Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => Fantasy Adventures => Frostgrave => Topic started by: pixelgeek on October 27, 2020, 04:29:21 PM
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Has anyone tried using the Frostgrave rules with D10s instead of D20s for combat resolution?
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Has anyone tried using the Frostgrave rules with D10s instead of D20s for combat resolution?
No, why?
My only thought is if you had a shortage of D20s and a surfeit of D10s.
GDW went from D10 to D20s because it increased the granularity of the results.
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Because opposed d20 is very very swingy
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Because opposed d20 is very very swingy
I originally could not understand what you meant, admittedly probability is not my strong point.
On a D10 you have a 10% chance of losing by one, on a D20 that reduces to 5% (maybe I am getting the maths wrong ^__^).
And then I realised it is nothing to do with the dice, it is the modifiers!
I do not have Frostgrave (either edition) to hand, but if you use a D20 each modifier is 5%, whereas with D10 each modifier is 10%.
So the chances of that Thug taking down your extremely expensive (especially in second edition) Templar is higher.
I am sure there are Mathsgraves experts who could give a better (and more accurate) explanation.
Do some modelling of the effect of changing from D20 to D10 on combat resolution (spreadsheets are your friend here).
First column is the die rolls for figure one, starting at row 2.
Columns two to ten/twenty in row one are the die rolls for figure 2.
The intersection between the rows and columns is the maths determining winner or loser.
Strangely enough my boss frowns on that sort of modelling at work, but I will try and put something together tonight.
Taking a Dark Future example, in the fluff Wombles(TM) are invulnerable warriors immune to the attacks of rank and file humans, cool in books but rather dull on the table.
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It’s more to do with the possible outcomes of a single dice roll (or pair of dice rolls) rather than overall probabilities.
If you are rolling against a target number, then d20s allow more granularity of modifiers. And overall probabilities should be the same.
But where you have relatively few d20 opposed rolls it’s very common to get quite dramatic differences in rolls, which can have quite significant impacts.
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But where you have relatively few d20 opposed rolls it’s very common to get quite dramatic differences in rolls, which can have quite significant impacts.
The only significance is the modifiers rather than the die rolls and their effect on the result.
So if there is a two point difference between figure one's fight and figure two's fight, that is only a ten percentile change difference on D20 but 20 percentile on D10.
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The only significance is the modifiers rather than the die rolls and their effect on the result.
That is not the case at all. Have you played the game at all?
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That is not the case at all. Have you played the game at all?
I now to your superior knowledge.
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I now to your superior knowledge.
Maybe go troll somewhere else
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Hey chaps, please keep it classy.
I've been playing Rangers Of Shadow Deep with 2D10 (adding the results) instead of a D20. It works just fine and my guess is that it can be applied to Frostgrave as well.
The outcome is a lot more "stable", while still allowing for a big variety of results: You get a lot more of 8s, 9s, 10s, 11s, so the bonus in combat gets a lot more weight. Still, there is a certain possibility of a hardened ranger getting mauled by a puny giant rat, but the chances for the one rolling super poor and the other super high are a lot smaller and therefor it occurs only rarely.
I vastly prefer 2D10 over the swingy D20, but I know players who love the D20 system because of it's unpredictable nature.
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I vastly prefer 2D10 over the swingy D20, but I know players you love the D20 system because of it's unpredictable nature.
That might be worth trying out. With the dice creating a set of average results the increased combat modifiers would, as you say, have more weight.
I might just toss some characters out on the table and give it a try.
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It does change the odds significantly though, as the probability goes from a straight line to a bell curve, and makes the average result (of 10.5) more likely in combat, making combat more likely to last longer (which may or may not be a good thing, depending on your view).
I know there was a big post about it, explaining it in more detail (and a lot better than I can do!), but I honestly can't recall whether it was here or in one of the Facebook groups.
The other issue is that it removes the auto-fail 1.
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The stats are here:
http://quixoticgamer.blogspot.com/2016/02/frostgrave-alternative-probability.html
TLDR : it changes the game more than you might think.
Whether you think the changes it brings to the game are an improvement or not is a matter of taste.
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Few examples of previous discussions on this subject:
http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=83693.0
http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=93416.0
http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=84559.0
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The stats are here:
http://quixoticgamer.blogspot.com/2016/02/frostgrave-alternative-probability.html
TLDR : it changes the game more than you might think.
Whether you think the changes it brings to the game are an improvement or not is a matter of taste.
I once had a chat about how I wanted to go about changing the Frostgrave rules to make it more to my tastes with a friend and he simply said "If you don't like the game you better play a game you like".
At that moment I did not find the comment particularly helpful and felt misunderstood but after mulling it over I have found a bit of truth in it. The problem then is that if you want to play a small scale highly narrative fantasy skirmish game there aren't that many well produced games to be found.
Of course there is always Mordheim but although I do like the art design and the fluff the rules have become somewhat tedious in comparison.
Well, what do I want to say with this...? I think I want to say: I understand your opinion on the D20 and I find it irritating as well (and much prefer the D10 System of TinaT) however the D20 and the swingy-ness, in my opinion is an integral part of Frostgrave. Once one does not like this...well, there was that comment by my friend. No offense intended!
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It's all about accepting that on a bad day you won't win a single roll and get wiped out ... that your dudes you spent hours painting aren't actually dead, they just need a new name.
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however the D20 and the swingy-ness, in my opinion is an integral part of Frostgrave.
That is my opinion on it as well. The conclusion from many a game of Frostgrave was and still is to enjoy a fast game, not to fall in love with your characters on the table too much, focus on wizard's and apprentice's actions (boost them to successes at all expenses) and better buy cheap minions, because the expensive mercenaries die just as quickly as any other human being. One should know what he does when taking money from a WIZARD to accompany that one on an expedition to a MAGICAL place like Felstad. Who would dare to blame it on the dice or bad luck or destiny? It is anybody's own decision who mever he follows… lol
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I understand your opinion on the D20 and I find it irritating as well (and much prefer the D10 System of TinaT) however the D20 and the swingy-ness, in my opinion is an integral part of Frostgrave.
Just to be clear: I found the D20 irritating, not your opinion 8)
As to what to do about it, I think scatterbrains and Michi have it right and that they provide nice solutions in terms of lore / setting and practicality. In my (few) games of Frostgrave there have been quite the number of "Bob the Archer IIIrd".
As to my personal taste for warband skirmish games, it would probably closer to other systems where every warband member "has character". But that would be concerning other games and different game design decisions. Frostgrave, in my view, is built for quick games and very little administrative / bookkeeping overhead and it is very successful in achieving that.
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and better buy cheap minions, because the expensive mercenaries die just as quickly as any other human being.
So what is the point of all of those different types of minions then? Doesn't that seem to point to a flaw in the game?
I understand the people coming to defend the game but that isn't what I was looking for. Maybe if we weren't in the midst of a pandemic I would care less but my two 12 year old gaming companions both love the idea of a game where they can paint their minis and game with them but really don't like the idea that said character then dies because their sibling rolled a 19 and there is nothing that you can do about that.
With a new lockdown imminent I was hoping to be able to try to rescue some of the effort that we put into building models etc but it looks as if that is going to take some work to try to do.
I may just look for a different system though as the flaws in Frostgrave really do annoy me. Which is odd since the author did such a much better job with Oathmark.
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A lot of skirmish games add a post-game recovery roll for any “dead” figures - this is often pretty generous, with only a 10-15% chance of permanent death, a chance of wounding, or just being fine for the next game.
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A lot of skirmish games add a post-game recovery roll for any “dead” figures - this is often pretty generous, with only a 10-15% chance of permanent death, a chance of wounding, or just being fine for the next game.
I might have a read through the campaign rules for SoBH again and see if there is anything there to work with.
There are some fun things in the Frostgrave campaign rules but they don't seem to be very deep. Its a bit of a common theme with Osprey rules. They seem rushed. With the exception of Oathmark which might just benefit from being much simpler.
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I don´t really want to advertise another game system in the Frostgrave section of the forum but since I once also encountered some of your issues with Frostgrave I hope it is forgiven if I offer a recommendation which does not involve Frostgrave (with the benefit that the game mentioned is also involved in a cooperative effort with Joe called "BLASTER Magazine" - check it out on DrivethruRPG!).
The system in question is called Relicblade and though it does offer a very different style of game it could maybe be what you are looking for. It has proprietary minis but can be played with whatever you have already!
Back when I was researching Frostgrave alternatives I found very few and Frostgrave seems to be the go-to game for a lot of people wanting a narrative small warband level fantasy game. This is actually quite good for a lot of gamers because it means there is an active community around!
If I would get a penny for every game I intended to play but there was no one in my town interested in playing it... but I digress:
If I were you I would not try to "change" Frostgrave too much if you don't like the core mechanisms. I tried doing that and it started an effort which led me to almost writing my own wargame... and who has the time for that! So if you I would either try to find a way to enjoy Frostgrave or play something different. As always, this is not meant aggressively but just as a way in which I would approach it :)
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A lot of skirmish games add a post-game recovery roll for any “dead” figures - this is often pretty generous, with only a 10-15% chance of permanent death, a chance of wounding, or just being fine for the next game.
We have found when playing Frostgrave that relatively few of the battle casualties are ever permanantly dead. It's much more common that they make a recovery or (in the case of the wizard or apprentice) suffer some kind of injury that they carry with them going forward (which in my view adds to the character - I am very protective of my nervous young apprentice Witch who currently bears "psychological scars").
If a minion dies, well it gives you an excuse to paint a new model to replace him - or else recruit his/her identical twin out for revenge!
The only time a wizard has actually died in a game we were playing was in Battle on The River in the Thaw of the Lichlord campaign last year. He was slain by a warband controlled jointly by my young son and his friend - and they still remind me of it!
The fact that combat is so dangerous, even for tough fighters, can make players cautious, and the 2nd edition rules for placing treasure sound like they will help this.
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We have found when playing Frostgrave that relatively few of the battle casualties are ever permanantly dead.
In the few games we played we found this as well. We lost a Wizard though :-( That was my character.
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If I were you I would not try to "change" Frostgrave too much if you don't like the core mechanisms. I tried doing that and it started an effort which led me to almost writing my own wargame... and who has the time for that! So if you I would either try to find a way to enjoy Frostgrave or play something different. As always, this is not meant aggressively but just as a way in which I would approach it :)
I am coming to this conclusion. I will check Relicblade out again. Also looking into using the SoBH campaign system with the ASoBH rules
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So what is the point of all of those different types of minions then? Doesn't that seem to point to a flaw in the game?
For me it was a big rescue! I had so many Sword&Sorcery fantasy miniatures in the lead pile which I finally found a use for at last. I had not to buy a single model to start playing Frostgrave immediately. By simply deciding what you see is what you get, every miniature was defined by the shown armour and weapons with ease. I loved that.
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I can see the concern about the swingy nature of the dice in Frostgrave but for me that is one of the selling points. The game tells a story much the same way that Pulp Alley does where in the same game you can have amazing cinematic moments and huge blunders that cost dearly. Our group as a whole has a lot of fun laughing at both our own and each-others rolls every time we play. If the system is too swingy for your liking then you can either tweak the rules (2D10 in this case) or try another system. You are playing a game after all and it should be fun for all involved. If you want to customize the rules then play around with them. We changed the random monster generation in our local club to encourage more monsters on the table instead of less. It changed the dynamic of the game.
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That is my opinion on it as well. The conclusion from many a game of Frostgrave was and still is to enjoy a fast game, not to fall in love with your characters on the table too much, focus on wizard's and apprentice's actions (boost them to successes at all expenses) and better buy cheap minions, because the expensive mercenaries die just as quickly as any other human being.
Thing is, that's not actually remotely the case. While it may seem that the small stat increases between a lowly Thug and a proper Knight are only marginal, so presumably only relevant in a small amount of the "swingy" opposed dice rolls, those small differences actually make a massive difference.
In a fight between those two, the Knight (Fight +4, Armour 13, Health 12) has 1.5 times the chance of winning the roll-off compared to the Thug (Fight +2, Armour 10, Health 10) - 57.3% compared to 38.3%. That's just with +2 Fight; odds get even higher if the Knight has a magical weapon or is enhanced with a spell; buffs you would normally give to those expensive soldiers.
Of all duels, the Knight has a 27.0% chance of winning and merely wounding their opponent, and 23.5% chance of outright killing them. (Assuming the critical hit rule is not used, seeing how it's explicitly optional and presumably left out by anyone disliking "swingy" results.)
The Thug, meanwhile, has a 31.3% chance of winning and doing some damage, and a 0% chance of killing the Knight in one go. The combination of armour and health is simply unsurmountable in a single dice roll. Wizards themselves will similarly rarely go down in 1 hit, as their health will simply be too high (especially later in a campaign). A series of unfortunate dice rolls can be the end of anyone of course... as they can in every game.
I understand the people coming to defend the game but that isn't what I was looking for. Maybe if we weren't in the midst of a pandemic I would care less but my two 12 year old gaming companions both love the idea of a game where they can paint their minis and game with them but really don't like the idea that said character then dies because their sibling rolled a 19 and there is nothing that you can do about that.
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I may just look for a different system though as the flaws in Frostgrave really do annoy me. Which is odd since the author did such a much better job with Oathmark.
Why do you call aspects that were clearly intended game design, which you happen to not enjoy, "flaws"?
If you don't like chance to play a role in games, dice games may not be optimal in general. If it's just the permanently dying in a campaign that's the problem, the injury table can easily be modified (multiple permanent injuries or so).
Of course, Frostgrave may indeed simply not be for you/your circumstances. But the randomness in Frostgrave is really quite overstated, even if that's not what it can feel like at times.
In the few games we played we found this as well. We lost a Wizard though :-( That was my character.
Is that what this all comes from - a single unlucky occurrence that lost you your wizard? ;)
Because objectively, that's all it is - unlucky. Changing the odds may make things less likely, but it can still happen. Again, most attacks can't take out a more important figure in one hit, and a series of unlucky rolls will eventually be the end of anyone in any game.
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Is that what this all comes from - a single unlucky occurrence that lost you your wizard? ;)
No. Ask a question first and then extrapolate after you get an answer. Assuming an answer and then responding to your newly built strawman is just irritating.
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No. Ask a question first and then extrapolate after you get an answer. Assuming an answer and then responding to your newly built strawman is just irritating.
Well now, relax, that statement was clearly made in jest.
It's difficult to say more now, however, since you declined to give an answer or comment on any of the other points.
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So what is the point of all of those different types of minions then? Doesn't that seem to point to a flaw in the game?
What you see as a flaw was a deliberate design decision - a soldier worth 4 times is deliberately not 4 times as good, as the author has explained before.
Yes, one on one a knight is better than a thug, but not to the point where, as in some other games, that there is no point in actually making the combat rolls.
If this is a big issue for you then FG is perhaps not the game for you. Personally I love it, as it means that, especially now with Thugs and Thieves being free to hire, no matter how badly you end up being mauled during a game, you're never completely without hope for the next one.
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When I first played Frostgrave, I wasn't a fan of D20 because it felt swingy. But a year later we tried again and we both embraced the D20 as core element of the game. And we actually loved it. It led to so many epic outcomes and battles we would probably never had with a bell-curve 2D10 system. A Captain one-shotting a Ghoul king with his magical blade...the same Captain getting stabbed turn after turn by Cultist and dieing in the end, a Warhound tearing a Knight in two in a frenzied attack. That is Frostgrave and the D20 for me. Epic moments, stories you'll remember for life and laughter all around. And I think it helps if you're playing with children to build the story around the table (or even better: let them tell the narrative!).
It's not just two warbands striding onto the field, casting spells, battling, getting treasure and leaving. That's a bit dull. Try to add narrative and stories to each encounter. And with the swingy results this is easy to do and I think a lot of fun. Add the post game phase with treasures, new spells, etc. and it gets even more fun!
And the good thing about your soldiers dieing often (I think 1-2 models per scenario is average) is that you paint and field other models. Your Knight was killed by a Ghoul on the icy river? His brother, a Ranger will come to avenge him! It only sucks if a Wizard dies in a game...but that is VERY rare. A dead Apprentice can simply be replaced. So casualties aren't really an issue, especially in second edition where you can take Thugs and Thieves for free.
One thing I'd REALLY stay away from is min/maxing or powergaming. I think that really kills the game. So make sure you don't pick the strong damage spells and spells like Leap and just focus on winning the game. It's way cooler to have interesting spells like Blind, Mud, Imp, etc. too. Using more of those spells makes for a more interesting game than just blasting away at enemies from safety.
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One thing I'd REALLY stay away from is min/maxing or powergaming. I think that really kills the game. So make sure you don't pick the strong damage spells and spells like Leap and just focus on winning the game. It's way cooler to have interesting spells like Blind, Mud, Imp, etc. too. Using more of those spells makes for a more interesting game than just blasting away at enemies from safety.
Although it does not have much of a connection to the topic of the thread (only a little, as the D20 obviously comes into this as well), I strongly concur with this. Although strategy and tactics surely do matter in Frostgrave it does not strike me as a game where these two are in the drivers seat. Or rather: A game in which being a brilliant planner leads to a fun game night.
I once played Frostgrave with a friend of mind who is absolutely new to wargaming but a talented engineer. I don't think it is job, more his personality which makes him a brutal minmaxer in games of all sorts and with narrative games this is just...not fun.
To bring it back to the topic: As the above statement shows, my issue with the D20 is not that it is swingy (as is the issue of the author of the thread, I assume) but that the Frostgrave-ruleset tends to make miniatures / characters feel very same-y and lacking character.
This can to a certain degree remedied by player input and storytelling but the players really have to show some willingness for it to work. Given that, there certainly are many possibilities for memorable moments.
PS: A downside of games with lots of in-depth customization is that they take a longer time to get started and are, in general, harder to teach to newcomers. As some have already said, what some may see as "flaws" in most cases likely is to be a conscious game design choice. Some may like it, some may not, but that is the case with all games :)
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To bring it back to the topic: As the above statement shows, my issue with the D20 is not that it is swingy (as is the issue of the author of the thread, I assume) but that the Frostgrave-ruleset tends to make miniatures / characters feel very same-y and lacking character.
Disagree with you on this one. Generally a Ranger and a Templar play way different in the game. That's logical with their big difference in gear. But even the cheap (or free) Thief, Thug and Warhound feel very different in how they play in the game.
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Ah, you're right of course! I should have been more specific:
Within the general class they are in "melee fighter", "ranged fighter", "treasure grabber" or "annoyingly binding people or supporting in combat role doggies" the soldiers at least to me feel not that different. Ranger / Archer / Sharpshooter and the like. They are a dude with a bow.
Another point I meant to make was that "my ranger" will most likely feel quite same-y to "your ranger" which is a natural outcome of most of the warband being expendables.
To change that would make Frostgrave an entirely different game and therefore also at this point I would say: It's a conscious game design decision. I like my lads and ladies to have more individuality, but then there is the path of houseruling, Rangers of Shadow Deep or other games :)
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Ah I understand. And I agree, Rangers of Shadow Deep is better if you want them to be more personalized and individual. I think the current setup is good for Frostgrave, with 10-12 models it can get a lot to remember otherwise.
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That is part of the appeal for me though - I know the stats of your and my soldiers (item not withstanding) without constantly having to ask.
When I play(ed) Mordheim (which I love) we would constantly have to check on the roster sheets, as even within the same warband soldier A could be very different from soldier B, despite them being the same type
But again, that comes down to games scratching different itches .
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Yes, I agree. Frostgrave in my opinion pretty much delivers exactly what it sets out to do which probably explains why it is so successful. In my opinion it was the success of Frostgrave which made a lot of the later hardcover books by Osprey even possible (economically).
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Going back to Historikers comments about the samey feel for the troop types. Quite a bit of that comes down to how you play. I generally run a pack of thieves. Not just becasue they are faster to and with treasure but I regularly have them join in combats together to defeat larger or harder targets. This allows me to scatter the warband and bring it together again at crucial moments.
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That is not only mechanically clever but also quite atmospheric! It's a strength of the system to be so flexible that it allows stuff like this without becoming extremely unbalanced.
I would still argue though that there is a difference between these characterful situations emerging from the rules and rules specifically creating characters like "This is Bilbo Kent - he is a halfling thief who is good with all plantlike beings and shoots lasers from his eyes".
But at least on my part this is not an issue, as has being said there are multiple games for multiple purposes / tastes. I feel a bit bad about having contributed to derailing this thread a bit...
Still, the D20 / D10 issue is also tied to the stats of the warbands as a D20 tends to have a leveling effect (even when there is armor and health). I just don't see how one could easily switch Frostgrave to a pure D10 system. I don't think it is possible?
Anyone having had success here?
Please don't feel like I want to cut any fruitful discussion short, it's just that I worry that people clicking on this want to read more about D10s lol