Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => Medieval Adventures => Topic started by: Atheling on August 19, 2019, 08:54:18 AM
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Hi,
The question is quite a simple one.
I can't think of a ruleset that would best reflect the static Wagenburg tactics vs the highly mobile (if somewhat futile) tactics of Sigismund.
Has anyone got any ideas that might help?
Pic included for the fun of it!
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Impetus models the differences between troop types (and accordingly their tactical use) very well.
Probably something that would be spectacular to game, I have thought about Hussites in 6mm with big diorama style bases. But came to the conclusion that it is probably something you would only ever play once.
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Impetus models the differences between troop types (and accordingly their tactical use) very well.
Probably something that would be spectacular to game, I have thought about Hussites in 6mm with big diorama style bases. But came to the conclusion that it is probably something you would only ever play once.
If I do it I'm going to be doing it in 28mm using largely Kingmaker Hussites (Curteys) with a nice dash of Perry's Wars of the Roses/European Armies into the mix.
I'm also looking at other ideas, all Late Medieval, to get me going as I've effectively been out of the hobby for four or five years and I'm in need of getting my blood up again :)
Kind Regards.
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Any mass battle set will work, you'll just have to make some tweaks, as you would for any non typical, and let's be honest, highly subjective, situation.
Hail Caesar is a great toolkit set. Tweak the stats, give a couple of special rules to reflect the tactical preferances, and you're done.
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Any mass battle set will work, you'll just have to make some tweaks, as you would for any non typical, and let's be honest, highly subjective, situation.
Hail Caesar is a great toolkit set. Tweak the stats, give a couple of special rules to reflect the tactical preferances, and you're done.
True. I'm just getting back into the hobby after a hiatus of roughly five years so I'm a little rusty on my rules thus the question :)
Forgive me but I'm not sure exactly what you mean by subjective? The Wagon Tabors in combat?
Kind Regards
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My understanding of the wagon tabors is they were static fortifications - certain rulesets that treat them as mobile fortress don't quite seem right to me. With that in mind.it could potentially lead to quite static games - the Hussites just sit there behind their wagons, waiting for the enemy to hopelessly throw themselves against them.
Though one way round this would be to use interesting smaller scale scenarios, rather than just big defensive pitched battles. Skirmishes, raids, ambushes etc.... Perhaps a Hussites army is attacked whilst on the march, and hasn't time to set up the tabor.
Then again, it's really no different to the ever popular Hundred Years War, where most games you see feature one static, immobile defensive army just sitting there and shooting.
Hail Caesar would get my vote for most large scale games. But it doesn't scale down well, I feel..
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Both DBMM and Field of Glory will work, assuming you like either of those rules.
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Both DBMM and Field of Glory will work, assuming you like either of those rules.
Thanks for the suggestion but not my bag really. :)
My understanding of the wagon tabors is they were static fortifications - certain rulesets that treat them as mobile fortress don't quite seem right to me. With that in mind.it could potentially lead to quite static games - the Hussites just sit there behind their wagons, waiting for the enemy to hopelessly throw themselves against them.
But no different from your basic siege game. I'm thinking spectacle at the moment but I do take your point.
There is at least one example of the Hussites hitching up their war wagons and manoeuvring during active battle but it's probably open to debate whether they were trying to leg it or to fight! Off the top of my head I forget the name of the battle..... o_o
Though one way round this would be to use interesting smaller scale scenarios, rather than just big defensive pitched battles. Skirmishes, raids, ambushes etc.... Perhaps a Hussites army is attacked whilst on the march, and hasn't time to set up the tabor.
Your suggestion of using Hail Caesar might not be a bad one. I'd have to take a look again as it's been a while.
Kind Regards.
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If I do it I'm going to be doing it in 28mm using largely Kingmaker Hussites (Curteys) with a nice dash of Perry's Wars of the Roses/European Armies into the mix.
I'm also looking at other ideas, all Late Medieval, to get me going as I've effectively been out of the hobby for four or five years and I'm in need of getting my blood up again :)
Kind Regards.
Sorted these out for a friend who used them (successfully) in a Swordpoint tournament recently. The kingmaker range is excellent
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But no different from your basic siege game. I'm thinking spectacle at the moment but I do take your point.
Fair enough!
And yes Swordpoint would be well worth a look. From gripping beast.
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Lion Rampant doesn’t have any rules for war wagons in its original format and as it’s aimed at smaller engagements might not be completely suitable, despite being fun. But there are some modifications for it here:
https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/duxrampant/war-wagons-t372.html?sid=786e4496ac854374e1570d334d5b7703
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Sorted these out for a friend who used them (successfully) in a Swordpoint tournament recently. The kingmaker range is excellent
Those are juicy :-*
Steve Hales of LBMS and Victrix, who commissioned the Kingmaker Hussite range sent me some free miniatures many a moon ago before the range was sold off to Curteys so I'm very familiar with the range. without such a range I doubt I would be drawn to the Hussite Wars.
Lion Rampant doesn’t have any rules for war wagons in its original format and as it’s aimed at smaller engagements might not be completely suitable, despite being fun. But there are some modifications for it here:
https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/duxrampant/war-wagons-t372.html?sid=786e4496ac854374e1570d334d5b7703
Thanks Levied Troop, I've played many a game of Lion Rampant and I don't feel the rules are suitable for a massed engagement. Have you had any experience of scaling up the rules?
Kind Regards
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In my opinion all rulesets that allow the wagons to move have got it wrong. That being set, its probably the only way to get a fun competitive game out of them. A scenario is the only way to get it right historically and have a fun game. We made a scenario to refight the battle of Skt. Jørgensbjerg from the Danish peasant rebellion of 1441 some years back using Hail Caesar. The objective for the royallist army was the break the wagon laager.
The wagon laager was represented with the following rules. The warwagons (Kingmaker) are deployed from the start and cannot be moved during the battle. Attackers get no attack/winning bonus against them and they cannot suffer a retreat result from combat. They do abide from both disorder and break results however. Their stamina losses cannot be rallied though so they can be slowly grinded down. Between them were barricades which give +1 to moral to troops defending them and deprives attackers of their attack bonus. The warwagons had clash/sustained 5, short/long 3/2 with crossbows or canon (range 24), moral +4 and 8 stamina. We had three wargaons in a half cirkle on the rebel baseline. They were not brigaded together, so had to be taken out separately.
Hope this can help as inspiration
Cheers
Erik
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Dr. Zombie did an AAR of the battle but sadly the pictures were lost in Photobucketgate
http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=76943.msg941515#msg941515
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Dr. Zombie did an AAR of the battle but sadly the pictures were lost in Photobucketgate
http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=76943.msg941515#msg941515
Photobucket have ruined the pics, at least from my end :(
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Thanks Levied Troop, I've played many a game of Lion Rampant and I don't feel the rules are suitable for a massed engagement. Have you had any experience of scaling up the rules?
I’ve doubled up the army size to 48 points without any rules variations or problems. But I quite like rules that don’t let a battle flow smoothly and build in frustration, and therefore LR’s Activation Test works for me. Some may find it too frustrating having most of the army stay still for a move :)
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I’ve doubled up the army size to 48 points without any rules variations or problems. But I quite like rules that don’t let a battle flow smoothly and build in frustration, and therefore LR’s Activation Test works for me. Some may find it too frustrating having most of the army stay still for a move :)
Agreed. However, it's easy enough to work something similar into most (not all) rules if that's what you're looking for :)
Kind Regards
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The wagon laager was represented with the following rules. The warwagons (Kingmaker) are deployed from the start and cannot be moved during the battle. Attackers get no attack/winning bonus against them and they cannot suffer a retreat result from combat. They do abide from both disorder and break results however. Their stamina losses cannot be rallied though so they can be slowly grinded down. Between them were barricades which give +1 to moral to troops defending them and deprives attackers of their attack bonus. The warwagons had clash/sustained 5, short/long 3/2 with crossbows or canon (range 24), moral +4 and 8 stamina. We had three wargaons in a half cirkle on the rebel baseline. They were not brigaded together, so had to be taken out separately.
My approach is not to treat them as units, but just pieces of immobile terrain - fortifications for units to fight behind.
The rules I'm currently working on are roughly based on Hail Caesar, and all sorts of heavily defended positions (such as barricades, wagon tabors and dense hedges) give the attackers a -1 to hit penalty, the defenders a bonus of 1 to their combat result, and negates all charging bonuses of cavalry. And provide cover. So lets a smaller unit behind it hold out better against stronger, more numerous attackers.
The unit behind it is assumed to be occupying the wagons themselves, filling the gaps, and with men ready to step up and reinforce those in the front line.
I have a few models with handguns and crossbows in the wagons just to look good.
(Not actually Hussites, but I'd treat them in exactly the same way under my system).
(https://i.imgur.com/k8C9KN5.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/dzuzSh1.jpg)
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I think the problem you will always have is that gamers are unlikely to make the same mistakes as the Imperialists especially regrading the composition of the armies. I read several articles on the period which appeared to be heavily biased on Hussite sources however you do have the impression of the Imperialists with a combination of poor morale and command, were almost fighting to the Hussite strengths. That is very difficult to recreate in a game, you would also have to make cavalry choices compulsory to avoid the Imperials fielding just lots of crossbows, maxed artillery with dismounted knight support that worked under WAB!
The Swordpoint rules for Wagons are very similar to WAB , although having rules for movement, the Hussite list implies that the Tabor is in fixed deployment with chains linking the wagons so that the Tabor doesn't move in the game. I had the impression that the wagons were used to blunt the initial assault which would then be countered by waves of halberd armed troops supported by heavy cavalry. Charlie's solution seems as good as any.
I think there were two battles where it was mentioned that the wagons moved Domazlice and Lipany although both of these battles involved opposing Wagenburgs. I am not sure if the wagons were used when they raided neighbouring territory although some of these raids were defeated which might indicate that the wagons did have a weakness if not deployed properly.
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Agreed. However, it's easy enough to work something similar into most (not all) rules if that's what you're looking for :)
Kind Regards
If you are wanting big battles with some uncertainty then I think I would start with Hail Caesar, rather than trying to scale up Lion Rampant. Ultimately they both use a 2d6 activation test, but how it is used both for a unit and across the army are quite different. HC also offers rules for brigades which certainly help the game feel more like a battle, rather than an extended skirmish.
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In Band of Brothers (the Piquet medieval rules) there are rules for war wagons and they seem to work well in the games we have played.
(https://memberfiles.freewebs.com/21/23/78472321/photos/Hussites/Wagenburg03L.JPG)
The War wagons can be mobile but are not an effective fighting unit on the move. Once they are deployed they have no exposed flanks and provide excellent cover for the fighting crews. Cavalry have particular nightmares attacking the wagenburg as they have to succeed in a difficulty dice roll to be able to melee the crews of the wagons. Otherwise they just mill about in front of the wagons getting shot at. It is especially pleasing for the Hussite player if the enemy knights lose their discipline and charge the wagons impetuously!
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I think the problem you will always have is that gamers are unlikely to make the same mistakes as the Imperialists especially regrading the composition of the armies. I read several articles on the period which appeared to be heavily biased on Hussite sources however you do have the impression of the Imperialists with a combination of poor morale and command, were almost fighting to the Hussite strengths. That is very difficult to recreate in a game, you would also have to make cavalry choices compulsory to avoid the Imperials fielding just lots of crossbows, maxed artillery with dismounted knight support that worked under WAB!
Yeah, I agree re: the Imerialists fighting to the Hussite strengths, though obviously, to start with it was all new to them and the sheer moral of being a member of the Chivalric classes played against them psychologically vis a vis the Nobility vs Peasant mentality played against them in a big way.
The Swordpoint rules for Wagons are very similar to WAB
which kind of leads me onto my next question......
With Swordpoint do units have the same tendency to end up fleeing in different directions and at all corners of the battlefield as they did in WAB? Obviously this is something I want to avoid at all costs.
Kind REgards
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I wonder if the Furiso rules might work for this type of battle - while they are aimed 100 or so years later, they have key parts that might help model the differences between the armies. With rules to reflect the impetuous nature of knights, and to reflect different troop qualities, and there easy of command (or not). These are probably the more important things to model than just the combat stats (or shooting stats) which is where WAB starts.
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Hi Atheling,
I am not an expert with Swordpoint, but the game gives bonus'es if units maintain line of battle, so at least at the beginning you tend to keep your units inline, supporting each other.My games have involved mainly Infantry and because of the battle line, fleeing units tend to go directly back however depending on the angle of attack there is the possibility that you could have the wiz bang effect.
Do you remember the old WAB rule 'arrogant pride' which force knights to charge, I think this would definitively cover the imperialists of this era.
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there is the possibility that you could have the wiz bang effect.
Oh..... that's something I want to avoid like the plague! That's the one thing that really drove me crazy with WAB :(
Do you remember the old WAB rule 'arrogant pride' which force knights to charge, I think this would definitively cover the imperialists of this era.
Yeah, this will be factored in.
Kind Regards