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Miniatures Adventure => Age of Myths, Gods and Empires => Topic started by: Ockius on April 01, 2020, 12:07:08 PM

Title: Cavalry recommendations: Gallic, Numidian, Roman
Post by: Ockius on April 01, 2020, 12:07:08 PM
Hi everyone,
I have a few ancient armies I am building up, but at present I am looking for some cavalry who could serve as troops or auxiliaries/mercenaries for my Massilian Greek force or my Roman force. I am thinking Gauls or Numidians, or possibly native Romans or Greeks (but my thinking is that Caesar mostly used non-Roman cavalry, and I have presumed that Massilia probably also would have hired foreigners to support their Greek phalanx infantry - this is how I am thinking of themeing my army anyway).

The main condition is: these cavalry must fit the scale of my existing troops. I have Warlord infantry (smallish 28mm), some Warlord Gallic cavalry, and some Crusader and Foundry German cavalry (fairly standard 28mm). I bought some Armorum and Aquila Gallic horsemen (by Mark Sims I think) who were far too small and look a bit silly, and I am apprehensive that the Victrix Gallic cavalry (though excellent sculpts and value) will be far too big.

Anyone got any recommendations?

Anyone know if the Crusader Gallic cavalry is on the small side? (It is by Mark Sims who did the A&A stuff so I thought it might be, but my Crusader Germans are about the right size)
Title: Re: Cavalry recommendations: Gallic, Numidian, Roman
Post by: Hu Rhu on April 01, 2020, 02:44:54 PM
Foundry do some nice Numidian cavalry, whih are slightly smaller then Victrix, so should probably fit well.  They also do some Greek cavalry in the older range.  Again should fit well as should the Macedonians especially the Thracians.

Warlord Games have taken over the Warlord Factory lines but I am not sure if the Gallic cavalry are still availabe.  Ebay might be your friend here.

Title: Re: Cavalry recommendations: Gallic, Numidian, Roman
Post by: Ockius on April 01, 2020, 04:12:25 PM
Foundry do some nice Numidian cavalry, whih are slightly smaller then Victrix, so should probably fit well.  They also do some Greek cavalry in the older range.  Again should fit well as should the Macedonians especially the Thracians.

Warlord Games have taken over the Warlord Factory lines but I am not sure if the Gallic cavalry are still availabe.  Ebay might be your friend here.

Thanks, I might opt for the Foundry stuff. I do like their models, though the price tag is relatively hefty!
Title: Re: Cavalry recommendations: Gallic, Numidian, Roman
Post by: rumacara on April 01, 2020, 06:37:13 PM
You have lots of Gallic cavalry from Foundry and they are the same size as the germans.

https://www.wargamesfoundry.com/collections/gauls
Title: Re: Cavalry recommendations: Gallic, Numidian, Roman
Post by: bluewillow on April 01, 2020, 09:15:44 PM
I really like the crusader Numidians, Germans, Celts and Romans (although native Roman cavalry had disappeared at this stage IMHO)

Cheers
Matt
Title: Re: Cavalry recommendations: Gallic, Numidian, Roman
Post by: WuZhuiQiu on April 02, 2020, 12:05:37 PM
Might there have been small units of native Roman or Italian cavalry within Italy and Sicily, as bodyguards, escorts, and road patrols, or on latifundia?
Title: Re: Cavalry recommendations: Gallic, Numidian, Roman
Post by: Ockius on April 02, 2020, 02:14:04 PM
You have lots of Gallic cavalry from Foundry and they are the same size as the germans.

https://www.wargamesfoundry.com/collections/gauls

Thanks, the size thing was something I wanted to be sure of before forking out.
Title: Re: Cavalry recommendations: Gallic, Numidian, Roman
Post by: Wiegraf on April 03, 2020, 07:39:13 AM
Could still use victrix Numidians. They are considerably smaller than the rest of the Victoria cavalry. I am in agreement with you - Their cavalry is ridiculously oversized for 28mm even against their own infantry. But their Numidians were done right.



(https://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=112896.0;attach=88343;image)

But since you're trying to match the forces you already have, Foundry is probably ideal. You could head swap some of the victrix Numidian cavalry too if you want to convert some greeks.
Title: Re: Cavalry recommendations: Gallic, Numidian, Roman
Post by: SteveBurt on April 03, 2020, 08:48:35 AM
Foundry Gallic and Numidian cavalry are really nice figures
Title: Re: Cavalry recommendations: Gallic, Numidian, Roman
Post by: Ockius on April 03, 2020, 09:27:35 AM
Could still use victrix Numidians. They are considerably smaller than the rest of the Victoria cavalry. I am in agreement with you - Their cavalry is ridiculously oversized for 28mm even against their own infantry. But their Numidians were done right.



(https://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=112896.0;attach=88343;image)

But since you're trying to match the forces you already have, Foundry is probably ideal. You could head swap some of the victrix Numidian cavalry too if you want to convert some greeks.

Thanks, that's reassuring. I didn't want to take a punt on Victrix only to find that my reputedly very light and nimble pony-riding Numidians were chunkier than my heavy impact horsemen! That would have just looked silly  ??? I think I might go Victrix for my Numidians then, and Foundry for some more Gauls.
Title: Re: Cavalry recommendations: Gallic, Numidian, Roman
Post by: seldon on April 03, 2020, 02:58:26 PM
Agema also has nice numidians:

https://agemaminiatures.co.uk/shop/numidian-cavalry/

I plan to use Victrix and Agema to have a nice mix...
Title: Re: Cavalry recommendations: Gallic, Numidian, Roman
Post by: SJWi on April 03, 2020, 04:14:29 PM
What about Warlord's Numidian light cavalry? Nice sculpts and fit well with the Foundry figures.
Title: Re: Cavalry recommendations: Gallic, Numidian, Roman
Post by: Ockius on April 04, 2020, 02:48:08 PM
Yes thanks guys, I now have the Warlord and Agema Numidians also on my shortlist!
Title: Re: Cavalry recommendations: Gallic, Numidian, Roman
Post by: seldon on April 04, 2020, 06:54:02 PM
Awesome... two things I like about AGEMA

they look different than many others.. maybe they look more civilized? So you can mix them with others to represent veteran troops.. ( which for Clash of Spears is important as in the list we have the differentiated )..

And the other thing I like.. those holders for javelins that they carry !!
Title: Re: Cavalry recommendations: Gallic, Numidian, Roman
Post by: AdamPHayes on April 04, 2020, 08:25:46 PM
The Foundry Numidians are excellent, from the Caesarian Roman range. Sadly the Companion range, which matched them perfectly havenít been around for a long time.
Title: Re: Cavalry recommendations: Gallic, Numidian, Roman
Post by: wmyers on April 05, 2020, 07:47:45 AM
How could Victrix even sell those Roman cavalry?!

It looks like a man on a child's Merry-go-round horse...
Title: Re: Cavalry recommendations: Gallic, Numidian, Roman
Post by: Burnin Coal on April 05, 2020, 10:06:06 AM


It looks like a man on a child's Merry-go-round horse...

I am no expert by anybodyís stretch of the imagination but I seem to recall reading that the horses used by the Romans were way smaller than what we have become used to seeing...If I remember correctly they were cited as being closer in size to a modern day pony, which would equate to the proportions you describe
Title: Re: Cavalry recommendations: Gallic, Numidian, Roman
Post by: wmyers on April 05, 2020, 09:14:32 PM
I am no expert by anybodyís stretch of the imagination but I seem to recall reading that the horses used by the Romans were way smaller than what we have become used to seeing...If I remember correctly they were cited as being closer in size to a modern day pony, which would equate to the proportions you describe

How tall is the figure.

(Look at the 28mm Numidian pictured with it.)

https://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=112896.0
Title: Re: Cavalry recommendations: Gallic, Numidian, Roman
Post by: Burnin Coal on April 05, 2020, 09:41:55 PM
How tall is the figure.

(Look at the 28mm Numidian pictured with it.)

https://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=112896.0

 :o....and then of course there is the photo  lol .....I did say I wasnít an expert  ;)
Title: Re: Cavalry recommendations: Gallic, Numidian, Roman
Post by: WuZhuiQiu on April 06, 2020, 01:44:18 PM
How tall is the figure.

(Look at the 28mm Numidian pictured with it.)

https://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=112896.0

If only I might have seen that thread *before* ordering...  :o
Title: Re: Cavalry recommendations: Gallic, Numidian, Roman
Post by: wmyers on April 06, 2020, 05:03:00 PM
I was thinking of ordering the EIR Cavalry and the Gallic Cavalry sets myself. 

I was hoping they would be the same size as the Numidian cavalry.

I really think we need to see more comparisons.
Title: Re: Cavalry recommendations: Gallic, Numidian, Roman
Post by: Burnin Coal on April 06, 2020, 10:35:20 PM

I really think we need to see more comparisons.

Thanks to my Clash of Spears Kickstarter I have  RoR ,Gallic Cavalry and Numidian cavalry on the assembly line....will get a side by side shot up tomorrow  ;)
Title: Re: Cavalry recommendations: Gallic, Numidian, Roman
Post by: Tonhel on April 07, 2020, 06:55:33 AM
Thanks to my Clash of Spears Kickstarter I have  RoR ,Gallic Cavalry and Numidian cavalry on the assembly line....will get a side by side shot up tomorrow  ;)

Great!
Title: Re: Cavalry recommendations: Gallic, Numidian, Roman
Post by: Burnin Coal on April 07, 2020, 03:17:37 PM
Ok....so.....Victrix cavalry straight off the sprue

left to right - Gallic Cavalry, Republic of Rome, Numidian....in the second photo I placed the Numidian horse between the Gaul on the left and Roman on the right
Title: Re: Cavalry recommendations: Gallic, Numidian, Roman
Post by: aphillathehun on April 07, 2020, 08:40:18 PM

Yeah, the Victrix gallic cavalry are ginormous.  The riders are much larger than the men on foot - bent to ride on the horse they are still as tall.

When I get to doing cav for my Gauls I'll go with the Foundry ones.  I friend of mine has a bunch and they are nice figs.
Title: Re: Cavalry recommendations: Gallic, Numidian, Roman
Post by: wmyers on April 08, 2020, 12:20:22 AM
I suppose in separate units they may not be that noticeable.

Iíd like ones I can mix in with my current ones.

I wonder if the EIR cavalry are as big?

Are the heads for the mounted Republican Romans and Gaul Cavalry larger then the foot figures?
Title: Re: Cavalry recommendations: Gallic, Numidian, Roman
Post by: Hu Rhu on April 08, 2020, 09:58:05 AM
I suppose in separate units they may not be that noticeable.

Iíd like ones I can mix in with my current ones.

I wonder if the EIR cavalry are as big?

Are the heads for the mounted Republican Romans and Gaul Cavalry larger then the foot figures?

I think that in separate units the cavalry will look fine, even more so when you consider that the different types (Numidians, Roman, Gallic etc) were never mixed but often fought as separare wings or contingents.

I don't know about the EIR cavalry but I am guessing they are the same size as the Roman Republicans.

The heads for all the figures both foot and horse all match and are interchangeable.  For example, I have added Roman and Italian heads to their Greek cavalry and they match fine.

Here are soem comparison shots I made just now:

First up the cavalry from the left: Spanish, Gallic, Roman Republican.

(https://i1304.photobucket.com/albums/s540/garybourne/Comparison%20Shot%203_zpsknfitfvv.jpg) (https://s1304.photobucket.com/user/garybourne/media/Comparison%20Shot%203_zpsknfitfvv.jpg.html)

As you can see the Spanish and Gallic match perfectly with the RR a little larger.  However some of the RR figures in the box are even larger and can look out of proportion.

Next are the same nations' foot, from left: Roman, Spanish and Gallic. 

(https://i1304.photobucket.com/albums/s540/garybourne/Comparison%20Shot%202_zpsixvc6jnt.jpg) (https://s1304.photobucket.com/user/garybourne/media/Comparison%20Shot%202_zpsixvc6jnt.jpg.html)

As you can see there has been some very minor scale creep between the Roman and the others but not too noticable and not detectable at all on the table, again when figures are in separate units/contingents.

Finally a shot with the cavalry and foot of the same nations. From left; Spanish, Gallic, Roman

(https://i1304.photobucket.com/albums/s540/garybourne/Comparison%20Shot%201_zpsnui7oydo.jpg) (https://s1304.photobucket.com/user/garybourne/media/Comparison%20Shot%201_zpsnui7oydo.jpg.html)

As you can see all the cavalry have slightly longer legs than their infantry counterparts, but this makes them sit well on their horses and does not look out of place on the table. However the difference in proportions of the Romans are very noticable and this makes them look very odd and out of place, even when separated.

I think that this is because both the EIR and Republican cavalry share common bodies and parts and thus have been made to fit the Republican series, rather than the Punic wars stuff.

This scale creep within a range is one area where Victrix should be considered poor, especially since they are designed in CAD and should therefore be perfectly able to keep it out of the equation.

That said, their products are the best on the market and I guess that this doesn't deter the average wargamer from buying their products.
Title: Re: Cavalry recommendations: Gallic, Numidian, Roman
Post by: Burnin Coal on April 08, 2020, 10:35:23 AM
@Hu Rhu - great info - thanks for that...I agree that as units are unlikely to mix they still work well overall on a table...

I believe that scale creep from CAD can occasionally be a bit of a thing* as another manufacturer I collect had to retool when one of their post render figures came back almost half the size of the rest of their range

*if I recall correctly (unlikely  lol) it was something to do with the algorithms that convert all the program Xís and 0ís into the finished item

Alternatively it might be a case of searching out a different manufacturerís horse for the Numidian rider perhaps ? Or sanding and filling all the detail off a Gaul or Roman horse to remove the saddle and blanket ? For now Iíll be keeping with Victrix as am very happy with overall quality and value for money
Title: Re: Cavalry recommendations: Gallic, Numidian, Roman
Post by: cadbren on April 14, 2020, 01:22:45 PM
A size comparison of some Gallic cavalry.

Victrix, Crusader, Relic, Foundry, Warlord Games, Warlord Games SPQR.

Last picture is a comparison of the Victrix horse with the GW LOTR horse with similar rider.
Title: Re: Cavalry recommendations: Gallic, Numidian, Roman
Post by: cadbren on April 14, 2020, 01:48:17 PM
Regarding the cavalry, the Relic and Foundry match very well but the riders aren't interchangeable due to the saddle being moulded onto the Foundry figures but on the horse of the Relic ones. Both lots of riders are quite small.
The Crusader horse is similar in size to the Victrix but thinner and the rider is smaller, particularly compared to the over long legs of the Victrix rider. The Warlord games rider is similar in size to the Crusader and Victrix riders, ignoring the Victrix leg issue but their horses are similar in size to the Relic and Foundry ones. The SPQR version horse is slightly smaller than the metal version and the riders are chunkier making them look like they're riding donkeys. A couple of the riders have their swords on their left hip for some reason.
Title: Re: Cavalry recommendations: Gallic, Numidian, Roman
Post by: Ockius on April 15, 2020, 08:29:16 AM
Thanks for the photos and info Cadbren; really helpful!

I swear I spend so much time umming and ahh-ing over which models to buy because of scale issues!

I have those Warlord SPQR ones already, a box of six and need two more to complete the unit so think Iíll use a couple of Foundry for that. Then maybe a separate unit of Crusader models too, as I have quite a few of their infantry.
Title: Re: Cavalry recommendations: Gallic, Numidian, Roman
Post by: cadbren on April 15, 2020, 11:46:08 PM
Foundry have around three different styles, done by different sculptors for their Gallic ranges.
Enemies of Rome: Gauls
Enemies of Rome: Celtic British
The Roman Empire: Republican Rome's Wars: Continental Celts

I like the heft of the Crusader guys. I recently got some A&A Celts which are done by the same guy who did the Crusader Celts so are pretty much the same range but aren't as polished looking. The riders have slightly shorter legs than the Crusader ones and don't come with the saddle moulded. The A&A horses are similar in size to foundry etc horses.

Anyone doing Crusader Celts should get the A&A ones too (especially infantry) for more variation, but their horses are much smaller.
Title: Re: Cavalry recommendations: Gallic, Numidian, Roman
Post by: Tonhel on April 16, 2020, 09:52:15 AM
Great comparison pictures!

It's shame that the scale issue happened between the Republic Roman infantry and cavalry. I only have the early Imperial Roman infantry, but how do they look compared to the early Imperial cavalry scale wise?

I do hope that Victrix is aware about the problem and will avoid it with all their new sets. Especially with the huge range of Persians and the soon to be designed Norman cavalry.
Title: Re: Cavalry recommendations: Gallic, Numidian, Roman
Post by: seldon on April 16, 2020, 02:53:11 PM
The Foundry Numidians are excellent, from the Caesarian Roman range. Sadly the Companion range, which matched them perfectly havenít been around for a long time.

And the Foundry Gauls are beautiful too... and they even have some civilians for some cool scenarios.
Title: Re: Cavalry recommendations: Gallic, Numidian, Roman
Post by: Ockius on April 17, 2020, 02:01:52 PM

Anyone doing Crusader Celts should get the A&A ones too (especially infantry) for more variation, but their horses are much smaller.

Yes, I have the exact figures - found the A&A foot perfect, as you said, and their Celtic horse figures similar in style but way too small, both the horses and riders. I class them as my light cavalry (on ponies) and use bigger models as medium cavalry.

Title: Re: Cavalry recommendations: Gallic, Numidian, Roman
Post by: Pinno on April 19, 2020, 08:14:32 AM
Great comparison pictures!

It's shame that the scale issue happened between the Republic Roman infantry and cavalry. I only have the early Imperial Roman infantry, but how do they look compared to the early Imperial cavalry scale wise?

I do hope that Victrix is aware about the problem and will avoid it with all their new sets. Especially with the huge range of Persians and the soon to be designed Norman cavalry.

This is Victrix EIR cavalry and infantry size comparison.

(https://i.imgur.com/iulzgJ9.jpg)
Title: Re: Cavalry recommendations: Gallic, Numidian, Roman
Post by: Johnp4000 on May 20, 2020, 10:52:01 AM
This is Victrix EIR cavalry and infantry size comparison.

(https://i.imgur.com/iulzgJ9.jpg)


I missed this one, can you say whether the horse is smaller than the Republican Roman version?
Title: Re: Cavalry recommendations: Gallic, Numidian, Roman
Post by: cadbren on May 25, 2020, 04:14:01 AM
The Victrix horses are the same size. I think the Numidians have smaller horses. The Gallic and Roman horses are pretty much interchangeable as they even have similar saddles.
Title: Re: Cavalry recommendations: Gallic, Numidian, Roman
Post by: Eoin OCnaimhsi on May 25, 2020, 07:51:03 AM
Pardon the non cavalry related question, how are you approaching the hoplites for Massilia. Are you adding any Kelto-Hellenic touches?

You could give them La tene swords or chainmail I suppose from the Gallic set.
Title: Re: Cavalry recommendations: Gallic, Numidian, Roman
Post by: Ockius on May 25, 2020, 07:26:48 PM
Pardon the non cavalry related question, how are you approaching the hoplites for Massilia. Are you adding any Kelto-Hellenic touches?

You could give them La tene swords or chainmail I suppose from the Gallic set.

I have taken the angle that the Greeks there were pretty solidly Greek in culture and did not assimilate much. I remember reading an article somewhere that suggested this was the case - it was countering an assumption that earlier historians had made that Massilia had a region of Gaul under its control, and ruled over areas of Gauls, which this article said more recent archaeology did not support. It seems they were very much a colony, separate from the Gallic hinterland, and did not actually influence the Gauls much or vice versa, aside from supplying them with wine and other trade goods.

Mind you, I have read that the chainmail worn by thorakitai and the shields of thureophorai were adopted from Gauls. What I basically have is two hoplite phalanxes to represent the city merchant and noble classes (traditionalist in their old-fashioned hoplite gear, perhaps hand-downs that they are clinging to a bit after it was mostly abandoned in the main Hellenic areas), some thureophoria and thorakitai to represent maybe enlisted Greek working classes or professional soldiers in the more modern gear bought for them by the Polis, and then the skirmishers and horse will be Gauls, Spanish and perhaps Numidians.

To be honest though, there is nothing in the models themselves that I have converted especially for the theme.
Title: Re: Cavalry recommendations: Gallic, Numidian, Roman
Post by: cadbren on May 26, 2020, 03:22:22 AM
They certainly influenced the Gauls, coins, wine, pottery etc. Don't know much about them other than they were a maritime power consisting of a network of Greek cities along what is now the Mediterranean coast of France - Marseilles, Monaco, Nice, Antibes plus they had cities in what is now Spain as well as Corsica.
It's unlikely they could have established colonies in Gaul if they hadn't had some kind of arrangement with the local tribes. There were probably Gauls in these cities but the city culture would have been Greek just like colonial towns in the 19th century maintained separate identities between the locals and the colonists which lasted generations as those colonies were in constant contact with a wider network of their own people. I suspect any Gallic influence would have been trade based like what the Romans adopted such as various types of wagons, the wooden barrel, various breeds of oxen and horse used for hauling.
Title: Re: Cavalry recommendations: Gallic, Numidian, Roman
Post by: Ockius on May 27, 2020, 11:55:26 PM
They certainly influenced the Gauls, coins, wine, pottery etc. Don't know much about them other than they were a maritime power consisting of a network of Greek cities along what is now the Mediterranean coast of France - Marseilles, Monaco, Nice, Antibes plus they had cities in what is now Spain as well as Corsica.
It's unlikely they could have established colonies in Gaul if they hadn't had some kind of arrangement with the local tribes. There were probably Gauls in these cities but the city culture would have been Greek just like colonial towns in the 19th century maintained separate identities between the locals and the colonists which lasted generations as those colonies were in constant contact with a wider network of their own people. I suspect any Gallic influence would have been trade based like what the Romans adopted such as various types of wagons, the wooden barrel, various breeds of oxen and horse used for hauling.

Yes, I see your point about the influence on things like coins and trade goods; I guess I overstated it when I said they did not have much influence and were not influenced much in turn. What I mean is that as far as I can see Massilia was just a city state and did not control much land; the Gauls around Massilia remained independent and remained very much Gauls - they weren't Hellenised in terms of culture or military. The same goes for the Greeks who remained Greek. Basically I don't think I need to make my Greeks look Gallic to fit the theme (more importantly I lack the inclination and skill to convert them  ;), so they'll have to do as is.)

My knowledge on this is very patchy though, so I'll defer to anyone else's authority on this.

Title: Re: Cavalry recommendations: Gallic, Numidian, Roman
Post by: WuZhuiQiu on June 10, 2020, 06:34:59 PM
So, how do the Victrix EIR cavalrymen compare with the Victrix Republican Roman cavalrymen, or with the Warlord EIR cavalrymen? Are the riders giants?