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Miniatures Adventure => Age of Myths, Gods and Empires => Topic started by: NickNascati on February 25, 2020, 12:42:34 AM

Title: Neanderthals throwing spears?
Post by: NickNascati on February 25, 2020, 12:42:34 AM
All,
     I wonder what the consensus is on this idea.  Mana Press Primeval rules, do not all Neanderthals any thrown weapon, expect perhaps a rock.  I’m not sure I agree.  I can see a heavy, thrown spear having a shorter range than a light spear hurled from an atlatl, but to allow no spear throwing at all seems harsh to me.
Title: Re: Neanderthals throwing spears?
Post by: von Lucky on February 25, 2020, 01:15:15 AM
Considering the long time period, and the fact that new research dispels or reaffirms old presumptions, I think you can change it so that they can.

Found these related articles on the Schöningen spears that supports your theory (note published after Primeval was published):
https://www.history.com/news/neanderthal-spear-throwing-discovery
https://phys.org/news/2019-01-neanderthal-spears-distance.html
https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2019/01/neanderthal-spears-threw-pretty-well/581218/

Give them a unit of spear throwers if you wish - no one is going to disagree with you (and Tribal / Primeval is flexible enough to allow it).
Title: Re: Neanderthals throwing spears?
Post by: NickNascati on February 25, 2020, 01:24:50 AM
Good, I’m glad there is factual support.  I think the range should definitely be shorter than a Cro-Magnon throwing a light spear from an atlatl.
Title: Re: Neanderthals throwing spears?
Post by: Cat on February 25, 2020, 02:55:42 AM
Also note: if they are not from the Neander Valley, they're just sparkling cavemen.
~ , ~
Title: Re: Neanderthals throwing spears?
Post by: von Lucky on February 25, 2020, 03:22:21 AM
Are you suggesting Nick paints them in glitter paint?
Title: Re: Neanderthals throwing spears?
Post by: Matakakea on February 26, 2020, 04:53:44 PM
Quote
Also note: if they are not from the Neander Valley, they're just sparkling cavemen.


Arrggh!! lol
Title: Re: Neanderthals throwing spears?
Post by: DivisMal on February 26, 2020, 07:51:07 PM
Ah, von Lucky beat me to it!

I am actually an archaeologist working in the Lower Saxony State Museum, and while we didn’t get the Schöningen spears - they got their own beautiful display on the site itself, we also got the wooden thrusting spear from Lehringen, which is in my responsibility.. Both finds were preserved in the eternal rain of northwestern Germany.

While Schöningen for a long time was dated to the time of homo erectus (I still did my PhD exam with that dating i. 2009), recent reevaluation of the stratigraphy, new datings and new research suggests a considerably lower date and make it possible to put them to Neanderthals.

The Lehringen spear’s association with Neanderthals was never disputed, but it seems to be a footman lance or thrusting spear.

This is all rather exciting with the new datings of Neanderthal art (which give credibility to older finds which were often talked away as „singular“ or „possibly accidental“ in international discussions).


Title: Re: Neanderthals throwing spears?
Post by: sir_shvantselot on February 26, 2020, 09:09:39 PM
Fascinating. So Neanderthals could throw spears?
Title: Re: Neanderthals throwing spears?
Post by: Freelancer on February 27, 2020, 01:46:46 AM
Technically even a Chimp can thow a spear (or missile). I remember watching a young chimp collecting rocks and sticks as missiles to throw at some ducks that were annoying it out in a pond. Were they shaped aerodynamic missiles made with the intent of hitting targets at range? No.
Neanderthals made very effective tools. DivisMal may be able to correct me on this, but there is no current evidence of shaped stone throwing spearheads (aerodynamic, symmetrical) made by Neanderthals. The Schöningen spears look like they were intended as some type of javelin, or light thrusting spear. Would they have been very accurate or lethal over range?? So yes, Neanderthals probably chucked ranged missiles, but would it be their modus operandi? Game rules are all about stereotypes, and Primeval only suggests these restricitions to make differences between the subspecies more distinct. The Throwing weapons skill actually fits these sort of spears quite well (lobbed at their target just before closing in for the fight) and they are a good excuse for converting your minis  ;)
Title: Re: Neanderthals throwing spears?
Post by: NickNascati on February 27, 2020, 02:59:06 AM
Thanks to all for their very erudite input.  This is obviously a topic worthy of discussion.
Title: Re: Neanderthals throwing spears?
Post by: DivisMal on February 27, 2020, 09:18:23 AM
Technically even a Chimp can thow a spear (or missile). I remember watching a young chimp collecting rocks and sticks as missiles to throw at some ducks that were annoying it out in a pond. Were they shaped aerodynamic missiles made with the intent of hitting targets at range? No.
Neanderthals made very effective tools. DivisMal may be able to correct me on this, but there is no current evidence of shaped stone throwing spearheads (aerodynamic, symmetrical) made by Neanderthals. The Schöningen spears look like they were intended as some type of javelin, or light thrusting spear. Would they have been very accurate or lethal over range?? So yes, Neanderthals probably chucked ranged missiles, but would it be their modus operandi? Game rules are all about stereotypes, and Primeval only suggests these restricitions to make differences between the subspecies more distinct. The Throwing weapons skill actually fits these sort of spears quite well (lobbed at their target just before closing in for the fight) and they are a good excuse for converting your minis  ;)

There is indeed some discussion on Neanderthal missile heads made from flint, but that’s a very specialist topic (definitely not mine).

The Schöningen spears resemble modern Olympic spears or javelins. They are perfectly suited for throwing not so much for thrusting (but then you have the Lehringen spear, that was definitely thrusted).

So how was the modus operandi. Of course, no one of us was there, but the technical perfection of the Schöningen spears also suggests a longer tradition which hasn’t been discovered, yet. So many nice gaming opportunities ...

Title: Re: Neanderthals throwing spears?
Post by: von Lucky on February 27, 2020, 09:24:33 AM
Also note: if they are not from the Neander Valley, they're just sparkling cavemen.
~ , ~

Where you referring to this?!

https://www.theguardian.com/science/2010/jan/11/caveman-neanderthal-makeup-spain

Also, Freelancer you should update your profile to your website, Facebook or blog page ;)
Title: Re: Neanderthals throwing spears?
Post by: NickNascati on February 27, 2020, 01:00:38 PM
One thing I noticed, is that most Neanderthal minis, perhaps all, are modeled with flint pointed spears, not charred wood.
Title: Re: Neanderthals throwing spears?
Post by: DivisMal on February 27, 2020, 03:13:29 PM
One thing I noticed, is that most Neanderthal minis, perhaps all, are modeled with flint pointed spears, not charred wood.

Rather strange. There are of course artifacts which could have been points of projectiles, but the evidence for composite weapons is way stronger with homo sapiens.
Title: Re: Neanderthals throwing spears?
Post by: NickNascati on February 27, 2020, 03:48:16 PM
They are shown with something wrapped tying the poi;t to the shaft, so I assume from that, it represents a flint spearhead.
Title: Re: Neanderthals throwing spears?
Post by: Duncan McDane on February 27, 2020, 04:18:12 PM
Even Monkees throw with sticks so why wouldn't Neandertals do so in a slightly more sophisticated way? I wouldn't be surprised if they'd even used slings for throwing rocks, it's less difficult to discover than how to make a fire imho...
Title: Re: Neanderthals throwing spears?
Post by: DivisMal on February 27, 2020, 05:40:42 PM
Composite projectiles are quite sophisticated.

Monkeys may throw stuff at others, but the pinnacle of ape craft is an anvil stone. There is at least one orang utan who was raised by humans who was able to strike a flint tool, but otherwise even the simplest lithics (like pebble tools from homo habilis) are way beyond anything a monkey might reproduce.

Plus there is a huge cognitive gap between throwing stuff vaguely into the direction of other apes or a leopard to scare it away on the one hand, and hitting a fleeing horse with a wooden spear (that’s what they - erectus or Neanderthals - did in the case of Achöningen), on the other.

It requires imagination, planning and sophisticated communication. You actually need to imagine where the horse will be in the time it needs for your projectile to travel the distance to its target plus way better hand eye coordination.

Now the next step is to produce a projectile that includes a flint tip. This needs some form of glue (birch bark) and modifies the aerodynamics.

To my knowledge, we don’t have any use of slings in Palaeolithic (it should leave traces on the bones, even if we will never find the sling itself). All known weapons are hunting weapons, and thus a sling makes little sense.

We have good evidence of thrusting spears (Neanderthals), throwing spears/javelins (erectus or possibly also Neanderthals, s. above). More complex technology is still reserved to our own species (sapiens sapiens), namely spear throwers and finally bows (as well as hafted adzes, antler adzes.

Spears with flint tips are well documented for sapiens sapiens and possible for Neanderthals.
Title: Re: Neanderthals throwing spears?
Post by: Cat on February 28, 2020, 01:09:48 AM
Where you referring to this?!

https://www.theguardian.com/science/2010/jan/11/caveman-neanderthal-makeup-spain

No (although that's a fun article).  My reference was to general appellation controlée (Champagne v. Sparkling Wine, etc.): real Neanderthals come from the Neander Valley!
Title: Re: Neanderthals throwing spears?
Post by: von Lucky on February 28, 2020, 09:14:04 AM
/golf clap (I got that but not the step to champagne/sparkling). I will blame the fact I missed that on having a light cold this week.
Title: Re: Neanderthals throwing spears?
Post by: NickNascati on February 28, 2020, 03:49:20 PM
Let’s take this a bit further then.  Assuming that the introduction, of the atlatl changed the game, is it logical to think that the cro-magnon man would carry more than one javelin?
Title: Re: Neanderthals throwing spears?
Post by: von Lucky on February 28, 2020, 08:42:34 PM
In my opinion (not backed up by any evidence) I would say initially not. I'd treat the two components as a single tool, as the spear thrower / atlatl was an improvement on the spear, like spear 2.0. Only when Apple opened stores in the valleys did Cro-Magnons buy extra accessories.
Title: Re: Neanderthals throwing spears?
Post by: Freelancer on February 28, 2020, 09:53:18 PM
Well we can use Australian aboriginal cultures as an example of stone age technology used into the current era. The light wooden spears used in hunting were only effective in range and hitting force when thrown with a woomera (atlatl). A Luritja man from central Australia told me of his experience going to school where all the european kids thought he’d be great at javelin. He kept wacking the back of his head with the end of the javelin because although he was shown how to throw a spear as a kid, it wasn’t the same technique as a javelin, a light wooden spear needed a woomera to “launch” it. He also told me that traditionally a man would only carry 1 or 2 spears because: 1) Walking with more was heavy and cumbersome 2) if you missed a kangaroo with your first spear it was unlikely to hang around for you to get a second chance throw ( let alone a third) and 3) in a lot of Australian aboriginal cultures it was considered greedy to want to possess more than you need. I have read and heard this explanation from other sources too. So we could infer from this that other stone age nomadic cultures had a similar philosophy for similar reasons.
Title: Re: Neanderthals throwing spears?
Post by: NickNascati on February 29, 2020, 12:11:29 AM
So it is logical then to ass7me a cro-magnon would probably carry two javelins.
Title: Re: Neanderthals throwing spears?
Post by: Freelancer on February 29, 2020, 12:53:12 AM
Well ass 7 you is never logical, but yes probably carried 2.
Title: Re: Neanderthals throwing spears?
Post by: DivisMal on February 29, 2020, 10:04:22 AM
I second freelancer. I have theown with both javelins and atlatls myself. The latter is way different (and in all respects superior): your throwing distance is less dependent on your strength and the technique is easier to master.

We sadly have neither pictures nor graves that give any evidence, so I would take the Australian evidence as a good model: they were not weapons of war and thus speed was more important to the hunter than endless barrages of javelins.

Maybe you can even make a game mechanism from that:
0-2 javelins — no movement penalty
3-5 javelins — movement’s halved?
Title: Re: Neanderthals throwing spears?
Post by: Freelancer on March 19, 2020, 12:28:16 AM
I was just watching Ten Canoes. Arnhem Land tribes (Northern Australia) carrying 3 spears. The "payback" spear throwing scene had even more.
The movie is a great source for scenarios for Tribal (and Primeval). There is a scene where the warriors are discussing how to get back one of their stolen women (Night attack, Sneak raid when the men are out hunting, etc...).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cLiJ5EhNKyo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cLiJ5EhNKyo)