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Miniatures Adventure => Fantasy Adventures => Topic started by: arabianknight on June 16, 2020, 12:36:07 PM

Title: Thinking About Orcs
Post by: arabianknight on June 16, 2020, 12:36:07 PM
Despite having done fantasy roleplaying and wargaming for over 2 decades my son was surprised to find that I only have one single painted Orc (see the sad example below). This both is surprising but expected to myself. I've have a problem knuckling down to Orcs, despite them are a most obvious foe after the ubiquitous undead.

(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-ZUFdlqQmjYc/XtexCAjJUwI/AAAAAAAAKko/d1qRyMlL_GE1XvNH0oWVvQZAK_sthp0cACK4BGAsYHg/DSCF1110.JPG)

One problem is finding a style I like. I've never liked the Games Workshop style of Orc - which begs the question well what do I like? Again it comes down to "what sort of Orc do you want?". There are Savage, barely clothed types, varieties in complex armour and a whole variety of body types, sizes and facial features. I doubt there's a fantasy race with so many different interpretations.

And then there is the skin colour. I'm no scholar, so I need to ask - who planted the description of the "Greenskin". I don't think it's a Tolkien thing, so my guess is Dungeons and Dragons (from what I can remember from old artwork). The bright cartoon neon G.W. choices just put me off completely, but I've trouble thinking up and combination I like.

It's not as if there aren't any Orcs lurking in my lead pile. Many different sizes, ages and styles have been picked up through half baked purchases and job lots, which has made it more difficult to rinse through my collection and make a start on a force.

So I've decided, as an ongoing bit of fun, to gradually try out different skin combinations on the unsuspecting models in the cupboard. They would make up unfocused crowd anyway, so having a range of skin tones shouldn't make much more difference!

(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-3qHGFEp5UO8/XtewxXLuqII/AAAAAAAAKkU/ImswVUrG8CQfqhCUhnbNZNGjF3zmDnZuwCK4BGAsYHg/DSCF1111.JPG)

First example of this is here. I have no idea what manufacturer this is from, so if anyone can enlighten my I would be grateful. He looks prime for appearing around a dungeon corner, and I love the single snaggletooth. For this example the skin base is Citadel Doombull Brown, then layered with Citadel Calthan Brown and highlighted with a mix of Calthan Brown and Game Colour Heavy Ochre.
Title: Re: Thinking About Orcs
Post by: Hobgoblin on June 16, 2020, 01:23:57 PM
And then there is the skin colour. I'm no scholar, so I need to ask - who planted the description of the "Greenskin". I don't think it's a Tolkien thing, so my guess is Dungeons and Dragons (from what I can remember from old artwork). The bright cartoon neon G.W. choices just put me off completely, but I've trouble thinking up and combination I like.

Yes, Tolkien describes his orcs as 'swart' and 'sallow' - though only the latter is definitely a skin description. He says that one small orc in Mordor is 'black-skinned', but that seems to be a feature that distinguishes it from other orcs.

The green skin appeared in some 70s illustrations of Tolkien's work - like Tim Kirk's The Road to Minas Tirith from 1975:

(http://img-fan.theonering.net/%7Erolozo/images/kirk/road.jpg)

The Hildebrandt brothers also did some green (and reptilian-looking!) orcs in the 70s:

(http://corecanvas.s3.amazonaws.com/theonering-0188db0e/gallery/original/captured_by_orcs.jpg)

The idea of green goblins is a bit older, though - there's Spiderman's foe, of course, but also the green goblins in Poul Anderson's The Broken Sword, which was published in 1954, the same year as The Lord of the Rings.

And then there are various 'green men' and green-skinned fairies in folklore.

So it may be that 'green' was just considered a default colour for goblins and one that illustrators reached for if they hadn't read Tolkien's text very closely.

D&D's orcs don't really resemble Tolkien's at all (other than tribal names and hostility towards each other), but early illustrations, including those in the 1977 Monster Manual, certainly owe something to the Hildebrandts' orcs. The Monster Manual says that orcs are blueish-green with pinkish snouts.

Oddly enough, GW/Citadel orcs weren't always green in the early 80s - at least not bright green. "Olive" and "dark brown" are mentioned in early Warhammer, and some of the staff painted theirs a deep red. And the first Citadel Paint set was advertised with a Black Mountain boy painted in European human skintones. John Blanche's cover for the second edition of Warhammer had orcs of the brightest green, though.

Your new orc looks good! Not sure where he's from - maybe Metal Magic?
Title: Re: Thinking About Orcs
Post by: Hobgoblin on June 16, 2020, 01:56:00 PM
So I've decided, as an ongoing bit of fun, to gradually try out different skin combinations on the unsuspecting models in the cupboard. They would make up unfocused crowd anyway, so having a range of skin tones shouldn't make much more difference!

I meant to add that that sounds a great idea. It also gives you the potential to develop a number of different tribes. I always find this handy in RPGs, because it automatically adds a bit of variety to encounters: "Wait - are these orcs Grinning Moon or Bloody Tusk like the ones we fought in the caves? Or something else?".
Title: Re: Thinking About Orcs
Post by: scatterbrains on June 16, 2020, 02:08:39 PM
These are the sort of things blue hobgoblins know best  :D

I'm gonna have to make this decision with my Battle for Skull Pass goblins, best keep an eye on what you come up with!
Title: Re: Thinking About Orcs
Post by: arabianknight on June 16, 2020, 07:44:54 PM
That, Hobgoblin, was a much more comprehensive answer than I was expecting. Thank you - most interesting!  :-*

Your point about the different tribes is a good one as well. I'll have to bare that in mind when pulling victim's out of the pile and try and group some of them together.
Title: Re: Thinking About Orcs
Post by: armchairgeneral on June 16, 2020, 09:41:32 PM
I can’t  really relate the wild chaotic look of many orc figures.

For Middle-Earth, orcs were bred to be soldiers so would surely would have a regular appearance being issued with mass produced standardised weapons and armour?

As for skin tone, I used to paint mind a khaki colour which seemed to look good.
Title: Re: Thinking About Orcs
Post by: AzSteven on June 16, 2020, 10:43:59 PM
The Tim Kirk painting has long been how I pictured orcs, but it was a while before I saw a color version of that illustration, so my late-70s orcs were often a dark olive, brown or khaki in color. 

Nowadays I tend to do ruddy brown almost to black, or a muddy olive.  I have started painting orcs for an RPG campaign set in Middle Earth I hope to start running in December, and there are three tribes/bands involved; each has a different appearance and skin-tone.  One is based on GW LOTR movie orcs, one on the new Oathmark goblins, and one on a selection of old Heritage LOTR movie orcs.  Each will have different skin tones - ruddy dark brown for the GW orcs, olive for the Oathmark orcs and dark brown/black for the old Heritage orcs
Title: Re: Thinking About Orcs
Post by: FierceKitty on June 17, 2020, 03:55:49 AM
I'm always bothered by the eyes. A nocturnal race should have big, cute bushbaby eyes, surely?
Title: Re: Thinking About Orcs
Post by: arabianknight on June 26, 2020, 07:28:19 PM
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-GCqFQk2lGsY/XvZJKzwD1UI/AAAAAAAAKvE/pXE3wQkVsdI4jfbDvtuRgGwOT_XfN65owCK4BGAsYHg/s670/orc2.JPG)


Second Orc completed in this side project. I want to say he's an Alternative Armies figure by the style, but I can't find him on their site so I don't know (part of the job lot source).

EDIT: He's a "Mon-Oger" by Standard Miniatures. Thanks to Greg on the Alternative Armies FB page for his help

For skin tone this one couldn't be easier: White primer and Vallejo Game Ink black green. Literally that's it. I thought I'd better give his clothes a strong colour otherwise he'd look a bit washed out.
Title: Re: Thinking About Orcs
Post by: Hobgoblin on June 27, 2020, 12:53:30 PM
Nice work!

I think he's a Mon-oger from Standard Games (http://www.miniatures-workshop.com/lostminiswiki/index.php?title=Mercenaries_from_the_Age_of_Dark_Blades). They did a range of orc-like creatures, some of whom were riding sabre-toothed tigers. This guy, I think, is B30: Mon-oger,  two-handed axe. I wonder if your earlier orc might be B28: Mon-oger, mace from the same range.

The Mon-oger range is still in production at Magister Militum: here's B30 (https://www.magistermilitum.com/orc8-orc-with-two-handed-axe.html). I can't see the guy with the two-handed club, but I suppose he might be the unphotographed one labelled 'savage orc'.

Title: Re: Thinking About Orcs
Post by: arabianknight on July 14, 2020, 08:29:07 PM
The Mon-oger range is still in production at Magister Militum: here's B30 (https://www.magistermilitum.com/orc8-orc-with-two-handed-axe.html). I can't see the guy with the two-handed club, but I suppose he might be the unphotographed one labelled 'savage orc'.

Thanks Hg, it's nice to see that som eof the range are still available. Also between the Lost Minis' wiki and Magiister Militum I've managged to ID a few other figures in the Orc box.
Title: Re: Thinking About Orcs
Post by: arabianknight on July 14, 2020, 08:41:43 PM
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-BxAmy1VY2Uc/Xw4Ojc13MuI/AAAAAAAAK04/dAK_9Ny5LY0NPY-_kO_tRq0jWDJtRWABgCLcBGAsYHQ/s1600/DSCF1114.JPG)

Orc 3, and you're not going to get more classivc than a 1980's Grenadier Orc. The higher lead content from this era means I lost count of how many times the halbard blade came off (OK, 4 if you're asking and I know only the first one counts againt the metal!)

After a comment about khaki skinned orcs I thought I'd give that option a go, especially as the idea seemed to matcxh with early artwork of orcs.

To be honest my attempt hasn't come out as well as I'd hoped. The base khaki with deepening washes hasn't given the muted khaki tones I'd hoped (details below of what was used). I do have a couple more orcs from this range, so I'll continue with the khaki theme for them as well but maybe change the process, probably building up to a khaki layer rather than relying on washes to bring depth. Oh, and the deapset eyes had the wash run into them. Not the best execution ever!

Even with the slightly less than desired end result it's good to get this figure painted. I like the sculpt a lot more than I did before any paint was applied, and despite being slightly small by modern standard he's my favourite "general warband" figure so far.

Skin details:

Base: Colours of War Khaki
Wash: Game Ink black\green
Wash: Gsme Color Sepia
Highlight: Colours of War Khaki
Title: Re: Thinking About Orcs
Post by: scatterbrains on July 15, 2020, 01:04:09 PM
Nice one, I've never worked with lead minis!

Thanks for sharing the skin recipe too ;)
Title: Re: Thinking About Orcs
Post by: Brandlin on July 15, 2020, 02:39:14 PM
I love those grenadier orcs... nick lund sculpts - i have " a few"
I think the skin tone isn't as khaki as you hoped because the ink you have usedis very saturated so its green-ened the whole skin. I'd suggest you either use a dark flesh or mid brown wash to go with the khaki, or if you want the green tinge then water the wash down a lot.
Title: Re: Thinking About Orcs
Post by: arabianknight on July 17, 2020, 12:00:47 PM
I love those grenadier orcs... nick lund sculpts - i have " a few"
I think the skin tone isn't as khaki as you hoped because the ink you have usedis very saturated so its green-ened the whole skin. I'd suggest you either use a dark flesh or mid brown wash to go with the khaki, or if you want the green tinge then water the wash down a lot.

Yes I think you're right. I'll avoid the green ink for my second try and maybe used a flesh wash as needed. We'll see how I do... ???
Title: Re: Thinking About Orcs
Post by: arabianknight on September 18, 2020, 10:57:15 AM
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-Dn_04eYwp-s/X2SCT7CxQ_I/AAAAAAAALSg/PRzu68k4_-QdgfZIihatK0xR8hbIgSpaQCLcBGAsYHQ/s800/Citadel_OrcChampion.JPG)

Staying with the classics theme I picked an 80's Citadel Orc Champion as my next victim. In an "old meets new" way I thought I'd brave some G.W. Contrast Orc Flesh on him. The results were poor, with the heavy pigments saturating even the generous muscular sculpting of this veteran. So out came an old citadel paint. I don't know what the colour's name is as it is 25+ years old and came in a box set so had no label on it! It has brought the flesh up to a bright old school green which is quite effective with the dark contrast paint still in the deep crevices  - so big grins all round!

I'll need to source a shield for him later.
Title: Re: Thinking About Orcs
Post by: Sir_Theo on September 18, 2020, 12:19:51 PM
Enjoying the thread!

My favourite way of painting green Orcs is a yellow wash over white, followed by a green wash. Gives a nice tone. Im always quite partial to other colour Orcs too, Blue, Red and of course Khaku, can all look great.
Title: Re: Thinking About Orcs
Post by: arabianknight on September 18, 2020, 08:12:01 PM
Thanks, Sir_Theo,

I'll have to try that wash method. Not one I'd come across. Sounds nice and quick too, a bonus since it's taken me weeks to finish the last one!!  ;D
Title: Re: Thinking About Orcs
Post by: Macunaima on September 18, 2020, 09:03:21 PM
The best take on orcs that I have ever read is in the six issues of the comic book “Orc Stain”, available for Kindle or Comixology at a buck a piece.

Heavily influenced by GW orcs, these are definitely R-rated creatures (just for starters, they cut off each other’s genitals when the can and dice them up for coins. Teef? Nutin’ doin’. Gronches is where it’s at). It’s a very original spin on the race, however, and the artwork is beautiful. A great buy for six bucks!
Title: Re: Thinking About Orcs
Post by: SotF on September 18, 2020, 10:00:15 PM
Most of my orcs are more of a dark brown to red brown skin tone.

I think that a lot of the color tropes in minis came from early on where it was, mainly, skin colors that marked they were orcs...same as hobgoblins tended to be the red coloration, often using roman minis for them. Orcs ended up green there...
Title: Re: Thinking About Orcs
Post by: arabianknight on May 11, 2022, 08:07:56 PM
(https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgtXBgkc8n656GEL-Q0gYNojUjIhDgzcPtF8yNVmGLdb9WAUsrSVhjK_pzXXhXfu7wLOPSbt_ZrM3NlcoyZ9y_oLK_ERezrp2ECWI---BImqsMaj3lI_0ox2QiFZX6UuhaWS1kveLpDqUBfFUhsOMJZ-mN70mXnpjg-V8CydobU05c68XKdZlwIMHWp/s800/Mon-Oger_Archer.jpg)

Go, go project Necromancy!

My Orc painting project came to a sudden halt with this lad, A Standard Miniatures Mon-Oger Archer. Ironically I was trying to follow a suggestion and use just washes. "Nice and quick" I thought, but I just couldn't get it to look good and eventually lost the impetus.

Well after about 19 months (how time flies!) of ignoring him later, actually managed to knuckle down and finish! The skin, which was the point of the project, formula is long forgotten, but at least I feel I can move on again...
Title: Re: Thinking About Orcs
Post by: arabianknight on May 16, 2022, 10:17:09 AM
(https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEh3XbgZXlgs5Nf66FwnZrXQ1DjzYVHzDTecSlTmTw0ojb6Nc5qX6N87aHqzr94yAHxl8-VIGHk1giq3dwRLR1PJZ-HrcDc1zPX7H_-mG63eRy7uxuWmV0VT5UX0Ul7aANYjXIE6W9NbFml-s1N8YReIpvjLgukJlg1_-tq_A-umKwAsmOfeMOvnoX76/s800/RalPartha_Orc.jpg)
I've just started stocking these Orcs in the shop ( https://skirmish-supplies.co.uk/page/search-results&keyword=RPE-02- (https://skirmish-supplies.co.uk/page/search-results&keyword=RPE-02-) ) - Ral Partha Gargantuan Orcs. Big, gnarly and savage looking. I really like them. When they came in I thought I'd quickly paint one up to show. So a black prime and a white zenithal highlight like all the cool kids are doing now before using Games Workshop Fyreslayer Flesh Contrast. It's resulted in a mean, dark finish which I like, but I may try a similar but different priming method to compare with on my next Orc.
Title: Re: Thinking About Orcs
Post by: Diablo Jon on May 16, 2022, 11:26:48 AM
I do like those Bob Olley orcs and I like the Dark brooding look you've given him.

I really need three Orc and Goblin armies. One for Bob Olley sculpts, one for Nick Lund sculpts and one for Perry twins/ Kev Adams sculpts. I love all three but they never, to my eyes, look right mixed together.
Title: Re: Thinking About Orcs
Post by: arabianknight on May 16, 2022, 02:38:48 PM
I do like those Bob Olley orcs and I like the Dark brooding look you've given him.

I really need three Orc and Goblin armies. One for Bob Olley sculpts, one for Nick Lund sculpts and one for Perry twins/ Kev Adams sculpts. I love all three but they never, to my eyes, look right mixed together.

Yes I know, either you give up like I have in this thread or you find one with a large enough range! Best do the Kev Adam's one last though, that's a never ending project!!  o_o
Title: Re: Thinking About Orcs
Post by: Elbows on May 16, 2022, 03:49:28 PM
I really like the collection of Reaper orcs I picked up a few years back, I think from the Dungeon Dweller line.  The same ones should be released in the new SioCast (Bones USA), etc.

(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-CRWHhX5xc9I/XTsnpr0KMRI/AAAAAAAAFKo/Os_rOLhgFZk7h3ePVz6aHysmD6Ei54bawCLcBGAs/s1600/orcs3.JPG)

(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-lyUYzAOIrTk/XTsndHfOBnI/AAAAAAAAFKg/NKzVOySHn70MxAiRGdDzR2oBI9RkRLqGgCLcBGAs/s1600/orcs2.JPG)

They're excellent.  Mine are metal, but I'll be adding to them with the Bones USA ones if/when they show up.

Title: Re: Thinking About Orcs
Post by: Cacique Caribe on May 17, 2022, 08:40:18 AM
Elbows

That’s a fantastic group of figures you have there.  Beautifully painted too!

Dan
Title: Re: Thinking About Orcs
Post by: arabianknight on May 17, 2022, 12:36:25 PM
Elbows

facially they remind me of the Warlords Of Erehwon Orcs, but with more heft. Very Nice!
Title: Re: Thinking About Orcs
Post by: arabianknight on June 15, 2022, 08:51:52 PM
(https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhcKugRZ_0qf0Oz8CWPB8xl-slZLEG6Ou9_ttL8QVNwuVMPvmbEHv26gkOwYnuyJ6c4Hd2Cb22Uj5AIK7prjidHkvlF2Y-8aGxwSU2ztYlzoWZu1FKY3B-vYs-YtXOmpe-MmJwL4oGzgCNfGV1s-JpsslNbmFzKVhkxpOoqUBuprkqkM_81d0XaYFoU/s600/IMG20220615091519.jpg)

A Grenadier Orc with Halberd. As I hinted at in the previous orc, I gave this one an intermediate angled prime of grey between the black and white zenithal before following mostly the same colour scheme to see if it would be a bit less dark. It seems to have worked to a certain extent, the large amount of chain mail on this lad maybe lessens the impact. One thing I've taken from this figure however is that I'm going back to doing normal eyes, not just red fill. I much prefer it.