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Miniatures Adventure => Pikes, Muskets and Flouncy Shirts => Topic started by: mikedemana on March 31, 2020, 02:33:41 AM
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Hi everyone! I have a stack of research books on my coffee table for my next project: Hernando de Soto's 4,000 mile march through North America in the 1500s. I'm curious what would be the most suitable miniatures? May as well take advantage of this isolation time to order figs and begin painting.
For those curious, the ultimate goal is a campaign and scenario book for my Song of Drums and Tomahawks (http://www.firstcommandwargames.com/song-of-drums-and-tomahawks.html) rules. It would be more in the style of Beaver Wars supplement, less like the Pequot War book.
Thanks in advance for any recommendations on miniatures...!
Mike Demana
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Eureka’s Conquistadores and Portuguese would be my suggestion. Good mix of types, including cavalry and lots of quilted armour.
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Gringo 40ks has a nice line of Conquisradors as well. For the natives, You might have to get creative. Ike start with Foundry to see if any of thier old west line might work.
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Foundry do a set of 'Southern Indians'in their early North American Indians range:
https://www.wargamesfoundry.com/collections/early-american-indians/products/ea001-southern-tribes-indians
Mainly Creek and Chocktaw.
If you wanted more of a plains indian tribe look, some of the Warlord Comanche are open handed so could be be back dated in terms of weapons. Likewise some of the Foundry Plains indians are armed with traditional weapons and might be suitable.
From memory Ian Heath's Armies of Mesoamerica has some details on Florida Indians.
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Eureka does a range of Powhatan Indians. They are armed and equipped as pre-contact peoples. I know these are from Virginia but I suppose they could conceivably be used for native Americans from elsewhere on de Soto’s wanderings. No doubt similarly dressed types existed in the Carolinas.
http://eurekamin.com.au/index.php?cPath=87_126_703&sort=3a
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Mixing Ex-Gloria landsknechts Bodys and heads with arms taken from Frostgrave wizard sets or cultists might give some nice results.
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Here are Ian Heath's plates for the Southern USA tribes...
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Thanks, everyone! Great advice...I'll start checking them out.
Keep the suggestions coming... :)
Mike Demana
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Oh. Hell. Yes.
You're gonna sell at least one copy of this book, Mike. I've been building up forces for a Florida campaign for a long time. I have a shelf of books on the subject, but you prolly have those already.
I have sets of Foundry, Eureka and Partha Conquistadors, they're all more-or-less compatible and they all have their charms. Eureka have cavalry and sailors, and some of their infantry packs are on the sketchy side for clothing and equipment. Remember De Soto's army was on the march for more than three years, lost a lot of equipment in the battle at Mabila, and they were pretty ragged by the end. Before Eureka released their cavalry, I added a pack of Old Glory Italian Wars Spanish Genitors to the krewe. They're passable, but their horses are much smaller than the Eureka horses.
Since you asked about Conquistadors, I'll save any discussion of natives for another time. You have a lot of choices.
Did you know there's a boardgame, La Florida, about the sixteenth century Spanish and Huguenot expeditions? It's designed at a higher level of play than a miniatures game, but it might give you some ideas. I have a copy. Once the quarantine is over, I'd enjoy showing off my collection, maybe playing a game with you.
https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/6403/florida
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I'm more than happy to hear your suggestions for figures on the tribes he fought, too! Feel free to tell me which books were your favorites, too. I have a good handful, but not a whole shelf of them! lol
Thanks for the vote of confidence, too!
Mike Demana
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Mike, I've tried several rule sets for Conquistadors in Florida, but none has proven suitable. I play most of my games these days in a club environment. No one has the focus for a multi-session campaign, we all have HADD and will move on to some other subject for next week's game night. I need rules to support six to ten players moving a couple hundred individually mounted 28mm figures around a ping-pong table, keeping all players involved in the game, with turns completed in 10 to 15 minutes and giving a result in three hours of play or less. I'm eager to see what you can do with the SODT engine.
Since you encourage me to write, I'll start with my books.
David Ewing Duncan Hernando de Soto: A Savage Quest in the Americas is the recent history that brought de Soto back to a popular audience. The first half of the book concerns de Soto's life and adventures before Florida, the second half is a detailed account of his Florida expedition that uses recent archaeology to more accurately reconstruct his route. This is the book that got me interested.
https://www.amazon.com/Hernando-Soto-Savage-Quest-Americas/dp/0517582228/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=Hernando+de+soto+a+savage+quest+in+the+americas&qid=1585786480&s=books&sr=1-1
Charles Hudson Knights of Spain, Warriors of the Sun: Hernando de Soto and the South's Ancient Chiefdoms. Hudson is a leading expert on southeastern Indians of the early contact era. The commercial success of Duncan's book probably made this one publishable. Hudson writes more about the Indian polities that lay in de Soto's path, and the entrada's impact on them.
https://www.amazon.com/Knights-Spain-Warriors-Sun-Chiefdoms-ebook/dp/B078V9Q42N/ref=sr_1_fkmr1_1?dchild=1&keywords=Charles+hudson+kinghts+of+spain+warriors+of+the+sun&qid=1585787330&s=books&sr=1-1-fkmr1
Alvar Nunez Cabeza de Vaca Chronicles of the Narvaez Expedition. There are several editions of Cabeza de Vaca, this is the one I own. Narvaez preceded de Soto, and CdeV is mainly noted for his long walk out, but still worth reading for the atmosphere, and for the first-hand account of Narvaez floundering and hacking his way through Florida.
https://www.amazon.com/Chronicle-Expedition-Classics-annotated-Paperback/dp/B011DA42OA/ref=sr_1_4?dchild=1&keywords=cabeza+de+vaca+chronicles+of+the+narvaez+expedition&qid=1585789397&s=books&sr=1-4
Charles Hudson The Juan Pardo Expeditions: Exploration of the Carolinas and Tennessee, 1566-1568. The next stage of Spanish contact after de Soto. Gives more information about southeastern Indian polities in the aftermath of de Soto's entrada.
https://www.amazon.com/Juan-Pardo-Expeditions-Exploration-Southeastern/dp/0817351906/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=charles+Hudson+The+Juan+Pardo+Expeditions&qid=1585792460&s=books&sr=1-1
Charles Hudson and Carmen Chaves Tesser The Forgotten Centuries: Indians and Europeans in the American South, 1521-1704. A collection of papers by various authors on different regional historical topics. Despite the title, papers start before contact in 1521. Good material on southeastern Indian societies.
https://www.amazon.com/Forgotten-Centuries-Europeans-American-1521-1704/dp/0820316547/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=charles+Hudson+The+forgotten+centuries&qid=1585792667&s=books&sr=1-1
Miles Harvey Painter in a Savage Land: The Strange Saga of the First European Artist in North America. The life story (as far as it can be known) of Jacques Le Moyne de Morgues, the French Huguenot artist who participated in and survived the 1564 Fort Caroline colony. Le Moyne's recollections and art, as interpreted by the engraver Theodor de Bry, are some of the earliest images of southeastern Indians. This book covers French relations with the native Timucuans, and critiques what we have of Le Moyne's work.
https://www.amazon.com/Painter-Savage-Land-Strange-European-ebook/dp/B001B35IA2/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=miles+harvey+painter+in+a+savage+land&qid=1585793113&s=books&sr=1-1
Ian Heath Armies of the Aztec and Inca Empires, Other Native Peoples of The Americas, and the Conquistadores (Armies of the Sixteenth Century). Highly recommended if you can find a copy. This is the source for the drawings that v_lazy_dragon posted. There's text too. Not a lot of material about southeastern Indians, but more than you'll find anywhere else. Lots of good stuff on Conquistador armies.
https://www.amazon.com/Empires-Peoples-Americas-Conquistadores-Sixteenth/dp/190154303X/ref=sr_1_2?dchild=1&keywords=ian+heath+armies+of+the+sixteenth+century&qid=1585794237&s=books&sr=1-2
The following titles give more background on southeastern Indians, if you want to dive that deep.
Mark Williams, Gary Shapiro Lamar Archaeology: Mississippian Chiefdoms in the Deep South. A collection of papers by various authors on different regional historical topics of the Mississippian southeast.
https://www.amazon.com/Lamar-Archaeology-Mississippian-Chiefdoms-South/dp/0817304665/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=Mark+Williams%2C+Gary+Shapiro+Lamar+Archaeology%3A+Mississippian+Chiefdoms+in+the+Deep+South.&qid=1585795159&s=books&sr=1-1
Robbie Ethridge From Chicaza to Chickasaw: The European Invasion and the Transformation of the Mississippian World, 1540-1715. Covers the formation of the historic Chickasaw tribe by survivors of the Mississippian Chicaza chiefdom that lay in de Soto's path. Mainly deals with the historic Chickasaws, but the early part of the book gives background of Chicaza and de Soto's impact.
https://www.amazon.com/Chicaza-Chickasaw-Transformation-Mississippian-1540-1715-ebook/dp/B004JN0UH2/ref=sr_1_fkmr0_1?dchild=1&keywords=robbie+ethridge+from+chicaza+to+chikasaw&qid=1585794763&s=books&sr=1-1-fkmr0
David G. Moore Catawba Valley Mississippian: Ceramics, Chronology, and Catawba Indians. A monograph that relates archaeology of the Yadkin and Catawba river valleys in North Carolina to the historic Catawba tribe.
https://www.amazon.com/Catawba-Valley-Mississippian-Ceramics-Chronology/dp/0817311637/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=david+g+moore+catawba+valley+mississippian&qid=1585795331&s=books&sr=1-1
Adam King Etowah: The Political History of a Chiefdom Capital. A monograph on the Mississippian archaeology of the Etowah river valley in Georgia, especially the Etowah site near Cartersville. Etowah was no longer a chiefdom capital by de Soto's time, being then dominated by the Coosa chiefdom, but the book is an interesting study of a Mississippian region.
https://www.amazon.com/Etowah-Political-History-Chiefdom-Capital/dp/0817312234/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=Adam+King+Etowah+the+political&qid=1585795563&s=books&sr=1-1
David J. Hally King: The Social Archaeology of a Late Mississippian Town in Northwestern Georgia. A very detailed monograph on the archaeology of the King site near Rome Georgia, a minor Mississippian town of Coosa that was probably visited by the de Soto and Luna expeditions.
https://www.amazon.com/King-Archaeology-Mississippian-Northwestern-Georgia/dp/0817354603/ref=sr_1_fkmr0_1?dchild=1&keywords=david+j+holly+king+the+social+archaeology&qid=1585796028&s=books&sr=1-1-fkmr0
F. Kent Reilly III, James F. Garber Ancient Objects and Sacred Realms: Interpretations of Mississippian Iconography. A collection of papers by various authors interpreting Mississipian art objects in light of what is known of North American Indian spiritual and cosmologic beliefs. It's creative, but impossible to know how valid these ideas are. Also, many of these objects date from long before historical times, and some assemblies, like the Southeastern Ceremonial Complex, were probably no longer current at the time of first contact. Still, the book includes many drawings of art objects, which might be of interest if you're modelling Lamar Mississippian people and towns.
https://www.amazon.com/Ancient-Objects-Sacred-Realms-Interpretations/dp/0292721382/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=F.+Kent+Reilly+III%2C+James+F.+Garber+Ancient+Objects+and+Sacred+Realms&qid=1585796456&s=books&sr=1-1
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Thanks for the list! I have some of these, but not all -- your library surpasses mine! :D
I will definitely look some of them up, or borrow from my friend Keith whose basement where we often game is lined with books... lol
Thanks again!
Mike Demana
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Taking ZIPPYFUSENET's point about the probably ragged appearance of De Soto's conquistadors, I would recommend the Eureka Portuguese conquistadors. Many of them do have that ragged look - some have patched clothing, some are barefoot or in rope sandals, Some have no shirt or jacket, some have jackets with no shirts,some are bare-legged, etc. I quite like both lines of Eureka's conquistadors, and they blend in well with Wargames Foundry figures (however I find the Ral Partha conquistadors to be a bit too small overall).
https://eurekaminusa.com/collections/conquistadores-28mm-portuguese/products/100por04
https://eurekaminusa.com/collections/conquistadores-28mm-portuguese/products/100por06
https://eurekaminusa.com/collections/conquistadores-28mm-portuguese/products/100por01
https://eurekaminusa.com/collections/conquistadores-28mm-portuguese/products/100por02
https://eurekaminusa.com/collections/conquistadores-28mm-portuguese/products/100por03
https://eurekaminusa.com/collections/conquistadores-28mm-portuguese/products/100por05
https://eurekaminusa.com/collections/conquistadores-28mm-portuguese/products/100por07
https://eurekaminusa.com/collections/conquistadores-28mm-portuguese/products/100por11
https://eurekaminusa.com/collections/conquistadores-28mm-portuguese/products/100por09
https://eurekaminusa.com/collections/conquistadores-28mm-portuguese/products/100por10
https://eurekaminusa.com/collections/conquistadores-28mm-portuguese/products/100por08
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I bought some of the Portuguese figures painted off ebay once and they were very nice.Always sorry I got rid of them.I also have a great interest in this period and have some of the books in Zippy's list.
Mark
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Marco, I trade so much that it's hard to keep track, but I think you might have sold those figures to me. About half of them were painted, very well. The skin tones are a bit darker than most people paint, but great for Iberians in the tropics. A friend painted the rest of them to match, and I bought a few packs of cavalry to fill the set out. Thanks.
I notice you're a voracious reader. So am I. Do you recommend any titles?
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One of the ones I enjoyed the most was River of Darkness https://www.amazon.com/River-Darkness-Francisco-Orellanas-22-Feb-2011/dp/B012HVJELA/ref=tmm_hrd_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=1585884498&sr=1-4
I also have one called Brutal Journey https://www.amazon.com/Brutal-Journey-Story-Crossing-America-ebook/dp/B00CGFCES8/ref=sr_1_2?crid=1Y454V0OZ336G&dchild=1&keywords=brutal+journey&qid=1585884756&s=books&sprefix=brutal%2Cstripbooks%2C169&sr=1-2.I do have a ton of books to read but can't read like I did as my eyes get tired.Right now I've been focusing on the French from Champlain's time until the early 18th cen. expansion to the west in Illinois country to Louisiana.
Mark
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Some more,
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1977207391/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o07_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1594162085/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o03_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0465068405/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o02_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0674751078/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o05_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
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Mike, didn't Wargames Atlantic just release news of about range of 28mm Conquistadors and Aztecs and couldn't some of those Conquistadors work for you. (Now back to building more terrain and scenics for my 28mm 2nd Seminole War project.)
Bill
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For those who likes paintings here's an artist who does some great ones of the Conquistadors. https://www.jimcarsonstudio.com/portfolio/3 A lot of other great paintings also.
Mark
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Thanks, everyone - I really appreciate the responses to this thread. Love the paintings - very evocative! I will be doing some surfing and ordering this week, it looks like! lol
Mike Demana
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Cortes
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Wonderful artwork!
Great as references.
(Perhaps word of this thread will reach somebody like the Perry's and they'll add even more options.)
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Great artwork,thanks for posting :)
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I have finished my previous rulebook I was working on, and have begun the research for the Hernando de Soto one. Starting off with the Duncan's Hernando de Soto: A Savage Quest in the Americas.
I have also finagled a JSTOR membership to get PDFs of academic journals. I'm hoping to find some interesting, current research which will help reconstruct scenarios for the campaign book.
Thanks again, everyone, for the suggestions on miniatures, books, and more!!
Mike Demana
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Since you've given this thread a bump, Mike, I'll suggest one more source for you, a trilogy of novels by W. Michael and Kathleen O'Neal Gear called Contact: The Battle for America. I don't often read fiction, but I like the Gears' writing. The Gears are practicing archeologists who specialize in prehistoric North America. They write novels set in prehistoric Indian societies. Their books are novels, not textbooks, but they draw on their professional knowledge to create them.
Contact: The Battle For America is a tale of the Indian response and resistance to De Soto's invasion. There are no historical sources from the Mississippians in the 1540s, except for what the Spaniards recorded. The Gears have imaginatively created an Indian narrative of this war. Since you are writing a set of wargame rules, you may be interested in the Gears' insights into the tactical problems of neolithic warriors battling Renaissance Europeans.
https://www.amazon.com/s?k=W.+Michael+and+Kathleen+O%27Neal+Gear+contact+the+battle+for+america&i=stripbooks&ref=nb_sb_noss
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Hi Irv! I actually have the entire trilogy of that one sitting on my coffee table. I figured if I did not get enough good scenario ideas out of the primary & secondary sources, I could always use those for inspiration. Weirdly, I read the second of the three years ago before I realized it was a trilogy. I did enjoy it...
Thanks for all your suggestions!
Mike Demana