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Miniatures Adventure => Medieval Adventures => Topic started by: Atheling on September 11, 2019, 10:06:17 AM

Title: The Swabian War; Landsknechts Mini's?
Post by: Atheling on September 11, 2019, 10:06:17 AM
As the title of this post suggests I'm looking for miniatures to represent Landsknechts in 1499 at Dornach.

I'm really looking for early evidence of any differences in attire between the two main adversaries.

I'm currently plan to be using the Perry range for my Swiss.

So, what about the Landsknechts? About the only miniatures I've found that are not Perry's is The Assault Group (early) Landsknecht miniatures of which some are featured below:

(https://theassaultgroup.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/ren366.jpg)
(https://theassaultgroup.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/ren364.jpg)
(https://theassaultgroup.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/ren363.jpg)
(https://theassaultgroup.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/ren362.jpg)
(https://theassaultgroup.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/ren361.jpg)

(https://theassaultgroup.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/ren367.jpg)

Are these miniatures are a fair representation of the Landsknecht in 1499? Or, should I be using the Perry ranges with a few conversions?

I'm not at all sure that given the geographical region from which the early Landsknechts were raised at an early date, namely from town local to der Schwyz that there would have been that much of a difference in appearance.

Basically, it's a question that I'm not really qualified to answer so I was wondering if anyone had any advice or opinions on the matter?

I suppose one could also ask if the Perry EA range is a good representation of the Swiss at this point too?
Title: Re: The Swabian War; Landsknechts Mini's?
Post by: Mad Doc Morris on September 11, 2019, 11:10:00 AM
Basically, it's a question that I'm not really qualified to answer so I was wondering if anyone had any advice or opinions on the matter?

I'd say, if based on pictorial evidence, your guess is as good as anyone's. Take another look at the pieces posted in your other thread on the topic. If a miniature meets that appearance, it's most probably good to go. "National fashion" is a can of worms really. Depending on the author's (or artist's) agenda differences were overemphasised or levelled; the same goes for traditionalist fashion vs 'bloated' clothing, once proper and new, once in rags and so on.
That said, Italy's cultural influence on northern Alpine Europe was strong even before 1494. So 'slashed clothes' would have been quite common in 1499, especially in the Confederacy with its strong ties to the South.

For proper 'period' conversions I would look no further than Stuart's blog (https://stuartsworkbench.blogspot.com/). But you already knew that one. ;)
Title: Re: The Swabian War; Landsknechts Mini's?
Post by: Atheling on September 11, 2019, 12:52:21 PM
I'd say, if based on pictorial evidence, your guess is as good as anyone's. Take another look at the pieces posted in your other thread on the topic. If a miniature meets that appearance, it's most probably good to go. "National fashion" is a can of worms really. Depending on the author's (or artist's) agenda differences were overemphasised or levelled; the same goes for traditionalist fashion vs 'bloated' clothing, once proper and new, once in rags and so on.
That said, Italy's cultural influence on northern Alpine Europe was strong even before 1494. So 'slashed clothes' would have been quite common in 1499, especially in the Confederacy with its strong ties to the South.

Yeah, agreed. 1499 is a date in which it's difficult to find visual references in regard to the topic. It's interesting to note that The Assault Group's Italian mini's for the same "period" (argh!) lack said slashes:

(https://theassaultgroup.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/d_2651.jpg)
(https://theassaultgroup.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/d_2542.jpg)
(https://theassaultgroup.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/d_2519.jpg)

It's beginning to drive me up the wall  lol

For proper 'period' conversions I would look no further than Stuart's blog (https://stuartsworkbench.blogspot.com/). But you already knew that one. ;)

Yeah, I'm very aware of Stuart's beautifully crafted blog  8) .  Though 1499 might be a little early for the fashions featured(???)
Title: Re: The Swabian War; Landsknechts Mini's?
Post by: Mad Doc Morris on September 11, 2019, 03:12:21 PM
There are different variants and degrees of 'slashed clothing'. The exuberant style is best documented for professional soldiers from the Holy Roman Empire (at that point including Switzerland). Yet that impression could also be due to a lack of pictorial evidence for military fashion in Italy (and France) before the second or third decade of the 16th century. Indeed, these later depictions show a somewhat toned down fashion.

However, some of these TAG "Italians" look more like 15th century soldiers. Let's not forget that most wargames figures are not based on genuine research but modelled on secondary illustrations or are just fun projects (like the Perrys' totally anachronistic carroccio…).
That's perfectly fine since wargamers aren't reenactors. (And even they have to compromise, always.) So I'd say, the two woodcuts/ engravings you've got so far are a very solid base. Maybe they were printed a couple of years after the event, but both show the soldiers involved in great detail. For contemporaries this depiction was plausible. So, if you want to focus on this conflict, that's your best bet.

Stuart goes to great lengths to get the appearance as seen in his sources right. That's why I mentioned him. But like you said, aspirations to not only find a good representation of the 'period' but accurately depict participants of a certain battle will only drive you up the wall. ;)
Title: Re: The Swabian War; Landsknechts Mini's?
Post by: Oli on September 11, 2019, 04:48:37 PM
I looked at a load of images of Landsknecht at the very start of 1500 a while back and the TAG figures are the closest I have found to Landsknecht for 1499, have a look at some of the contemporary images: http://camisado1500s.blogspot.com/2017/03/wip-early-landsknechts.html
Title: Re: The Swabian War; Landsknechts Mini's?
Post by: tom_aargau on September 11, 2019, 05:56:38 PM
They seem to look very similar. Here two pictures, one from 1513 and one from 1515:
(https://www.historisches-lexikon-bayerns.de/images/3/3f/Artikel_45514_bilder_value_2_schwabenkrieg2.jpg)
(https://www.historisches-lexikon-bayerns.de/images/thumb/5/5c/Artikel_45514_bilder_value_4_schwabenkrieg4.jpg/300px-Artikel_45514_bilder_value_4_schwabenkrieg4.jpg)
Title: Re: The Swabian War; Landsknechts Mini's?
Post by: bluechi on September 11, 2019, 07:26:11 PM
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/13/Schwaben-Schweizerkrieg.jpg


The battle of Frastanz and Calven looks more interesting
Title: Re: The Swabian War; Landsknechts Mini's?
Post by: Condottiere on September 12, 2019, 03:59:55 AM
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/13/Schwaben-Schweizerkrieg.jpg


The battle of Frastanz and Calven looks more interesting

Hale's Artists and Warfare in the Renaissance (https://www.amazon.com/Artists-Warfare-Renaissance-J-Hale/dp/0300048408) covers parts of this woodcut in detail - I highly recommend this book.
Title: Re: The Swabian War; Landsknechts Mini's?
Post by: bluechi on September 12, 2019, 04:16:38 AM
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/77/Freydal_Repro1882_Tafel_240.jpg/519px-Freydal_Repro1882_Tafel_240.jpg

Heinrich von Fürstenberg

This conflict is one of my most historical Interests....i think it was an suprise attack. The swabish force know that the Swiss are there and ignore it. They thougt they waiting for more and it was late in the day.Thats what i found in old Manuskripts. The attack starts 4pm.
Title: Re: The Swabian War; Landsknechts Mini's?
Post by: Atheling on September 12, 2019, 07:38:01 AM
There are different variants and degrees of 'slashed clothing'. The exuberant style is best documented for professional soldiers from the Holy Roman Empire (at that point including Switzerland). Yet that impression could also be due to a lack of pictorial evidence for military fashion in Italy (and France) before the second or third decade of the 16th century. Indeed, these later depictions show a somewhat toned down fashion.

However, some of these TAG "Italians" look more like 15th century soldiers. Let's not forget that most wargames figures are not based on genuine research but modelled on secondary illustrations or are just fun projects (like the Perrys' totally anachronistic carroccio…).
That's perfectly fine since wargamers aren't reenactors. (And even they have to compromise, always.) So I'd say, the two woodcuts/ engravings you've got so far are a very solid base. Maybe they were printed a couple of years after the event, but both show the soldiers involved in great detail. For contemporaries this depiction was plausible. So, if you want to focus on this conflict, that's your best bet.

thanks for that Mad Doc Morris  8). I'm interested to hear your comments about the TAG range looking like 15thC warriors. I know it's a guestimate, but what sort of date would be a good interclation for their late use?

Stuart goes to great lengths to get the appearance as seen in his sources right. That's why I mentioned him. But like you said, aspirations to not only find a good representation of the 'period' but accurately depict participants of a certain battle will only drive you up the wall. ;)

Yep, I'm currently being driven up the wall at a measured pace. Soon to accelerate no doubt  lol.

Thanks for your help  8)
Title: Re: The Swabian War; Landsknechts Mini's?
Post by: bluechi on September 12, 2019, 11:06:20 AM
Maybe 1510/1515 the Fashion changes fast at that time .
Title: Re: The Swabian War; Landsknechts Mini's?
Post by: Condottiere on September 13, 2019, 02:38:38 AM
Yeah, agreed. 1499 is a date in which it's difficult to find visual references in regard to the topic. It's interesting to note that The Assault Group's Italian mini's for the same "period" (argh!) lack said slashes:

(https://theassaultgroup.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/d_2651.jpg)
(https://theassaultgroup.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/d_2542.jpg)
(https://theassaultgroup.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/d_2519.jpg)

It's beginning to drive me up the wall  lol

Yeah, I'm very aware of Stuart's beautifully crafted blog  8) .  Though 1499 might be a little early for the fashions featured(???)

I've had Stuart's blog bookmarked for ages and based on mention, I purchased The King's Servants: Men's Dress at the Accession of Henry VIII by Caroline Johnson (https://www.amazon.com/Kings-Servants-Dress-Accession-Henry/dp/0956267408) from Etsy, but the problem is that his focus is on England and France, not Italy. In the aforementioned book, I noticed that some of the coats, jackets and design of doublet were worn by Italians at least a generation before.

BTW, the cut of the coat on the cover looks similar to this:

(https://scontent.fnyc1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/12193494_1174444395918309_6187485949168144237_n.jpg?_nc_cat=103&_nc_oc=AQnXbxIHphuFKnq1fpwLKKBe3TYG-aE_QjFWftXa5hPqeZbYPzGvFeclHiJRQdYFGrY&_nc_ht=scontent.fnyc1-1.fna&oh=366db67a05346081eafdd9be0416b6e1&oe=5DF85BAE)

Tunics with baggier shoulders with narrow/tight sleeves/cuffs were called Persian style and a modified version survived till the end of the East Roman Empire.

I wanted to cover Italian fashion in the other thread, so suffice to say the unarmored figures are accurate for the late 15th/early 16th Century, more so than the Perry ones. The problem is that they're generic Italian, not based on regional styles. At this point, slashing was probably not as popular as with the Northerners, specifically the Venetians: they went overboard to circumvent sumptuary laws, like in Carpaccio's paintings.

Frescoes in Castello Challant, Issogne (Valle d'Aosta) (1489-1502) (https://www.wga.hu/frames-e.html?/html/m/master/xunk_it/xunk_it3a/index.html)         

(https://www.wga.hu/art/m/master/xunk_it/xunk_it3a/2scene01.jpg)

The Tempest (Giorgione) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Tempest_(Giorgione))

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/8f/Giorgione_019.jpg/800px-Giorgione_019.jpg)

Tiziano Vecellio aka Titian Idyll(1505-08)

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a2/Titian_-_Rustic_Idyll_-_WGA22728.jpg/582px-Titian_-_Rustic_Idyll_-_WGA22728.jpg)

Title: Re: The Swabian War; Landsknechts Mini's?
Post by: Condottiere on September 13, 2019, 03:16:17 AM
I looked at a load of images of Landsknecht at the very start of 1500 a while back and the TAG figures are the closest I have found to Landsknecht for 1499, have a look at some of the contemporary images: http://camisado1500s.blogspot.com/2017/03/wip-early-landsknechts.html
I'd say they're perfect, but the slashing has been toned down, so as to differentiate with the later era Landsknechts. The figures are based off of the Dolnstein sketches in Richards' Landsknecht Soldier 1486-1560, also on your blog, and if you notice they lack some of the bagginess, pleats and slashing shown in the sketches. Also they lack katzbalger...



From page 44 of Hale's Artists and Warfare in the Renaissance: Made for Charles the Bold - Contested Landing of Alexander the Great in Scythia (c.1480)
Title: Re: The Swabian War; Landsknechts Mini's?
Post by: Oli on September 13, 2019, 06:33:14 PM
Condottiere I think TAG got it right with the Katzbalgers. If you look at the images from that post not a single Landsknecht is carrying one. They all have swords with S shaped guards but not the classic Katzbalger. I would guess the style of these S shaped guards quickly changed to the more figure of 8 style guard within a few years.
In 1500 the style seems to look like this:

(https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-dZUDguumVqk/WLct-99R2ZI/AAAAAAAACn0/_6iVS9f8MCwG4B2KZ1D3pWYimg-6YFu-gCLcB/s1600/Lucas%2Bvan%2BLeyden%2B-%2BThe%2BMocking%2Bof%2BChrist%2B1509.jpg)

I agree that the TAG figures do lack slashing, that being said many of the images from the turn of the century do show Landsknecht in more pedestrian doublet and hose. The dagged breeches seemed popular and TAG picked up on that.

They did miss out on the "octopus" sleeves, it would of been great to see some of them modelled:

(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-KPvsOHx6L7U/WLctcdUCjDI/AAAAAAAACmw/6Hi7ydV1eEY37EE9ZIJG8d_Q_XbS4oq0wCLcB/s1600/Zeugbuch%2B1502%2BD.jpg)

(https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-gTL-mS-ClGM/WLctd11naAI/AAAAAAAACm0/0x_UZr9IQ_w-u5mghGWeAHAssPwdXuP3ACLcB/s1600/Zeugbuch%2B1502%2BE.jpg)

(https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-33xbnKHbipQ/WLct6rSGujI/AAAAAAAACnw/GpV6-HTIunUQJlkUya0N16Z9SYY7I1UCQCLcB/s1600/Dolnstein.jpg)
Title: Re: The Swabian War; Landsknechts Mini's?
Post by: Griefbringer on September 16, 2019, 08:42:24 AM
Those octopus sleeves look like they might be a bit challenging as regards sculpting and casting - to survive handling they would probably need to be sculpted as a quite tight bundle partially touching legs for support.
Title: Re: The Swabian War; Landsknechts Mini's?
Post by: Duncan Head on September 16, 2019, 01:42:56 PM
Paul Dolnstein's drawings of landsknechte fighting Swedes date from 1501-02, so the landsknechts are probably about right for the Swabian War - https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Paul_Dolnstein for instance.
 
Judging from discussion of the differences at http://theminiaturespage.com/boards/msg.mv?id=209421 the main difference seems to be katzbalger vs schweizerdolch.
Title: Re: The Swabian War; Landsknechts Mini's?
Post by: Atheling on September 16, 2019, 06:02:12 PM
Judging from discussion of the differences at http://theminiaturespage.com/boards/msg.mv?id=209421 the main difference seems to be katzbalger vs schweizerdolch.

Which is fantastic that TAG have got the katzbalger nailed but it does leave me with a problem if I'm going to go with Swiss that are contemporaneous with the TAG Landskechts.

I know one can't have everything  :). Still, it would be have been very nice!!

Title: Re: The Swabian War; Landsknechts Mini's?
Post by: Mad Doc Morris on September 18, 2019, 05:10:56 PM
Which is fantastic that TAG have got the katzbalger nailed but it does leave me with a problem if I'm going to go with Swiss that are contemporaneous with the TAG Landskechts.

Don't know if Artizan matches in scale. But if so, they have some Swiss in early-ish, toned down attire: LINK (https://www.artizandesigns.com/list.php?man=20&cat=147&page=1)
On the other hand, if it really bothers you, sidearms are easily exchanged (or simply filed down). Have a look at the accessoire packs by Front Rank or the assorted (convertable) swords which come in the Perrys' mercenaries box set.
I guess a major issue in comparison might be the correct use of Swiss and Burgundian crosses. ;)
Title: Re: The Swabian War; Landsknechts Mini's?
Post by: Atheling on September 19, 2019, 06:12:51 AM
Don't know if Artizan matches in scale. But if so, they have some Swiss in early-ish, toned down attire: LINK (https://www.artizandesigns.com/list.php?man=20&cat=147&page=1)
On the other hand, if it really bothers you, sidearms are easily exchanged (or simply filed down). Have a look at the accessoire packs by Front Rank or the assorted (convertable) swords which come in the Perrys' mercenaries box set.
I guess a major issue in comparison might be the correct use of Swiss and Burgundian crosses. ;)

I'd already looked at the Artizan range for Swiss but it's a very small range with very little variation. I remember getting quite excited when they had just finished their Landsknechts and moved onto the Swiss as I was expecting a range of a similar size. Unfortunately that was not to be.

It *might* be possible to mix the Artizan Swiss with the TAG stuff but I'd have to compare both in detail before making my mind up. I'll probably pick up a pack of Artizan Swiss and see what's what.

Agreed re: the FR weapons packs but at £3.25 per pack you don't get much in the way of viable convertible material :(
(https://www.frontrank.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/428.jpg)

Can you think of anyone else who does 28mm weapons packs that might be suitable? I'm thinking Essex perhaps?
Title: Re: The Swabian War; Landsknechts Mini's?
Post by: Condottiere on September 26, 2019, 03:12:43 AM
Condottiere I think TAG got it right with the Katzbalgers. If you look at the images from that post not a single Landsknecht is carrying one. They all have swords with S shaped guards but not the classic Katzbalger. I would guess the style of these S shaped guards quickly changed to the more figure of 8 style guard within a few years.
In 1500 the style seems to look like this:

(https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-dZUDguumVqk/WLct-99R2ZI/AAAAAAAACn0/_6iVS9f8MCwG4B2KZ1D3pWYimg-6YFu-gCLcB/s1600/Lucas%2Bvan%2BLeyden%2B-%2BThe%2BMocking%2Bof%2BChrist%2B1509.jpg)

I agree that the TAG figures do lack slashing, that being said many of the images from the turn of the century do show Landsknecht in more pedestrian doublet and hose. The dagged breeches seemed popular and TAG picked up on that.

They did miss out on the "octopus" sleeves, it would of been great to see some of them modelled:

(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-KPvsOHx6L7U/WLctcdUCjDI/AAAAAAAACmw/6Hi7ydV1eEY37EE9ZIJG8d_Q_XbS4oq0wCLcB/s1600/Zeugbuch%2B1502%2BD.jpg)

(https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-gTL-mS-ClGM/WLctd11naAI/AAAAAAAACm0/0x_UZr9IQ_w-u5mghGWeAHAssPwdXuP3ACLcB/s1600/Zeugbuch%2B1502%2BE.jpg)

(https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-33xbnKHbipQ/WLct6rSGujI/AAAAAAAACnw/GpV6-HTIunUQJlkUya0N16Z9SYY7I1UCQCLcB/s1600/Dolnstein.jpg)

Swords with vertical and horizontal s-shaped guards go back as early as the 1300s (HEMA/BOTN: S hilt guards in the 15th century (http://myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.36095.html)), but are more than likely Katzbalgers when associated with Landsknechts. It's an s-shaped or figure of eight style guard, not one evolving into the other, though . Unlike the Baselard or Falchion, the Katzbalger wasn't an actual sword, but more than likely a name associated with function - http://myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?p=218958#218958 from Katzbalgers.... Looking for info (http://myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.22729.html) - and this might explain why there are so few surviving genuine examples.

A selection from the images in the MyArmoury thread:

(http://myarmoury.com/talk/files/landsnechtschwert002_106.jpg)(http://myarmoury.com/talk/files/katzbalger006_109.jpg)(http://myarmoury.com/talk/files/katzbalger008_205.jpg)(http://myarmoury.com/talk/files/katzbalger007_164.jpg)(http://myarmoury.com/talk/files/katzbalger002_515.jpg)

Can't say if this is genuine: Medieval SWORD KATZBALGER of Mercenary Landsquenet ca 1520 ties ORIGINAL GRIP (https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/medieval-sword-katzbalger-mercenary-1932868221)

(https://thumbs.worthpoint.com/zoom/images1/1/0618/16/medieval-sword-katzbalger-mercenary_1_74b07319b978cfe38104b6c153eb472b.jpg)

Based on what I've presented above, I'd say:

Image 1 - definitely a Katzbalger
Image 2 - either a longsword with a Katzbalger hilt or an exaggeratedly sized Katzbalger. The latter more than likely, as the halberd looks way too big.
Image 3 - can't see the guards.
Image 4 - can't tell in that pic, but Dolnsteins sketchbook is filled with longswords and Katzbalger, depending on the way the sword is worn: more than likely a Katzbalger if worn gunslinger style with part of the hilt resting on the crotch - a double entendre according to Skjelver.

The "octopus" sleeves would be difficult to replicate on figures, so I'd suggest adding strips with lead foil or plasticard. The two part hose, a North Italian or Venetian influence, is accurate, but TAG didn't go far enough.   
 

Title: Re: The Swabian War; Landsknechts Mini's?
Post by: Condottiere on September 26, 2019, 03:35:53 AM
Which is fantastic that TAG have got the katzbalger nailed but it does leave me with a problem if I'm going to go with Swiss that are contemporaneous with the TAG Landskechts.

I know one can't have everything  :). Still, it would be have been very nice!!
One thing not covered in that thread is the Schweizerdegen (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_degen). In addition to longswords, Landsknechts and Reisläufer could also wield various types of messer (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messer_(weapon)). Probably derived from messers, Schweizersäbel (https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/27442) would've been common, though the term originated in the early 20th century. 

French Entry into Naples 1495:

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/85/French_troops_and_artillery_entering_Naples_1495.jpg/1024px-French_troops_and_artillery_entering_Naples_1495.jpg)

Based on the "turbans" and plumage, I'd say the foot in the upper right are Swiss. With some slight alteration, you could use the Early TAG Landsknechts as Reisläufer.
Title: Re: The Swabian War; Landsknechts Mini's?
Post by: LCpl McDoom on December 04, 2019, 04:54:33 PM
For weapons, I believe there's still some last few items (in packs) at Vexilia.

Maybe worth a quick look perhaps - e.g., I used some of ARMI 170 (Scottish swords c.1300) as falchions for late-medieval.

https://www.vexillia.com/mirliton/shop25_weapons.html