Lead Adventure Forum

Miniatures Adventure => Pikes, Muskets and Flouncy Shirts => Topic started by: OB on December 10, 2019, 12:09:17 PM

Title: The Battle of the Curlew Pass-Ireland 1599
Post by: OB on December 10, 2019, 12:09:17 PM
The Battle of the Curlew Pass fought in August 1599 is an interesting encounter. 

It saw what may have been the last successful charge of the traditional Galloglaich and an English cavalry charge up hill across a bog that saved the English army.

It also contributed directly to the Earl of Essex losing his head as its result destroyed his grand strategy for victory in Ireland. Today, it's a little known action. If it's of interest to you I have the full story, as best as I can tell it, on my blog.

https://youdonotknowthenorth.blogspot.com
Title: Re: The Battle of the Curlew Pass-Ireland 1599
Post by: fred on December 10, 2019, 12:40:59 PM
Another really good write up.

Thanks for sharing
Title: Re: The Battle of the Curlew Pass-Ireland 1599
Post by: Baron von Wreckedoften on December 10, 2019, 12:43:09 PM
Once again, an excellent story well told.  Was there any particular reason that English casualties were so much higher than those of the Irish during the peliminary skirmishing?  It seems to be almost a constant theme across all the engagements you have covered so far, and seems to contradict the "popular" (ie erroneous!) view that the Irish were slow to take up "modern" weapons and adapt their tactics to them.
Title: Re: The Battle of the Curlew Pass-Ireland 1599
Post by: Eoin OCnaimhsi on December 10, 2019, 12:48:08 PM
Have been looking forward to the next installment.

Great stuff and well written as always.
Title: Re: The Battle of the Curlew Pass-Ireland 1599
Post by: OB on December 10, 2019, 02:25:35 PM
Thanks very much Fred and Eoin.  I think my next two will be Recruiting the New Irish Army and The New English Army of 1599.

Thank you too Baron.  The English shot were mainly pressed men rather than volunteers and so were less motivated.  They were mainly interested in finding an opportunity to get home.  That might not have impacted as badly as it did if they had not had their wages deducted for every shot they fired.  The latter meant that their marksmanship and weapons handling was greatly inferior to the Irish shot.  They had been actively disincentivised from learning their trade because to do so would make the poorer.

They also only had slightly over half of their men armed with calivers the rest carried muskets. The musket was not suitable for Irish service being too heavy and too slow. 

Mountjoy's reforms of 1599 that I'll write about addressed both of these issues and some others.

The New Irish Army was indeed ground breaking modern at least as far as the foot were concerned.

Title: Re: The Battle of the Curlew Pass-Ireland 1599
Post by: Eoin OCnaimhsi on December 10, 2019, 03:00:39 PM
Horesemen seem absent aby this point from Irish forces. Not that they were fantastic, but it is surprising that they were not made the best use of in the roles they were suitable.

If possible could you in a future post give a bibliography or links for some of your sources. I want to do some reading myself for my project.
Title: Re: The Battle of the Curlew Pass-Ireland 1599
Post by: OB on December 10, 2019, 03:28:28 PM
Yes, it's conspicuous absence isn't it.  They weren't there, nor was O'Donnell.  Clifford didn't face the the full Irish army.  The Irish pike or at least some of them came up in time to fight but the Horse didn't probably because it was such poor cavalry ground.

I'll produce some sort of bibliography post when I've finished the series.  In the meantime where I mention Irish law I'm relying on Fergus Kelly or Nerys Patterson.  For Mountjoy Falls biography of the same name. For Tyrone Hiram Morgan and Micheline Kearny Walsh.  Hayes-McCoy and Falls are old but still interesting as are Canny and DB Quinn. Brendan Bradshaw also.  Clan histories are very worthwhile.  I found great stuff on jstor.

I'd suggest though that you get a copy of James O'Neill's The Nine Years War which is bang up to date excellent scholarship.  It's available in both paperback and hardback and currently is the definitive book on the War.  I think it's a classic-nicely written too.

Hope that helps.
Title: Re: The Battle of the Curlew Pass-Ireland 1599
Post by: Eoin OCnaimhsi on December 10, 2019, 03:55:51 PM
It does indeed! Thank you kindly.

Fair play to you, you have certainly done a solid amount of research.
Title: Re: The Battle of the Curlew Pass-Ireland 1599
Post by: OB on December 10, 2019, 04:01:25 PM
Thanks Eoin.
Title: Re: The Battle of the Curlew Pass-Ireland 1599
Post by: Baron von Wreckedoften on December 11, 2019, 06:20:24 AM
The English shot were mainly pressed men rather than volunteers and so were less motivated.  They were mainly interested in finding an opportunity to get home.  That might not have impacted as badly as it did if they had not had their wages deducted for every shot they fired.  The latter meant that their marksmanship and weapons handling was greatly inferior to the Irish shot.  They had been actively disincentivised from learning their trade because to do so would make the poorer.

Good lord, you couldn't make it up, could you?  At least the 18th Century guys got to take the uniforms they purchased with them when they left the Army.

That really is just....bizarre!!!
Title: Re: The Battle of the Curlew Pass-Ireland 1599
Post by: has.been on December 11, 2019, 07:02:31 AM
Thanks for posting.
Title: Re: The Battle of the Curlew Pass-Ireland 1599
Post by: Romark on December 11, 2019, 09:34:02 AM
I'm enjoying these,thanks for posting  :)
Title: Re: The Battle of the Curlew Pass-Ireland 1599
Post by: OB on December 11, 2019, 04:49:34 PM
Much appreciated lads.
Title: Re: The Battle of the Curlew Pass-Ireland 1599
Post by: Metternich on December 14, 2019, 03:59:33 PM
A very interesting posting; thanks for writing it.
Title: Re: The Battle of the Curlew Pass-Ireland 1599
Post by: OB on December 15, 2019, 08:58:51 PM
Thank you, much appreciated.
Title: Re: The Battle of the Curlew Pass-Ireland 1599
Post by: Stecal on December 17, 2019, 01:56:48 AM
Thank you for relating this little battle.  Inspired me to buy a few books on the subject and reconsider working on my Irish army.
Title: Re: The Battle of the Curlew Pass-Ireland 1599
Post by: OB on December 17, 2019, 09:51:32 AM
You're most welcome Stecal. 

I think my next three posts in the series will be the English Army of 1599/1600 post Mountjoy's reorganisation, Wargaming the Nine Years War and English and Irish Army Nine Years War Lists for Furioso.

I think I'm mainly going to use Hell Broke Loose by James Roach but Furioso caught my attention too.  I hope you find something useful in them.
Title: Re: The Battle of the Curlew Pass-Ireland 1599
Post by: Eoin OCnaimhsi on December 17, 2019, 11:00:45 AM
Looking forward to that OB. I am looking to make a start on my English force in the new year(after I figure out the rest of my pike and how to do Redshanks!) and it will be great to see what you have regarding the English force.
Title: Re: The Battle of the Curlew Pass-Ireland 1599
Post by: Padrissimus on December 17, 2019, 12:15:56 PM
Thanks for posting the link. I read with fascination about the battle. I have studied Catholic persecution in England in some depth as part of my research for my Guy Fawkes' role. As I read, Sir Griffin Markham's name jumped out at me, and I was very happy to learn more about what he had been up to (and like) before his roles in the Earl of Essex's attempted uprising, the 'Spanish Treason' and the two 1603 plots against King James (the Bye Plot or Surprise Treason, and the Treason of the Main).

Your essay makes me want to delve deeper, although I have to admit I am 'behind' in so many areas I intend to study!
Title: Re: The Battle of the Curlew Pass-Ireland 1599
Post by: OB on December 17, 2019, 03:48:07 PM
The next piece should be up on my blog tomorrow Eoin.  I'm just checking a quote before posting.

Thanks Padrissimus.  The Nine Years War seems to have been full of interesting characters and not just the big names.  I'm glad you found my post useful.  I'm probably going to write some mini biographies of some of the personalities involved.