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Other Stuff => General Wargames and Hobby Discussion => Topic started by: 6milPhil on December 31, 2019, 04:34:45 PM

Title: Green Stuff World trademarks "Colorshift"... chaos ensues.
Post by: 6milPhil on December 31, 2019, 04:34:45 PM
Vallejo to rename their products
(https://i.imgur.com/oy0O5T7.jpg)

YouTuber got a copyright take down and an account strike.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qz79dwh_CQw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qz79dwh_CQw)
Title: Re: Green Stuff World trademarks "Colorshift"... chaos ensues.
Post by: tin shed gamer on December 31, 2019, 04:51:02 PM
It's an unfortunate choice of name.
Sounds like some thing you'd need Imodium plus for.

Title: Re: Green Stuff World trademarks "Colorshift"... chaos ensues.
Post by: Skyven on December 31, 2019, 09:30:57 PM
Interestingly, colourshift is a technical term used by artists to describe the darkening of colours as they dry. It implies a poor quality product because what you see as you mix and paint is going to end up darker once it has dryed/cured. Usually seen in student quality paint ranges verses artist/professional ranges, and one of the reasons for the price difference.
Title: Re: Green Stuff World trademarks "Colorshift"... chaos ensues.
Post by: Malebolgia on December 31, 2019, 10:00:49 PM
I think this whole issue is being discussed way too much. Just a company who protects their trademark, like they should. Don't see why it gets so much attention.
Title: Re: Green Stuff World trademarks "Colorshift"... chaos ensues.
Post by: 6milPhil on December 31, 2019, 10:12:53 PM
Well there's only three replies and one is a bum joke.

Title: Re: Green Stuff World trademarks "Colorshift"... chaos ensues.
Post by: von Lucky on January 01, 2020, 12:19:12 AM
I'm more impressed by Alex's signature.
Title: Re: Green Stuff World trademarks "Colorshift"... chaos ensues.
Post by: Coenus Scaldingus on January 01, 2020, 09:35:08 AM
If it is a purely Spanish Trademark (as must be the case, as the phrase "colo(u)r shift", or indeed "chameleon" as added in the video, are too common in English-speaking regions to be trademarked), can it even be enforced in this way? The name should be fair game outside of Spain, or not if the product is purely produced within Spain? No idea how this works, but this reminds me of GW trying to claim "halberd" was something unique they produced.  o_o When searching for "colour shift paint" or alternative spellings, Green Stuff World isn't even the first thing that comes up for any of them, but instead other arts and crafts brands.

It all seems a bit.. shifty.

I'm more impressed by Alex's signature.
lol

I also had no idea his name was, in fact, Vallejo.
Title: Re: Green Stuff World trademarks "Colorshift"... chaos ensues.
Post by: Malebolgia on January 01, 2020, 12:13:14 PM
Well there's only three replies and one is a bum joke.



Yeah, wasn't clear enough with my reply. It was discussed a lot on social media, like Facebook. So not only here :)
Title: Re: Green Stuff World trademarks "Colorshift"... chaos ensues.
Post by: Orctrader on January 01, 2020, 12:19:55 PM
Until I read this I'd never heard of the product.   lol
Title: Re: Green Stuff World trademarks "Colorshift"... chaos ensues.
Post by: Cait Sidhe on January 01, 2020, 02:20:22 PM
Yeah, wasn't clear enough with my reply. It was discussed a lot on social media, like Facebook. So not only here :)

And it should be discussed here so everyone knows what a bunch of scumbags GSW are. Inflicting a copyright strike on a youtuber puts them 1/3 of the way toward having their channel deleted and income stream cut off. Her video is also in no way violating copyright so it's an abuse of the system which should be illegal but youtube doesn't give a shit.

As people have already mentioned Colo(u)r Shift is a term which has existed well before they decided they own it, in fact the trademark is owned by another company in the US, FolkArt, and they only own the trademark in Spain.

They also have form in stealing other people's ideas for their tools which is the main reason I don't ever buy from them despite their nice selection of sculpting and modelling stuff.  :-[ 
Title: Re: Green Stuff World trademarks "Colorshift"... chaos ensues.
Post by: 6milPhil on January 01, 2020, 03:25:54 PM
If it is a purely Spanish Trademark (as must be the case, as the phrase "colo(u)r shift", or indeed "chameleon" as added in the video, are too common in English-speaking regions to be trademarked), can it even be enforced in this way? The name should be fair game outside of Spain, or not if the product is purely produced within Spain?

I think the point is Vallejo is produced in Spain, where GSW are based. It's a matter between the two rather than a third party who was unaware of the actuality. GSW possibly always had the option for a takedown, but it's more of a final step than a first I think.

Yeah, wasn't clear enough with my reply. It was discussed a lot on social media, like Facebook. So not only here :)

Oh okay. When I posted I'd only seen it on reddit. More of a FYI post than a call to pitchforks and flaming torches on my part I assure you.
Title: Re: Green Stuff World trademarks "Colorshift"... chaos ensues.
Post by: Grumpy Gnome on January 04, 2020, 07:09:16 AM
Not everyone uses social media. I left Facebook when I realized too much power had been concentrated into the hands of too few people through what has become something of a monopoly.

The topic seems legitimate news to be discussed here.

I hope GSW moves to have the strike removed from Sword & Steele since there appears to be no malice evidenced in her actions.
Title: Re: Green Stuff World trademarks "Colorshift"... chaos ensues.
Post by: 6milPhil on January 04, 2020, 11:07:29 AM
Strike has been removed and GSW have issued an apology...
Title: Re: Green Stuff World trademarks "Colorshift"... chaos ensues.
Post by: arloid on January 04, 2020, 05:23:18 PM
Strike has been removed and GSW have issued an apology...
Not saying it isn't a step in the right direction but it clearly shows what goes on inside the mind of the company,
that or some random employer not knowing how youtube, reviews and the hobby works was set in charge of take downs...
Title: Re: Green Stuff World trademarks "Colorshift"... chaos ensues.
Post by: Calimero on January 04, 2020, 05:28:24 PM
Until I read this I'd never heard of the product.   lol

same here....
Title: Re: Green Stuff World trademarks "Colorshift"... chaos ensues.
Post by: mcfonz on January 04, 2020, 05:50:43 PM
Not saying it isn't a step in the right direction but it clearly shows what goes on inside the mind of the company,
that or some random employer not knowing how youtube, reviews and the hobby works was set in charge of take downs...

The apology is a bit odd.

They say it wasn't intended but then said their motivation was to allay the backlash... Which suggests they wouldn't have done it if it were not for the backlash implications upon their business.

That said, I find it highly ironic considering their history for not only copying other people's designs but then insisting the people they stole the ideas from ceased making them claiming IP on them...

Karma, does it really exist?
Title: Re: Green Stuff World trademarks "Colorshift"... chaos ensues.
Post by: Coenus Scaldingus on January 04, 2020, 10:13:06 PM
The apology is a bit odd.

They say it wasn't intended but then said their motivation was to allay the backlash... Which suggests they wouldn't have done it if it were not for the backlash implications upon their business.

That said, I find it highly ironic considering their history for not only copying other people's designs but then insisting the people they stole the ideas from ceased making them claiming IP on them...

Karma, does it really exist?
Well, the unfairly reprimanded YouTuber got a lot of free publicity, and Green Stuff World's competitor Vallejo may have had to change the name of their product range, but the word has certainly gotten out that they too now have paints that shift colours.
Green Stuff World hasn't exactly endeared themselves to me, but I wasn't aware of any previous questionable behaviour. Though the irony of a company with that name trademarking a common name to prevent a competitor making products under the same name is rather strong...
Title: Re: Green Stuff World trademarks "Colorshift"... chaos ensues.
Post by: ced1106 on January 05, 2020, 03:02:42 PM
The problem may be the trademark in the first place.

While the trademark is in Spain, the purpose of a trademark in the US is to prevent confusion between similar products, and, yes, hobby paints from one company are similar to another. So, if two companies release paint lines that have the same name, then there can be confusion. GSW trademarked their paint line first. And I would think that if Vallejo had the trademark first, GSW would change the name of their upcoming paint line Now, I'm not familiar with the term, "color shift", but it's entirely possible that the term is such a part of hobby paints that shouldn't have been trademarked in the first place, and thus the trademark would be contestable. Vallejo's letter suggests that they're not contesting the trademark, but, as someone raised in litigation-happy United States, I should hope that they either consulted a few trademark lawyers, or found out how much it would have cost to contest the trademark. A trademark in the United States, btw, doesn't have to be registered, but may be. I don't know Spanish trademark laws, nor if GSW's "color shift" was registered, not that registering would necessarily provide protection.

Interestingly, there's a Madrid Protocol, presumably from Spain, that ruled against the trademark of the nearly 100-year old chewing gum Wrigley's Doublemint in the EU, citing that it lacks an imaginative element. I take it that "color shift" would be even less imaginative...
https://www.business.com/articles/5-trademark-cases-and-what-you-should-learn-from-them/
Title: Re: Green Stuff World trademarks "Colorshift"... chaos ensues.
Post by: ced1106 on January 06, 2020, 11:19:41 PM
More discussion on Dakka, but here's GSW's previous litigious activity.

"Further information has surfaced that hints towards GSW having an established history of patent theft (morally if not legally) and bullying individuals and other companies.

Statement by Tabletop Workshop (English transcript, copypasted without permission)

https://www.facebook.com/TWSshow/posts/2081621968608039?__tn__=K-R&fbclid=IwAR3_2vfkARh_Qot9s2fszSS7sKaHlOYhrNX8qezIGOl9JJI0LdvKbmvvyE0

Quote
Therefore we come now to point 2, the behaviour of Green Stuff World in the past years towards some manufacturers or dealers. I have made some longer telephone calls to get a first-hand description of the following facts:

Between 2010 and 2012 the German modeller Stefan Niehues (https://beesputty.com) developed his so-called "Tube Tool". The basic idea came from experiments with a threaded rod to depict structures on footballers' socks. With his "Tube Tool", he virtually reversed this process to create different structures with grooved plates on modeling pastes. For example for tubes ...

Stefan then sold his "Tube Tool" on his own and from 2013 on also via the German dealers PK-PRO and Battlefield-Berlin, among others.

On 12 March 2014, the owner of Green Stuff World, Israel Soriano Garcia, filed two so-called design patents for modelling tools with the European Union Intellectual Property Office - EUIPO for short - and released the "Roll Maker" tool via his company. This "Roll Maker" tool was an exact 1:1 copy including all dimensions of the "Tube Tool".

But wait! Design patent? What is a design patent?

Wikipedia says about this. "A design patent is an industrial property right that gives its owner an exclusive right to use an aesthetic appearance (shape, colour, form) for certain goods. … ” And very important: "A design right is an unexamined property right. In the registration procedure, the prerequisites of novelty and individual character are not examined, but only formal requirements for registration".

This means that you do not have to be the originator of a product to register this right. Fulfilling certain formalities is enough. The fees for such a registration are also relatively low at about 400-500€ and as luck would have it, both Green Stuff World and the EUIPO are located in the same place: Alicate, Spain.

Following this design registration the following happened. Green Stuff World submitted its design entry to the sales platform eBay, including PK-PRO as the distribution channel for the "Tube Tool". Thus the sale of the "Tube Tool" developed by Stefan Niehues was immediately prohibited there due to copyright infringement.

Of course Stefan turned to Green Stuff World, but neither a reasonable dialogue nor an agreement was reached. As a demonstrable author, Stefan could of course now have gone to court in Alicante, Spain, to enforce his rights. But this would not only have taken several months or even years, but would also have cost several thousand euros in expenses and costs. Even if Stefan himself had previously registered such a design or even applied for a patent. In order to enforce his claims, a lawsuit in Alicate against Green Stuff World would have been necessary in any case.

And all this for an article that initially cost around 20€ and later only 10€, of which Stefan has only sold 750 copies to date. In short: Neither the registration of a design nor a patent would have protected Stefan Niehues from Green Stuff World's action. And a lawsuit abroad would have been out of proportion to the costs and the earnings of his product. But here we are with copyright law and a completely different construction site ...

After Green Stuff World had released their motif punches or leaf punches in July 2016, the German online retailer PKO-PRO decided to include such tools in their product range as well. The inquiry with a Chinese producer showed that in Europe already some customers were supplied with such tools. But the Chinese producer emphasized that he owns a patent on these tools since 2006.

In coordination with PK-PRO, new motifs for the sheets to be punched were then designed, not only to obtain their own products, but also to differentiate themselves from the Green Stuff World punching tools.

At the end of September 2016 PK-PRO officially announced its "PK-Punches" with the help of some photos. The "PK-Punches" were available from October 1st, 2016.

But exactly one day before, on September 30th, 2016, Green Stuff World filed another design application at the European Union Intellectual Property Office. This time, however, the design patent related to the shape of the punches. In other words, not on any sheets that can be punched, but on the haptic shape of the punch, for which the Chinese producer has held a patent since 2006.

Impossible? No, because, as already mentioned, the registration procedure for such a design does NOT examine the requirements of novelty and individual character, but only some formal requirements for registration.

With this design, Green Stuff World shortly afterwards stopped the sales of the "PK-Punches" on eBay and amazon. Because, as already mentioned in the first example, it is completely sufficient on these platforms to assert a claim for copyright infringement or similar. eBay and amazon then blocked the item and, in the worst case, directly the entire marketplace shop of the supplier. Only when the plaintiff - in this case Green Stuff World - withdraws his accusation, would the sales of the PK-Punches have been possible again on eBay. For this, of course, it would have required either a concession or a court case with a verdict.

And as in the first example, such a trial in Alicante, Spain, is associated with considerable costs. In addition, the patent holder of the design applied for by Green Stuff Worlds is the Chinese producer.

What followed, however, were various lawyers' letters between PK-PRO and Green Stuff World for about half a year. Ultimately without result, because at some point Green Stuff World simply stopped contacting us. This cost PK-PRO about 10.000€ in translation and legal fees and of course a lot of time ... Although PK-PRO was able to sell its "PK-Punches" via its own webshop, it could only reach a part of its original customers. And as usual with new releases, the demand for such tools was already covered after half a year had elapsed.

As a reminder again the statement of Green Stuff World published on January 2nd, 2020:

"We are a small family business, this is my hobby and my life, and I am very proud of what has been achieved after many years of hard work..."

Well, I personally got a slightly different impression of the company Green Stuff World during my research. Although Green Stuff World has always remained within the framework of the applicable laws in the cases I researched, I believe that they have consciously taken advantage of the corresponding loopholes in the law and procedures. There is no question that such "hard restraints" are also common in other industries, but legally sound does not automatically mean morally sound. At least for me.

Even the initially very harsh action against Naomi's video, in which a shutdown and warning was issued directly via YouTube, does not fit for me with Green Stuff Worlds' statement: "We would like to apologise again for this serious misunderstanding, for having damaged her channel in some way, and for having made her part of a legal dispute between companies that have nothing to do with her. The shutdown and warning was at the request of Green Stuff World - how could this have been a misunderstanding?

After all these statements, events and my researches I have come to the personal conclusion that I will not buy, use and present any more products from Green Stuff World via the TWS channel and thus recommend and thus advertise you.

I have deleted the two TWS reviews of Green Stuff World - even if one of the videos was the ninth most popular video in the TWS archive. But I gladly accept the loss of views, likes and reach. Furthermore I will remove all links to Green Stuff World from all TWS video descriptions in the next days.

Nevertheless - and I want to emphasize this here - this is my personal opinion and decision. I do not want to call for a shitstorm against or even boycott of Green Stuff World. With this video I only want to show you the result of my research and inform you about backgrounds you might not have had any insight into so far. And so that nobody thinks that I only published this video to get as many YouTube clicks as possible out of the current situation, this video is NOT monetized. That means, no matter how many people watch this video, I don't get one cent of advertising revenue for it.

I also want to avoid any hate comments or further shitstorm against Green Stuff World. Accordingly I have deactivated the comment area below this video and also at my corresponding Facebook postings.

Just take your time to form your own opinion ... and if you want to continue shopping at Green Stuff World and/or present their products, please do so. I definitely don't want to dictate anything to anyone or impose my opinion.

So, that's it from my side regarding Green Stuff World. I hope to see you again next Friday for a more pleasant hobby topic ... See you!

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/60/784030.page
Title: Re: Green Stuff World trademarks "Colorshift"... chaos ensues.
Post by: powerfrog99 on January 10, 2020, 06:27:15 AM
The TWS video gave me some enlightenment  :o
This kind of business model by GSW motivated me to stop considering them when I buy hobby stuff...

Quote: "... the irony of a company with that name trademarking a common name to prevent a competitor making products under the same name is rather strong..."
 
just my 2 cents
Title: Re: Green Stuff World trademarks "Colorshift"... chaos ensues.
Post by: wmyers on January 16, 2020, 02:01:57 AM
Thank you for linking that video. I probably would never have learned oh her channel otherwise.

Watching her follow up video, apparently Vallejo holds the copyright in Spain for Colourshifters while GSW registered the trademark.

I had heard good things about GSW’s service, but after finding this out I think I’ll think more than twice before looking at their products.
Title: Re: Green Stuff World trademarks "Colorshift"... chaos ensues.
Post by: DeRuyter on January 16, 2020, 06:22:11 PM
The Storm & Steel video came up on my feed before I read this thread. Thank you for posting from Dakka very informative. The hilarious part was that in GSW communications with S&S they kept asking if she would review their products!

It is sad that GSW has adopted a cutthroat business model in a niche business supporting a hobby and is really mostly hurting people who are hobbyists themselves and not in it for the money.
Title: Re: Green Stuff World trademarks "Colorshift"... chaos ensues.
Post by: Elbows on January 17, 2020, 07:06:07 AM
I've never purchased anything from Green Stuff World but it's fair to say...I won't be in the future.
Title: Re: Green Stuff World trademarks "Colorshift"... chaos ensues.
Post by: Nordic1980s on January 17, 2020, 11:10:55 AM
Thank you ced1106 for letting us all know. If true, this is evil behaviour by GSW and am reminded negatively of the late 1990s to very early 2000s period when GW did more or less the same. Am appalled, no more purchases from GSW!
Title: Re: Green Stuff World trademarks "Colorshift"... chaos ensues.
Post by: WuZhuiQiu on January 24, 2020, 12:15:35 PM
Now that I'm aware of their existence, I won't be purchasing anything from GSW, especially not their "colour sh!te"...
Title: Re: Green Stuff World trademarks "Colorshift"... chaos ensues.
Post by: wmyers on January 24, 2020, 08:19:27 PM
More discussion on Dakka, but here's GSW's previous litigious activity.

"Further information has surfaced that hints towards GSW having an established history of patent theft (morally if not legally) and bullying individuals and other companies.

Statement by Tabletop Workshop (English transcript, copypasted without permission)

https://www.facebook.com/TWSshow/posts/2081621968608039?__tn__=K-R&fbclid=IwAR3_2vfkARh_Qot9s2fszSS7sKaHlOYhrNX8qezIGOl9JJI0LdvKbmvvyE0

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/60/784030.page

Is the Tabletop Workshop reference to the same named firm that made the medieval houses and castle (that Warlord Games bought)?
Title: Re: Green Stuff World trademarks "Colorshift"... chaos ensues.
Post by: ced1106 on January 25, 2020, 09:00:34 PM
Sorry, no idea. Maybe ask on Dakka or their FB or Youtube page. Thanks!
Title: Re: Green Stuff World trademarks "Colorshift"... chaos ensues.
Post by: beefcake on January 25, 2020, 10:36:41 PM
Someone should trademark Greenstuff, lol
Title: Re: Green Stuff World trademarks "Colorshift"... chaos ensues.
Post by: Sir Barnaby Hammond-Rye on January 29, 2020, 02:45:06 AM
Trademarks can be contested.