Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => Age of Myths, Gods and Empires => Topic started by: mithril on January 12, 2020, 05:05:28 AM
-
i'm working on a greco-roman themed army for Kings of War's 3rd edition, using warlord game's plastic early Imperials for the bulk of the army's infantry, and mixing other cultures and eras to fit the unit types (late roman cavalry for example) one of the units for the Kingdoms of Men army list i want to use is the Mammoth, which for my army i figured i'd do a Macedonian Successor War Elephant. i'm just having trouble deciding which manufacturer to get, since it is really hard to gauge size for most of them, and i haven't been able to find any good images showing relative sizes. that some of them don't make it clear whether their elephants are meant to be african or indian doesn't help.
i'm also not that good of a modeller, so ideally i'd like to find one that doesn't require a bunch of greenstuff work to make look good.
anyone willing to chime in about the following?
Gripping Beast's polemarch successor range (this is the one i'm not sure if they are supposed to be african or indian)
Aventine miniatures. (though they don't have the armored indian elephant bodies for sale anymore?)
and of course the warlord games kit.
-
The armoured bodies are being recast and we expect the restock next week.
Cheers
Keith
Aventine Miniatures
-
Curteys have some resin elephants that look good:
https://1stcorps.co.uk/product-category/ancients/elephants/
-
Victrix have some.
https://www.victrixlimited.com/collections/ancients/products/warriors-of-carthage
-
Victrix have some.
https://www.victrixlimited.com/collections/ancients/products/warriors-of-carthage
i am aware, and i'm keeping them as my "Plan-B" if my budget ends up strained when it comes time to buy that part of my army. but those are rather small (they are african forest elephants after all) and since this is a fantasy army, i'd been looking mainly for Indian elephants in order to get a suitably fantasy-esque feel of it towering over the battlefield.
does anyone have esperiance with assembling the kits i mentioned in the original post, who would be willing to chime in on how hard it was and how much work is required for gaps and such?
-
I only have one elephant, so far. It’s a Newline Designs one. It looks like a good sculpt but seems a bit small (not having anything to compare it to it could be just average, large or small!
You could email each potential company you want to buy from and ask them the height of their elephant models to the “whither” (top of shoulder).
(https://www.ancientbattles.com/elephantarchia/elphantarchia_000.jpg)
Here is a good site that shows some very good quality photos of 28mm elephants.
-
The best way to decide if a model is an African or an Indian elephant is to look at the ear size - African elephants have the larger rounded ears. African elephants also tend to be a little larger then the Indian elephant. If you a stickler for historical accuracy you may be hard pressed to find both varieties.
-
The best way to decide if a model is an African or an Indian elephant is to look at the ear size - African elephants have the larger rounded ears. African elephants also tend to be a little larger then the Indian elephant. If you a stickler for historical accuracy you may be hard pressed to find both varieties.
My understanding is that the 'African' elephants available in the ancient world were a sub-species call bush elephants, they were of a similar size or smaller to Indian elephants but less effective (training etc). They were found north of the Sahara. The true 'African' elephants we see today in places like Kenya were not available to the Cathaginian/Successor armies due to distance and perhaps as yet undiscovered.
That means you don't have to worry about 'size' and only worry about scale with different manufacturers offering different 'sizes' of elephant.
-
1st Corps/Curteys do both Indian and the smaller African elephants for the ancient period.
-
My understanding is that the 'African' elephants available in the ancient world were a sub-species call bush elephants, they were of a similar size or smaller to Indian elephants but less effective (training etc). They were found north of the Sahara. The true 'African' elephants we see today in places like Kenya were not available to the Cathaginian/Successor armies due to distance and perhaps as yet undiscovered.
Something like that, yes. Though it's much more complicated. In recent years our understanding of what a "species" is, has changed quite a bit.
There are two sub-species of African elephant, that's correct, but there seem to be hybrids of the two as well... though, the question is: are those two sub-species two species in development, with what we call the "hybrid" as their still living common ancestor or have the two sub-species existed for a while and just recently or occasionally throughout time made contact and produced those hybrids?
Hard to say.
As far as I know it's also not clear if the current habitats of these species were the same during earlier times, 2k years ago they might have had different ranges and could have been more wide-spread than they are now.
So the way I see it, it's likely armies could have had one of the two sub-species or hybrids or all three of those... folks probably would have seen them and considered them the same animal and just thought that the large African sub-species individuals were exceptionally large individuals...
-
There's so many holes in the sources and presumption of the behalf of older researchers. Period accounts mention the search for the largest elephants.
Africa is just a mass of trade routes. It's just not realistic to assume that 'word' of the Blokes Up North with the big cheque books are on the look out for big elephants.
Even if you skip a little further forward or indeed backwards and you have both Egypt and Rome buying in big game from the heart of Africa.
Or simply look North You've items of of North African origin in the archeological record of England and France in the same period.
I prefer the simple and honest approach to trade in the ancient world and pre history .If there's people then there's contact and if there's contact then there's trade and or conflict.Trade is more preferable to conflict. Because beating to death everyone you meet isn't a long term survival solution.
So if theres a Demand and there's money then there will be a supply. Distance isn't an issue if it was we wouldn't drinking tea and eating chocolate.
-
All of the above comment is very sensible, but it overlooks an important point, which also does not appear to have been brought up earlier: African bush / savannah elephants are widely regarded as too aggressive to train, and their use in warfare for this reason seems highly improbable. There is some evidence that they have been used as beasts of burden - supposedly by the Belgians in the Congo - but if true, this would appear to be exceptional. As far as I'm aware, however, there's no explicit evidence that they were not, or could not be, used in a similar way to Indian and African bush elephants, but one would have thought in this case their greater size and ferocity would have been remarked upon. In a fantasy setting, of course, this matters relatively little, if at all, but as the original post was about historical precedents, it's at least worth bringing it into the discussion.
-
as interesting as this discussion is, does anyone have experiences with the Aventine or warlord elephants, and is willing to discuss how well they fit together, the amount of work to remove moldlines, flash, etc?
-
If you want big bulky fantasy elephant go with Gripping Beast or 1st Corps, or the old Vendel even. I dont know what they're supposed to be or how accurate the size compared to the range minis you have but they are pretty cool. Especially the ones with lammelar or quilted armor, Timurid maybe? I use them as either beast of war or even a group of chariots in KoW.
-
I don’t think you should be worried about any modelling woes.
Having been a scale modeller before getting into war gaming figures, I am continually amazed at how so many people are worried about any hobby aspect of building. Things modellers would consider very basic.
Yet, these same people think nothing of painting techniques that modellers would consider highly advanced.
Knowing Victrix kits, their elephants would be very easy to put together. They would probably have no flash and the mould lines would be very minimal.
Metal kits would need more work. Yet, said work would not be that hard.
Old Glory miniatures make elephants, both armoured and unarmoured.
I am not sure how much cost is a factor, but if you’re made of money, you can get firms to build and paint them for you.
-
Hello
I'm in the process of doing a very similar project (hellenistic KoM army for Kings of War). I bought both Warlord's and Aventine's elephants.
They are almost identical in height, but Warlord's is considerably bulkier and has thicker legs. It's also somewhat easier to build, even though three of the legs are separate pieces. Aventine kit requires a bit more filling, and a bit more cleaning. Having said that, I feel the detail is better on Aventine kit, and also - if you'd ever need to field more that one - Aventine range lets you put together several different elephants, compared to Warlords one pose with one set of crewmen. As a matter of fact, I replaced the crew on my second Warlord elephant with Aventine set ;)
I'll try to link some comparison pictures...
https://drive.google.com/file/d/19WV1WeIDH5xoljiX1uWcdnR9GF880nk_/view?usp=drivesdk
https://drive.google.com/file/d/19R38tjFlGIIoMOgJh1UVxm6m6DeIwthb/view?usp=drivesdk
https://drive.google.com/file/d/19PQdaWcHrAjgrIk1FQMEHRpe__Y5ejV_/view?usp=drivesdk
https://drive.google.com/file/d/19LAgNdoDp68qMrMS2PQNmrYM1e6ffWqG/view?usp=drivesdk
-
Matheo, that's very helpful, thanks!
currently only planning one, but my current plan only extends to the initial tourney ready 2300pts. later on i might add more. but by then i hope to have redeveloped my modelling and painting skills a bit (been over a decade since i did anything not in 6mm scale), but i never was very good with using greenstuff. and a big visual centerpeice like an elephant probably isn't the best place to start learning. :)
-
I’m not good with green stuff, either. Professional sculptors constantly relate how it’s like trying to sculpt with gum...
There are far easier products. Like Squadron or Tamiya putty.
-
something tells me that my lack of sculpting skill would get me an ugly mess no matter what putty i use.
i've got a textured roller and some brown stuff on the way for decorative basing purposes, so i'm sure i'll get a chance to experiment some.
-
The Warlord Nellie is rather chunky compared to the Aventine Elephant. I am also looking at the Agema offering. Has anyone built/painted one?
-
There's so many holes in the sources and presumption of the behalf of older researchers. Period accounts mention the search for the largest elephants.
Africa is just a mass of trade routes. It's just not realistic to assume that 'word' of the Blokes Up North with the big cheque books are on the look out for big elephants.
Even if you skip a little further forward or indeed backwards and you have both Egypt and Rome buying in big game from the heart of Africa.
Or simply look North You've items of of North African origin in the archeological record of England and France in the same period.
I prefer the simple and honest approach to trade in the ancient world and pre history .If there's people then there's contact and if there's contact then there's trade and or conflict.Trade is more preferable to conflict. Because beating to death everyone you meet isn't a long term survival solution.
So if theres a Demand and there's money then there will be a supply. Distance isn't an issue if it was we wouldn't drinking tea and eating chocolate.
There are also some recent researches that point at an Ethiopian/Eritrean sources for the Lagid elephants, and basically debunks Polybius and his description of elephant fight at Raphia. I will try to dug it out again. We know from Lagid inscriptions they supplied their elephants from the region we now call Eritrea. Recent study points out they are closer in size to the Africans rather than the North Africans supposedly used by Carthage. Basically as once Professor Dominic Rathbone once said (when he was a young researcher, this points toward my age...) 'La Storia antica e' un gran casino' (in the most comical English accented italian I ever heard in real life...
-
Casino meaning, I'd guess, 'crap shoot'?
-
Casino meaning, I'd guess, 'crap shoot'?
That would do just fine ;)...the specific definition of ”casino” can vary according to the context in which it is used covering everything from mess, disorder and confusion and more literally bordello :o
Loving this thread by the way
-
My goodness. I was unaware of any meaning beyond that of a purportedly high class gambling establishment, whence I derived my guess at that particular slang usage. Now I'm wondering where the English sense comes from, and how it has avoided the distinctly unsavoury associations of the Italian.
Given that this has arisen during a discussion about war elephants in ancient times, BTW, it's pointless trying to predict what other subjects might come up, or what might be learned, however adventitiously.
-
Casino also means mess, because those places tend to be quite noisy... incidentally the term was originally used for noble families hunting lodges, where, it appears, the first high class gambling den started in renaissance (away from the prying eyes of tax collectors... and religious authorities...)...
But Professor Rathbone was referring to the often contradictory sources, perceived and assumed truth, and general confusing state of our understanding... that is basically a mess. Raphia is a case study on that. We have a supposed authoritative source, Polybius. Fine... but Polybius is not contemporary to the battle, and it is also a tad fragmentary. also while he should have been familiar with north African forest elephants and Indian elephants, he probably never saw an Ethiopian one.
Also one thin that bugger me... we have reasonable artistic evidence of Hellenistic elephant armors, so I am fine with them (no the 1st Corps elephants are not fantasy... sorry for that...) but bloody hell... not even a single piece survived! Call it really really selective fate...
-
Interesting. My knowledge if Italian is negligible, but I'm going to make a semi-educated guess, with the benefit of your reference to a hunting lodge, that the literal meaning of casino is 'little house' (diminutive of casa, albeit with an apparent change of gender). Fairly obvious in retrospect, of course, but I would never have suspected the association with mess and disorder, let alone brothels, but then I've never visited an Italian one.
Clearly I'm not up to date with the scholarship on war elephants, and even my knowledge of Polybius is second hand at best, so I had better leave further discussion to those who are more versed in the field(s).
-
the idea that they were getting their small species of african elephants makes a lot of sense to me. you'd pretty much have to go through either egypt or ethiopia anyway, since trying to bring elephants across the saharan trade routes would be a nightmare. i have no trouble believing they were a different species than the big Bush elephants though. perhaps the 'North African' elephant and the extant Forest Elephant of West Africa were related species. or even the same species and the geographic range spread farther east and north in ancient times than today.
unless we can find actual remains it'll stay purely speculation though.
-
Found the article...
https://research.ncl.ac.uk/histos/documents/2016AA08SchneiderAgainontheElephantsofRaphia.pdf
It debunks the idea the Lagid Africans were smaller.... as
perhaps the 'North African' elephant and the extant Forest Elephant of West Africa were related species. or even the same species and the geographic range spread farther east and north in ancient times than today.
We are talking of East African elephants here (Ethiopia is on the east of africa... remember... Italian EAST Africa!), and they are Savannah Elephants (like the big ones we are used to see in TV) and ore no relation (based on DNA studies) to the extinct Forest Elephants used by Carthage.
Also looks at: 'Elephants at Raphia: Reinterpreting Polybius 5.84-5' on JSTOR for another debate.
-
anyone willing to chime in about the following?
Gripping Beast's polemarch successor range (this is the one i'm not sure if they are supposed to be african or indian)
The Polemarch range covers Hellenistic Asian elephants:
Model in center is Polemarch, far left Relic, next Aventine, behind Polemarch Relic African.
http://www.ancientbattles.com/elephantarchia/Raphia_2017_MSF_001.jpg
Aventine miniatures. (though they don't have the armored indian elephant bodies for sale anymore?)
The Aventine range is quite extensive and they just released a brilliant Seleucid armored elephant (which I have yet to complete, but it is excellent).
and of course the warlord games kit.
I do not have the Warlord kit. It looks impossible to me (size and massive armor- like carrying a car on its noggin)- therefore it may be perfect for fantasy use.
-
Armoured Indian elephant bodies back in stock.
The Armoured African ELA03 should be back up very soon, just awaiting stock.
https://aventineminiatures.co.uk/catalog/index.php/cPath/53_33_146 (https://aventineminiatures.co.uk/catalog/index.php/cPath/53_33_146)
Cheers
Keith
Aventine Miniatures