
-
I think they will be released on the 20, so still 5 days.
-
Looking on the SPQR Facebook page some people have already got their pre-orders.
-
a general stigma associated with square base
Sorry, but my investigative mind needs to know... why the stigma? I use both square and round, and both of them have their advantages disadvantages. From a functional purpose all depends on what you are doing, from an aesthetic one, all depends on what you like.
-
I received my copy yesterday morning so have already had a good read of it. The main problem will be deciding on which two forces to pick as I will have to supply both sides for my games group to get a game. I was pleasantly surprised to get a Julius Caesar figure included with the order as well. Especially when I looked more closely and realised it was Kenneth Williams lol
-
I received my copy yesterday morning so have already had a good read of it. The main problem will be deciding on which two forces to pick as I will have to supply both sides for my games group to get a game. I was pleasantly surprised to get a Julius Caesar figure included with the order as well. Especially when I looked more closely and realised it was Kenneth Williams lol
"Oh-matron! lol"
-
Just found a battle report on YouTube...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hVmjzJowhL4&feature=youtu.be&fbclid=IwAR2xPvW1rDty4Y7JY1F9kVjQKYhHAujUIewZ0gLmf6rtV4mAH0ANCx98n1w
Not finished watching it yet so no idea how good it is...
-
It reminds me GW mechanics, particularly those from LOTR.
Too many dice for my taste, but I know many people that enjoys rolling dice by the bucket and they had a great time with this type of games. Not my cup of tea, though.
-
Sorry, but my investigative mind needs to know... why the stigma? I use both square and round, and both of them have their advantages disadvantages. From a functional purpose all depends on what you are doing, from an aesthetic one, all depends on what you like.
Maybe square slottas, such as used by GW, have the slot on a slant forcing one to align the troops at odd angles? Or maybe its just the "Warhammer" association? ???
-
Myself I like to have more figures on the table, not less. I like a lot of aspects of Saga, for example, but the small units is not one of them. I am thinking of doubling or tripling the size (for looks) but keeping game play the same. People used to do this sort of thing with DBA - Big Battle DBA I think it was called.
-
As a person who isn't really into Ancient gaming, this game is going to be my first foray. I'm excited because I don't have to paint 1,000,000 models and it is in my preferred scale (28mm). While it may have issues with tactics / equipment applied down to too small of a model count, I can forgive that as it'll be faster and I can get into the period.
-
beside having some literary evidence of small heavy infantry detachment in Hellenistic times (and with various degree of success), c
Intriguing - can you tell me where I could find this literary evidence?
-
Okay, going off my mind, need to dig out physical stuff and right now I am not in the mood, I just took a seat after switching stuff in the miniature boxes... it is July, I am lazy. lol
but there are references to small groups of pikemens in the bible during the Maccabean insurrection. Some researcher interpreted them as thureophoroi too. Also there are references to pezetairoi involved in some flying columns during some of Alexander pacification operations after Gaugamela. The caveat here is that they were not dozens of troops, but small full fledged columns (I think a couple of thousands troops on the small side of estimates, and they included mounted units and light support. Now, this is not concrete evidence of skirmish phalanx, but certainly could make a case of plausible use of Phalanx units in smaller operations, beside the full fledged, whole army battles there were smaller operation that required a battle line, but were not the high stake (and high personalities) battles ancient historians loved. Not Macedonian, but in Thucydides and Xenophon there are mention to small columns with Hoplite contingents. Of course the big caveat is that if not properly supported they could be decimated (what Hiphicrates did at Corinth to the Spartans).
-
Regarding the round vs square base comment, some associate square based historical miniatures games with a dry, slow moving, rivet counting play experience and are immediately turned off. I will not argue the correctness of this, only the reality of it being a perception. How is SPQR potentially different? For example, when a 40k Kill Team player sees hero driven ancients running around on round bases and tossing fist fulls of dice it will immediately have a look and feel of familiarity to their 'modern' war game sensibilities. Based on what I know, without having the rule book in my hands yet, I think SPQR is focused more on the general pool of table top miniatures players rather than on the historic focused players.
-
Okay, going off my mind, need to dig out physical stuff and right now I am not in the mood, I just took a seat after switching stuff in the miniature boxes... it is July, I am lazy. lol
but there are references to small groups of pikemens in the bible during the Maccabean insurrection. Some researcher interpreted them as thureophoroi too. Also there are references to pezetairoi involved in some flying columns during some of Alexander pacification operations after Gaugamela. The caveat here is that they were not dozens of troops, but small full fledged columns (I think a couple of thousands troops on the small side of estimates, and they included mounted units and light support. Now, this is not concrete evidence of skirmish phalanx, but certainly could make a case of plausible use of Phalanx units in smaller operations, beside the full fledged, whole army battles there were smaller operation that required a battle line, but were not the high stake (and high personalities) battles ancient historians loved. Not Macedonian, but in Thucydides and Xenophon there are mention to small columns with Hoplite contingents. Of course the big caveat is that if not properly supported they could be decimated (what Hiphicrates did at Corinth to the Spartans).
Hi,
in the thoughts of not specialists people Macedonians soldiers are what you see in SPQR warband. But there were many other kind of troops... If you want a fun gamey game all Is ok, but please don't call It historical, unless You consider historical sorces TV series like BRITANNIA or games like Rome Total War. You use terms with a bit of confusion. Phalanx for example... Hoplites and macedonian pezetairoi are totally different. Well armoured with armour and big shield and armed (2m spear + sword) vs low or no armoured, a small shield, only a very small sword for melee and above all a long long pole (5/6m) that make a big and compact group of them virtually indistructible frontally but give a very very small manouvrability, totally incompatibile with skirmish tasks.
(a small detachement of macedonian phalangites Is a dead detachement).
As I said if you want to play only for fun Is All ok, but for me a skirmish macedonian phalanx Is like an artillery battery of WWI that charges enemy trenches.
But I'm only a boring wargamer, with a degree in archaeology and a special interest in hellenism and above all Macedonia.
Davide http://www.mondoclassico.it/
-
This Is One of my book about macedonian warfare, specifically about Macedonian phalanx...
-
Brownie, on the one hand I respect that you want historical accuracy. On the otherhand this isnt the kind of game your going to get it from and you look like a spoilsport and a gatekeeper from the way your talking and posting. If you want more 'accurate' historical gaming then it starts with getting people interested like this.
-
Perhaps any confusion over the historical accuracy of the game highlights a potential problem in how it's been marketed? For my part I assumed it was going the route of historic as I think of Warlord as producing historic games (excluding Erehwon & Antares) which is how they started. I've no history with Warlord's games so know nothing of their historical accuracy. The artwork shown so far looks like the style used previously by them and like I would expect to see in an Osprey or other military history book, so I think it's fair to assume that many people would expect the game to be historically accurate.
Ideally a more heroic focused form of game should have artwork that reflects this but Warlord is, understandably, going to be reluctant to get new art done for a game that is unlikely to make them a lot of money...they are going to want to use as much art that they already have as they can. This makes sense.
-
Warlord splits between semi accurate historical games and hollywood history. The line is usually defined by player choice and how focused you are on 100% accuracy.
-
Hi,
in the thoughts of not specialists people Macedonians soldiers are what you see in SPQR warband. But there were many other kind of troops... If you want a fun gamey game all Is ok, but please don't call It historical, unless You consider historical sorces TV series like BRITANNIA or games like Rome Total War. You use terms with a bit of confusion. Phalanx for example... Hoplites and macedonian pezetairoi are totally different
Some historians (Adrian Goldsworthy for example) considered RTW sufficiently historical for some purposes... it is also a good idea to not assume famliliarit of lack of thereof on a specific topic from internet posters... one could be surprised. lol
You are right that a Pezetairoi and a Hoplite are different, and I said that they were different, but I used the example to:
1) show that close order heavy troops were used in 'smallish' formation
2) that as D. Brownie points out, they can end up in troubles.
What I think is confusing everyone, is the scale. D. Brownie assumes a 1 to 1 game and so yes, on paper, close order troops in a pike phalanx is largely out of place (except if you assume that you can do what the British Army calls tactical vignettes, zooming in on a specific segment of a battle, here a Phalanx is perfectly plausible and 'on' place). Other people, like me, thinks that Warlord has fudged a bit with exact scale, as other rules have basically done, including quite accurate one as Sharp Practice (even in its 1st edition).
As confusion about Macedonian/hellenistic infantry, often is due not by reader ignorance, but by ancient writers lack of details. Anyway going back to Alexander pezetairoi, during his invasion of Bactria, in an ambush by Spitamenes, he lost a Phalanx Taxeis supported by lights and cavalry. This means that pezetairoi were indeed used in smaller mixed 'flying columns'. It is also worth that according to Carl Otis Schuster, heavy losses in Taxeis during the first phase of the campaign led Alexander to change tactics, and also increase recruitment of locals and mercenaries.
We have to be very careful with adopting unchangeable truth in ancient warfare, after all has Dominic Rathbone (Head, Department of Classics, KCL) once said, 'Ancient History is a total mess (Actual words: 'La storia antica e' un gran casino' said with funny movie Italian accent).
As SPQR... judgement should be reserved when the game is read and played, and certainly from the initial review there could be a case that Warlord have aimed to a low figures count version of WH historical to promote historical wargaming to non historical players.
Another element is that the fact that you can do something that looks historically wrong in a game does not mean that it will succeed, or take some kind of troops that seems out of place does not mean that they will perform well...
As for the art... Warlord has some sort of relationship with Osprey, so it is reasonable they use osprey art or artist...
as I said... let's see the game before bashing it.
-
I posted what I've posted since After some answers After my indication about a matter of fact about the functionining of phalangites that Is incompatible with a skirmish /warband Wargame ("no, it's possibile..." or "you are the typical boring historical wargamer..." Are the Key concepts). Actually not, because I don't play historical wargames since are boring... I play fantasy skirmish. I have some DBA armies with some cms of dust above... (Hope for the best with Clash of Spears)
The problem of the sarissae goes beyond simple historical accuracy. Historical accuracy maybe regards the problem if a small Number of Roman legionaries would be Better of the same small Number of gaulish/ german warriors... How can a man with a 5/6 meters long pole move fast and in difficult grounds or do other things other than stay in Place or Advance straightforward?
If you want to play like this I have no problem, but do not pretend it's historical...
Why Simply don't use light infantry or hypaspists in a Macedonian Alexandrian warband? Because in common thoughts Macedonians are Pikemen?
-
An Alexandrian taxis Is around 1500 men.... Not 20. And yes, for me the ratio in a warband/skirmish game Is 1:1; otherwise you are playing a Mass Battle with Little models as all other historical wargames.
-
Hi guys!
What to Say about this?
http://www.warlordgames.com/collecting-spqr-darrens-macedonians/
I was afraid It might happen... A macedonian phalanx in a skirmish, or warband if you prefer, situation. The macedonian general should be a fool. At the best would be completely useless, but probably a disaster in the real world.
Totally Unreal...
Davide
It's not supposed to be real, its a warband game, themed around the ancients, historically inspired.
Hi Arrigo. It's not a matter of rules... A small detachement of pezetairoi armed with sarissae Simply don't work in the real world....
Once again that's nice but not the point.
Realistically GW/Warlord/Etc are realising that people in this day and age (and possibly in the future depebding on economics etc) don't have time/money/space for bigger games. Skirmish and Warband games are the in thing. Will it cycle back ? Maybe. But if they want to keep up they need to go smaller and historicals will have to join them.
This is EXACTLY the point.
Hi,
in the thoughts of not specialists people Macedonians soldiers are what you see in SPQR warband. But there were many other kind of troops... If you want a fun gamey game all Is ok, but please don't call It historical, unless You consider historical sorces TV series like BRITANNIA or games like Rome Total War. You use terms with a bit of confusion. Phalanx for example... Hoplites and macedonian pezetairoi are totally different. Well armoured with armour and big shield and armed (2m spear + sword) vs low or no armoured, a small shield, only a very small sword for melee and above all a long long pole (5/6m) that make a big and compact group of them virtually indistructible frontally but give a very very small manouvrability, totally incompatibile with skirmish tasks.
(a small detachement of macedonian phalangites Is a dead detachement).
As I said if you want to play only for fun Is All ok, but for me a skirmish macedonian phalanx Is like an artillery battery of WWI that charges enemy trenches.
But I'm only a boring wargamer, with a degree in archaeology and a special interest in hellenism and above all Macedonia.
Davide http://www.mondoclassico.it/
Its perfectly fine to call it historical. It historically inspired, historically themed. Historically accurate? No, its Historical Fiction. Notice all of the uses of the word 'historical' here?
I posted what I've posted since After some answers After my indication about a matter of fact about the functionining of phalangites that Is incompatible with a skirmish /warband Wargame ("no, it's possibile..." or "you are the typical boring historical wargamer..." Are the Key concepts). Actually not, because I don't play historical wargames since are boring... I play fantasy skirmish. I have some DBA armies with some cms of dust above... (Hope for the best with Clash of Spears)
The problem of the sarissae goes beyond simple historical accuracy. Historical accuracy maybe regards the problem if a small Number of Roman legionaries would be Better of the same small Number of gaulish/ german warriors... How can a man with a 5/6 meters long pole move fast and in difficult grounds or do other things other than stay in Place or Advance straightforward?
If you want to play like this I have no problem, but do not pretend it's historical...
Why Simply don't use light infantry or hypaspists in a Macedonian Alexandrian warband? Because in common thoughts Macedonians are Pikemen?
I'd argue its apparent you do have a problem as you have felt the need to link websites, book pages, and mention your degree to argue a point that is in all honesty rather pointless. It should be apparent to all observers that Warlord's intent is not create the most perfect historically accurate ancients rule-set of all time. the point is to create a more accessible entry point to a time period by keeping the word 'historical', adding a pinch of Hollywood, a dash of popular RPG mechanics, and serving it with a taste of everyone's favorite parts of the armies involved. At this point the conversation has strayed far from the topic of this post and has degraded to typical internet behavior.
This discussion needs to be put to rest and I would ask the moderators to please remove any further historical accuracy discussions from the thread.
As has already been highlighted earlier in the thread, this is a negative for this hobby. We seem to like to forget that everyone builds their armies, and picks their games for their own reasons.
If it isn't for you that's grand. If it is, also grand. For myself in the US, where large scale historical of any kind, accurate, or hollywood like, seems to be rare if not nonexistent in some areas, games like Saga and Bolt action have been a godsend. Easy to pick up, quick to play, cheaper to get into from a time and money perspective. this fits that mold.
-
This!
Exactly what commanderBaker said.
It's a fun game that takes its inspiration from history.
It's the ancients tabletop version of a Sharpe novel.