Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => Fantasy Adventures => Topic started by: Ethelred the Almost Ready on February 16, 2020, 06:13:04 AM
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I have bought some Oathmark wolf riders, but I am not sold on the wolf sculpts.
I think Tolkien wargs should not be enormous, otherwise they would be super weapons. To my mind the GW sized wargs are just too big. Doing some Googling I think the RAFM wolves might be a good match for my solitary Thunderbolt Mountain wolf. I think this is about the ideal size for a warg.
I have tried various manufacturers, so far. The pictures are below.
Has anyone bought the RAFM wolves? If so, do you have a picture?
How about Vendel wolves?
In the pictures I have tried to match the base heights of the goblin and elf with the wolves.
Fenrisian Wolves (GW). These and the Reaper wolf for me are better suited to First Age werewolves.
(https://i.ibb.co/RYgKRMZ/20200216-183843.jpg) (https://ibb.co/sbg48Dk)
(https://i.ibb.co/1RxY1hC/20200216-183905.jpg) (https://ibb.co/WB1NZqr)
Thunderbolt Mountain. For me, about the right size.
(https://i.ibb.co/pvTQd0S/20200216-183958.jpg) (https://ibb.co/BVJGBz9)
Red Box. Bigger than natural wolves but too small to carry a goblin/orc?
(https://i.ibb.co/nPvYG6L/20200216-184033.jpg) (https://ibb.co/J34G1ms)
(https://i.ibb.co/0BhwQtS/20200216-184052.jpg) (https://ibb.co/YDprbZM)
Reaper Bones
(https://i.ibb.co/gzyJ6vQ/20200216-184157.jpg) (https://ibb.co/NZxK71f)
The whole lot!
(https://i.ibb.co/PCXqZj2/20200216-184322.jpg) (https://ibb.co/YjnH7Q5)
(https://i.ibb.co/NL6yKsv/20200216-184409.jpg) (https://ibb.co/9q9rWND)
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Agreed re: the Oathmark wolves, which is a shame, because by my reckoning it's their first blot on the copy book. I agree with you about the wolves, not just the height/length, but also the general build (not to mention fur texture). In my mind they should have a lean quality to them and be big enough to carry a Goblin/Orc but not be absolutely massive because they seem to be used as wide-ranging scouts as opposed to heavy cavalry! I'd probably plump for the Fenrisian wolves, as they have the right proportions to my eye, both anatomically and compared to the riders, although they are still very big compared to that poor Elf.
One issue is that the Tolkein Goblins/Orcs were considerably smaller than men (except for the Uruk Hai who were the largest Goblins/Orcs and seemed to be 'almost man-sized') but in going for a generic Goblin/Orc race, Oathmark seems to be trying to go for something between the modern fantasy trope of the small Goblin and big Orc, which comes out at an 'almost man-sized' Uruk Hai dimension. Not a problem for the infantry, in fact I think they look great, but because the wolf riders seem to have similar proportions, there's the need for much bigger wolves to cope!
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Have to agree with you guys, the wolves put me off. I like the riders, but not their mounts.
Best wolf rider I ever had was a small Asgard goblin with a round shield and spear, riding a slim, long wolf with a large head and shoulders but not a huge bulky features. In shape it was most like the Reaper wolf, but not so broad across the shoulders and it's rider was quite small, reminded me of a jockey with an evil goblin face.
Sadly I can't find one, but I'm sure someone will have a pic.
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Have to agree with you guys, the wolves put me off. I like the riders, but not their mounts.
Best wolf rider I ever had was a small Asgard goblin with a round shield and spear, riding a slim, long wolf with a large head and shoulders but not a huge bulky features. In shape it was most like the Reaper wolf, but not so broad across the shoulders and it's rider was quite small, reminded me of a jockey with an evil goblin face.
Sadly I can't find one, but I'm sure someone will have a pic.
http://www.thevikingforge.net/25mm-fantasy-orcs.html
Anyone gone for Russian Alternative?
https://russian-alternative.com/shop/fantasy/the-goblin-wolfriders-unit/
Viking Forge have the Asgard range but the wolves aren't too sleek. I do loke these figures but have never got around to buying any.
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For my money I will be going the fenrisian route (damn your eyes GW for making me say that) have test fitted an oathmark goblin infantryman on one and imo looks good. Oathmark wolves just don't do it for me look a bit over fed, want my wolves lean and hungry looking
Just my own preferences
Cheese all
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For what it's worth, to me the Oathmark wolves are a real turn off too, as I find that they look like overfed mongrels resulting from the unholy union of an old plastic GW wolf and a pug. A real shame, as all other Oathmark products so far have been stellar...
For my Erehwon goblin army, I've used the Fenrisian Wolves in combination with GW's (post Skull Pass) plastic goblins as riders, and the end result is pretty convincing; the wolves actually look like they can support their riders and move at speed.
I think that slightly larger riders would still work with them, but smaller wolves are just not a good option in my eyes (and I've looked at most kinds available at the time...).
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I have the RafM wolves and they are really nice. The right size and proportions for me.
Also in style they fit well with both Oathmark and the old Grenadier miniatures.
They're old Bob Murch sculpts.
I did post a picture on the Middle Earth FB group but not on my blog. I'll see what I can do later on.
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Cheers.
Just saw them on the Middle Earth group. They look perfect. I will put an order in. Hopefully they should arrive just after I get my Oathmark wolfriders.
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Seems a lot of us are disappointed with the Oathmark wolves.
I will admit that in my project I am going to be mixing a lot of different wolves for wargs, even the hyena like GW LOTR ones despite not liking the look of their heads very much. I like to look of the Fenrisian wolves the best but cost is prohibitive for me and I like diversity. If I remember correctly Gandalf mentions Gundabad wargs are faster than other wargs, this implies to me differences in wargs. You make a fair point about werewolves though as well.
And your minis look great! Thanks for sharing those photos so we can do comparisons between the sculpts.
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Seems a lot of us are disappointed with the Oathmark wolves.
I'm guessing it's a different sculptor and computer-designed from the look.
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I put this on the Middle Earth wargames FB page but thought this might stimulate some discussion here. I am sure Hobgoblin may have some thoughts (and probably tell me the stupidity of my ways!).
"These are my thoughts on wolves, wargs and werewolves. Tolkien didn’t write his books with wargamers or role-players in mind and as such was quite happy to be vague on many topics.
With respect to wolves, werewolves and wargs there is no real certainty and things are made worse by the unusual wolves that attacked the Fellowship in Hollin.
Wolves
Tolkien will use the term wolf for werewolves, wargs and also normal wolves. The white wolves that invaded the Eriador and attacked the Shire during the Fell Winter are probably natural wolves.
Werewolves and Wargs
While he does refer to both as wolves, I don’t believe they are the same. Wargs are not specifically mentioned in the Silmarillion although there is mention of wolves working with orcs and I suspect these would be what were later termed wargs (I believe this was a name given to them by the ancestors of the Rohirrim). Some feel that wargs are the same as werewolves but I would contest that the First Age werewolves seem to be very large and very powerful (wolves inhabited by evil spirits, possibly lesser Umaiar) and only slain by mighty warriors or special hounds. Wargs are slain by mere men and many are killed by Legolas, a rustic Sylvan/Sindar elf, not a mighty Noldor from when elves were in their prime. Therefore they must be different creatures.
Wargs, I feel, cannot be massive. The Battles for the Fords of Isen, perhaps, give us the best description of the tactical use of wargs and wolf riders. They are not used as a shock force in these battles (this was the role of massed Uruks and axemen). They seem to have been used as scouts, a rapidly mobile force that could isolate and cut off enemy forces and were employed particularly against picketed horses. The note regarding wolf riders is as follows:
“They were very swift and skilled in avoiding ordered men in close array, being used mostly to destroy isolated groups or to hunt down fugitives; but at need they would pass with reckless ferocity through any gaps in companies of horsemen, slashing at the bellies of the horses.”
If wargs were massive they would be great as a battering ram against some puny men in a shield wall but are just not employed this way. As already mentioned by Ant Lane, if they are slashing at the bellies of horses, they must be shorter than horses. They might still be relatively strong and bulky as they have to carry orcs swiftly.
The Wolves of Hollin
These pose some problems for a number of reasons and I think people erroneously believe that these were typical of all wargs.
They certainly have the appearance of wargs as Aragorn identifies them as such. Gandalf, of course, has had previous encounters with wargs but does seem somewhat surprised or worried by the fact that the dead wolves have disappeared the morning after the attack. I think this indicates that these were not typical wargs.
Gandalf does use the term gaurhoth, meaning werewolf, during the fight.
“Naur an edraith amen! Naur dan I ngaurhoth!”
Does it mean these are werewolves? I don’t think so. Werewolves didn’t vanish on death in the Silmarillion and these must have appeared much the usual size for wargs (for the reason above). I think this is merely an incantation remembered from the First Age.
So, for gamers, I think we can have wolves, wargs, some sort of strange spirit wolf/warg and, if gaming in the First Age, werewolves.
Wolves are normal sized wolves. Wargs are larger, possibly stocky but not overly tall and more intelligent. Werewolves are large (most) to massive (Carcharoth). The wolves of Hollin are warg sized, probably mortal (they died) but were under some sort of necromancy.
The great thing with Tolkien is that you all may disagree but your arguments will all lack definitive proof (as do mine) and I am free to imagine wolves and wargs as I wish (as you can in your own way). Just remember, however, that I am right and you are wrong". lol
I am quite happy to have my Reaper warg and Fenrisian wolves as werewolves.
The Red Box wolves will be wargs.
The Thunderbolt Mountain wolf will join some RAFM wolves (I am yet to order these) as mounts for the Oathmark wolf riders.
I have just had it pointed out that it would have been cheaper just to buy some Asgard wolf riders, but there you go.
I don't know what I will use the Oathmark wolves for. Wolf statues maybe? I really don't need more werewolves (six are more than enough).
As for my normal wolves, they will be............ wolves.
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Just to add about the Asgard wolves (and associated orcs),I have 8 of them; Viking Forge excellent service,the moulds are still good,the sculpts are brilliant,and they’re cheap :)
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Great thread! Really enjoying reading it here & on the FB Middle Earth group, the information has indeed been stimulating & has led to purchasing the Fenrisian wolves. I really like the look of those old Asgard sculpts sold by Viking Forge, encouraging to know that they are good to deal with. Postage from US to Tasmania has me pausing for thought though - usually prefer to buy from Oz or UK. :)
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Hi Jack,
We are almost neighbours - I'm in New Zealand. Postage from the US is rather problematic. I always laugh at Brits/Americans who complain their favourite company is on the wrong side of the pond. Try being in a completely different hemisphere!
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Hi Jack,
We are almost neighbours - I'm in New Zealand. Postage from the US is rather problematic. I always laugh at Brits/Americans who complain their favourite company is on the wrong side of the pond. Try being in a completely different hemisphere!
Yea verily!
I have to think carefully before I order anything.
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Since some folks like me have quit Facebook it is nice to see information mirrored here. Thanks for taking the time, this thread is informative and entertaining.
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Great thread, and great paint on those wolf pics!
After viewing this thread, I just had to go pawing through some of my oldest figures, remembering some wolf riders I acquired in the late 70s or early 80s. I think I was still using humbrol enamels at this time, though looking at them now, maybe I had already graduated to acrylics. One thing is certain: these guys saw a lot of action on thge gaming table back in the day, and they look well-handled. Now I can see they deserve a decent re-paintjob.
(https://gdurl.com/R9mN)
(https://gdurl.com/XqiF)
I've no recollection what manufacturer or line they were from. Perhaps someone will chime in.
As to the OP's question, yes, I agree, many of those worlves are too big. As the years march on, we keep getting bigger and bigger figures, doubtless to make them more fierce, more powerful and so on (from 25mm to 28mm to "heroic 28mm" and beyond), but the "true 25s" of yesteryear still have a lot of charm.
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Yeah, I have a bunch of Asgard wolves too. Great minis all round for Tolkein orcs/goblins. Great to see those GW Fenrisian wolves, I've been tempted to buy a bunch every now and again but have never managed to get around to it. I Just bought the latest Underworlds Goblin wolfrider troupe so I wonder how they will match up to others when they arrive.
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Interesting thread!
I love those old wolfriders! I think they're from Archive (http://www.miniatures-workshop.com/lostminiswiki/index.php?title=Fantasy_Series_%28Archive%29#5024).
On the wolf/warg/werewolf thing, my suspicion is that wargs and werewolves are pretty much the same thing. Now, I know that Gandalf says something about "wargs and werewolves" being among the servants of Sauron, but Tolkien often uses a sort of repetitio technique, calling the same thing by different names ("goblins, hobgoblins and orcs"; "orcs and wolfriders", "they ride upon wolves and the wargs are in their train", etc.).
One point I'd make about the Silmarillion is that it can't really be used as an authoritative source on Tolkien's final views. He didn't publish it in that form, and so we shouldn't be surprised by contradictions between it and LotR. An obvious example is the "orcs are corrupted elves" thing, which doesn't seem to have been Tolkien's final view on the matter and isn't really supported by anything in LotR.
Also, The Hobbit isn't entirely consistent with LotR, despite Tolkien's later emendations to bring it more into line.
On the other hand, a lot of the material in Unfinished Tales (like The Battles of the Fords of the Isen) is clearly "supporting material" for LotR. So it's a much better source for cross-referencing with that book.
So, why might wargs and werewolves be the same thing? Well, with Tolkien, language and etymology are probably the best guide to his thinking. Philology was his first and most enduring love. So I think it's significant that Gandalf calls the Hollin wargs gaurhoth, or "werewolves". Tolkien loves to have his characters use different languages to describe the same creatures. Think of goblins/orcs/yrch/uruks/gorgun, etc. And again, he loves that duplicating rhetorical technique, so "wargs and werewolves" (particularly with the alliteration) isn't necessarily a contradiction.
But there's more. What does warg mean? Well, etymologically, it's a Norse word that means both "wolf" and "outlaw". So it's a word that describes both a man and a wolf: quite a suitable word for a werewolf.
As to werewolves being "fell beasts inhabited by dreadful spirits", I suspect that's what Tolkien had in mind as his 'rationalisation' of wargs (talking, intelligent, evil wolves). He certainly considered that orcs might be forms of various sorts animated by evil spirits. It appears to be one of his default explanation for evil species, along with "corruption". If I remember correctly, he seemed to favour "evil spirits" more than "corruption" on balance, because the latter posed him theological problems (such as the irredeemability of orcs).
I think there's a useful application of Occam's razor here. There's a well-observed geeky tendency to over-systematise things - and it's especially pronounced among tabletop gamers, who are always looking for ways to separate out different species with different statlines. Look, for example, at how often Middle Earth gamers talk about "orcs and Uruk-hai" as two separate things. Even Tolkien, with his love of repetitio, doesn't do this; he usually describes the Uruk-hai simply as "Orcs". But if we apply Occam's razor instead, we end up with one class of supernatural wolves, created by Sauron, and - like pretty much everything else in Middle Earth - more fearsome and formidable in the First Age than in the Third. That neatly explains why the same creatures are called "Wargs", "Hounds of Sauron" and "gaurhoth" (werewolves) in the space of a paragraph or two.
As to the disappearing Warg bodies, I think Ethelred has that right when he says that it suggests that they were "under some sort of necromancy". To me, it's just a spooky sign that supernatural forces were involved: Sauron or Saruman (who Tolkien at one point suggested might have come up with the idea of orcs riding wolves).
The Asgard wolfriders look really good to me; I reckon the Asgard range is among the most Tolkien-flavoured out there.
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I knew you'd get lured out with a Tolkein species discussion!
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Like a moth to a flame - even with the Six Nations to distract me!
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Thanks, Hobgoblin, they are indeed Archive Miniatures figures. I'll have to see if I can get round to re-painting them.
Though I'm still caught up in a pirate-themed PF2 campaign. Hmmm.
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I believe this 'duplicating rhetorical technique' is actually an old Germanic and Norse storytelling technique, used also in the Sagas and old fairy tales.
Like John Hurt in Jim Henson's old Storyteller TV show. Love it. It's very evocative but in fact I suppose it's a poetic way to use different words to describe a particular thing and not to distinguish one from another.
All the better for us as it gives us so much to wonder about.
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Yes, exactly: it's very common in a lot of older literature from various parts of the world. And, as you imply, it's a natural fit with oral storytelling traditions because it involves savouring the words for their sound. I've always thought that Gandalf's "goblins, orcs and hobgoblins of the worst description" in The Hobbit is akin to a storyteller saying something like "the woods were thick with brigands, bandits and footpads of the worst description". The narrator isn't trying to distinguish between the three words for robber; he's just using them to amplify the effect of the description.
It's been a long while since I studied Latin and Greek, but I recall lots of lists containing words that essentially meant 'warrior' and the like. Any analysis of rhetorical tropes will always contain a long list of "figures of repetition"; unfortunately, there's often little agreement on the formal terms for each (one scholar's repetitio is another's tautologia, and so on).
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"the woods were thick with brigands, bandits and footpads of the worst description"
Well, for roleplaying gamers those would be very different things, implying experience points of different level Thief. lol
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Well, for roleplaying gamers those would be very different things, implying experience points of different level Thief. lol
Ha! Touché!
I reckon one reason (other than geekish systematising) for D&D's differentiation between monsters with names that essentially mean the same thing (goblin, orc, hobgoblin, bugbear, etc.) is just to match the level titles of fighting-men, etc.,. in the original rule books.
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Welcome aboard, Hobgoblin. I thought that might be the argument you would use and, as always, I can't really find fault with it (I suspect you may even be right).
But, I do see werewolves and wargs as different in terms of how they seem to be employed. Although only a little is written about werewolves in the Silmarillion, they do seem to be of a higher order of power. Having said that, the only ones specifically mentioned are Draugluin, Carcharoth and Sauron in wolf form and these might not be truly representative of all werewolves. Wargs generally seem smaller and easier to kill. Possibly the spirits inhabiting the First Age werewolves/wargs were just more powerful. In gaming terms it would then still be reasonable to have wererwolves and wargs/lesser werewolves.
The Silmarillion was never completed by JRR but most of us would still consider it canon. It is clear from many of Tolkien's later letters that he was not settled on many aspects of his world, from things as simple as orcs all the way to cosmology and the nature of elves.
In the end, one could argue almost anything for the Silmarillion as it is meant to be a story told by elves to men and then handed down over generations. As such it could all be misunderstood or have been altered over time. You could also argue that the elves had their own agenda and have embellished the stories for their own ends!
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Although only a little is written about werewolves in the Silmarillion, they do seem to be of a higher order of power. Having said that, the only ones specifically mentioned are Draugluin, Carcharoth and Sauron in wolf form and these might not be truly representative of all werewolves.
Yes - but isn't there a persistent theme in Tolkien's writing that most beings were more powerful in the past? He hints somewhere that goblins are still with us, but in the past they were "strong and fell". And I think there's a consistent theme of "diminishment" with regard to Men and Elves. So, just as First Age Men and Elves can be more superheroic, so too might wargs/werewolves. There's a Morgoth/Sauron comparison there too: the Shadow of the Third Age is nowhere near as dark as the Shadow of the First.
Wargs generally seem smaller and easier to kill. Possibly the spirits inhabiting the First Age werewolves/wargs were just more powerful. In gaming terms it would then still be reasonable to have wererwolves and wargs/lesser werewolves.
Yes, I agree - just as you can find support for great orc warriors who were lesser corrupted Maiar. And, of course, in a game you're likely to want to err on the side of more variety.
The Silmarillion was never completed by JRR but most of us would still consider it canon. It is clear from many of Tolkien's later letters that he was not settled on many aspects of his world, from things as simple as orcs all the way to cosmology and the nature of elves.
I don't think there really is a canon for Tolkien's writings. The published Silmarillion wasn't published by JRRT and isn't in the form he'd have published it (we know this because he hadn't completed it); and The Hobbit doesn't fit exactly with The Lord of the Rings. So I don't think you can really establish a canon in this way. I think you can establish a canon that consists of LotR and supporting 'histories' (The Disaster of the Gladden Fields, The Battle of the Fords of the Isen, etc.) that were written to fit with it.
And I think it's clear that establishing a Sil-Hobbit-LotR canon can lead to some odd conclusions. The most obvious one is the idea that trolls were made by 'corrupting' Ents. Tolkien never, ever wrote that this was the case. But people have inferred it because of this line from Treebeard in LotR:
"Maybe you have heard of Trolls? They are mighty strong. But Trolls are only counterfeits, made by the Enemy in the Great Darkness, in mockery of Ents, as Orcs were of Elves."
Now, that line in no way inidcates that Trolls were originally Ents. But people who accept the Silmarillion as "canon" often read it as saying such, because they've read the "corrupted Elves" story in the Silmarillion. So they make an entirely incorrect inference (as Tolkien's other writings on trolls show).
But in the case of the First Age's heroic werewolves, I don't think we're necessarily dealing with a contradiction. Tolkien constantly presents the First Age as a time of greater heroes and villains than those that existed in the Third Age. On a related tangent, his last writings on Saruman's breeding of his Uruks suggests that what Saruman was doing was reintroducing the greater orc breeds that had existed in earlier times. The Disaster of the Gladden Fields obliquely supports this idea too, with almost all of the "great orcs" killed then.
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My Oathmark wolf riders have arrived. Great service from Northstar, the wolves and various other figures made it across the world in only three weeks.
I was prepared to find the wolves weren't as bad as I thought they might be but was sadly disappointed. They are fat, hairless and slightly cartoon-like. I am very pleased with the goblin riders. I think these are some of the best sculpts from the Oathmark range.
Below are pictures comparing my bigger wolves with the Oathmark wolf and how it looks against a goblin, elf and horse.
(https://i.ibb.co/419DH4B/20200227-073934.jpg) (https://ibb.co/GHB1qCg)
(https://i.ibb.co/tL0skm3/20200227-074057.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Hhcz1FX)
(https://i.ibb.co/jvgd2jh/20200227-074130.jpg) (https://ibb.co/zhG1Yts)
(https://i.ibb.co/pjB2yFv/20200227-075304.jpg) (https://ibb.co/GQ47TSv)
(https://i.ibb.co/gg3P25t/20200227-075421.jpg) (https://ibb.co/F7K0rS8)
(https://i.ibb.co/QfG24P1/20200227-075431.jpg) (https://ibb.co/DtnxZ9S)
(https://i.ibb.co/T4SjX9y/20200227-075439.jpg) (https://ibb.co/St8YTFS)
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Well that's a little disappointing. Hard to make plastic wolves though I imagine especially with all the possible undercuts (unless you have megabucks like gw to spend on tooling)
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The head reminds me of the Stark direwolf sigil from Game of Thrones. The bulk really is not helped by the smooth appearance. I suppose some fur definition could be sculpted in with green stuff.
The Oathmark wolf next to the horse is really jarring to me but maybe painting would reduce that?
The Oathmark wolfrider looks good on the Fenrisian wolf.... but my budget, and my wife, thinks I should just take some plastic chaos hounds in my bits box and convert them to wargs. At least until folks start selling used Oathmark wolfiders on eBay. Of course that means sculpting with green stuff again.
Wolf rider spare bits sprues will be nice to add diversity to goblin infantry builds.
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I've said it before, but I really hope the wolves get redesigned and remade in a better shape.
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I'll have to paint one the Asgard wolf riders up this weekend so everyone can get an idea.
There are also the Slave2Gaming wolves,sculpted in a very old school style, very good they are too :)
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I'll have to paint one the Asgard wolf riders up this weekend so everyone can get an idea.
There are also the Slave2Gaming wolves,sculpted in a very old school style, very good they are too :)
Am I right in thinking the goblins are very small and, presumably, the wolves are also small for modern 28mm figures?
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Warg weight loss program.
Water, celery and only one hobbit a day.
(https://i.ibb.co/4mrPtLr/20200228-190541.jpg) (https://ibb.co/h7zD9Nz)
best image hosting (https://imgbb.com/)
The new slimmed down version with his fatter friend.
This is a WIP. So far I have just trimmed back with a hobby knife and file. Green Stuff next.
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Already a better version!
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Aye, that is quite an improvement!
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I'm late to the discussion here, but here is a picture of the Vendel wolves/wargs with riders. Our figures haven't missed too many meals.
Bill Hupp
T&R Miniatures