Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => The Conflicts that came in from the Cold => Topic started by: 10thMountain on October 04, 2020, 01:21:03 PM
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Hello,
I was wondering if anyone has gamed the British Vietminh War 1945-1946. I saw a video on youtube that has peeked my interest.
Thank you
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Hi
Take a look at the www.orkneywargames.com site. On there you will find a game report dated 6th April 2020 entitled "Ambush on the Tu Duam Road 1945" which features a VietMinh ambush on a column containing General Gracey.
Enjoy
Sapper
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To fight Vietnam in 1945 you need
Empire Jungle troops with 44 pattern webbing, MK1 No3 rifle, Bren and Sten. Vickers MMG. Both 2" & 3" mortars. Some Artillery (25pdr or 3.7"mountain). Broad brimmed hat or tin helmet with wide netting. All Indian or Gurkha troops, with British Officers. No British Infantry Regts possibly RN landing party/escort and definitely some RAF Regt (2 sqdns IIRC) at Tan Son Nhut airport.
Japanese infantry with skeleton webbing. Rifle/LMG/GL type 89(?).
For Viet Minh any figures with local clothing or uniform shirt and shorts in Khaki Drill. Either ex-French rifle (M1902 fusil Indochinois (I shorten this) or ex-Japanese. Possibly some Sten and Bren (ex-Chinese Nationalist out of Canada in 8mm Mauser). Some hand weapons only and Grenades.
Japanese fought on both sides and Viet Minh maybe led by Japanese officer "advisor".
20th Indian Div units had most standard vehicles, no mules were shipped. Unusual vehicle was Coventry Arms Cars of Indian 16th light Cav.
Hope this helps.
Any skirmish game rules. Will do.
Cheers
John
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Which raises the natural question.. who has gamed the Battle of Surabaya, or for that matter, who has gamed the fighting between the British and EAM-ELAS in Athens in late 1944?*
Inquiring minds must know.
* Warning: Contains paras and Sherman tanks.
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If you can get a copy of this there's a very interesting section on the RAF Regiment involvement in Vietnam, no major battles, but some shooty stuff and joint patrols with the Japanese!
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Was it Mark Felton? If so I saw that video too. I like his channel. Lots of interesting little 10-minute videos telling me stuff I didn't know about WW2.
There was one about Italian troops stationed in China after Italy surrendered and switched sides the other day. Fascinating stuff. It did actually come to blows in at least one place, which was something I didn't know.
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What JonFoA said. Some interesting OOB are possible. How about a Gurkha company with a Japanese platoon attached against OSS equipped Viet Minh?
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JohnFoA
As I understand it, the 16th (Indian) Cavalry Regiment was NOT equipped with Coventry Armoured Cars, but rather with Daimlers and Humbers. The Coventry was designed to be a replacement for both these, but the war ended shortly after the initial production run was completed. Subsequent orders were cancelled. I believe the French bought up the initial production run of the Coventry Armoured Cars (maybe around 100 vehicles), but found the vehicle was too heavy (at around 11.5 tons) for their requirement in Indochina. and it was gradually withdrawn from service, to be replaced by the American M8 Greyhound Armoured Car which was more than 2,5 tons lighter. By 1953-54, Some 600 M8/M20 cars were in French service. Although the Coventry cars were withdrawn, their turrets were widely used on the river monitors of the French riverine Dinassault units, and some were used on the blockhouses of the de Lattre line. There is a well know photograph of the 16th's Humber cars driving on parade through Saigon with Union flags draped over the front.
Sapper
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Sounds good, thank you.
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In Burma the 16th Light Cavalry's 'Humbers' mostly appear to have been Foxes (identical to a Humber Mk III, but mechanically different and armed with Browning .50 & .30 Cal instead of Besa 15mm & 7.92mm). I've no idea if this was still the case in Vietnam.
I once read of the Gurkhas in Vietnam being equipped with 3.5-inch Super-Bazookas rather than PIATs, with one being used to blow the doors off a fortified building, but I'm not sure how accurate that is.
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Hi Jemima
You could well be right in that the Humbers used in Indochina are actually Foxes. I can only find one photograph of three cars on a parade in Saigon, and on closer examination, they do look like they are Browning armed. Unfortunately all the accounts I've read just refer to "Humbers" !!! Do you know if there is Regimental History for the 16th (Indian) Light Cavalry Regiment ?
Certainly the cars did sterling work in supporting the three infantry Brigades of the 20th (Indian) Division in combating the Vietminh in the Saigon area.
Sapper
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Hi Jemima
I've had a re-think, and wonder if the Armoured Cars were in fact Humber MkIVs ?
Sapper
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Sorry, my mistake. I was thinking of the 11th PAVO, not the 16th LC. They had 'Humbers', describing them as making excellent regiment and squadron command cars, as they had a three man turret and being armed with Browning MGs, meant that the third seat in the turret could be taken by a dedicated radio operator instead of a loader. That might mean Humber Mk III, but the mention of Brownings suggests Fox.
There is a regimental history for 16th LC by Lt Col Proudfoot, but I've never managed to get hold of a copy. Most of the info comes from Sandhu's history of the Indian Armoured Corps and various odds and sods. The Indian Armoured Corps did certainly receive some Mk IVs and the 16th LC is described as having a mixed establishment of Daimlers and Humbers (7th KGVO and 11th PAVO are described as 'all-Daimler', though the PAVO clearly had some 'Humbers' as command cars, as mentioned above). A photo of a 16th LC squadron column near Meiktila shows a wall of Daimlers, which would suggest that the Humbers and Daimlers were in distinct squadrons rather than mixed, but other than that I've not got a lot, sorry.
Something else worth mentioning is that the 16th LC in Burma operated with a mixed squadron organisation of 2x Armoured Car Troops, three Jeep Troops and a Mortar Troop (the latter having SP 3-inch mortars mounted in India Pattern Wheeled Carriers). They were still using this organisation in July 1944, so I wonder if they were still organised like this when transferred to Vietnam?
Another curious nugget of info is that the 7th Light Cavalry in 1944 is listed as having 13x Daimler Armoured Cars, 4x Lynx Scout Cars and 18x Fox Armoured Cars on strength at Imphal. However, aside from some scout cars in the Recce Troop, the 7th Light Cavalry didn't operate armoured cars! I can only assume that the unit they belonged to was mis-identified, or they were being maintained by 7th Light Cavalry for another unit?
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Two other decent books that cover the end or war/post war era in the East Asian/Pasicfic conflict are. Mountbatten's Samurai: Imperial Japanese Army and Navy Forces under British Control in Southeast Asia, 1945-1948, and In the Ruins of Empire: The Japanese Surrender and the Battle for Postwar Asia.
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Hi Jemima
The 16th (Indian) Light Cavalry were an Army level asset, being from the 14th Army. I would suggest that they were allocated to Gracey's 20th (Indian) Division to give him some (light) armoured support - useful in dealing with the numerous roadblocks set up by the Vietminh. In all of the accounts I have read, only B Squadron of the Regiment is mentioned, and I wonder if only this one Squadron was deployed to French Indochina. The one photograph I have been able to locate clearly shows the B squadron identification square on the side of the Humber turrets. I also wonder if B Squadron only took Mk IV cars with them as they were equipped with the more powerful (and reliable) 37mm main gun. The more I look at the photo of the Humbers in Saigon, the more convinced I am that they are indeed Mk IVs.
I game the Indochina war, including the early days in September/October 1945. I have British Spitfires and Mosquitos and a Japanese Oscar, all in French markings, supporting platoons of Sikhs, Ghurkhas, and Japanese. I have even recreated the Cambodian Composite Squadron equipped with captured Japanese tanks. I am working on Lt Col Dewey's OSS detachment (as mentioned by Etranger in one of the posts above).
So, it's nice to see this little known episode discussed on the Forum.
Sapper
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Ah that's interesting. Yes, if they just took one squadron they'd probably be able to rearrange it as they saw fit by taking elements from other squadrons.
I agree that Humber IVs would be a better tactical choice, as the 37mm had a better (and more readily available) HE round than the Daimler's 2pdr and was equipped with canister rounds, which proved most useful in Burma (for clearing vegetation to open lines of fire and expose bunkers, as well as dealing with infantry in the open).
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Chris Kempton's 'Loyalty and Honour' doesn't go into any detail re Vietnam beyond listing the dates and units deployed to Vietnam, but it does say that the entire 16th Light Cavalry was assigned to 20th Division from October 1945 to February 1946. The full orbat looks like this:
32 Bde (left at the end of Dec 45)
80 Bde (left Jan 46)
100 Bde (left between 28 Jan and 7 Feb 46)
16th Light Cavalry Regt
114 Field Regt RA (25pdr)
23 Mountain Regt RIA (3.7-inch Mountain Howitzer)
MG Bn/9th Jat Regt (Div MG Bn)
2/8th Punjab Regt (Div Recce Bn - i.e. infantry scout battalion with minimal heavy weapons)
9/12th Frontier Force Regt (Div Defence Bn)
92 Fd Coy Royal Bombay Sappers & Miners IE
422 Fd Coy QVO Madras Sappers & Miners IE
481 Fd Coy Royal Bombay Sappers & Miners IE
332 Fd Park Coy KGO Bengal Sappers & Miners IE
Plus all the Signals, IASC, IAOC, IEME, IAMC, etc elements
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Don't forget 2963 and 2967 Sqns RAF Regiment :)
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Don't forget 2963 and 2967 Sqns RAF Regiment :)
They weren't on 20th Indian Division's books. :D
And they were probably trying to keep well away from the frightful oiks anyway... lol
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Hi all
Sorry been away - and other feeble excuses. Sapper, as supported you're quite right the Coventry came later and not with Indian troops, however two things occur to me. Somewhere I read that the Rootes group managed to flog some of these lumps to the Indians directly, most of rest went to French. So maybe some found their way from there. Although as Indian government wanted to impound stuff being used in a re-colonisation conflict maybe not.
Also and this I ask to Jemima There are many photos of Humber S/C in French service but no A/C so were they the only vehicles which Expeditionary Force 20 took away? Cos everything else inc 3.7" and 25pdr guns seem to have been left.
I would love to know the orbat of the RAF Regt Sqdns - I have two possible three in theatre. The first in was an LAA unit from a Burma/Thailand staging airfield. On indication if they took 20mmAAA but deployed as infantry off an assualt landing, being warmly greeted by the already resident and nervous erks. In a scene which was to be reflected in the USMC coming ashore some years later.
Must review the posts but thanks for the alternative 16th Lt Cav organisation.
I have developed a real enthusiasm for this period. Hummmmm figures???
There is an account of a Gurkha unit attacking a French fort held by VietMinh. Having been replused on day one the story suggests they brought up a bazooka on second day. Blew in door, charged in with drawn Kukri and dispatched the resident garrison.
This is really interesting. Thanks for the posts.
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So I was intrigued by reference to Fox A/C and a quick google (see Wiki) suggests the Dutch bought 39 Foxes but these were equipped with Humber MkIV turret. For a further twist on identification, did that happen elsewhere?
In modified TO&E mentioned Armed Car Tps. Where these just A/C or mix A/C and S/C. How where the jeeps crewed and equipped? Really interesting. The Div Recce regt. Any armoured vehicles? And how many IP carriers? That's another vehicle you don't see French with.
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This is what I have on RAF elements
Two Headquarters formed in Sept 45
At Control Commission, Saigon under AC W. Cheshire
908 Wing at Tan Son Nhut airfield – Gp Capt F.C. Sturgiss
These had ‘confusing’ responsibilities and were shortly thereafter combined into Air HQ French Indochina, formed 1 Oct 45, based at RAF Saigon (Tan Son Nhut airfield), although this was still often referred to as 908 Wing
Air units known:
273 Sqdn arrived 19th September flying Spitfires Mk VIII, replaced with Mk XIV in early November; visual reconnaissance and interdiction
Flight from 684 Sqdn with Mosquito PR.XXXIV flying Photo-recon and mapping.
Air lift Squadrons, (62, 194, 267, of 345 Wing) based in Siam with Dakotas (approx. 70 a/c)
Air Traffic Control, Ground support and cargo handling units.
98 MFCU
917 ALG
3209 Servicing Commando
Detachment RAF Regiment (arrived 1st Oct)
1307 Wing HQ (Wing Cmdr W.R. Allen)
2963 (LAA) Sqdn – deployed as infantry. Sqdn Ldr H.D. Ward, WIA 3rd Oct. Flt Lt A.A. Wyatt assumed command
2967 (Field) Squadron1 – follow up group by mid-Oct
Gremlin Task Force – ex-IJAF flying under RAF command.
Ki-21 Sally, Ki-36 Ida, Ki-46 Dinah, Ki-48 Lily, Ki-54 Hickory, Ki-57 Topsy, Ki-67 Peggy, Ki-79, L2D2 Tabby
Note:
1. 2945 Sqn RAF Regiment in High Stakes, p19
Operations
Mk VIIIs were handed over to local French AF, while awaiting equipment (Spitfire IXs) from France, who from local resources (despite typically Gallic assurances to the contrary) could neither supply sufficient trained pilots nor correctly service the aircraft resulting in significant operational issues
Control Commission (Gen Gracey) imposed NW India style rules of engagement on ground attack. That is once hostiles are identified (over-flown) there must be a leaflet drop warning of imminent air attack. Leaflets were dropped and planes armed for ground attack on several occasions. However this procedure was enough to cause Viet Minh units to disperse without attack with one exception.
3 x Spitfire XIVs fly one ground attack mission 11th Dec in support of isolated French force NE of Ban Me Thout – there being no French a/c operationally available (see note above).
Gremlin Task Force: US policies on return/post-war use of lend-lease equipment meant many Dakotas were swiftly deleted from RAF resources. AC Cheshire resorted to ‘conscripting’ IJAF personnel and equipment. Rising Sun repainted with RAF roundels and available a/c flew transport all over British theatre of operations including Siam and even Singapore. They had no R/T with ATC which caused some consternation particularly with destination airfields.
2963 Sqdn reinforced airfield personnel consisting of a group of RAF advance parties totalling 150 Officers and men along with 2 Rifle Coys of (17th) Dogras and a Japanese Bn (approx. 1000 of whom only 300 were armed).
RAF Saigon was disbanded 14 February 1946, all personnel withdrawn except for some ATC staff who remained to handle Military transports for ‘a few’ months
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So I was intrigued by reference to Fox A/C and a quick google (see Wiki) suggests the Dutch bought 39 Foxes but these were equipped with Humber MkIV turret. For a further twist on identification, did that happen elsewhere?
There was a plan to build the Fox Mk II as a Ford-based Humber Mk IV, but in the event the Canadian Army just bought Humber Mk IVs off the peg and so the plan was shelved. Yes, the 'Overvalwagen' website had some info on the converted Foxes. I've not heard of it happening elsewhere, but I've no idea how you'd be able to tell the difference by just looking at them.
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Excellent RAF info. One picture that always sticks in my mind is a famous colour (not colourised) photo of a couple of Japanese pilots bowing. At first glance it's a WW2 photo of a couple of Kamikazes about to head off on their one and only mission for the Emperor, but there is an accompanying photo taken from a different angle, showing that they're bowing to an RAF senior officer (before taking off for a mission over Vietnam)!
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Re Humber Scout Cars; I've never found any evidence that they were used in Burma, so I guess the ones in Vietnam came straight from Europe? In Europe the standard liaison car was the Humber Scout Car, but the Armoured and Armoured Car Regiments in Burma tended to use Dingo Scout Cars, Lynx Scout Cars, India Pattern Wheeled Carriers and/or unarmoured Jeeps in that role.
RAF Regiment Rifle Squadrons were basically a typical British 'triangular' infantry company, with three 'Flights' (Platoons), each of three Sections. Each Section had up to ten men and included a Bren LMG. Each Flight usually had a PIAT and 2-inch mortar. At Squadron Level there was then a Support Flight with 4x 3-inch Mortars. Motor Transport allocation varied. Some were fully motorised, while others had enough MT for the Sqn HQ, Support Flt and sufficient troop transports to lift one Flt at a time.
RAF Regiment Light AA Squadrons had three Flights, each of 4x LAA Guns. In NW Europe these were all 40mm Bofors Guns, but various types of 20mm LAA were used elsewhere and some squadrons had mixed types (e.g. two 20mm Flts and one 40mm Flt).
For the sake of completeness: RAF Regiment Armoured Squadrons had three Flights, each of 6x Light Recce Cars. In NW Europe these were all Humber LRCs, but other types such as Otter, Morris, Beaverette and Marmon-Herrington were used elsewhere at various times.
Squadrons would usually operate under a Wing HQ, which operated in much the same way as an infantry battalion HQ.
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Oh yeas, that fort incident was the one I'd read about, involving a 3.5-inch (Super) Bazooka... Does anyone know if these were available in 1945?! My guess is that it was a mis-described PIAT...?
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I have developed a real enthusiasm for this period. Hummmmm figures???
There is an account of a Gurkha unit attacking a French fort held by VietMinh. Having been replused on day one the story suggests they brought up a bazooka on second day. Blew in door, charged in with drawn Kukri and dispatched the resident garrison.
Easy enough in 15mm. Between Peter Pig and Eureka just about everything is covered figure wise & really the only vehicle not available in 15mm is the Coventry AC, provided you're happy to modify French kit to Indochina pattern (casemated UE carriers). It exists in 20mm though.
Gurkhas in JG from Eureka, British/Sikhs from either Eureka's LW Australians or PP's 14th army range, with headswaps for the sikhs from PP's individual head range. French colonial troops are a bit more of a fudge but the real ones had a right old mixture of equipment anyway, so I use 8th Army figures (ie khaki drill) leavened with US figures - the PP and Eureka USMC work well.
Japanese come from the same sources. 'Early' Viet Minh are a slight challenge due to the lack of uniforms, but the PP SCW range provides figures in overalls and civilian dress, augmented by the various partisan and resistance figures from PP, Eureka & FOW, with some headswaps to 'Orientalise' some figures. The Eureka VM are great from c1950 onwards, when the Communist Chinese began to supply a lot of equipment.
I'd look at the equivalent ranges in 20mm or 28mm for such figures.
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Thought I could add info I have on Royal Navy deployment in Sept 1945
RN
Wednesday 26th September 1945 RN force supporting Op MASTERDOM released
from Op ZIPPER sails from Singapore Roads, arrives Cap St Jaques 29th Sept.
o HMS Waveney River Class Frigate
▪ SO Advance Group W2 (Captain T Ian Scott-Bell RN, embarked)
o Force 12 (some sources suggest the two DDs did not sail but only M/S)
▪ HMS Vigilant – V class DD leader, 4 x single 4.7” QF; 1 x twin
40mm Bofors; 6 x Oerlikon 20mm, 2 x 2, 2 x 1; 2 x quad 21” TT
▪ HMS Verulam – V class DD, armed as Vigilant, above
▪ 8 or 9 x BYMS – Yard minesweepers, 1 x 3”, 2 x 1 20mm
o HM Survey Ship Challenger – war duties as convoy escort
o HM Repair Ship Corbrae
o LCI(L) x 3
▪ 4 Lost, in Far East during RN service 29 March 46
▪ 166 Returned to USN 14 March 1946
▪ 252 Returned to USN 13 February 1946
o MV BELA Tanker – Shell Tankers UK – IMO1180549
Used in early French operations
o Other landing craft. At least one amphibious landing (My Tho)
▪ LST HMS 3037 (Mk3 RN pattern) is mentioned; fate - sold 1946.
o Other vessels are acquired:
▪ 2 x LST (Mk2 USN pattern)
• LST 382 – transferred to France 23/1/48 direct from RN
• LST 347 – returned to USN & transferred to France 1/48
Also
8 x LCI (L) (no pennant numbers given).
▪ ex-IJN various small craft – Coaster, launches, sampans and
junks
Hope this helps.
Thanks for the tips on figures. I was sort of thinking of commissioning some French Union Forces.
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This may be of use ;)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1w-cv2CJbfI&fbclid=IwAR2B-DCV5r7vckW8igimZURPY0ru-SBWqZRT1UGxhh2LxyBr4kpzFAlnFyg
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So I was intrigued by reference to Fox A/C and a quick google (see Wiki) suggests the Dutch bought 39 Foxes but these were equipped with Humber MkIV turret. For a further twist on identification, did that happen elsewhere?
In modified TO&E mentioned Armed Car Tps. Where these just A/C or mix A/C and S/C. How where the jeeps crewed and equipped? Really interesting. The Div Recce regt. Any armoured vehicles? And how many IP carriers? That's another vehicle you don't see French with.
Hi John,
Sorry, I missed the second part of your post earlier. The Jeeps were issued to the previously-lorried Rifle Troops. These initially consisted of four rifle sections, but were then split into two or three smaller troops (sources vary), each of two or three sections. I don't have exact numbers, but would guess that each section had 2-4 Jeeps. A photo of a similar Jeep Patrol of 2 Recce Regiment in Burma shows four Jeeps with 3-4 men per Jeep. Each Jeep is fitted with a radio, but no pintle MGs.
I need to do more research on Armoured Car Troop organisation. Some regiments used a mixed organisation of A/C and S/C, while others went 'heavy' with mostly A/C and I'm not sure about 16th LC.
India Pattern Wheeled Carriers were used by the Squadron Heavy/Mortar Troops as self-propelled 3-inch mortar carriers. There were two per squadron (the regiment originally had an RHQ Mortar Troop with six, but this was split three ways and divided up between the Squadrons). They were accompanied by Tp HQ Scout Cars. I've not discovered any other Wheeled Carriers being used, though they may have ben clinging on as HQ or Intercom Troop cars. Indian Engineers were still using them in Burma and Bde/Div/Corps/Army HQs were certainly still using them as liaison runabouts.
On the subject of armoured car types used by 16th Light Cavalry, I found a reference to 'B' Squadron having Daimlers in Burma and 'C' Squadron having Humbers (which were definitely Mk IVs with 37mm guns):
‘At 1430 hours on 10 April 1945, on the outskirts of Yamethin, an armoured car patrol was moving into the town from the north-west. The leading armoured car was under the command of war substantive Dafadar Badan Singh. The patrol engaged some enemy infantry in dug-in positions, when suddenly from a flank, behind cover about 200 yards away, an enemy medium tank appeared and fired with its gun at Dafadar Badan Singh’s car. These shells were close misses. Realising the position, Dafadar Badan Singh immediately closed the range by advancing towards the tank and shot at it with his 37mm gun. His first shell, which was High Explosive, blinded the enemy’s vision. His next shell, which was Armour Piercing, penetrated the enemy tank causing it to explode. The tank having been knocked-out, its crew and some infantry behind the tank broke and were engaged by Dafadar Badan Singh with his co-axial automatic. He killed nine.
By his extremely bold and quick action, taken with no regard for his personal safety, he masked and destroyed an enemy weapon which constituted a great danger to his own troop. The moral effect of the tank’s destruction turned what might have been a serious situation into a decisive success and enabled the recce. of Yameethin to be continued unhampered.’
Badan Singh was a Hindu Jat from the village of Noorpur in Hapur district, Meerut. The 16th Light Cavalry (I.A.C.), equipped with Humber Mark IV armoured cars, arrived at the Irrawaddy bridgehead in time for the advance of February 1945. Thereafter, its cars were in action daily, probing and skirmishing ahead of 17th Indian Division, and the Shermans of Probyn’s and the Deccan Horse.
Badan Singh received the riband of his M.M. from the C.-in-C. India at Rangoon on 31 July 1945, followed by the Medal itself at a Regimental Reunion Parade in March 1947.
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As for the Italians mentioned,
it was the Tientsin (Tianjin) garrison and the detachment in Peiping (Beijing). The Italian concession in Tientsin was garrisoned by troops from the from the San Marco Naval Regiment (organized into the Battaglione Italiano in Cina provisional 1st Battalion), it included also a section of Lancia Armored Cars. Being a concession there was also an Italian police service (with local staff and Italian officers), and civilians. In Peiping there was a company sized force protecting the Italian Legation and Radio Station. After the Italian Armistice Japanese troops attacked both stations. The company in Peiping fought back but was overwhelmed. The troops in Tientsin initially fought back, but then surrendered in large part to protect the civilians, also because they were soon without ammunitions.
I will try to dig out more information ...
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Hi Jemina
Just reviewing the posts and I am wondering if the 16th LC did consolidate different patterns of Armoured Car in separate Companies thus
A Fox
B Humber MkIV
C Daimler
Re the Jeep Troops. If they took just the Infantry Platoon then there's approx 39 all ranks giving three Troops of 13 in 3 or 4 Jeeps. However this would have only one officer and I suspect that Three Troops of four Jeeps each with Officer, Havildar and two Naiks plus 12 OR. With the extra men drawn from the (again I speculate) disbanded Scout Car teams. And with these disbanded (or moved into HQ Troops and maybe in support of Mortar detachments) it would mean the Armoured Car Troops were each four A/C.
Sapper & Jemima
Re the Coventry A/C and Humber S/C. I have found an old French magazine article about the 5th Cuirassiers (The Royal Polish) and these guys were equipped with Humber and Coventry (78 of latter) but these were issued over a period mid-46 to late 47. So probably bought and shipped direct form UK, however the article does suggest some of these vehicles came from Burma, without specifying which..
Cheers John
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The War Wheels website has reprinted the notations against type from the Half Yearly Reports on the Progress of the Royal Armoured Corps. The info is per 31 May, 1945. It details production and in service numbers. the relevant section on the Coventry reads as follows:
4. Coventry I
"This armoured car mounts a 2pr and 7.92mm Besa coaxially, and weighs 11.2 tons. It carries a crew of 4. Reliability Trials have been carried out with a Pilot Model at F.V.P.E., and offensive and defensive firing trials have been held at E.W.(G) Lulworth and S. of E. Ranges Shoeburyness respectively. Modifications recommended as a result of reliability and Firing Trials are being incorporated in production vehicles.
Orders 300 Production 175
It has been decided that only 300 Coventry I’s will be produced. It was originally intended that these cars would replace Staghounds as the RHQ and Squadron H.Q. vehicles, in Armd Car Regiments. 280 Coventry I’s have been allocated to the French Army."
Sometimes referred to as the Humber-Daimler Armoured Car in earlier reports but looking like a bigger Daimler, these cars were not to see much British use with most going to the French who used them in Indo China (Vietnam). The June 1944 report listed orders for 300 Coventry I with production due to start June 1944 and 900 Coventry II with 75mm planned for 1945 production. By the December report 68 Coventry I had been built but the II had been cancelled.
Pretty unlikely that any saw service in Burma or Vietnam with the British or Indian armies as all bar 20 of the curtailed production run had already been allocated to the French by May 1945 and by December of that year only 68 had actually been completed.
http://www.warwheels.net/BritishArmouredCarProductionFiguresArticleBROWN.html
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Hi Jemina
Just reviewing the posts and I am wondering if the 16th LC did consolidate different patterns of Armoured Car in separate Companies thus
A Fox
B Humber MkIV
C Daimler
Re the Jeep Troops. If they took just the Infantry Platoon then there's approx 39 all ranks giving three Troops of 13 in 3 or 4 Jeeps. However this would have only one officer and I suspect that Three Troops of four Jeeps each with Officer, Havildar and two Naiks plus 12 OR. With the extra men drawn from the (again I speculate) disbanded Scout Car teams. And with these disbanded (or moved into HQ Troops and maybe in support of Mortar detachments) it would mean the Armoured Car Troops were each four A/C.
Sapper & Jemima
Re the Coventry A/C and Humber S/C. I have found an old French magazine article about the 5th Cuirassiers (The Royal Polish) and these guys were equipped with Humber and Coventry (78 of latter) but these were issued over a period mid-46 to late 47. So probably bought and shipped direct form UK, however the article does suggest some of these vehicles came from Burma, without specifying which..
Cheers John
Yes, I agree that the A/C Troops do indeed seem to have been of 4x A/C each. The Scout Cars seem to have been relegated to SHQ, RHQ and Intercom Troop. A line-up of PAVO Daimlers also shows two groups of four Daimlers with no Scout Cars.
'B' Sqn 16th LC definitely had Daimlers, as the only known photo of one of the regiment's armoured cars in Burma is a 'B' Sqn (No.2 Troop) Daimler named 'Bols'. #C' Sqn also had Humbers, as the citation quoted above is from 'C' Sqn and positively refers to Humbers and 37mm guns.
It's always possible that squadrons had mixed types?
I think the Foxes were probably relegated to HQ and liaison roles, like those of the PAVO.
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Jemima
I'd forgotten that, B Sqdn photo with Daimler, cos earlier in this thread there's a discussion about Humber A/C parading in Saigon and whether they're Foxes or Humber MkIVs. Also comments about possibility of only B Coy being deployed. If both those are correct then mixed vehicles in Sqdns it must, unless Humber's were HQ vehicles and Daimlers for Sabre Troops.
Alternatively the whole Regiment was deployed, but Sqdns could still have single pattern A/C in the Sabre Troops.
In one operation of 16th LC detached a Sqdn to act with Gateforce in Oct 45, which comprised
o/c Major L. D. Gates
1 Company 14/13 Frontier Force Rifles
1 Squadron A/C - 16th Cavalry
1 Bn Japanese Infantry 500 men
Field Ambulance
MMG detachment (9th Jats)
Mortar Section from 14/13 FFR
Detachment Indian Field Ambulance
Detachment Indian Engineers
I wonder if Greacy would have allowed all of his armour out of Saigon?
Carlos
Thanks for that. I agree about the A/C. The article I have doesn't say which vehicle were sourced from where. However 5th Cur arrived without vehicles and I suggest its possible that some Humber Scout Cars may have come from Burma/SEAC while the Coventrys took a while longer to arrived from UK. Certainly the early photos - 1st 1/4 '46 show only Humber S/C in action.
Thanks All, great info, great thread.
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Oh Sapper
Have you a link for the photo of 16th LC in Siagon, please?
thanks
John
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Hi John,
The picture is on the cover of a soft cover book entitled "Britain and the origins of the Vietnam War - UK Policy in Indo-China 1943-1950" by T O Smith published in 2007.
It may well be that the author has got it wrong, and the picture is in fact of the 16th LC at a parade at Malacca in 1946.
I'm trying to trace a copy of the regimental history of the 16th LC (thanks to Jemima for pointing me in this direction), which may clarify many of the questions.
Sapper
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Cheers Sapper. Will wait for update
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Link (or enouogh clues if the link don't work o_o) for article about Gurkha charge. Also note about 'Soviet' adviser caputred by Japanese trooops under 1/1 Gurkhas.
https://enacademic.com/dic.nsf/enwiki/11858663#Britain_in_Vietnam:_prelude_to_disaster
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Was it Mark Felton? If so I saw that video too. I like his channel. Lots of interesting little 10-minute videos telling me stuff I didn't know about WW2.
There was one about Italian troops stationed in China after Italy surrendered and switched sides the other day. Fascinating stuff. It did actually come to blows in at least one place, which was something I didn't know.
Felton’s videos are very interesting to anyone looking for idea for smaller scale actions… I really liked the "second Korean war" one and the "waffen-ss mutiny in France, 1944"