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Miniatures Adventure => Colonial Adventures => Topic started by: Cacique Caribe on August 28, 2019, 12:06:13 PM

Title: Any Zanzibar Experts In The House?
Post by: Cacique Caribe on August 28, 2019, 12:06:13 PM
Would any of these CP Models’ 15mm Arab figures pass for Zanzibari raiders (circa 1870-1910)?

https://cpmodels.co.uk/product-category/15mm-ranges/15mm-pulp-adventure/

Or are there any suitable stand-ins in 15mm that you could point me to?

Thanks

Dan
Title: Re: Any Zanzibar Experts In The House?
Post by: FifteensAway on August 28, 2019, 02:04:15 PM
Think of Zanzibar as an Arab outpost along Africa's easts coast.  Thus, Arab figures should fit the bill.  I'm using a lot of Bluemoon's Egyptians from their DDA range - but mostly as unarmed civilians.

That's about as much of an expert as I am.
Title: Re: Any Zanzibar Experts In The House?
Post by: Plynkes on August 28, 2019, 04:10:02 PM
The mummies not so much, nor the ones with machine guns. I'd stick to the guys with swords or muskets.  ;) But otherwise...


My only quibble would be the face-veils, which are much more of a North African than East African thing. Can't recall ever seeing a depiction of a Zanzibari or Swahili "Arab" wearing one.* You just have to decide if that bothers you or not.



*Though of course someone is going to post just such a picture now, and make me look like an idiot.  lol

Title: Re: Any Zanzibar Experts In The House?
Post by: Cacique Caribe on August 29, 2019, 08:46:48 AM
Lol.  Mummies might be a bit too much, I think.  :)

How about these “Armed Natives” from Rebel Minis?

http://www.rebelminis.com/15arna.html

Or how about “Ansar” from Essex Miniatures’ Sudan range?

https://www.essexminiatures.co.uk/collections/15mm-colonial-sudan

Any other 15mm figures out there that could be added to a Zanzibari raiding party?

Also, I wonder if the Blue Moon “15mm” could pass as simply taller fellows when mixed with other 15mm, or if the size disparity in weapons would make that impossible.  Thoughts?

Dan
PS.  I bought these porters a while back too:
http://www.rebelminis.com/15pupo.html
Title: Re: Any Zanzibar Experts In The House?
Post by: Plynkes on August 29, 2019, 09:18:33 AM
I can't tell you what to do. Personally I haven't seen anything in 15mm that is a perfect fit for Zanzibaris. There seems to be quite a lot that is close, but nothing bang on the money. All you can do is decide if it's close enough for you.


Speaking for myself, simply using Arabs doesn't really cut it for me. Not if the models are Bedouin or anything like that. I've never seen a depiction of a Zanzibari wearing one of those "Lawrence of Arabia" style head-cloths. They just don't seem to have worn them down there. Ansar figures are better in many ways, the skull caps and their style of headdress are much closer to East African fashions, but they tended to wear a jibbah and trousers, whereas Zanzibaris wore long robes. Unless you can find something designed to be Zanzibari, you're just going to have to decide which of these problems is the easiest to ignore. So by all means use Arabian Arabs or Ansar, but just realise they aren't quite right.


Other members, such as FifteensAway will have a much better grasp of what is available out there in the scale. 15 mil ain't really my thing.


One thing to bear in mind when you have picked your figures and are painting them, is that there was quite a bit of intermingling with the locals, and adopting of Arab culture by them too. Often, though dressed in Zanzibar fashions these culturally Arabic fellows would look otherwise just like other black Africans of the region. So you might want to paint at least some of your Arabs with dark African skin tones. Not all of them, but some. I think that's a lot easier to get away with in 15mm than larger scales where you have more detail on the faces.

Title: Re: Any Zanzibar Experts In The House?
Post by: Plynkes on August 29, 2019, 09:22:26 AM
Those Rebel Minis guys aren't too bad. Not bad at all, really. I'd paint them a bit browner if it were me, though. They look like white guys cosplaying. A bit pasty-faced for East Africa.  :)

Title: Re: Any Zanzibar Experts In The House?
Post by: Plynkes on August 29, 2019, 10:09:05 AM
Another thought is maybe using North West Frontier tribesmen. Again not perfect, but probably as good as you're going to get.  You'd have to ditch any of them wearing sheep and goatskin coats, mind.


Title: Re: Any Zanzibar Experts In The House?
Post by: FifteensAway on August 29, 2019, 01:09:25 PM
I do have a pretty good knowledge of 15 mm and Bluemoon will work with Essex and other medium to larger 15 mm figures like Irregular and Museum Miniatures but will tower over Peter Pig 15 mm.  Their African tribal figures are really tall even within their DDA range.  For unarmed civilians there are two sources, Bluemoon and Irregular's Colonials range which are large but a bit smaller than Bluemoon.

For knowledge of Zanzibari and most all things colonial, I yield to the superior knowledge of Plynkes.  His responses above give me cause for pause since a bunch of my 15 mm civilians have the face coverings for the females.  Again, as he says, it is a matter of accepting compromise.  Perhaps easier for me because, while history is the inspiration, a fictionalized setting is my goal - just without the fantastical or weird elements so often tossed into the gaming mix.  Unless - maybe - I do a little bit of a lost world game but without dinosaurs and cavemen; that's too much of a stretch for me.  Not for others, obviously!

Knowing you, Dan, I suspect you are going in the direction of something a bit more fantastical, maybe?  Or are you now leaning into history?
Title: Re: Any Zanzibar Experts In The House?
Post by: Plynkes on August 29, 2019, 06:30:21 PM
As far as I can tell, Muslim women covering their faces in Africa is a 21st Century phenomenon. Even head scarves don't really seem to have been a massive part of the various cultures. When I visited Egypt in the 1990s, before all the recent, um, bother, I never saw a single person completely covered in the Arabian or Afghan way, and I didn't see all that many even covering their heads at all.

Hell, you see photos of Muslim women in the horn of Africa in colonial times not even bothering to cover their boobs! Until recently, the idea was that women should dress modestly by the standards of their culture, rather than some universal Islamic standard like we seem to have today. And some places didn't consider knockers flapping about in the wind to be particularly immodest.


The North African tradtion of wearing veils was a Berber thing, and generally restricted to men.  It wasn't anything to do with modesty or Islam either, it was thought to ward off curses and magic. Though no doubt it was pretty handy in a place where the wind is blowing sand everywhere, too.

But hey, if they otherwise fit the bill, I don't see anything wrong with using those veiled figures, Fifteens. Sometimes close enough has to do.

Title: Re: Any Zanzibar Experts In The House?
Post by: OB on August 29, 2019, 07:15:05 PM
Try these.

https://shop.eastridingminiatures.co.uk/colonials-45-c.asp
Title: Re: Any Zanzibar Experts In The House?
Post by: Hupp n at em on August 30, 2019, 04:29:06 PM
Given what you've said Plynkes, would using Ansar heads on Arab bodies be the best kitbash to roughly approximate Zanzibari fashion?
Title: Re: Any Zanzibar Experts In The House?
Post by: Plynkes on August 30, 2019, 04:57:15 PM
Maybe worth it if you are a proper stickler, and if you have the skills and don't mind the wastage, but I think most would just find the nearest thing they like and use that. It's not exactly the crime of the century.

But I think those figures in the link posted by OB may well be what we're looking for. The Baluchis look real nice, and I think two of those figures might be the coastal Arabs. Both of which troop types fit perfectly in a force from that location. Just add some armed porter-style (as opposed to the sort in European uniforms) askari with muskets and you have a nifty Arab force. We may well have found a winner.


Title: Re: Any Zanzibar Experts In The House?
Post by: OB on August 30, 2019, 06:06:02 PM
I seem to remember reading that the ERM figures are a scaled down version of the 25mm Wargames Foundry ones.  How and why I don't know.

Plynkes is quite right they are coastal Arabs.  I have some of these figures and they are really nice, especially the Baluchis, and very affordable.
Title: Re: Any Zanzibar Experts In The House?
Post by: Plynkes on August 30, 2019, 06:11:16 PM
I seem to remember reading that the ERM figures are a scaled down version of the 25mm Wargames Foundry ones.  How and why I don't know.

Definitely seem to be at the very least "inspired by."  That one Baluchi pointing his sword looks very much like a Foundry one that I have in my collection.

Title: Re: Any Zanzibar Experts In The House?
Post by: Cacique Caribe on September 02, 2019, 05:40:45 PM
I typically don’t order figures without photos, so I’m sending ERM an email with a couple of questions about their 15mm Arabs and Baluchi.  Hope to hear back from them soon.

Dan
PS.  Or is the photo on the top of their Colonial page the entirety of the poses?
https://shop.eastridingminiatures.co.uk/colonials-45-c.asp
Title: Re: Any Zanzibar Experts In The House?
Post by: OB on September 02, 2019, 05:50:51 PM
The photo shows a selection of figures from the range.  From memory each code has three variants.
Title: Re: Any Zanzibar Experts In The House?
Post by: Cacique Caribe on September 03, 2019, 08:14:50 AM
My only quibble would be the face-veils, which are much more of a North African than East African thing. Can't recall ever seeing a depiction of a Zanzibari or Swahili "Arab" wearing one.* You just have to decide if that bothers you or not.
*Though of course someone is going to post just such a picture now, and make me look like an idiot.  lol

Just found this of Zanzibar slavers wearing face veils:

https://media.sciencephoto.com/image/c0176830/800wm

And this photo from 1910 with veiled women:

(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/da/5f/a1/da5fa11b85fa78fd798bfda5930b2d31.jpg)

The garments worn by many of these slavers seem to reach almost to the ankles, though clearly not always so:

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/08/Slavery_and_the_slave_trade_in_Africa_%281893%29_%2814754389106%29.jpg)

(http://www.ruimbegrip.nl/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/slaernijafrikaarabie.jpg)

(http://exhibitions.nypl.org/africansindianocean/img/Gallery%20Breakdown/Zanzibar/large/1999176.jpg)

https://collections.rmg.co.uk/mediaLib/395/938/e9946_1.jpg

https://collections.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/254999.html

https://collections.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/254678.html

In any case, extending the length of garments on already robed figures seems like a fairly easy conversion project:

https://balagan.info/how-to-convert-ansar-figures-to-riffi

Dan
Title: Re: Any Zanzibar Experts In The House?
Post by: Plynkes on September 03, 2019, 09:53:20 AM
That last pic isn't really of what gamers classify as "Zanzibaris."  Ujiji is on Lake Tanganyika. Those guys are probably better characterized as "Ruga Ruga."

Well done on finding veil pics. I knew somebody would! Never seen anything like that before. Shows that it isn't always wise to speak in absolutes. :)


That first pic is quite interesting. I wonder if it is based on anything real, or done from the artist's imagination? I only ask because I don't fancy a horse's chance of living very long in Tanganyika. It's nearly impossible to keep horses alive in that region, or so I've read, due to the tsetse fly. The East African Mounted Rifles in the Great War became infantry in quite a short time. Whether we can trust it or not, I'm not sure, but it is a very cool pic, anyway.
Title: Re: Any Zanzibar Experts In The House?
Post by: destofante on September 03, 2019, 03:30:47 PM
I used a few of these:

FZ 133 -- Bornu African Musketman in long robe

http://www.irregularminiatures.co.uk/images6/15mmbornu.jpg

at http://www.irregularminiatures.co.uk/
Title: Re: Any Zanzibar Experts In The House?
Post by: Cacique Caribe on September 03, 2019, 07:31:06 PM
I’ve even spotted some Baluchi tribesmen, to spice things up:

http://www.miniaturefigurines.co.uk/Catalogue.aspx?ScaleID=2&CategoryID=13&SubCategoryID=88

I hope the end up looking something like these fellas here:

(https://omanisilver.com/contents/media/l_omani%20soldiers%20with%20muskets%20swords%20and%20shields.jpg)

(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/e4/f7/fc/e4f7fc90d47375fda12d8e75a1529ed4.jpg)

(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_f1Pt2ynD4L8/SiK3wyEvcqI/AAAAAAAAASg/1El4Twg0Y-U/s400/baluchkhans.%27CHIEFS+OF+BALOCHISTAN+Circa+1900+from+the+living+Races+of+Mankind,NEW+YORK,1902.jpg)

(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/8d/cf/51/8dcf51ba8d888dc6533f0cc914a22695.jpg)

(https://farm6.static.flickr.com/5222/5608924349_7b31214094.jpg)

Also:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=172354&stc=1

Dan
Title: Re: Any Zanzibar Experts In The House?
Post by: FifteensAway on September 04, 2019, 05:15:52 AM
for Plynkes: I seem to recall that in the interior highlands the problem of the tsetse fly was not encountered, or to a greatly lesser degree.  Worthy of some additional research.  That may explain the photo - certainly looks like hilly country.
Title: Re: Any Zanzibar Experts In The House?
Post by: destofante on September 04, 2019, 12:29:16 PM
I’ve even spotted some Baluchi tribesmen, to spice things up:

http://www.miniaturefigurines.co.uk/Catalogue.aspx?ScaleID=2&CategoryID=13&SubCategoryID=88


I have some of these Baluchi in my collection -- they are not "tribesmen", rather regular Indian troops wearing uniform. I guess you could do some creative painting on a 15mm miniature, but they would not "look right" to me for what you have in mind, IMHO.

DF
Title: Re: Any Zanzibar Experts In The House?
Post by: Cacique Caribe on September 05, 2019, 04:02:22 AM
Quote
I have some of these Baluchi in my collection -- they are not "tribesmen", rather regular Indian troops wearing uniform. I guess you could do some creative painting on a 15mm miniature, but they would not "look right" to me for what you have in mind, IMHO.
DF

If this is the case then it’s most unfortunate.  I was hoping that they would be wearing robes instead of uniforms.

Dan
Title: Re: Any Zanzibar Experts In The House?
Post by: italwars on September 06, 2019, 09:34:52 PM
those ones were labelled by the author, James Thiriar a good and reliable Belgian artist, "Zanzibarites"..see also the picts from same artist i posted on this same section ...some arabised type figures are, in my opinion, a good reference:
Title: Re: Any Zanzibar Experts In The House?
Post by: marco55 on September 07, 2019, 03:57:43 PM
Tippu Tip.
Title: Re: Any Zanzibar Experts In The House?
Post by: marco55 on September 07, 2019, 03:59:24 PM
Tippu Tip like a lot of Zanzibari born Arabs was a mixture of Arab/Negro blood.
Mark
Title: Re: Any Zanzibar Experts In The House?
Post by: Cacique Caribe on September 07, 2019, 08:23:59 PM
I imagine that, for posing in those pictures, Tippu and his peers were wearing their finest equivalent of a Western business suit.

Dan
Title: Re: Any Zanzibar Experts In The House?
Post by: marco55 on September 07, 2019, 08:28:01 PM
 lol lol lol.
Mark
Title: Re: Any Zanzibar Experts In The House?
Post by: Cacique Caribe on September 10, 2019, 03:37:25 AM
Marco55

I guess what I’m trying to say is that he might not have worn such silken and stylized garments when trekking about with his warriors.

I could well be wrong, however.

Dan
Title: Re: Any Zanzibar Experts In The House?
Post by: marco55 on September 10, 2019, 09:41:42 AM
I agree. I don't think he was wearing his Sunday's best out there. lol
Mark
Title: Re: Any Zanzibar Experts In The House?
Post by: Plynkes on September 10, 2019, 10:29:40 AM
He was an important and rich man (and even a district governor for the Congo Free State at one point). So while he possibly wouldn't have worn the swankiest Zanzibar fashions in the field, he'd still probably want to impress his followers, so I don't imagine he'd be shabbily-dressed either. It's not as if he'd have to pick up a machete and swing it himself, after all.


Title: Re: Any Zanzibar Experts In The House?
Post by: Cacique Caribe on September 20, 2019, 07:37:37 AM
... So while he possibly wouldn't have worn the swankiest Zanzibar fashions in the field, he'd still probably want to impress his followers

Sounds fair enough to me!

Dan
Title: Re: Any Zanzibar Experts In The House?
Post by: Deflatermouse on September 21, 2019, 12:20:10 PM
IIRC, shortly after I traveled through East Afrika in '95/'96 I read The Last Hero by Peter Forbath.

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/773652.The_Last_Hero

Very enjoyable, if a little embellished.
I also use the 15mm Irregular riflemen as my Zanzibaris.
The Baluchis from ERM are quite good but a bit bigger than some 15's.
I've put a picute of him at the bottom on my pics.

I took a few pictures of Bagamoyo and Zanzibar.
The pics of Bagamayo are the German Bomba and the Custom house. The third  pic is of the Hotel which Emin Pasha fell off the balcony to his death.
Fourth is a pic of Zanzibar The Sultans palace is (IIRC) the Clocktower on the left and the two white triangles are the church on the former site of the slave market.
The fifth is from the inside of the fort.
The sixth is me, having just recovered from Malaria (nearly died).
This was during Ramadan, and quite sweltering. You would walk outside and suddenly realise you are soaking wet, like a bucket of sweat just tossed over us. You didn't even register getting hot.
The seventh is a comparison  pic. The fellow in white is a Baluchi from ERM


Title: Re: Any Zanzibar Experts In The House?
Post by: Cacique Caribe on October 21, 2019, 06:05:37 PM
IIRC, shortly after I traveled through East Afrika in '95/'96 ...

The sixth is me, having just recovered from Malaria (nearly died) ...
This was during Ramadan, and quite sweltering. You would walk outside and suddenly realise you are soaking wet, like a bucket of sweat just tossed over us. You didn't even register getting hot ...


Dear God, man!  That’s such a horrible experience.  So glad you pulled through it.  Not many do once it has taken full hold of you.
Title: Re: Any Zanzibar Experts In The House?
Post by: Smokeyrone on October 30, 2019, 08:48:06 PM
I played against two Kenyan twins (18 yrs old) at a tennis tourney, and my gf and I have kinda taken them under our wing. 

They want to take us to Kenya, and evidently can travel freely through neighboring countries, and Zanzibar.  They have family everywhere a gamer would want to go, including Sudan.    We are thinking its a cant refuse thing, so next summer.....Our The Sword And The Flame fantasy trip is a must!

anyway,they say Zanzibar is a lot "the hood" mixed with "Country Club" living...
Title: Re: Any Zanzibar Experts In The House?
Post by: Digits on October 31, 2019, 08:50:50 AM
I can’t speak for figure ranges but having lived in Oman for a few years which of course was intrinsically linked with Zanzibar after they ousted the Portuguese I assume that the style of dress prevalent in Oman during the period in question is likely To have been heavily influential in Zanzibar.  There are a few articles and references to Omani historical dress around on the net you could try?
Title: Re: Any Zanzibar Experts In The House?
Post by: Cacique Caribe on December 14, 2019, 03:32:21 AM
I assume that the style of dress prevalent in Oman during the period in question is likely To have been heavily influential in Zanzibar.  There are a few articles and references to Omani historical dress around on the net you could try?

Excellent tip.  I’ll look around.  Thanks so much.

Dan