Lead Adventure Forum
Other Stuff => General Wargames and Hobby Discussion => Topic started by: redrevuk on June 18, 2019, 04:38:57 PM
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For the last couple of days the 4Ground website (4Ground.co.uk) has either been flashing me a 'not secure' message or redirecting me to a clearly draft website for some sort of housing association. There is a new mirror website called 4Groundpublishing but it isn't exactly the same as the old site. Anyone know what's going on? Is it legit?
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Yes, they updated Facebook to say this is the new site: https://www.4groundpublishing.co.uk
Quite why they've changed domain or done so without redirecting old traffic properly....that I don't know lol
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Really helpful - thanks!
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Update on the situation
https://www.thegazette.co.uk/all-notices/notice?sort-by=latest-date&results-page-size=5&results-page=1&text=4ground&categorycode=G205010000+G206030000&mainwebsite=1
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For the non-UK folks here (unfamiliar a few terms in those notices), simple bankruptcy notice?
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Ok so what does this mean for the company if it is "declaring bankruptcy". Does anyone know who has picked them up as the statement comment on Kickstarter says that the new owner will honor the pledges? Don’t feel really very confident about that.
So new owners?
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This was on Facebook:
I'm a bit worried about some news shared on a FB group. Is this just a restructuring thing or does this mean an end to your awesome products?
And 4Ground's reply 16 hours ago:
Just restructuring, don't worry. We are consolidating everything under Tymeagain Ltd. as the original parent company, it just makes things a bit easier.
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Ok so now I am calm again, thanks for that.
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That was more or less my assumption, so I'm glad that's the case. They seem to be releasing loads of new stuff and attending trade shows, etc. I would have been shocked had it been an immediate "we're done, cya!" move.
Good!
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I am a little concerned still as the Kickstarter is almost a year late!
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I don’t like to kick anyone thats down and as a new signup who just wanted to see some cool models.
I saw this thread commented on somewhere else and thought I'd comment since I heard from a few sources that creditors had all received letters saying that they were getting 10p in the £ of what they were owed a couple of weeks ago and it was some hefty sums and seems to have been trade news for a few weeks now.
At the same time the rushed and botched domain name change leading to people not being able to find the website and the total lack of contact details or company info on the new website, all in my opinion sounds a little more serious than a strategic move.
I would proceed with caution but thats for others to make their minds up about. The lack of announcement and the deleting and dismissing of Facebook posts with comments like 'its nothing sinister' is in itself sinister. Lets be clear as its in black and white and a matter of record, 4Ground has been liquidated so does not exist any more but the Facebook page and new website still look like exactly the same company which is misleading and for me sound borderline illegal. They might have done some pre-pack deal and they might still be trading as something else now but they left all their dept behind and that would include Kickstarter which is now way way overdue and every update seems to be just to tell you there will be an update soon.
to quote the type of liquidation mentioned in the announcement link in the earlier thread, the big important part is unlike a MVL, the CVL refers to an insolvent company.
https://www.thegazette.co.uk/notice/3301622
Creditors voluntary liquidation process
Creditors voluntary liquidation is initiated by the directors and shareholders of the business, where they are looking to liquidate a company which is unable to pay its debts. Unlike an MVL, the CVL refers to an insolvent company, but both processes must be carried out by a licensed insolvency practitioner (IP). By entering creditors voluntary liquidation, you limit personal liability and avoid the threat of compulsory liquidation.
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I hope you're wrong, then! :)
I wonder, though, if they did cock up, if they fell into the over-promising Kickstarter trap that so many companies have fallen into.
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Somewhat concerning as I'd like to pick up their Stoic Arms which is not a trifling sum to risk.
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There are a lot of retailers with that kit in stock (in the US the prices suck because Noble Knight jacks up the prices obscenely). Not risking anything if you order from one of them.
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That's true, I'll have a look around after payday
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Agree with Elbows, unfortunately sounds like the KS has caused quite a bit of problems - it'll be very disappointing if trying to create a new miniature game and figure line will have caused this collapse. Should have just kept the focus on terrain.
They have been running a 25% off everything sale all month and hearing all this, despite the fantastic discount, makes me extremely leery to order anything :?
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While I hate to see 4Ground possibly go out of business, I don't believe they're the kind of company to steal/rob people in their closing days (if that's the case). I haven't heard anything untoward about their business practices - though if you're a KS backer that might be a concern.
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This is rather disconcerting, even if I have nothing riding on the KS.
It seemed to me that 4ground were going from strength to strength in the last couple of years. Their products are top of the line and very popular; every time I see their stand at a show, it's packed with people and stuff sells.
It would be a real shame if they were to fold due to business issues; it certainly can't be their products.
And yes; like many others, I've been ogling that gigantic inn for a couple of years now. Totally impractical, difficult to store and of limited value in play, but man, how cool is that thing eh?
Here's to hoping everything is as well as 4Ground makes it out to be... :?
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A 25% off sale as well ? I did not know what, I have to agree sounds like a bit of a cash grab.
Agree with Elbows, unfortunately sounds like the KS has caused quite a bit of problems - it'll be very disappointing if trying to create a new miniature game and figure line will have caused this collapse. Should have just kept the focus on terrain.
They have been running a 25% off everything sale all month and hearing all this, despite the fantastic discount, makes me extremely leery to order anything :?
So you don''t think going bust, changing your website hurriedly and starting up as a new business without telling anyone and then running a 25% off sale and denying anything is actually wrong is not untoward :)
While I hate to see 4Ground possibly go out of business, I don't believe they're the kind of company to steal/rob people in their closing days (if that's the case). I haven't heard anything untoward about their business practices - though if you're a KS backer that might be a concern.
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Honestly? No. None of that makes me think they're suddenly money-stealing criminals....that's a bizarre leap.
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The "I'm all right Jack and to hell with you" behaviour is very reminiscent of the end of Maelstrom Games. Passed existing stock and assets to a new business entity run by the same people, left the debts and creditors with the old company.
Then carry on as if nothing has happened and turn a blind eye to the people you have left out of pocket.
Not illegal, but certainly not the business practice of anyone I would ever trust or deal with again.
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I concur, but only if that is what happens (and is proven). Just seems a lot of immediate judgment based on very little information.
I hope that's not the case, but seems like it could be. I'd rather solid proof is provided before I cast judgment.
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I'm afraid to be the bearer of bad news but there is solid proof. I would point out that I was for many years a banker dealing with Insolvency of just this size of company so I have a bit of experience here. It is a Creditors Voluntary Liquidation rather then a Members Voluntary Liquidation meaning that the company is bust and there is no way that anything can be just transferred to another entity just like that - including responsibility for completing the Kickstarter. They couldn't do this as a legal obligation since the Kickstarter backers are unsecured creditors and this would have preferred them in the liquidation. There are very strict rules on this sort of thing and KS backers are with those at the back of the queue for any payout.
It is possible for someone else to voluntarily supply the items in the KS but there is no obligation to do so.
In any event there is nothing to stop any backer from lodging a claim with the liquidator and this would not have any impact on the 4Ground Publishing since it is in the estate of 4Ground Ltd.
I have posted this as there seems to be a lot of confusion going around but rather than take my word for it feel free to contact the liquidator directly, details on the Gazette
https://www.thegazette.co.uk/notice/3301622/ (https://www.thegazette.co.uk/notice/3301622/)
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I would advise caution given that 4ground publishing doesn't appear to exist on Companies House.
Their new website also doesn't list a postal address which is a requirement of trading online...
I think I'll only be buying in-stock items from re-sellers until the picture is clear.
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Hey Elbows, I agree, I did not for one moment say anything illegal was happening I was just making the same point as others have made that all it not rosy and we cannot deny there are some thing which are not by the rules.
Honestly? No. None of that makes me think they're suddenly money-stealing criminals....that's a bizarre leap.
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I’d been eyeing up La Haye Sainte........but maybe I’ll hold
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Posted on the bolt action FB pages, and basically
We want to talk but out solicitor says no. If all was good why is your solicitor telling you not to say anything ?
We won't honour credit notes we gave out and we have no legal obligation to the kickstrter backers but and here is the kicker 'Would still like to produce the game "as we see fit"'
(https://scontent.fman2-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/65266196_123834285508600_8576101275433697280_o.jpg?_nc_cat=100&_nc_oc=AQn54CxRqt0ApqycPe9IKqAGYJuVaiAf1GGSFHcO9jH6m9FAklURDv6MqslsDtv0K1Y&_nc_ht=scontent.fman2-1.fna&oh=4bad1f3be20a09dfdd272f28dc445ce7&oe=5D7E1F38)
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Put it on the shelf next to Hero Quest 25th Anniversary then I guess.
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So, is the Fabled Realms group breaking off from 4Ground (and which of them is bankrupt?).
It will really frustrate me if a good company like 4Ground ended up the victim of a poorly run Kickstarter...I feel like people would have learned about this risk by now.
On the plus side (sadly?) a company who does laser cutting stuff can liquidate its assets easily. Machines are sold off...files are sold to someone else, etc. The above posters though make it sound like it's a restructuring to avoid paying creditors. So that's unfortunate.
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4Ground has gone bust - Fabled Realms is part of 4Ground so yes is the short answer they are both ex parrots and it looks from the small statement so far that them thinking they could burn the dept and the creditors and salvage something of KS is not so simple as it sounds without the creditors coming after them. As I said the other day far from a simple everything is fine restructure.
So, is the Fabled Realms group breaking off from 4Ground (and which of them is bankrupt?).
It will really frustrate me if a good company like 4Ground ended up the victim of a poorly run Kickstarter...I feel like people would have learned about this risk by now.
On the plus side (sadly?) a company who does laser cutting stuff can liquidate its assets easily. Machines are sold off...files are sold to someone else, etc. The above posters though make it sound like it's a restructuring to avoid paying creditors. So that's unfortunate.
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Really sad, as they have(had?) some of the finest MDF kits in the business. Also, I was really enamored by some of the sculpts for their Fabled Realms game... :(
So a good thing then that the initial posts had me finally pull the trigger and snatch up a copy of the Stoic Arms (and at a very reasonable price too I might add, from a German webstore) before it completely disappears from the market.
It was only a matter of time before I would have anyway... :D
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I'm no expert, but whether they can salvage the Kickstarter is now nothing to do with the original 4Ground company and everything to do with how (and if) the new company is funded, and whether it has the assets to continue the project. If it's the same people (appears to be) then the latter is likely to be true at least in terms of the designs etc. I don't know how material assets are handled in a case like this.
We shouldn't assume this was a cynical move to slough off the debt when it's just as possible to be incompetence, bad luck, or poor trading conditions. However there's always a raised eyebrow when a company goes under but somehow the directors have access to enough funds to start a new one selling the same things...
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I don't think there is any danger at all off 4 Ground disappearing. I wrote to there liquidator last week inquiring about what assets were for sale and the reply that I got was that a sale had already been agreed, which suggests that they will be buying back there own asset's and carrying on under a different name without there debts, as they are obviously not selling any assets off in an open market to the highest bidder.
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How would that work? Company A owned by X goes bust owing money to all and sundry, liquidator takes over and arranges sale to X who simply rebrands the company as Z? Obviously there are permutations to that scenario but there are, at least in this country, legal obligations that a liquidator must meet, the liquidator being there to act in the interest of the creditors. X or X and Y would need to have cleared their debts and have the capital to repurchase the assets.
I find it interesting that their distributor in Oz pulled the pin some months ago and I’ve noticed other retailers who had some sort of relationship elsewhere also seemed to have severed ties.
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Well it did seem a bit odd that so early on the liquidator was not at all interested in getting bids from other parties to maximize return to creditors, just saying that a sale had already been arranged.
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How would that work? Company A owned by X goes bust owing money to all and sundry, liquidator takes over and arranges sale to X who simply rebrands the company as Z? Obviously there are permutations to that scenario but there are, at least in this country, legal obligations that a liquidator must meet, the liquidator being there to act in the interest of the creditors. X or X and Y would need to have cleared their debts and have the capital to repurchase the assets.
I find it interesting that their distributor in Oz pulled the pin some months ago and I’ve noticed other retailers who had some sort of relationship elsewhere also seemed to have severed ties.
You are essentially right as that is pretty much how it works here also with a bit of a tweak. There is nothing wrong with the previous owners and/or directors purchasing the assets of the company in liquidation however the liquidator is obliged to act in the interests of the creditors.
I don't think there is any danger at all off 4 Ground disappearing. I wrote to there liquidator last week inquiring about what assets were for sale and the reply that I got was that a sale had already been agreed, which suggests that they will be buying back there own asset's and carrying on under a different name without there debts, as they are obviously not selling any assets off in an open market to the highest bidder.
This is the bit that smells bad since it would indicate that no effort was made by the liquidator to get best market value and that it has been promoted to the directors as a way to keep going and walk away from a load of debt. Unfortunately this happens a lot however most cases don't have hundreds of small claimants many of whom will be chatting on forums like this and it happens under the radar so speak.
I reckon that the KS backers, who are unsecured creditors, would be best served by sticking a claim in a.s.a.p. then requesting a creditors meeting and making sure that best value has been obtained for all the company assets, physical and intangible.
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I have absolutely no axe to grind here, but I have been a Director of a number of UK limited companies and been involved as a consultant with numerous others, including ones who went into liquidation.
What I will say is that if company A is funded for a kickstarter and then goes into liquidation, the directors of that company have absolutely no obligation to complete any projects that company A promised to undertake. Company A is dead, as would be the kickstarter. In such a case those who funded the kickstarter are in a long line of creditors and are likely to get pennies in the pound back, if indeed it is worth pursuing at all.
However, there are some situations where the former directors of company A will voluntarily undertake to complete certain projects that their former company undertook as they have another company already up and running and wish to maintain a good ongoing relationship with their customers. They have absolutely no legal obligation to do so.
What does seem wrong here, is that assets of the original company have been sold directly to a new company with the same directors. There is a legal obligation for the liquidator to achieve the best possible sale value for any assets that are remaining in order to provide creditors with the best possible recompense. That said, it is by no means unusual for the liquidator to consider another company (albeit with the same directors) as being best placed to give a reasonable price for any remaining assets. The alternative is usually fire-sale prices to a random crowd of corporate vultures at auction.
As stated, I have no axe to grind here and I hope that all ends amicably and nobody is out of pocket. I just thought that I would add this on the basis that I have seen this before and there is a lot of rubbish being said on line generally (not here, it must be said).
Cheers
Richard
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My frustration here is the '4Ground are good guys' comments and the lack of an actual statement.
They could be the best, nicest, most honourable people on the planet producing the best kits money can buy but the company has been liquidated for being insolvent. The dept and any obligation to anything historical left behind with it. 4Ground does not exist - oh except on their website / facebook etc where everything is fine we just changed our domain name and having a little restructure.
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I won't judge until we have seen the full ramifications and all that comes out in the wash comes out so to speak.
What I will say is that if they have just left their KS backers high and dry, then simply restarting the company by changing the name etc is a really bad move.
There will be a backlash and it will damage their customer base. That in itself could take it's toll.
Unless the manage it better and at least honour the KS backers.
I was going to back the KS, but as soon as I saw they were resin printing and buying multiple printers I knew not backing it was in the end for the better. It would have been far cheaper to outsource the infantry types at least to a metal manufacturer. Printing the masters would have been fine.
And whilst I like their lasercut stuff I did find it to be pricey in comparison to others.
IMHO the best I have seen out there is Knights of Dice, which is frustrating due to them being at such a distance shipping is a killer.
A lot of companies have started to use cardboard, but I'd like to see folks use different thicknesses of wood. You can get pretty thin ply that is also flexible. Anyway, I digress... 8)
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I was going to back the KS, but as soon as I saw they were resin printing and buying multiple printers I knew not backing it was in the end for the better. It would have been far cheaper to outsource the infantry types at least to a metal manufacturer. Printing the masters would have been fine.
:o Had to see that for myself. That’s insane. They should’ve stuck to laser cutting.
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Yeah, I mean, no doubt, at some point in the future that might be the way forward, but we're not there yet. Especially considering the cost of decent printers - I mean the ones that can compete in terms of detail and zero print lines needed to match the traditionally cast metal and resin miniatures.
That's before you even take into account the amount of time it takes. A spin could have up to 16 miniatures in a mould done in a few moments. To print the same would be much more in time from my understanding.
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It has been an interesting ride with what seems to have been mistake after mistake by 4Ground. However, the following are only my guesses on what went on based on the information (or lack of information) on the Kickstarter, lots of interviews on Beasts of War and other sites.
It started well and funding was achieved and it drew in about 107,000 pounds. But then the mistakes seem to have started. I think and this is only supposition, that the mistake that started all the problems was a pledge level that promised the gamers a Beta testing weekend where those that pledged would be able to play test the rules, with the figures. The problem seems to have been the date of this event, I believe that this set off the entire fiasco we are in now. As they got closer to the date they received figures from Chine which were not up to scratch and I can understand that. (However, I have had some amazing figures in plastic from chine, both the figures from Rising Sun and Nemesis are fantastic) Now they try to switch to Resin but cannot find anyone that can produce the figures in the time frame of the Beta Weekend, so they go with printed as that is in house and how hard can that be! They seem to have produced enough for the Beta weekend but now instead of switching back to Resin they go all in on the printing and lease a bunch of machines to finish the job. Now based on my guess with 437 backers I can only assume that the total number of figures must have been in the Thousands range with 50+ number of original figures in the Kickstarter, the stretch goal figures alone that would have gone to most of those 437 backers is around 9,000 figures. So non-stop printing for a year!!!! To compound the financial drain on themselves they started to send out the terrain in a couple of shipments again a crazy business decision with just an added cost burden to the company! This seems to me to be the fundamental problem with the Kickstarter itself, I am not aware of any financial problems they might have been having which would only have compounded the problem.
What is so frustrating is that they talk about a vote to do printed but then nothing when they change a fundamental mechanic in the rules, with the originale mechanic shown in the early rules and all of the videos. Then they claim that a “number” of gamers at conventions thought this mechanic was too burdensome, however, no questions about this was asked of the 400 + backers of the game.
Still this had promised, I guess (or hope) still does, to be a rather interesting and innovative miniature game for fantasy miniature with some great ideas behind the momentum rules and use of cards to enhance and give flavor to certain races and methods of combat with a great original idea of the use of dice in the game.
I still hope that we see the Rules, as too the figures although the 4 samples I received have the most incredible detail are rather boring, with the same old same old look of orcs, elves, human (in faux medieval armor) goblins and all the other races we have no lack of from dozens of manufactures.
This of course is all speculation and could all be wrong and completely off base but these are my assumptions and I am sticking with them as they fit my world view!!!!!
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Some really good insight wkeyser. And incredibly disappointing at the same time as it seems you really summed up where everything went wrong.
Fingers crossed for all involved, backers and everyone at 4Ground themselves, that things will turn out ok. I've been using 4Ground products since near the very beginning of their existence and I have loved seeing how far they have come and improved their products in that time, it will be a real shame for that KS to have ruined the company :(
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The biggest mistake anyone can think is that resin is a cheap option. It's cheap if it isn't proper resin and done in China, otherwise it really isn't that cheap. It rips through moulds more quickly, is more labour intensive as a result and therefore carries higher costs.
Metal comparatively is faster and more consistent in price. When you get that sort of backing and you haven't got a reliable producer, go to metal every time.
The biggest cost difference to the end user is cost of shipping. Mass producing in resin is just not practical unless you a going down the Prodos route. Otherwise you are looking at remoulding after so many casts. I've been told a mould lasts between 20-30 casts depending upon complexity...
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"IMHO the best I have seen out there is Knights of Dice, which is frustrating due to them being at such a distance shipping is a killer."
I've been buying KoD from "Shiny Games" in the UK which avoids some of the more boring aspects of shipping -- and they're nice people to deal with.
It's still not cheap terrain, but like you say the quality is awesome. It's the double and triple thickness walls that mean they can really get relief detail into them.
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Agreed with KoD being the best MDF. Fortunately I can pick their stuff up from the studio inside of a 15-20 minute drive.
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Wow, hard to believe that 4ground fucked themselves up - they were one of the few “reliable” players in the laser market (I don’t personally like laser mdf).
But still ... damn!
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I see that 4Ground is more active on Facebook again, posting like nothing is happening. But they did mention they will post an update on the situation today.
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Ben from 4Ground just posted this on their Facebook page;
Regarding 4Ground, 4Ground Publishing and Tymeagain Ltd.
Tymeagain Ltd. is delighted to finally be able to let it be known we have successfully purchased the brand ‘4Ground’ along with all tangible liquidated assets of the company 4Ground Ltd.
This information release is, we hope, the easiest way for followers and collectors of ‘4Ground’ to know more of what has happened. But if you would like to know more about what is happening, we would like you to contact us on enq@tymeagain.co.uk and we will answer what we can.
Why it happened; first, a bit of the history, 4Ground Ltd. (4G) was incorporated as a limited company in 2011, at the time of incorporation it had just one shareholder, that being Tymeagain Ltd. (TY) which was, therefore, the 4G parent company. This is a standard operating practice ring-fencing a name by creating a company to physically protect that identity from a third-party registering that name. This action usually means the parent company has considered the likelihood that eventually that range/label may require its own space as a separate legal entity, in the interim all annual trading returns are filed each year stating this is a non-trading, wholly-owned subsidiary of the parent, often such a legal entity is referred to as a dormant company (also known as ‘shelved’ or ‘mothballed’).
In due time the 4G range/label had become identified in the market as a leading brand, it did indeed continue to flourish. At a later point in time, 50% of the ‘mothballed’ company’s shares were offered to and then acquired by Adam Cresswell-Jeal. This was in preparation for it finally being the right time to commence trading; therefore 4Ground Ltd. would no longer be dormant. From this period onwards Tymeagain Ltd. retained 50% of the original 100% ownership but 4G was no longer a brand within TY. As a trading company 4G started to file actual annual trading returns to companies house (so from being a TY brand it had now broken away to be trading independently of TY.) Later Cad (Benedict Cresswell-Jeal) was also brought on as a shareholder owning 26% of the shares with Tymeagain and Adam Cresswell-Jeal split with the remaining shares.
From the moment a company breaks away from its parent company, it has no credibility (poor credit) in its own right. It is usual for the parent company to still help in every way possible (financially, logistically) but the parent company cannot do this gratis (without reason). It is usual in this instance for there to be an intercompany account ledger set up between the two companies, to better prevent the likelihood of gratuitous trading between the two companies.
Historically the intercompany accounts ledger between TY and 4G has recorded all such instances, for example, every time TY provided working capital, or for the renting of 4G premises/space to operate/warehouse, etc. renting the TY owned manufacturing equipment/machinery, etc. and sundry another intercompany trading. Legally, within reason, nothing is to be considered for free in intercompany accounting; therefore where taxes would usually be incurred between unrelated companies, these same taxes must be incurred between related companies).
By the end of 2016, 4G and TY were having a lot of duplication of tasks, such as government information request returns, insurance/indemnities, etc. This we identified as being collectively a great inefficiency, we obviously wished to achieve better efficiency in our collective day-to-day working practice. It was at this time that it was decided that TY would change its known trading/working practice - under English and Welsh law it is possibly illegal in some instances for a registered trading company to trade in a field/market differing greatly from that which they had originally stated on their incorporation (please note it is not usually considered illegal, but for any company to know if at any point they cross the line it is easier to just disclose all types of trading/marketing they work in).
As was widely known 4G at this time already had both in-house, and independent designers, 4G owned the right to profit from the manufacture of all these designs but it did not own the intellectual property of independent designers. It was decided that TY’s relationship with 4G would be that of an independent designer and that as well as intercompany accounting 4G would also pay TY royalties as it was now yet another independent designer working with 4G. At this point, all TY staff would transfer their employment to 4G, with a continuum of service under the contracts they had from TY. At this time no machines (eg, lasers) were sold to 4G, all machines remained the property of TY and 4G continued to show the rental for said machines in their intercompany accounts ledger
The liquidation of 4G has had nothing to do with the model building kits we make or kickstarted projects, or any other reason bar one! As a company our main business of manufacture was for the UK heritage marketplace, making wooden toys and games for many hundreds of heritage and visitor attraction sites if you have been to any castle in the UK and bought a wooden sword or bow and arrow then almost certainly it was made by us. This year 4G's sales to historic sites were £100k less in the first quarter compared to 2018, this was caused by uncertainties caused by the March 29th Brexit issues which had massively affected sales to historic sites as they were unsure of the number of European tourists that would visit our country. This loss in sales caused 4G to have financial problems, at the same time TYs credit to 4G had increased, in fact not going into specifics but the amount had reached over £250k. The directors of 4G called in their accountant to discuss the situation and the accountant advised them to liquidate the company. Kirks were called into place to act as the insolvency practitioner and the process was started.
Kirks provided contact with all the creditors to inform them of the situation and employed the services of an official auctioneer to assess and value all 4G's assets. Kirks were agreed by the creditors as the official Insolvency Practitioners and approached TY as an interested party to buy the assets that 4G owned. TY agreed to the price and bought the stock, assets, and materials of 4G. The directors of TY then had to prove that they were not "pheonixing" and that their trade use of a prohibited name was legally acceptable and that they were not attempting to circumvent the law. This was finalised Thursday (04/07/2019) and was ratified in the London Gazette.
We are now able to communicate further with fans and customers about what is happening as we are under less (not zero) legal constraints. So, let us deal with some of the rumours that have been passed around by members of the community and some of the questions we have received:
Q) That 4G was liquidated due to a Creditors Voluntary Liquidation rather than a Members Voluntary Liquidation?
A) 4G owed TY a very large sum of money, when liquidating, a company may only base its liquidation on its state of finances. Due to the money owed to TY, 4G was not solvent (the reason for the liquidation) and as such had to perform a Creditors Voluntary Liquidation. Without the debt owed to TY, the company would have performed a Members Voluntary Liquidation (or would not have had to liquidate at all).
Q) When 4G liquidated other companies in the industry were left owed large sums of money in some cases as much as six-figure sums?
A) This is untrue, due to the legal concerns there are some companies in the industry that were left with some debts as we were unable to preferentially treat any of our creditors. None of the debts in the industry were in six-figure sums, not even in four-figured sums. The only company owed a six-figure sum was TY.
Q) What will happen to the Legends Of Fabled Realms Kickstarter?
A) The Legends of Fabled Realms Kickstarter was instigated by 4G as such the directors of 4G had a choice, they could list it as a formal debt, have it written off and have the Kickstarter backers go through the liquidation process and receive whatever they would receive. Or treat the Kickstarter backers as orders. If we treated the backers as orders we could argue that as they had not claimed or been supplied with any remuneration from the liquidation we were supplying the backers with their orders as goodwill (the same as mail orders placed before the liquidation). The problem with this is that if any of the backers claimed they would disbar us from providing them with any goodwill items since they would then be a preferential debt. This meant that we could supply the products to our Kickstarter backers (that had not claimed) without any potential issues caused by preferential repayment of creditors.
With regard to The Legends Of Fabled Realms itself, we are able to continue with the production of the game and we will be completing it as soon as we possibly can.
Q) Why was none of this communicated with the wider world or Kickstarter backers?
A) TY and 4G were under legal constraints that caused the companies to be unable to communicate any of this fully. The directors of 4G are legally required to make every effort to remunerate their creditors. As such they could not inform, hint or advise, anyone that 4G was about to cease trading as if that was the case it could be seen that they willingly caused the creditors to receive less remuneration, breaking the law. TY could counter this by accepting the dispatch of the orders as an act of goodwill, and under the auspices of the insolvency practitioners, to not damage the 4G name which they had just acquired.
Q) Why was this stated as a restructuring?
A) Because if it wasn't for 4G's debt to TY it would be, we have wanted to reintegrate the two companies for a while, the downturn in work for 4G forced our hand early. We would have preferred to do this later, but business law is business law.
Q) If this has happened before what will stop it happening again, are my orders safe with TY?
A) This should not happen again, the main issue is unlikely to be repeated as the period of most activity in the heritage industry will have already been passed by the October Brexit deadline, also additional debts to banks, loan providers, etc. are not something TY has been burdened with. Since May 22nd TY orders have increased rapidly, so much so that we should be advertising for two new jobs within the next week.
Your orders are safe with TY but you don't have to just take our word for it. We are using PayPal and sage pay for our order system, both of which have a form of chargeback system that you can use. If your order is not dispatched from us within 15 working days you can, and if you are unhappy as the product has not been dispatched, should use these systems.
Q) I'm a trade customer how does this affect me?
A) It doesn't. You continue ordering and receiving products as you normally would.
Q) I'm someone that owed 4G money and I am being chased by the Liquidator?
A) By law they do have to chase you, the best thing to do is contact the liquidator and discuss the issue.
Sorry for the long message, we have tried to cover everything we can.
Finally we want to say thank you to all of you that have supported Cad, Hellyn, Kev, Andy, Luke, Sid, Emma, Kris, Dan, Robbie, Izzy, Tommy, Alex, Lee, Jamie, Jacqui, Stephen, Janet and Myself through this and to say thank you to some of the special friends and Kickstarter backers we have out there that wanted to help and wished us the best.
Kind Regards,
Ben
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So it was all Brexit's fault. Well, well.
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So the downturn in demand for Wooden swords and Bows and arrows sounded the death knell for 4Ground (as was)?
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So it was all Brexit's fault. Well, well.
So the downturn in demand for Wooden swords and Bows and arrows sounded the death knell for 4Ground (as was)?
Neither particularly surprising.
There is a chap that frequents this very forum who once told me "If you want to make £1million in the wargaming industry, you need to spend £2million first!"
Despite what everyone says, it is rarely a lucrative industry.
That means a lot of the companies and businesses have to get creative. A lot of them are not full time businesses as people balance the non hugely profit making with something that will pay the bills. Others make use of their skills to do two things - model making for architectural projects or even movies etc.
Clearly 4Ground found a market with the lasercut swords etc. Good on them for doing that. It sounds a lot like they waited too long for that source of income to return.
I know we're not to get political, so mods feel free to delete this bit if needed, but - tourism has decreased since the ref and as time has progressed. So if your business relies on tourism, it's fair to say it may well also have been impacted by the reduction in it.
In a wider sense I suspect it could also be a result of people having less money and the stocks that the likes of museums and national trust places etc may not have shifted as quickly as before.
However, I still maintain that using printers to print resin miniatures really isn't a cost effective way to do it. Yes, there may have been more of a delay but they could have looked for a resin spin caster or someone that uses Prodos like techniques. Or apologised and gone metal, which would have been far faster, and far cheaper.
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What is the Prodos technique that people have mentioned?
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What is the Prodos technique that people have mentioned?
I don't think they've ever stated explicitly, but I seem to remember figuring it was reaction injection moulding. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TWEfbGH-Ewc (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TWEfbGH-Ewc)
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A very good evening to one and all. Earlier today I was attending Attack 2019 at Devizes. On my way round I stopped at the 4ground stand and was very pleased to see both Cad and Ben who are back on the show circuit to fly the flag for the 4ground buildings etc. I own quite a bit of the Old West/Dead Man's Hand and World at War ranges and I'm happy to say I'll be able to continue expanding both collections. 4ground are great guys with an excellent product that would have been a great loss to the wargaming world.