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Miniatures Adventure => Age of Myths, Gods and Empires => Topic started by: tikitang on January 17, 2020, 05:07:52 PM

Title: Warhammer Ancient Battles: Chariot Wars - Rules Question (Camels)
Post by: tikitang on January 17, 2020, 05:07:52 PM
Hi there!

I have a pretty obscure question regarding camels in WAB!

In the main WAB rulebook (1st Edition), on page 9 there is a line saying that camels do not count as "cavalry", as that term refers primarily to horses.

Later on in the book, it says that troops armed with missile weapons, that are riding on either chariots or elephants, get to shoot twice during the Shooting phase of the turn, as they don't have to concentrate on anything else, because they're not cavalry.

In the Chariot Wars supplement, there is a troop-type called Midianite Arabs, which feature in both the Israelite and Assyrian army lists. The rules say that these are two archers riding on a camel. Because there are two archers, my assumption (though this is never clearly stated) is that each of these riders gets to fire once in the Shooting phase, meaning each Midianite Arab model (camel + two riders) fires two shots per turn.

However, on a blog, I saw a guy mention that each of these models (camel + two riders) gets to fire four times in the Shooting phase, presumably because he thought that each of the riders got to shoot twice in the Shooting phase, as they are technically not cavalry, and therefore can concentrate entirely on shooting, much like chariot or elephant-mounted missile troops as mentioned in the main rulebook.

Can anyone clarify either way? Many thanks!
Title: Re: Warhammer Ancient Battles: Chariot Wars - Rules Question (Camels)
Post by: von Lucky on January 17, 2020, 10:59:08 PM
I have the first edition of the WAB rulebook and Chariot Wars supplement in front of me.

I would think they get to shoot three times (rider once, passenger twice) minimum or four times (as explained by you above).

There must be an errata somewhere... but I can't find anything on it online.
Title: Re: Warhammer Ancient Battles: Chariot Wars - Rules Question (Camels)
Post by: tikitang on January 18, 2020, 12:25:24 AM
The only errata I've found concerning the Midianite Arabs from Chariot Wars is that their movement should be 6, not 8. That I found in this document (http://atalaya-vigia.es/docs/FAQWAB.pdf).

Here is a link (http://www.angelfire.com/games/vinceshomepage/VincesImages/Hebrews/Isr_Cam.htm) to the blog I was telling you about. This guy, Vince, seems to be a seasoned WAB player, so I trust that he knows what he's doing, but I cannot for the life of me find out where he got the "four shots" thing from. It's a shame there are no clearer, specific rules about camel combat in the rulebook (that I can find), so I guess he just inferred this idea from the double-shooting rule that elephant/chariot mounted archers enjoy?
Title: Re: Warhammer Ancient Battles: Chariot Wars - Rules Question (Camels)
Post by: von Lucky on January 18, 2020, 12:52:08 AM
My reasoning is that with 2 wounds, the Midianite camel riders are more like chariots and elephants with multiple passengers. So hence there's a strong argument for 4 shots. But you can have camels with one rider, so I would argue this troop type would only get 1 shot per turn. It's unfortunate that line on page 9 about camels not being cavalry, to makes it unclear. I think there's a very strong case for 3 shots, but if your opponent agrees, 4 shots doesn't look to be overpowering them.

I haven't a copy of the second edition rules - they might make it clearer.
Title: Re: Warhammer Ancient Battles: Chariot Wars - Rules Question (Camels)
Post by: wmyers on January 19, 2020, 08:20:18 PM
I just checked the Version 2 rulebook and I don’t even see canals listed.

I’m not sure how many have actually ridden horses and camels, but canals are very rolling in their gait while horses are a LOT smoother to ride.

In real life you’d be lucky to get 1 shot off in a turn time!  Not to mention the rough gait should put archery at -1 compared to that of horse archery.

Elephants are fairly smooth and in an howdah you can stand on a flat platform. Same with a chariot.

Just my 2 pence.

Edit:  looking at the Stone relief from the palace of Ashurbanipal, we see depicted Assyrian troops pursuing Arabs on camels.

The images all show the rear rider turned and firing. 

Perhaps rules where fleeing camel archers can fire would be in order.  1 shot per turn, as horse mounted archers?

All of the front riders are solely engaged in piloting their beasts. Not many are even holding bows. 

Perhaps if stationary, both can fire, if moving just the rear?
Title: Re: Warhammer Ancient Battles: Chariot Wars - Rules Question (Camels)
Post by: tikitang on January 19, 2020, 11:04:44 PM
I just checked the Version 2 rulebook and I don’t even see canals listed.

My understanding of version 2 is that there's a profile for Roman camel-riders in the main rulebook, but no special movement/shooting rules are provided.

What I really want is to get hold of Nigel Stillman, who wrote Chariot Wars, to find out his take!
Title: Re: Warhammer Ancient Battles: Chariot Wars - Rules Question (Camels)
Post by: wmyers on January 20, 2020, 02:51:24 AM
What about asking Rob Broom? 

He was in charge of WAB. He now runs Scarab Games and wrote War and Conquest (WAC) which is widely touted was WAB version 3 or 3rd Edition.

http://warandconquest.co.uk/ (http://warandconquest.co.uk/)
Title: Re: Warhammer Ancient Battles: Chariot Wars - Rules Question (Camels)
Post by: tikitang on January 20, 2020, 08:58:33 AM
Thank you very much, I'll have a go at getting in touch with Rob.
Title: Re: Warhammer Ancient Battles: Chariot Wars - Rules Question (Camels)
Post by: tikitang on January 20, 2020, 10:37:23 AM
Rob did not help. Does anyone know where I can contact Nigel Stillman?
Title: Re: Warhammer Ancient Battles: Chariot Wars - Rules Question (Camels)
Post by: TWD on January 20, 2020, 11:45:01 AM
If it's not in any of the errata I'm not sure you're going to get an "official" answer.
That book was written what, 15 years ago, so it's hardly current and there's no longer any sort of structure that would allow official rulings or updates to be made. So I'm not sure what you're looking for exactly.
If you're going to a tournament, ask the organiser and if you've got a regular opponent(s) work out with them how they should work.

FWIW I'd only let them have one shot, because I think the "not cavalry" rule for elephants and chariots is to reflect the (comparatively) stable platform/howdah that they have. Riding a camel I imagine is much more like riding a horse than standing on a (albeit swaying and bumping) platform.

Last I heard Nigel Stillman was a postman in Newark. Often see him at Partizan.
Title: Re: Warhammer Ancient Battles: Chariot Wars - Rules Question (Camels)
Post by: tikitang on January 20, 2020, 12:07:32 PM
FWIW I'd only let them have one shot, because I think the "not cavalry" rule for elephants and chariots is to reflect the (comparatively) stable platform/howdah that they have. Riding a camel I imagine is much more like riding a horse than standing on a (albeit swaying and bumping) platform.

But, the rules say there are two archers, and the unit has two attacks. It seems odd to only give them one shot. And the rules do specifically say that camel riders don't count as cavalry, even if the real-life experience of riding a camel is more "wobbly" than a horse.

What I'm looking for, ideally, is to talk to Nigel Stillman to see what he intended for those units. I might have to make a trip to Partizan soon...
Title: Re: Warhammer Ancient Battles: Chariot Wars - Rules Question (Camels)
Post by: TWD on January 20, 2020, 01:03:14 PM
Sorry, I meant one shot per rider, so two rather than four, or three.

I can see that Nigel's insight would be interesting (assuming he can remember his intent) but beyond that you'll still have to agree with opponents/organisers how it works in practice.

Also, there's a good chance NS didn't consider the rules, he just gave them two riders because that's how many they had historically and then gave them a rough points cost without even considering the "not cavalry" thing. :)
Title: Re: Warhammer Ancient Battles: Chariot Wars - Rules Question (Camels)
Post by: Tim Haslam on January 20, 2020, 01:43:53 PM
Apparently, research says that the reason depictions show 2 riders to 1 camel is the fact that the Assyrians chased and hounded them across the deserts, thus they had to double up on the camels just to get away.
So it’s possible that some of the guys dismounted to fight. Early motorised infantry! Lol.

I used to love WAB, and played it for years.
I had an Assyrian army with a unit of 2 man camel riders included.
Putting the leadership 10 general behind the camels was a good way to keep them around longer on the battlefield!

Pretty sure it’s just 2 shots per camel model, but that’s still good, they also get 2 attacks.
In the end, they only work playing within the chariot war period, as soon as armies start getting armoured cav, your knackered.

Title: Re: Warhammer Ancient Battles: Chariot Wars - Rules Question (Camels)
Post by: tikitang on January 20, 2020, 02:36:21 PM
Thank you all for your contributions! I think it makes the most sense that they have 2 shots. I think I'll just go for that, unless somebody can make a watertight argument otherwise. The reference to camels not being cavalry is a tad obscure, I admit, and was removed from WAB 2 (apparently) so I guess that's not really going to hold. Plus, there's no specific rules for camels the way there are for elephants and chariots, and furthermore, just to confuse matters, in Chariot Wars, the Midianite Arabs are actually classified as LIGHT CAVALRY!

Finally, given the point value of the unit (16) is roughly double that of a regular soldier, I think it's fair to say that two shots is as much as they deserve.
Title: Re: Warhammer Ancient Battles: Chariot Wars - Rules Question (Camels)
Post by: wmyers on January 21, 2020, 04:58:03 AM
I think your decision is a good one.

I would add that fleeing Camelot with 2 riders still on the camel can shoot while fleeing based upon the Ashurbanipal engravings showing fleeing camel troops (and the rear rider firing back).

Perhaps with a penalty? 

(https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/54ae789fe4b0f583e3d7816a/1561376025304-7V7U1YPQ5QTGPOXCO5N8/ke17ZwdGBToddI8pDm48kIvzlEUFQ25FAoGa1kQt_DR7gQa3H78H3Y0txjaiv_0fDoOvxcdMmMKkDsyUqMSsMWxHk725yiiHCCLfrh8O1z5QPOohDIaIeljMHgDF5CVlOqpeNLcJ80NK65_fV7S1Ub7AD-GECUyTWqZPCefNUghirB54UL11rQkAPjoAdptgzhM-Sjnu6G9qv44EQ4jJbQ/IMG_3296.jpg)
Title: Re: Warhammer Ancient Battles: Chariot Wars - Rules Question (Camels)
Post by: tikitang on January 21, 2020, 09:46:46 AM
fleeing Camelot

This is Chariot Wars we're talking about, not Age of Arthur.  ;)
Title: Re: Warhammer Ancient Battles: Chariot Wars - Rules Question (Camels)
Post by: Tim Haslam on January 21, 2020, 10:04:59 AM
Makes me want to play WAB again  :)
Title: Re: Warhammer Ancient Battles: Chariot Wars - Rules Question (Camels)
Post by: tikitang on January 21, 2020, 11:16:04 AM
Here's another question:

The Midianite Arabs have 2 Wounds. I assumed these represent the two archers on the camel, but I don't know how how precise the relationship between the Wounds value and the actual models in a multi-person model is supposed to be.

The question then is: if the camel-rider unit has taken a wound, should one of the riders be considered out of action, and therefore the unit as a whole only fires 1 shot instead of 2 each turn?
Title: Re: Warhammer Ancient Battles: Chariot Wars - Rules Question (Camels)
Post by: Tim Haslam on January 21, 2020, 11:50:45 AM
Nope,
Just record the odd wound for when you accrue the next.
Naturally you can’t put one wound on each model, every two wounds removes a single model.

Title: Re: Warhammer Ancient Battles: Chariot Wars - Rules Question (Camels)
Post by: tikitang on January 21, 2020, 12:28:04 PM
That's great, thank you!
Title: Re: Warhammer Ancient Battles: Chariot Wars - Rules Question (Camels)
Post by: wmyers on January 21, 2020, 03:41:16 PM
This is Chariot Wars we're talking about, not Age of Arthur.  ;)

Well, they had second thoughts. It really was quite silly...
Title: Re: Warhammer Ancient Battles: Chariot Wars - Rules Question (Camels)
Post by: wmyers on January 21, 2020, 04:20:45 PM
Here's another question:

The Midianite Arabs have 2 Wounds. I assumed these represent the two archers on the camel, but I don't know how how precise the relationship between the Wounds value and the actual models in a multi-person model is supposed to be.

The question then is: if the camel-rider unit has taken a wound, should one of the riders be considered out of action, and therefore the unit as a whole only fires 1 shot instead of 2 each turn?

The “odd exceptional unit” has 2 wounds (p49, Casualties).  Every model with 1 wound is removed from play, when wounded.  Given 2 riders and 2 wounds, replace the camel model with one that has only one rider.

If you don’t have extra figures made this way (most of us don’t) then put a wound marker on or under the model to represent it’s down to only one rider.

It would then only be able to make one attack, as well.
Title: Re: Warhammer Ancient Battles: Chariot Wars - Rules Question (Camels)
Post by: Atheling on January 24, 2020, 01:23:07 PM
Just out of interest, are you playing WAB 1, WAB 1,5 or WAB 2?
Title: Re: Warhammer Ancient Battles: Chariot Wars - Rules Question (Camels)
Post by: tikitang on January 24, 2020, 02:05:51 PM
I'm actually playing Mordheim, using the profiles from WAB: Chariot Wars, to play Biblical skirmishes.
Title: Re: Warhammer Ancient Battles: Chariot Wars - Rules Question (Camels)
Post by: Atheling on January 24, 2020, 04:11:19 PM
I'm actually playing Mordheim, using the profiles from WAB: Chariot Wars, to play Biblical skirmishes.

Ah, not what I was expecting :)

Title: Re: Warhammer Ancient Battles: Chariot Wars - Rules Question (Camels)
Post by: von Lucky on January 24, 2020, 09:04:52 PM
I'm coming around to the one shot per rider, and if the model has a wound, only one shot.

Camels (like in many other rule sets) are their own beasts; not cavalry and not elephants. Nigel didn't explicitly give them their own rules - as there's few armies in WAB that had them.
Title: Re: Warhammer Ancient Battles: Chariot Wars - Rules Question (Camels)
Post by: wmyers on January 24, 2020, 11:13:35 PM
Ah, not what I was expecting :)

Nor I.
Title: Re: Warhammer Ancient Battles: Chariot Wars - Rules Question (Camels)
Post by: wmyers on January 27, 2020, 08:57:41 PM
Reading through the Mordheim rules, I see they have some similarities to the LOTR Strategy Battle game.

I think these rules would do best in a very busy tabletop. Such as a village, fortress, outdoors with widely spaced trees, cliffs, boulders, etc.

How many figures a side are you using?
Title: Re: Warhammer Ancient Battles: Chariot Wars - Rules Question (Camels)
Post by: tikitang on January 27, 2020, 11:49:52 PM
I'm planning a project involving 7 Midianite Arabs (well, 7 camels carrying 13 men between them) and 7 Israelite tribal militia to oppose them. I'll be using a "desert fortress" set up on a very small table area (22" x 30"). Later on I plan to add Philistines and Syrians to the mix.

Follow my blog at https://biblehammer.blogspot.com/ if you want to keep track of my project.  :)
Title: Re: Warhammer Ancient Battles: Chariot Wars - Rules Question (Camels)
Post by: warlord frod on January 28, 2020, 02:23:07 PM
I look foreword to what you are doing here. While I have done little gaming in the period you are dealing with it interests me a great deal having a degree in Biblical Theology and having served in the ministry for over 40 years  :D I will be looking for your battle reports here and on your blog.
Title: Re: Warhammer Ancient Battles: Chariot Wars - Rules Question (Camels)
Post by: wmyers on January 28, 2020, 08:05:29 PM
I'm planning a project involving 7 Midianite Arabs (well, 7 camels carrying 13 men between them) and 7 Israelite tribal militia to oppose them. I'll be using a "desert fortress" set up on a very small table area (22" x 30"). Later on I plan to add Philistines and Syrians to the mix.

Follow my blog at https://biblehammer.blogspot.com/ if you want to keep track of my project.  :)

I checked out your blog.  I like the use of the blue on your figures! 

I think this is an era that is often overlooked but is fascinating! 

Starting with a small number of figures is also a really good idea to get a feel for the rules. 

Using the Warhammer rules (Mordheim, in this case) is a very easy step to get into the larger battles using Warhammer Ancient Battles.

I think, as well, you can form your own house rules, as you see fit and not worry too much on how other authors would have done it. 

Oh, I did ask Rob Broom on the War and Conquest (WAC) Facebook page about the camel archers and there is not anything really written to take into account that.
Title: Re: Warhammer Ancient Battles: Chariot Wars - Rules Question (Camels)
Post by: tikitang on January 28, 2020, 08:36:05 PM
Thanks to you both. I asked Rob too, but he wasn't interested in answering the question, only in trying to sell me War and Conquest, which is understandable.  :)

I did send an email to Nigel Stillman via the Perry Twins about the camel archers, but haven't heard anything back.

I also got in touch with several other WAB authors, and the general consensus seemed to be that they ought to fire two shots, though there was some doubt if they should fire more than one, as they are classed as Light Cavalry (which normally have one rider) and there is no specific rule about firing twice on the profile.

I am inclined to go with two, because surely every model on the table carrying a bow ought to get a chance to fire it during the Shooting phase?
Title: Re: Warhammer Ancient Battles: Chariot Wars - Rules Question (Camels)
Post by: Jjonas on January 28, 2020, 09:02:25 PM
After further review, WAB 1, and 1.5 are no help.  Chariot Wars never had a full erratum.
One place to go is WAB 2, the Lydian list expressly states "counts as two shots" for the camels.

Since the Camelry are given the two wound anomaly (rare in rankers in WAB), I would have to give in that they get two shots. If a wound has been taken then one shot should be removed for that model. (Note that a leader model would get "an extra attack dice" or 3 attacks - not 4, and would have the same missile shots (2 in this rare case) as rank and file).
Title: Re: Warhammer Ancient Battles: Chariot Wars - Rules Question (Camels)
Post by: tikitang on January 28, 2020, 10:56:21 PM
Thanks, Jeff. Just had a look at Armies of Antiquity 2.0 and saw the Arab Camelry from the Lydian list -- that totally confirms it. Two shots it is.
Title: Re: Warhammer Ancient Battles: Chariot Wars - Rules Question (Camels)
Post by: wmyers on January 29, 2020, 05:44:12 AM
I also think they should get one shot when fleeing.  As long as there are still 2 riders.
Title: Re: Warhammer Ancient Battles: Chariot Wars - Rules Question (Camels)
Post by: tikitang on January 29, 2020, 07:18:22 AM
What perplexes me about the camel riders from the AoA 2.0 list is that they appear to cost 25 points, as opposed to 16 in CW. Furthermore, they only have one attack!
Title: Re: Warhammer Ancient Battles: Chariot Wars - Rules Question (Camels)
Post by: Tim Haslam on January 29, 2020, 01:24:52 PM
All points values were different in V2.
Probably to keep it separate from V1 and supplements.
V2 actually had a point formula, and was insular with just the AoA2 army lists compatible.

Earlier versions of WAB usually had 2000pt armies, as I recall V2 meant you needed 2500-3000 for the same amount of figures.

If you just want chariot wars skirmishes I’d recommend the original supplement, not perfect agreed, but a worthy attempt.
Nigel Stillman is a highly regarded historian.
Don’t forget it was one of the first books released for WAB1, a bit of a trail blazer.
Title: Re: Warhammer Ancient Battles: Chariot Wars - Rules Question (Camels)
Post by: tikitang on January 29, 2020, 01:31:04 PM
Thanks for that! Yes, I think I'll just stick with the point values I recognise from version 1.0 and the CW supplement.  :)
Title: Re: Warhammer Ancient Battles: Chariot Wars - Rules Question (Camels)
Post by: seldon on January 29, 2020, 04:50:11 PM
All points values were different in V2.
Probably to keep it separate from V1 and supplements.
V2 actually had a point formula, and was insular with just the AoA2 army lists compatible.

...

I did not know that !!!... NOW I NEED to get a WAB2 ...  curse you !!

For a long time I though I had it only to realize that I only had 1.5 ....  having the point formula out was a smart idea...

As my CLASH armies grow I'm getting to the point where I'll be able to try War & Conquest, which pretty much evolved from WAB...

( how I miss the WAB army books )
Title: Re: Warhammer Ancient Battles: Chariot Wars - Rules Question (Camels)
Post by: Jjonas on January 29, 2020, 11:41:11 PM
Don’t forget it was one of the first books released for WAB1, a bit of a trail blazer.

This is very true. The first book "Chariot Wars" was a trail blazer and this author used it to guide his work- an all list (info embedded) manifest (sadly, in hindsight, that book is not what came out). The leaders of the pack did not seem interested in errata for tournaments, since reasonable players could ferret it out for themselves. Then "Fall of the West" came out and changed the supplement process- or warped it. In the final reckoning, I like Chariot Wars it was my model for the perfect WAB supplement, and still is. I wish they had supported it with obvious errata and explanations such as simple ones we are dealing with here. But this "two shot archer camel" question kind of belies why WAB is a zombie game, dead but sometimes still scratching at the door.
Title: Re: Warhammer Ancient Battles: Chariot Wars - Rules Question (Camels)
Post by: guitarheroandy on January 30, 2020, 02:20:25 PM
I did not know that !!!... NOW I NEED to get a WAB2 ...  curse you !!

For a long time I though I had it only to realize that I only had 1.5 ....  having the point formula out was a smart idea...

As my CLASH armies grow I'm getting to the point where I'll be able to try War & Conquest, which pretty much evolved from WAB...

( how I miss the WAB army books )

WAB 2 is alright, but it rewrote a lot of how warband armies work and as a result you couldn't always use the old supplements with it very well. I personally love Age of Arthur and El Cid supplements... Such fun! The Hannibal supplement had some great ideas for the manipular legion but you needed a lot of models to make it work properly and look good (at least 3000pts really) and a lot of players simply ignored the historical formations and used the troops in ways designed to win tournament battles (I believe putting triarii on the wings and having no cavalry was a favourite Republican Roman tournament tactic, if memory serves me right.)

War & Conquest is alright. I wrote some Arthurian lists for Rob a few years back which I think still get used in WaC circles today, but I got a bit disillusioned with it as I began to get the same results in games pitting certain armies against certain other armies, which in my view isn't a good thing - suggests an imbalance somewhere if certain types of army beat certain other types all the while - and I'd used Rob's points formulae to the letter with all my lists too... 
Title: Re: Warhammer Ancient Battles: Chariot Wars - Rules Question (Camels)
Post by: seldon on January 30, 2020, 03:05:57 PM
That is very interesting..

I love all the WAB books.. they are just so much fun just to read them.. I think I have all of them... I wish they had released Rise of Rome and Samurais

I do need to find 2.0 now, just out of curiosity..

I saw that they look to be reviving W&C, even maybe thinking of some Fantasy, that would be great...

I understand what you mentioned, to fix those issues you need to keep the rules alive and benefit from playtesting and adjust...  it is hard with the large figure count required with those rules...  Still fun if you work to do a balanced scenario instead of competitive gaming...

( this is a fun an education thread :) , thank you OP )
Francisco
Title: Re: Warhammer Ancient Battles: Chariot Wars - Rules Question (Camels)
Post by: tikitang on January 30, 2020, 04:04:47 PM

( this is a fun an education thread :) , thank you OP )
Francisco

You're welcome; I never thought a simple question about camel archers would be such a popular topic!  lol
Title: Re: Warhammer Ancient Battles: Chariot Wars - Rules Question (Camels)
Post by: wmyers on January 30, 2020, 05:13:50 PM
It’s also got me more interested in Biblical era and I don’t have a lot in that period. Just some Egyptians really.

Using Mordheim rules, along with the Chariot Wars supplement I would not have to buy many. (Or if I used my 20mm, I would not have to buy anything!)
Title: Re: Warhammer Ancient Battles: Chariot Wars - Rules Question (Camels)
Post by: tikitang on January 30, 2020, 06:35:49 PM
It’s also got me more interested in Biblical era

Then my work here is done!  8)

Title: Re: Warhammer Ancient Battles: Chariot Wars - Rules Question (Camels)
Post by: wmyers on February 01, 2020, 02:22:34 AM
Then my work here is done!  8)

Or is it just beginning ... ?
Title: Re: Warhammer Ancient Battles: Chariot Wars - Rules Question (Camels)
Post by: Silent bob on February 01, 2020, 08:11:31 AM
I still potter along using WAB for my Slave Wars games.....not professionally of course - only for fun.....oh yes...isn't that the idea of wargaming....fun....

I think over the past 40 years, wargames rules have become more fun to play.....perhaps because they are now written with a specific war or period in mind (rather than 4000bc to 1485 - whatever it was) - I hark back here to the legal tomes of Newbury Rules and WRG
Title: Re: Warhammer Ancient Battles: Chariot Wars - Rules Question (Camels)
Post by: tikitang on February 12, 2020, 12:31:55 PM
For the record, I managed to get a message to Nigel Stillman himself, via the Perry brothers, asking him this question.

Today I got a reply. Nigel says:

Quote
In the spirit of Warhammer, players are free to agree their own interpretations

That is all!

As previously stated, I've decided to give the Midianite Arabs two shots per model (as written in WAB 2.0 Armies of Antiquity), but for my own project, I've borrowed a rule from Warhammer Skirmish, where the first wound dealt actually kills the mount, not the riders. As such, when my camel riders take their first wound, the camel will die and the two archers will then proceed on foot as two separate models.
Title: Re: Warhammer Ancient Battles: Chariot Wars - Rules Question (Camels)
Post by: wmyers on February 12, 2020, 06:05:11 PM
For the record, I managed to get a message to Nigel Stillman himself, via the Perry brothers, asking him this question.

Today I got a reply. Nigel says:

That is all!

As previously stated, I've decided to give the Midianite Arabs two shots per model (as written in WAB 2.0 Armies of Antiquity), but for my own project, I've borrowed a rule from Warhammer Skirmish, where the first wound dealt actually kills the mount, not the riders. As such, when my camel riders take their first wound, the camel will die and the two archers will then proceed on foot as two separate models.

Thank you for this update!

Being used to some rule sets that allow/require odds rolls, I was thinking, as I read your decision on a roll to see if a rider or mount are hit.

I’m trying to remember elephants’ rules.  Camels are about twice the size of horses.  Then, of course, there are two riders.
Title: Re: Warhammer Ancient Battles: Chariot Wars - Rules Question (Camels)
Post by: Jjonas on February 14, 2020, 02:31:52 AM
Actually making a camel a separate mount in WAB would be a nice touch.  The more skirmish oriented one's games the better this kind of rule idea works. WAB always worked well when played by "agreeable players", often a combination as rare as a unicorn with butterflies and rainbows sprouting from its hindquarters. Luckily camelry in WAB are as rare as unicorns and mostly as ineffective as unicorns in WFB. To paraphrase the late Allen Curtis- "Who would be stupid enough to ride a camel into a battle"? Someone as he with a vast knowledge of Crusader warfare had nothing but contempt of the idea of camel effectiveness other than as herds used as gambits and trickery against the hapless.

But then there is the infamous barded Roman camelphracts on the original Imperial Romans list...
Title: Re: Warhammer Ancient Battles: Chariot Wars - Rules Question (Camels)
Post by: wmyers on February 14, 2020, 06:55:47 AM
If I recall correctly, and I may not, I believe I read that camels were used to transport troops. Not as cavalry mounts. 

Then again, who was there and gave the primary source documentation ...?

Now, if you watch Lawrence of Arabia, camels are shown leading charges.
Title: Re: Warhammer Ancient Battles: Chariot Wars - Rules Question (Camels)
Post by: DivisMal on February 14, 2020, 07:35:58 AM
What we should not forget is, that warfare is a lot more about supply and logistics than actual battles. And while camels might not be of much use against a charge of armored knights, they can handily transport people and supplies over the vast deserts that is the Near East.

Also do not forget that the biblical era (whenever you want to place it Old or New Testament, Late Bronze, Iron Age or Roman Occupation of Palestine) is very, very different from the era of the crusaders.

No heavy cavalry there, sir. No charging knights and fanaticsl pilgrims, but beautiful chariots (ok, not anymore in Roman times 8)). So especially in small scale skirmish operations I see no reason, why camels should not be used to raid a village or disrupt supply lines.