Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => Age of Myths, Gods and Empires => Topic started by: Atheling on August 18, 2019, 06:47:02 PM
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First look at Aventine Miniatures Early Byzantines- they do look great!
Linkage:
https://aventineminiatures.co.uk/
(Taken from Wargames, Soldiers and Strategy):
https://www.karwansaraypublishers.com/wssnews/early-byzantines-in-28mm/
From Aventine:
"We have been working away at the new range, Adam has a lot of bits done and we are approaching the completion of the Heavy Infantry. To keep you all up to date we decided to shown WIP on some of the infantry. The mail aventails etc. still need to be added. Archers for the rear rank nearing completion. We already have the heads and shields completed so just the officers to do."
(https://aventineminiatures.co.uk/wp/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/IMG_1559-1.jpg)
(https://aventineminiatures.co.uk/wp/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/IMG_1557-2.jpg)
(https://aventineminiatures.co.uk/wp/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/IMG_1556-2.jpg)
Love 'em! :-* :-* :-*
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The figures look superb, real Heavy infantry . Adam and Keith are doing a great job on these . ✔️
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Aventine link added to above- apologies for missing that.
The figures look superb, real Heavy infantry . Adam and Keith are doing a great job on these . ✔️
I'm gagging at the bit to see what they have in the pipeline.
Kind Regards
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Absolutely smashing!
At last I found my Antesignani !!!
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A new update on their website today. The figs look great!
https://aventineminiatures.co.uk/first-look-at-the-byzantine-infantry/ (https://aventineminiatures.co.uk/first-look-at-the-byzantine-infantry/)
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Yeah, I'm very excited about this range!!
Quick look to go with the link above:
(https://aventineminiatures.co.uk/wp/wp-content/uploads/2019/09/20190906_120832-1024x576.jpg)
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First unit ready and in store Photos on Facebook page.
(https://scontent-lht6-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/69800669_2408326895917089_2114969594518044672_o.jpg?_nc_cat=102&_nc_oc=AQlCKy0fUaZiprOiLa2GWK5bRpQ160326go_zIsy0GWiQQtVhCeJxBtu02U2ySAuaFk&_nc_ht=scontent-lht6-1.xx&oh=a2bbdb4e1f1516240e66e6d268b2104c&oe=5E01C3F6)
Cheers
Keith
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First unit ready and in store Photos on Facebook page.
(https://scontent-lht6-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/69800669_2408326895917089_2114969594518044672_o.jpg?_nc_cat=102&_nc_oc=AQlCKy0fUaZiprOiLa2GWK5bRpQ160326go_zIsy0GWiQQtVhCeJxBtu02U2ySAuaFk&_nc_ht=scontent-lht6-1.xx&oh=a2bbdb4e1f1516240e66e6d268b2104c&oe=5E01C3F6)
Cheers
Keith
Really beautiful sculpts Keith :-* :-* :-* :-* :-*
Have you an Early Byzantine to do list that you could perhaps divulge? ;) :)
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Hi, we hope to cover all the necessary figures for the range. Next up will be the rear rank archers then the earlier/lighter armoured infantry in shorter mail. Adam has confirmed he will do slingers, staff slingers, archers, javelinmen and a load of different cavalry. It will be a big range.
Cheers
Keith
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It's a good news !
It may be the start of a new SAGA project for me.
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Hi, we hope to cover all the necessary figures for the range. Next up will be the rear rank archers then the earlier/lighter armoured infantry in shorter mail. Adam has confirmed he will do slingers, staff slingers, archers, javelinmen and a load of different cavalry. It will be a big range.
That is indeed fantastic news 8)
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My quick PJ on the 1st couple
(https://scontent-lht6-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/70198440_2410240385725740_8240167968835633152_o.jpg?_nc_cat=105&_nc_oc=AQlxpBbqLCB2-hIX1AcDOZw8K2IHA5k-kndqAOjQqIbXWbZuRqJ2mHMov8iGszp5Lz4&_nc_ht=scontent-lht6-1.xx&oh=e38785ac7bebb1a60d1660c1e4e9a1da&oe=5E131655)
(https://scontent-lht6-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/70199721_2410240395725739_3731569154151415808_o.jpg?_nc_cat=111&_nc_oc=AQnBtsSM3JhHVCL5B5vPyrWK6WzSgUoara1Zo7TsWExhj6lofZj6cA8D3faPY5H47qU&_nc_ht=scontent-lht6-1.xx&oh=dcf8fda61bf603f4299ca73220bbaa89&oe=5E0C5FDB)
(https://scontent-lht6-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/69981491_2410240402392405_3722987199608651776_o.jpg?_nc_cat=102&_nc_oc=AQm19dTZhB7p6qDfI__d0Uz_ogFJfv9x-1dQLs7Q2h_mgSiXFg9IUCC02OdP1Ol1POk&_nc_ht=scontent-lht6-1.xx&oh=b6560bec8aedec633ccd01a13bf5300e&oe=5DF4D65D)
Cheers
Keith
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:-* :-* :-*
Can't wait to see the unit painted up 8)
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Gorgeous minis! great news!
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Absolutely superb. Arguably one of the two biggest gaps in the 28mm market covering the late antique / early medieval period is finally being filled in terms of the importance of the subject. The other being the troops that spearheaded the 7th Century Muslim conquests. Will Aventine be producing a range for the latter at some point?
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Very nice!
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Congratulations Keith and Adam!
The first batch of figures look awesome. Sadly they arrive at the same time I am being laid off. As soon as I'm resituated, this will be my project!
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Latest WIP, nearing the end, just a wait for Steve to get some time to do the transfers.
(https://scontent-lht6-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/71339288_2416309975118781_5066694797931053056_o.jpg?_nc_cat=102&_nc_oc=AQkYZSIRks7s-A7v4wEjO4xfny1gjk7TSu-xWI_Yxtt3i2vBgNBIHWw1ZYaEAlP_k5Q&_nc_ht=scontent-lht6-1.xx&oh=1c5bf05d4d7c0f9215f611d318e268ad&oe=5E0B2FC0)
(https://scontent-lht6-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/70675305_2416309988452113_12483580143861760_o.jpg?_nc_cat=102&_nc_oc=AQkOWu2_d9dkEsnV2l_V1T65RRCC4tDls1oTWdXGXKp-jtVtEXhZAjqo1VH4Z_ygjAA&_nc_ht=scontent-lht6-1.xx&oh=af0b992c22191f906de1146e7c7dbad5&oe=5E3AC3A7)
Around 6 1/2 hours to do that lot.
Cheers
keith
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Very nice indeed....in six and a half hours ?!?!....After six and a half hours I’d still be deciding which paint or brush to use
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Absolutely superb. Arguably one of the two biggest gaps in the 28mm market covering the late antique / early medieval period is finally being filled in terms of the importance of the subject. The other being the troops that spearheaded the 7th Century Muslim conquests. Will Aventine be producing a range for the latter at some point?
I would hope to see pre-Islamic arab types as they were prominent allies on both sides of the Byzantine/Sassanid wars. Would fit right in with Aventine's offerings....
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I would hope to see pre-Islamic arab types as they were prominent allies on both sides of the Byzantine/Sassanid wars. Would fit right in with Aventine's offerings....
Yep, that would be a very interesting addition 8)
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Yep, that would be a very interesting addition 8)
I would very much like to see that - AFTER the Byzantine kavalarrioi and boukellarioi.
I have an early Sassanid army that is a mix of Aventine and A&A (relatively more A&A) and a good start on a late Sassanid army (mostly Aventine). I can't wait to get the Byzantine lead in hand.
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What period is early Byzantium; 4th century? A little later?
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Brilliant figures. There would also have good potential for fantasy. For Tolkien nuts these could be soldiers of Gondor or with a shield change and a bit of long hair would make nice elves.
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What period is early Byzantium; 4th century? A little later?
These are post Taginae 552AD the next unit will be less armoured and suitable for an earlier start date.
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I think it would be quite fit for Heraklios and even later armies. Early thematic.
Philippe
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Some photos of a unit Adam has finished.
(https://scontent-ams4-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/70976443_2431871290229316_1072550017820000256_n.jpg?_nc_cat=102&_nc_oc=AQl3C37bIL5FOMe2kSiO2T6_jo5D_sBxiFOVIWq9kdhJgfsINGvRDumIFpMQNC9j7wE&_nc_ht=scontent-ams4-1.xx&oh=9324a3a91c637ec37d4a534cdb041ff1&oe=5DF174E2)
(https://scontent-ams4-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/70962952_2431871293562649_3112406093234438144_n.jpg?_nc_cat=108&_nc_oc=AQlf5PjXWOndouuiE38AqUu__inwAUp8EMG-U9f-Ev6tLhZkwnf5y872lKGqriJhkwI&_nc_ht=scontent-ams4-1.xx&oh=982d2752ef1cd9cf9d72074ee7c61503&oe=5DFA7989)
(https://scontent-ams4-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/70685739_2431871303562648_5675701240445534208_n.jpg?_nc_cat=108&_nc_oc=AQnTOyZ9Z04am4yVi3H4rJggrUDI5YNtPZBiv3E8bTW4sYeXH89wXI1nPTGe6q2M1xs&_nc_ht=scontent-ams4-1.xx&oh=31e9446e976a4d5e4550b4e26c5595cd&oe=5E3743E0)
(https://scontent-ams4-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/70245701_2431871406895971_7287350687061508096_n.jpg?_nc_cat=110&_nc_oc=AQnOApGQTYhmzJ8j22_nnJvzdOy2e9naXHW_JY7i0hcGcaUttkmlmH0_kAeNkC5iKUc&_nc_ht=scontent-ams4-1.xx&oh=c7574fe02bb881ea0c15f07370550d1c&oe=5DFE83AD)
Cheers
Keith
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Nice! Are those transfers or is Adam just showing off his painting skills on the shields?
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Transfers from a different range that he bought and has adapted (he removed the cross and painted in the diagonals) they are a bit smaller so he cut around the transfer to the size of the shields to avoid the lines and then painted in the borders. The few that had the edges of the transfer showing he has painted with distressed/missing covers as exposed planking. Steve at LBMS has not had any free time to create any new ones yet bit is hopeful that he will soon.
Cheers
Keith
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Gosh, I do like those!! Can't wait to see how the bucellarii and regular cavalry come out eventually... I'd convinced myself I was never going to paint any more ancients/dark age figures but I may make an exception now!
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.
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Lovely stuff and really inspiring. Particularly like that axe embedded in the shield!
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I see Gondorian infantry... :-* :-* :-*
Milo
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I clicked on this thread by accident, this period is not even my thing but gosh they are so nice and the painted unit looks fabulous :o
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These are truly lovely sculpts and the first time I've ever seen mini's specifically sculpted for Dismounted Bucellarii :-* :-* :-* :-* :-*
Infantry Officers and Standard Bearers to add onto units.
There's a pack of Junior Officers/Standard bearers too but no pic up as of yet.
BYZ05 Infantry officers and standard bearers:
(https://aventineminiatures.co.uk/catalog/images/20191031_123125.jpg)
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BYZ06 photo for now, I will do a better one tomorrow if light permits.
(https://aventineminiatures.co.uk/catalog/images/PB124135.JPG)
Cheers
Keith
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Thanks Kieth 8) 8) 8)
They look fantastic.
As I was saying, it's fantastic to having an Early Byzantine range that's dedicated enough to have dismounted Bucellarii! Highly impressive and actually much needed as the Early Byzantine 'nobility' did dismount to fight as can been seen at the Battle of Solachon 586CE to mention but one.
Scroll half way down the Wiki page:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Solachon (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Solachon)
If anyone wants to read more I can highly recommend buying a copy of John Haldon, The Byzantine Wars which has been back in print for a while:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Byzantine-Wars-John-Haldon/dp/0752445650 (https://www.amazon.co.uk/Byzantine-Wars-John-Haldon/dp/0752445650)
The book concentrates on the military efforts of the Byzantine Empire and is chock full of very useful diagrams of how the battles went. almost a step by step in as far as we can understand.
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Infantry Officers and Standard Bearers to add onto units.
There's a pack of Junior Officers/Standard bearers too but no pic up as of yet.
BYZ05 Infantry officers and standard bearers:
(https://aventineminiatures.co.uk/catalog/images/20191031_123125.jpg)
Might be to do with the combination of armours but something looks wrong with the proportions of the right arms in that photo ...
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Yes, was thinking the same. Looks a little Gorilla like on the pictures. Having a fair few Aventine figures I can attest to their usual great quality, so it's hopefully the pictures which don't do the figures justice.
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In truth I think the arm is a tad too long myself but it doesn't look bad once in a unit. The effect is heightened by the left arm being bent to hold the shield, I have mine painted up and I am happy with how it works.
(https://scontent-lht6-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/74609442_2545436625539448_5866614344933965824_o.jpg?_nc_cat=102&_nc_oc=AQlmaYo0u7wqKpHnv3j2ta6F7VmCUMpCW4hlvkIc6UVR_UM_k6TFR_yE7UcV9KUf4TE&_nc_ht=scontent-lht6-1.xx&oh=00ed11d0bc45ab40a973c9d39d363a66&oe=5E470058)
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They look fine to me Keith.
As you say, once they are 'sitting' in a unit you would have to be eagle eyed to notice.
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Now you say that, I guess I can agree with it, but I did not notice it until you pointed it out....
I'm not sure that i will continue to notice it.
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Oh boy.......
BYZ11 Kneeling spearmen
There is no image of the kneeling pack as of yet- I'll post one ASAP.
BYZ10 Infantry with shield held high
(https://aventineminiatures.co.uk/catalog/images/BYZ10.jpg)
BYZ09 Infantry with shield arm down 2
(https://aventineminiatures.co.uk/catalog/images/byz09.jpg)
BYZ08 Infantry with shield arm down 1
(https://aventineminiatures.co.uk/catalog/images/BYZ08.jpg)
BYZ07 Infantry command 3
(https://aventineminiatures.co.uk/catalog/images/BYZ07.jpg)
Beauties!!
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Beautiful!
You should enlarge the time scope: these could be up to VIIth century at least; along with dismounted German nobles of the time (Lombards, franks).
Philippe
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Beautiful!
You should enlarge the time scope: these could be up to VIIth century at least; along with dismounted German nobles of the time (Lombards, franks).
Philippe
I thought Heraclius fought the Sasanians (the Sasanian- Byzantine War) early in the Seventh Century?
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Of course yes he did! The great conflict that put both empires to the bridge of collapse, the real cause of islamic success later on. But I was thinking of early post-egirian times.
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Of course yes he did! The great conflict that put both empires to the bridge of collapse, the real cause of islamic success later on. But I was thinking of early post-egirian times.
I don't have any info on Aventine's plans and I don't know if they would expand the Early Byzantine range beyond the Sasanian-Byzantine Wars.
I hope they do! :)
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Adam and I have talked on the expansion of the range, better to get this section completed and see what we can add to it. The last lot will take the larger shield(the one on the first unit) as well as a round Goth type so lots of options.
Kneeling pose ready tomorrow so we can add units and a shield wall deal.
Cheers
Keith
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Adam and I have talked on the expansion of the range, better to get this section completed and see what we can add to it. The last lot will take the larger shield(the one on the first unit) as well as a round Goth type so lots of options.
Kneeling pose ready tomorrow so we can add units and a shield wall deal.
Cheers
Keith
Thanks Keith. I bet that news has made quite a few folk very happy.
This is probably the most exciting range of mini's I've seen in a long time. The spearmen are the best example of a shieldwall being replicated (with some discipline) in miniature that I've seen!!
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BYZ11 Kneeling pose
(https://scontent-lhr8-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/84568695_2739302822819493_327115034364739584_o.jpg?_nc_cat=102&_nc_ohc=9cbkSc7eweMAX8S8Ce4&_nc_ht=scontent-lhr8-1.xx&oh=dcabb12b49d1499da75c3ec88ef6b57d&oe=5EBC0293)
(https://scontent-lhr8-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/84833555_2739302832819492_4402074687916474368_o.jpg?_nc_cat=102&_nc_ohc=cQr_HjtuWEAAX8sZX0e&_nc_ht=scontent-lhr8-1.xx&oh=429ba08a6c7ff55815a0b8fe96eee910&oe=5F013604)
Unit Deal UD103 the shieldwall
(https://scontent-lht6-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/84741531_2739303202819455_5008721213405528064_o.jpg?_nc_cat=108&_nc_ohc=Kg4h76jAhh0AX-3rQDW&_nc_ht=scontent-lht6-1.xx&oh=da3436c11ad7c9340fed588330ef3502&oe=5EC7714A)
(https://scontent-lhr8-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/84828245_2739303029486139_6727234127860334592_o.jpg?_nc_cat=111&_nc_ohc=eZBtMVjhMosAX8zL9ZO&_nc_ht=scontent-lhr8-1.xx&oh=ed15c99ef89ea9c702e957e935713ee4&oe=5EBEB1E6)
(https://scontent-lhr8-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/84661424_2739303022819473_5134280381826072576_o.jpg?_nc_cat=110&_nc_ohc=wjhLZbNpJskAX83DH5e&_nc_ht=scontent-lhr8-1.xx&oh=f04b57aee02be1addd80385bba991046&oe=5EBD2B76)
I have asked Adam to do the unarmoured spearmen and archers next.
Cheers
Keith
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Thanks Kieth 8) 8) 8)
They look fantastic.
As I was saying, it's fantastic to having an Early Byzantine range that's dedicated enough to have dismounted Bucellarii! Highly impressive and actually much needed as the Early Byzantine 'nobility' did dismount to fight as can been seen at the Battle of Solachon 586CE to mention but one.
Scroll half way down the Wiki page:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Solachon (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Solachon)
If anyone wants to read more I can highly recommend buying a copy of John Haldon, The Byzantine Wars which has been back in print for a while:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Byzantine-Wars-John-Haldon/dp/0752445650 (https://www.amazon.co.uk/Byzantine-Wars-John-Haldon/dp/0752445650)
The book concentrates on the military efforts of the Byzantine Empire and is chock full of very useful diagrams of how the battles went. almost a step by step in as far as we can understand.
Very nice, but unfortunately Haldon suffers from a common flaw in period of lack of non-Roman/Byzantine sources. His work on the battles has issues because of this. We're very fortunate to have easy access to translations from Syriac, Middle Persian, etc.
Interestingly, if you have access to Academia, there is some very interesting work on the Sasanian army coming out of Poland.
For example: A Synopsis of Sasanian Military Organization and Combat Units, Siedlce-Tehran 2018.
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Very nice, but unfortunately Haldon suffers from a common flaw in period of lack of non-Roman/Byzantine sources. His work on the battles has issues because of this. We're very fortunate to have easy access to translations from Syriac, Middle Persian, etc.
Interestingly, if you have access to Academia, there is some very interesting work on the Sasanian army coming out of Poland.
For example: A Synopsis of Sasanian Military Organization and Combat Units, Siedlce-Tehran 2018.
Thanks Shahbahraz, I will look into that when I can find the time :)
Keith,
These are a dream come true! :-* :-* :-*
I'm going to have to work out how I'm going to do a four deep rank shieldwall, most likely in units of 28.
Oh, one last thing, will you be doing 'rank and file' archer types for the shieldwall?
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Adam is going to add unarmoured archers along with the unarmoured spear.
We will also be covering the light infantry.
Cheers
Keith
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Adam is going to add unarmoured archers along with the unarmoured spear.
We will also be covering the light infantry.
Cheers
Keith
That's great superb news!
I promised myself that under no circumstances was I going to do more than one project at a time. What can the odd unit of Justinian/Heraclean Byzantines painted in between, just to break the monotony do? :D
Order incoming today mate.
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I like these much better than the previous extra heavy figs.
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I like these much better than the previous extra heavy figs.
The dismounted Bucellarii? I really like them. They look the part.
Also, they're essential for battles such as Solechon when they were forced to dismount to steady the line.
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Atheling
Would you give dismounted bucellarii the large skutatos shield or only the small one? I'm still thinking of the possibility of using these heavies as antesignani or whatever you call first-last lines sub-officers drawn together in front of the main infantry blocks, as was sometimes the case, at least "in the book".
Philippe
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Atheling
Would you give dismounted bucellarii the large skutatos shield or only the small one? I'm still thinking of the possibility of using these heavies as antesignani or whatever you call first-last lines sub-officers drawn together in front of the main infantry blocks, as was sometimes the case, at least "in the book".
Philippe
Personally, for the project I have in mind; large shields.
I'm thinking of doing Solachon 586CE.
There's a wiki article, which while brief isn't too bad and will explain my choice here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Solachon (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Solachon)
I'm going on the John Haldon, The Byzantine Wars book, which I have been told is out of date, which may be fair comment as the last time I used a Justinian army in anger was at the Beyond the Golden Gate Warhammer Historical Campagn Weekend, in Lenton, I think 2005! :)
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I know there is plenty of debate over how long spears were employed, but to me this pose looks awkward. This wouldn't put me off buying the figures as they are absolutely stunning.
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I am interested in what others think of the spear length, I have replaced the cast weapons with wire spears and shortened them to what I think looks far better.
(https://scontent-lhr8-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/86603424_2743915332358242_3244893391795781632_o.jpg?_nc_cat=110&_nc_ohc=-qlP-Mrkv0gAX-NXJUp&_nc_ht=scontent-lhr8-1.xx&oh=6f4ac25dea0924016a9a19fb2d328ffa&oe=5ED16281)
Officers for first unit/block.
(https://scontent-lhr8-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/85176241_2743915325691576_8731399248383311872_o.jpg?_nc_cat=110&_nc_ohc=ck_7mcS0-8AAX8ITdg4&_nc_ht=scontent-lhr8-1.xx&oh=a4783aafc6b146b36c2baef15fa1f1c6&oe=5ECAB476)
Cheers
Keith
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Yes, I think the shorter spears look better (and they might be more historical for this period).
Will we see infantry in a standing pose with upright spear, or foot with alternate protection such as padded, scale, or lamallae armor?
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It's a tricky one.... what do the sources say if anything? ???
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I don't know if there is that many reliable sources around. Primary sources I mean. On the textual side, there is of course Procopius, but he is full of rhetorical disdain for the military detail, while also one-sided for the cavalry-do-the-business faction in his times' military debate. We rarely know from which kind of unit (don't even consider the name of specific units) the infantry he mentions is from. He would speak of spear bearers I suppose (durophoroi). But it has to be verified. For the Heraklian times, one should have a look at Armenian, Syriac as well as Byzantine sources, mostly religious history. Not the kind to be very helpful too.
We also have the later (slightly for some) military tactical manuals which give precise battle formations for the infantry, with spearmen in front, shooters-overhead behind and spear-armed-file-closers. This is for highly trained units however. Was there any available? This is the main question.
The archaeological sources are of much use, if not precisely datable: they show the same kind of short spears as was earlier used by the roman army. However, Germanic dismounted cavalry and maybe bucellarii might keep their kontarion (if the long cavalry spear was already named so) as primary weapons, although this is far from certain. It remains to be proved that the Goths just did that on foot. The framea of old germanic use was one in many weapons of choice for the infantry. And closed ranks shielwall means shoulder to shoulder: try to handle this kind of spear either from over your head or from the flank in such conditions and you'll make a lot of friends amongst your comitatenses!
Philippe
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I don't know if there is that many reliable sources around. Primary sources I mean. On the textual side, there is of course Procopius, but he is full of rhetorical disdain for the military detail, while also one-sided for the cavalry-do-the-business faction in his times' military debate. We rarely know from which kind of unit (don't even consider the name of specific units) the infantry he mentions is from. He would speak of spear bearers I suppose (durophoroi). But it has to be verified. For the Heraklian times, one should have a look at Armenian, Syriac as well as Byzantine sources, mostly religious history. Not the kind to be very helpful too.
We also have the later (slightly for some) military tactical manuals which give precise battle formations for the infantry, with spearmen in front, shooters-overhead behind and spear-armed-file-closers. This is for highly trained units however. Was there any available? This is the main question.
The archaeological sources are of much use, if not precisely datable: they show the same kind of short spears as was earlier used by the roman army. However, Germanic dismounted cavalry and maybe bucellarii might keep their kontarion (if the long cavalry spear was already named so) as primary weapons, although this is far from certain. It remains to be proved that the Goths just did that on foot. The framea of old germanic use was one in many weapons of choice for the infantry. And closed ranks shielwall means shoulder to shoulder: try to handle this kind of spear either from over your head or from the flank in such conditions and you'll make a lot of friends amongst your comitatenses!
Philippe
Is there any reference in the sources to how the infantry were to be (ideally) used on the battlefield? That might give us a clue?
If they were to ward off cavalry then perhaps this might give us a clue as to the theoretical length of their weapons?
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I have taken the view(rightly or wrongly) that the infantry were just Late Roman pedes until they were found wanting against cavalry. At that point Nares deployed some cavalry to bolster his line(Taginae 552Ad). That was a success so my view is that the longer spears and heavier armour developed after that. For the Early part of this period I intend to use the shorter spears then mix around the mid 6th Century. For later I will stick to the longer jobs.
(https://scontent-lht6-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/86488521_2745971068819335_8808909320583380992_o.jpg?_nc_cat=100&_nc_ohc=-UCso57SPjwAX-rSrxy&_nc_ht=scontent-lht6-1.xx&oh=4a2b7b420ab015da52d45e4e5712bc13&oe=5EC47F74)
Cheers
keith
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There is one very interesting article by Grant Harward that I found on the net:
A defensive offense: infantry tactics of the early Byzantine Army.
You should look at it.
You are right about the late roman tradition, with the peculiarity that it was a kind of swiss knife infantry, when it came to long or middle range fighting. Infantry could throw from heavy spiculum to light plumbatae, including francisca which apparently was a customized weapon. The other issue is about mentions of infantry with both spear and bow, in the later part of the period, but I suspect another classical influence, the "Immortal" syndrome.
Philippe
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There is one very interesting article by Grant Harward that I found on the net:
A defensive offense: infantry tactics of the early Byzantine Army.
You should look at it.
You are right about the late roman tradition, with the peculiarity that it was a kind of swiss knife infantry, when it came to long or middle range fighting. Infantry could throw from heavy spiculum to light plumbatae, including francisca which apparently was a customized weapon. The other issue is about mentions of infantry with both spear and bow, in the later part of the period, but I suspect another classical influence, the "Immortal" syndrome.
Philippe
Thanks Pallard 8)
I've found it, here's a link to the free pdf:
file:///C:/Users/darre/Pictures/MEDIEVAL%20MINIATURES%20PAINTINGS%20&%20PICS/BATTLE%20OF%20DARA%20SASSANIAN%20&%20mIDDLE%20iMPERIAL%20rOME/SASSANID%20PAINTED%20UNITS%20ETC/BYZANTINE%20MILITARY%20HISTORY%20A%20Defensive%20Offense_%20Infantry%20Tactics%20of%20the%20Early%20Byzantine%20Army.pdf (http://file:///C:/Users/darre/Pictures/MEDIEVAL%20MINIATURES%20PAINTINGS%20&%20PICS/BATTLE%20OF%20DARA%20SASSANIAN%20&%20mIDDLE%20iMPERIAL%20rOME/SASSANID%20PAINTED%20UNITS%20ETC/BYZANTINE%20MILITARY%20HISTORY%20A%20Defensive%20Offense_%20Infantry%20Tactics%20of%20the%20Early%20Byzantine%20Army.pdf)
I've printed it off so I can digest it the old fashioned way.
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I have taken the view(rightly or wrongly) that the infantry were just Late Roman pedes until they were found wanting against cavalry. At that point Nares deployed some cavalry to bolster his line(Taginae 552Ad). That was a success so my view is that the longer spears and heavier armour developed after that. For the Early part of this period I intend to use the shorter spears then mix around the mid 6th Century. For later I will stick to the longer jobs.
(https://scontent-lht6-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/86488521_2745971068819335_8808909320583380992_o.jpg?_nc_cat=100&_nc_ohc=-UCso57SPjwAX-rSrxy&_nc_ht=scontent-lht6-1.xx&oh=4a2b7b420ab015da52d45e4e5712bc13&oe=5EC47F74)
Cheers
keith
These look just superb!
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These look just superb!
I know!! :-* :-* :-*
This range has my head spinning in excitement!! o_o 8)
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A couple of pics of the Archers from the Aventine Facebook page:
(https://scontent.flhr2-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/93866618_2894008707348903_5708607931247755264_o.jpg?_nc_cat=107&_nc_sid=8024bb&_nc_oc=AQlFsbQsPROTRVnEuKWMk853DFQa-4V9-q2ckxYPRT81z4yC75n5yYECN7RwbOIcHjQ&_nc_ht=scontent.flhr2-1.fna&oh=b0a682a413508c4cc8041417063cb9ad&oe=5ECCDE8E)
(https://scontent.flhr2-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/94610255_2894008700682237_5726451347109183488_o.jpg?_nc_cat=108&_nc_sid=8024bb&_nc_oc=AQmJ570OqiqZlPwr-40wkhKW8boma5DWHqsliHIDBYYELTV46cBzD8rsaWSJyrVKhp0&_nc_ht=scontent.flhr2-2.fna&oh=e5c844bbd1e354e9fe6f304e3ebad45b&oe=5ECDD54F)
I'm using mine as the back rank of the Shieldwall which is four ranks deep. Pics when I get to adding a splash of paint as I'm currently working on the hevier infantry.
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Awesome figs! Bad time for me to be unemployed. I'd have most of the infantry done already if I had some cash to spend.
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Awesome figs! Bad time for me to be unemployed. I'd have most of the infantry done already if I had some cash to spend.
Sorry to hear that- not fun.
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Thanks for the sympathies. But actually, in this particular instance, apart from having no cash for hobbies, it's been a nice break
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Thanks Pallard 8)
I've found it, here's a link to the free pdf:
file:///C:/Users/darre/Pictures/MEDIEVAL%20MINIATURES%20PAINTINGS%20&%20PICS/BATTLE%20OF%20DARA%20SASSANIAN%20&%20mIDDLE%20iMPERIAL%20rOME/SASSANID%20PAINTED%20UNITS%20ETC/BYZANTINE%20MILITARY%20HISTORY%20A%20Defensive%20Offense_%20Infantry%20Tactics%20of%20the%20Early%20Byzantine%20Army.pdf (http://file:///C:/Users/darre/Pictures/MEDIEVAL%20MINIATURES%20PAINTINGS%20&%20PICS/BATTLE%20OF%20DARA%20SASSANIAN%20&%20mIDDLE%20iMPERIAL%20rOME/SASSANID%20PAINTED%20UNITS%20ETC/BYZANTINE%20MILITARY%20HISTORY%20A%20Defensive%20Offense_%20Infantry%20Tactics%20of%20the%20Early%20Byzantine%20Army.pdf)
I've printed it off so I can digest it the old fashioned way.
I clicked on the link but it didn't work... is this the same article? https://scholarsarchive.byu.edu/studiaantiqua/vol7/iss1/6/ (https://scholarsarchive.byu.edu/studiaantiqua/vol7/iss1/6/)
As to how we perceive the character of Roman milites, I don't think you can go past Simon James' argument of armies as communities rather than a mechanistic institution: https://traj.openlibhums.org/articles/abstract/10.16995/TRAC1998_14_25/ (https://traj.openlibhums.org/articles/abstract/10.16995/TRAC1998_14_25/). This article addresses some outdated concepts you see constantly cropping up, and if we're going to delude ourselves with "historical accuracy" in wargames then it's a must-read!
These are lovely miniatures from Aventine :) looking forward to seeing more!
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I clicked on the link but it didn't work... is this the same article? https://scholarsarchive.byu.edu/studiaantiqua/vol7/iss1/6/ (https://scholarsarchive.byu.edu/studiaantiqua/vol7/iss1/6/)
Yeah, that's the same one. i must have downloaded the article and linked to that.
As to how we perceive the character of Roman milites, I don't think you can go past Simon James' argument of armies as communities rather than a mechanistic institution: https://traj.openlibhums.org/articles/abstract/10.16995/TRAC1998_14_25/ (https://traj.openlibhums.org/articles/abstract/10.16995/TRAC1998_14_25/). This article addresses some outdated concepts you see constantly cropping up, and if we're going to delude ourselves with "historical accuracy" in wargames then it's a must-read!
I'll give that a read later today- thanks :)
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Very nice infantry!! I will wait for the medium infantry, because super heavy infantry is not suitable for battles Pre 552 A.D. (against Sassanids, Vandals and Goths pre Taginae).
I am looking forward to see the expansion of this range! specially the cavalry
I hope to see Arab allied cavalry (Ghassanid allies or Lakhmid enemies), Bucellarii, horse archers, clibanarii and Gepid cavalry/ Heruls...
any news on these ? :)
Cheers
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I've waited so long for such a range that I am starting to collect Franks, Goths Vandals, Moors and Sassanids!!
It's a dream come true for me :D
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The aim is to make figures that cover the first 2 Byzantines lists in the LADG book, Adam is finishing some more commands and then he will have the unarmoured infantry done. He continues to work away at the range so things have not been slowed by CV19.
Cheers
Keith
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The aim is to make figures that cover the first 2 Byzantines lists in the LADG book, Adam is finishing some more commands and then he will have the unarmoured infantry done. He continues to work away at the range so things have not been slowed by CV19.
Oh dear, not my style of rules really so I only have a vague idea of what would be included in the LADG lists.
Keith, you were right about the Heavy Infantry, they do take some painting due to the supreme level of detail. No bad thing :)
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The aim is to make figures that cover the first 2 Byzantines lists in the LADG book, Adam is finishing some more commands and then he will have the unarmoured infantry done. He continues to work away at the range so things have not been slowed by CV19.
Cheers
Keith
Thanks! I did not know that system, can you provide that list or something similar to give as an idea of what is to come ?
Thanks again :D
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Boukelellaroi
Kavallaroi
Gepids,Herculs/Goths
Scouts light cavalry bow
Huns
Moors
Skoutatoi
Bowmen
Light infantry javelins
Light infantry sling
Cheers
Keith
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Hi
Scots light horse archers? Well, I didn't know that the picts of Alban would travel that far in such numbers!
I'm waiting for the medium infantry too. And curious about how you see them. Two possibilities for me, either you go WRG and Ian Heath ways with that old leather moulded torso thing with pteruges, or you use subarmae vests with or without pteruges, more like later aketons, shown in art from early Empire period . I'd rather go for the latter, although the former would blend better in my existing phalanx maybe. A mix of the two would be most welcome.
The question of super heavies before Taginae is complex. The source of the figures looks like the Strategikon and Agathias, through the Montvert Publication Justinian's Wars. Unfortunately there is no contemporary illustrations of these " mail zaba" long suits.
However, we know that for centuries, the Antesignani, petty officers and file-leaders, could be grouped to form first line extra-armoured shock troops. What they would look like in units such as my Quintani ( ex legio Quinta Macedonica in Egypt) is left for anyone's guess... I'll use the Aventiniani, they are so tempting!
Philippe
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Some useful illustrations are to be found in this book:
Romano-Byzantine infantry equipment
I.P.Stephenson
The History Press - 2006/2011
There is a colour plate of a Justinian medium spearman in Italy with off-white emboidered subarma, spangelhelm, large trousers, francisca and large shield!
This book is pure scolarship with nothing to do with WRG or wargaming traditional representations, like you see in so many mainstream books nowadays (artists find their sources where they can when not militaria specialists), as well as on the internet. Purely from the sources! Very refreshing and accurate.
Philippe
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Boukelellaroi
Kavallaroi
Gepids,Herculs/Goths
Scots light cavalry bow
Huns
Moors
Skoutatoi
Bowmen
Light infantry javelins
Light infantry sling
Cheers
Keith
Well, that has certainly got my juices flowing again! 8)
Boukelellaroi
Kavallaroi
It would be a great boon to have some dismounted Boukelellaroi and perhaps Kavallaroi though the latter may be covered already depending on how the armoured Kavallaroi are modelled(?)
Keep up the stirling work Keith 8)
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Hi
Scots light horse archers? Well, I didn't know that the picts of Alban would travel that far in such numbers!
I'm guessing that should be read as Socii? (Franks)
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That was a typo it has been fixed, Scouts LC Bow.
LOL
Keith
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That was a typo it has been fixed, Scouts LC Bow.
LOL
Keith
Worth a try lol
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Latest additions to the range now ready, unarmoured spearmen.
(https://scontent-lhr8-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/95966977_2932745213475252_1648760287630721024_o.jpg?_nc_cat=101&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_eui2=AeFM-ocXzj4YFvmNS6t0arS1VRE4h-NkCRVVETiH42QJFYg38NK4HEdhc5iTa3moKN-Gno9xq1Gby54rzvMkIoXG&_nc_ohc=MEdzMwofDmwAX-BcM4G&_nc_ht=scontent-lhr8-1.xx&oh=c03b701ce75c38e0154e07bf69d08f73&oe=5EDADE4D)
(https://scontent-lht6-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/95948708_2932745183475255_2067084269695533056_o.jpg?_nc_cat=108&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_eui2=AeEdUuArWteBNq13VI_HP6OT2h6-StrWGaLaHr5K2tYZojUlAHjm3dXCYOMjc3DRykFUMuuDHSqPOvnMXrZ5NUcX&_nc_ohc=yF0tSayGQaoAX8xWXfw&_nc_ht=scontent-lht6-1.xx&oh=19553dcf1bfeab2ced58feac5584cee0&oe=5EDB5522)
(https://scontent-lht6-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/96215246_2932745216808585_2874809065060433920_o.jpg?_nc_cat=108&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_eui2=AeHTRn9IZ30tr4m3U4qZTmMOLFlP5-kawrIsWU_n6RrCsv-iU5bvekPHp5wHnf_JDe1S3o7Q6BrZUhnmmw5EKntf&_nc_ohc=F3_Y1ID-IwoAX_WRuzj&_nc_ht=scontent-lht6-1.xx&oh=7d1fa909b8476e9bf18e9b4207fe1308&oe=5EDBDA79)
(https://scontent-lhr8-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/97002930_2932745460141894_3401703549715873792_o.jpg?_nc_cat=109&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_eui2=AeETh3AXeY09njlxQk12M6p0KY7d4E2NpGYpjt3gTY2kZhCpNsEQDUJJYkQUUAsH1Bbjk3qQBErhgvJvlOGbcEu3&_nc_ohc=o_b6ugAeyO4AX_pKJok&_nc_ht=scontent-lhr8-1.xx&oh=699a044ee5ba386cc81c852e82e427b1&oe=5EDD0A3B)
(https://scontent-lht6-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/96515505_2932745250141915_2529635230814306304_o.jpg?_nc_cat=100&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_eui2=AeEwKmrn14P8cV3PCjY7ycZlpCxlAwv4AFKkLGUDC_gAUtC0k1Mjoky7IVVlAEt_8NjQAx9IGnpmO0YuNXuGkyp3&_nc_ohc=P_pqSMh_TSUAX8gyuOd&_nc_ht=scontent-lht6-1.xx&oh=4146886756c51729399df78989d5de65&oe=5ED92C08)
Next some eastern infantry and more command figures.
Cheers
Keith
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These are stunning Keith!! :-* :-* :-* :-* :-*
Order incoming very, very soon!
I'm still stunned at the level of detail that you guys have managed to get into the extra heavy infantry and the lighter armoured infantry! Not to mention all the extras that came with the Steppe Nobles and Horse Archers!
And yes, they are still on my painting desk! 8)
EDIT: Can't wait to see the Eastern Infantry!! ;D
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:-* very nice sculpts...those nice smooth lines mean they should be a joy to paint...lovely work !
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These are stunning Keith!! :-* :-* :-* :-* :-*
I'm still stunned at the level of detail that you guys have managed to get into the extra heavy infantry and the lighter armoured infantry! Not to mention all the extras that came with the Steppe Nobles and Horse Archers!
And yes, they are still on my painting desk! ...
Mine too. The level of detail is almost overwhelming.
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I love them! order placed :-*
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Two sets of Senior Foot Commands just added along with some standards.
(https://aventineminiatures.co.uk/catalog/images/Aventine%20BYZ22.JPG)
(https://aventineminiatures.co.uk/catalog/images/Aventine%20BYZ23.JPG)
(https://aventineminiatures.co.uk/catalog/images/Aventine%20BYZ(S)%20.JPG)
Cheers and stay safe
Keith
Aventine Miniatures
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These are just amazing Keith :-* :-* :-* :-* :-*
I love the poses, very noble and "Do what I say!". especially the high ranking officer holding the baton.
As usually the detail is astounding. The mail and scale is especially crisp. 8)
The crosses, angel and imperial eagle minutiae on the standards are brilliant. I love the Justinian in relief details on the larger and smaller versions and will be using them all. They are already, in my minds eye, commanding on the table top behind several units.
Tell Adam he is a man with real talent and imagination.
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Opinion shared!
And should we say that the unbearded gentleman with the shoping-ready sword is Narses: brained or cut like me ? take your choice of command!
Philippe
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Wow! The figures look great. And the standards are incredible.
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I ordered the new high commands, two units of the unarmoured spearmen along with enough packs to make them up to units of 28. Also, a large unit of skirmishing archers. They will sit very nicely next to the Armoured Infantry and the Heavily Armoured Infantry! 8)
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Two units of Unarmoured Infantry arrived today and they are even better then they look in the piccies.
Kudos to Keith and Adam for producing such fantastic miniatures in a range that I personally love :)
I'll get some cleaned up, primed and undercoated so you can see what they look like from different angles.
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These are lovely Keith...
I must however resist.... for the moment anyway...
I have to many 3rd century Romans and Sassanids to do...
Do you think you will ever get round to making some Goths...?
All the best. Aly
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Aly
On the list for the cavalry, we will wait and see what Adam produces.
Cheers
Keith
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More Aventine Byzantine goodness:
BYZ27 Standing infantry in heavy armours
(https://aventineminiatures.co.uk/catalog/images/Aventine%20BYZ27.jpg)
BYZ26 Standing Infantry in Extra Heavy Armour
(https://aventineminiatures.co.uk/catalog/images/Aventine%20BYZ26.jpg)
BYZ25 Medium spearmen standing hand high
(https://aventineminiatures.co.uk/catalog/images/Aventine%20BYZ25.jpg)
BYZ24 Medium spearmen standing hand low
(https://aventineminiatures.co.uk/catalog/images/Aventine%20BYZ24.jpg)
Aventine:
https://aventineminiatures.co.uk/catalog/index.php (https://aventineminiatures.co.uk/catalog/index.php)
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Those are veeery nice, I will wait for the next batch of releases to place my order.
But I have a doubt regarding the padded armor, I thought it was more medieval, I have seen that kind of armour in illustrations of the Byzantine army of X century or so. Was it in use in late antiquity ?
Cheers
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Those are veeery nice, I will wait for the next batch of releases to place my order.
But I have a doubt regarding the padded armor, I thought it was more medieval, I have seen that kind of armour in illustrations of the Byzantine army of X century or so. Was it in use in late antiquity ?
Cheers
Padded armour had been in use for centuries. There is a school of thought which suggests that, as well as being used under mail, which is essential for making mail work, some warriors would have worn it exclusively or in conjunction with other armour (e.g. pectorale armour) at least as far back as the 4th century BC if not before. Trouble is, it doesn't survive in the archaeological record and isn't very 'high-status' so is unlikely to be represented in art, etc. So there's no reason why it wouldn't have been used in 6th century Byzantine armies, in my view.
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A quick trawl by Adam for illustrations turned up Heracles in padded armour from Roman Military clothing book 3.
Cheers
Keith
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Padded armour had been in use for centuries. There is a school of thought which suggests that, as well as being used under mail, which is essential for making mail work, some warriors would have worn it exclusively or in conjunction with other armour (e.g. pectorale armour) at least as far back as the 4th century BC if not before. Trouble is, it doesn't survive in the archaeological record and isn't very 'high-status' so is unlikely to be represented in art, etc. So there's no reason why it wouldn't have been used in 6th century Byzantine armies, in my view.
Many thanks for the info, mate ! most useful.
Cheers!
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very nice miniature :-*
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Basically, what Andy and Keith have said. :)