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Other Stuff => General Wargames and Hobby Discussion => Topic started by: Yarkshire Gamer on October 29, 2020, 05:35:22 PM
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https://youtu.be/DxY0U6k4Ny4 (https://youtu.be/DxY0U6k4Ny4)
https://yarkshiregamer.blogspot.com/2020/10/big-game-gaming-is-it-dead.html (https://yarkshiregamer.blogspot.com/2020/10/big-game-gaming-is-it-dead.html)
During lockdown, I've become so bored being told what to think by talk radio I can't be bothered listening, in my search for new ear fodder I discovered Wargame Podcasts (yes I know I'm a bit late for the tram on this one !)
So starting with episode one I've started with The Veteran Wargamer, WSS and the Toofatlardies Oddcast amongst others. They are great fun but the drive definitely is towards skirmish games of 20 or 30 figures or small battle games of 100 or so figs and a couple of vehicles (e.g. Bolt Action) and to have demo games on 4 x 4 tables with a dozen nicely painted figs.
As I grew up in the hobby I used to stare in amazement at the huge 28mm games at Wargames shows and aspired to get collections and have games like that (I think I've cracked it ;-), has that drive gone ? Or are people just happy to start gaming with a few figures and then just stop.
More discussion on the blog and a video on me getting side tracked on counting how many painted figures I've got.
Regards Ken
The Yarkshire Gamer
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Big Game Gaming - is it dead?
Hope so. At least in the shows. I struggle to think of a big game that I've seen where it's not been a group of mates out for the day and not fussed about the visitors. Add that to the long long turn times and you end up with a great but boring spectacle.
(Rant over)
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Gaming in the US at shows is a bit different from the UK as almost all are public participation games. While skirmish games and tournaments tend to dominate the shows I have attended most recently, I was generally able to get into several large, longer games at each convention. You tend to have a bit of down time at the larger tables though so I can see why it's not for everyone.
Our local club has a dedicated space so large multiplayer games are easier to run.
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outside of conventions few people have the space or time to play giant games.
they're a relic of a time when disposable income and personal time were the norm.
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Within our group big games are still very much a thing. We all have collections built up over years, and are old enough to have disposable income to buy stuff, but are more limited with time for painting.
There are times when skirmish games are good, but nothing beats big games with loads of units. (although our preference is small figures)
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I suppose it is just different strokes for different folks. If your typical set-up is a 5 x 3 to a 6 x 4 and the family want it free again by tea time, then your view on what you can play will be different from the person with a permanent set-up on tables 8’ and larger.
Also, do you play in a home setting or a club setting. There are some gamers who currently have no room at all to game or store figures, so solutions will be different for everyone. At least in this day and age, whatever you want is largely catered for.
Another thing that we (I) have lost is the ease at playing a short midweek game, life just does that, so anything that can get that particular pleasure back is a positive in my books.
Being a regular attender of shows on the UK scene, I like to see a smallish table that has stuff on it that inspires to to thinking ‘I could do that at home’ and then I race of to the dealer that sells it, so I see a clear symbiotic relationship between games at shows and the traders. So very big tables don’t do that for me. I can admire them, but not get inspired by them ........ but the bloke standing next to me with a big table and a ton of space at home or the club will be much more generous in his appreciation of the same.
At the moment I am trying to put 28mm and 1/72 stuff into my gaming space, because I like the spectacle of the individual figure, so that means smaller armies, but aesthetically it is what I want.
I don’t think big gaming is dead, but perhaps there is now a preponderous number of gamers who have a lifestyle that fits with smaller collections. What we should not get confused with is those with the smaller game (skirmish, big battle skirmish) are not having their hobby diminished or that a sector of the hobby is in trouble, they can be putting in as many hours and having as much enjoyment as the ‘big battle’ enthusiasts.
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Big Game Gaming - is it dead?
Hope so. At least in the shows. I struggle to think of a big game that I've seen where it's not been a group of mates out for the day and not fussed about the visitors. Add that to the long long turn times and you end up with a great but boring spectacle.
(Rant over)
That's a bad example of how big games should be presented at shows, I have done loads over the years and we always had dedicated "greeters and chatters" on hand to talk to people and explain the game, rules. A big boring spectacle is better than a tiny 4 ft table you need a microscope to see :)
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I can obviously only vouch for myself here but,
I think personally (lately especially as I havent been playing as much due to the pandemic) When I have been able to game I don't have time for an all day affair. Being able to set up a 3 x 3 or 4 x 4 table to play on and getting a game over in a an evening is a big part of the allure of "smaller gaming"
Theres also just such an enourmous investment (both time and money) in a Huge Game like some of those photos. I'm fortunate enough to have an 8 x 4 foot table but most of the people in our group certainly don't
If someone pitches a game like bushido or malifaux, I'm way more likely to paint the 10 or so figures then i am to paint 10 or so units of 12 figures a piece.
Personally, I found that investment so off putting i've scaled down my "big games" to 10mm which in my mind looks good but doesnt always have the same "wow factor" that might put it in the "big game" section as it were
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No, that’s why we invented 10mm. Seriously, over 50 odd years, it’s the huge 25/8 mm spectaculars at Salute, FIASCO and Colours that still stick in my mind.
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What is this 'skirmish'?
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That's a bad example of how big games should be presented at shows, I have done loads over the years and we always had dedicated "greeters and chatters" on hand to talk to people and explain the game, rules. A big boring spectacle is better than a tiny 4 ft table you need a microscope to see :)
Well said and yes, that's exactly how I present games at shows. The biggest part of it for me is talking to people about the battle.
It's funny, but people always feel the need to make snide remarks about demo-gamers on forums but never have the balls to do it face-to-face (or to actually put the effort in themselves).
I wonder if people go to model shows and later complain that they weren't allowed to play with the models...?
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I suspect diminishing attention spans and the wargaming butterfly/ shiny, shiny effect have played their part. Many people have lots of smaller collections, across a variety of periods.
Once upon a time, the hobby was really dominated by smaller spheres out interest and smaller numbers of manufacturers. Napoleonics, Ancients and WW2, with smaller colonial and ACW scenes. Your manufacturers choices wen I started were similarly constrained. Minifigs, Hinchliffe, maybe Essex and Peter Laing, unless you had stuck with Airfix.
Now we are spoiled for choice both in terms of periods and makers, so a lot of people flit from one flower to another and few people have the resources to be completists in every field of interest. I once had large Napoleonic and Modern armies, albeit in 6mm. Within the past twenty years my aspirations have shrunk to one day, maybe, completing my English Restoration Army, which would run in its entirety to around six foot regiments, a couple of cavalry regiments and maybe a representative militia unit. To me that’s almost the perfect size but mostly pointless because there were never more than around four battalions in any engagement be that Tangier or Sedgemoor.
Spectacle is nice but I’m happy for some other bugger to pay for and house it.
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I'm in the Pacific Northwest region of North America. Our convention games are all participation games. Our main regional convention uses 6ft x 8ft and 5ft x 8ft tables and game periods of 4 hours. We used to be able to reserve 2 or 3 or even 4 of those tables and two game periods to present big games for lots of players, usually in the middle of the gaming hall. These games varied in entertainment value depending on the GM, though they were usually popular and often won awards. There was some grumbling about the extent to which the few big games sucked some of the life out of the rest of the room.
Three years ago that changed. New administration declared an end to the big game in an effort to allow as many different GM's as possible to present games to a minimum of 4 players on each of the standard size tables. Those few of us who still want to present really big games will have to come up with our own venue.
I know one megalomaniac who has all the ships for Jutland in 1:6000, and a huge number of Napoleonic corps in 15mm. My only big collection is 28mm WSS, with about 100 battalions, 170 squadrons, and somewhere between 15 and 20 batteries. Most of these were painted by other people. My friend has a similar sized collection. I need to paint about 60 to 80 additional battalions, and a similar number of additional squadrons so that we can play Oudenarde & Malplaquet with the right units.
Having said that, I don't think I'd ever start anything like that again. I'm really liking Pulp Alley. That's below skirmish level, at what I call role playing scale. It's really a blast to paint a few interesting character figures and put together nice looking but smaller tables for a quick cinematic game.
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That sounds like a space constraint pushed the larger games out near you. Adepticon & Little Wars in the Midwest US still have support for multiple big table(s) games each day/night in spite of the majority of games moving to the skirmish level. From what I read the east coast conventions in the US still support a lot of big table gaming but I have not attended those. Not that I have attended any conventions at all this year...
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What is this 'skirmish'?
That would be a board game with miniatures. ;)
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We never do anything without at least 250-300 figures a side, and that's a small action.
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I hope not, I have thousands of figures that need big games to stay sane.......
cheers
Matt
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Still happily “big gaming” here!
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UshCha and others have questioned what a big game is ?
It's an interesting point and historically (in wargames terms) I think it's a very different beast in the 80s when I started to what it is today.
The whole premise of the argument is that there is a prevalence of "skirmish" games and those to me range from squad level game with a handful of figures say Gangs of Rome to the large skirmish games like say Bolt Action.
So for the purposes of this argument, today a large game is anything bigger than that. But when I started gaming a big game was thousands of figures on a huge table either at a show or a group of friends hiring a village hall for a weekend.
I often played and organised these games and have great memories of them, Leipzig at 33:1 on a huge table, 1st Day at Gettysburg etc. I definitely remember those games and not the DBA games I tried in the mid 90s with 10 stands on a 3 ft table.
Arguments have been made about how boring big games are or how it's just a group of mates playing a game when big games are seen at a (UK) show. I would say they are just badly run or badly organised games. Having run games at shows over the years we always had designated "chatters" on hand to speak to the public about the game and talk about the battle, terrain, figs etc.
But you cannot deny the joy of seeing a huge game of well painted figures on some beautiful terrain, that is a marvel in itself. A lot of hard work has gone into that. I'd rather see a huge game badly run than 2 people hunched over an exquisite table 3ft sq that I can't see properly unless it's through the lens of my camera.
The argument comes up a lot "you need too many figs", I will just paint these 20 figs for this game or that game. Large numbers of figures shouldn't put people off games it should inspire them !
I know these big games go on still, the old guard keep them going and it's great to here from you but this isn't a how big is my big game contest, it's an evangelical call for the return of the big game.
So back to the original question of this piece, What is a "Big Game". Honestly it's what you want it to be, it should be about aspiration, aim to play a platoon game if you play squad games now, Divisional games if you play Battalion Games.
Most people have or have had restrictions of time, space, money or opponents, mostly they don't last forever, dream big before you know it you could be running your own big game.
Thanks for a positive discussion (so far !)
Regards Ken
The Yarkshire Gamer
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It's funny, but people always feel the need to make snide remarks about demo-gamers on forums but never have the balls to do it face-to-face (or to actually put the effort in themselves).
I wonder if people go to model shows and later complain that they weren't allowed to play with the models...?
Personal attacks are not needed and in my case not justified. I've run both large and small games at local and larger shows so think I have a right to say such things as that's what I've seen AND it's always been the big games that put the walls up not the little ones.
As for model shows - they clearly state 'no touching' Where as some games just ignore you when you enquire.
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Personal attacks are not needed and in my case not justified. I've run both large and small games at local and larger shows so think I have a right to say such things as that's what I've seen AND it's always been the big games that put the walls up not the little ones.
As for model shows - they clearly state 'no touching' Where as some games just ignore you when you enquire.
My comments regarding snide criticisms were no more personal than:
"Hope so. At least in the shows. I struggle to think of a big game that I've seen where it's not been a group of mates out for the day and not fussed about the visitors. Add that to the long long turn times and you end up with a great but boring spectacle.
(Rant over)"
Pot. Kettle. Say again colour. Over.
So you've seen badly-presented big games. I've seen badly-presented small ones. Big deal. As hobbies go, wargaming is a broad church.
Small skirmish games don't interest me. Participation games don't interest me. Competition games absolutely bore the arse off me. But other people enjoy them and they're welcome to do so at the shows I frequent. I want to see the great battles of history (and quite a few of the lesser ones) presented well and to discuss those games with their creators. I'm rarely disappointed by the games I see at shows, so perhaps you need to attend some different shows instead of assuming that all demo games are as poor as the ones of your experience?
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For me it is definitely space and time. Just not enough time and got tired of starting a big project and then painting for over a year to play it.
Of course now a days cost can also prove to be a factor.
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I have a foot in two worlds, boardgaming and figures.
I suppose some of my perspective comes from the fact that I can run my 'big battles' with boardgames that by default generally take up less space than I need even for a small figures game. My figures can then do small actions and each seems to compliment the other.
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When I left university back in the days when new romance was a tribe not a section in Waterstones, I made the decision to collect only 15mm figures. I'd tried 25mm (space, expense, need to paint well) and I'd tried micro- and 6mm (just too small for me to give individual models any love), so settled on 15mm as the happy medium.
This has meant that my gaming since has been almost exclusively in the 150-500 figures on a six to eight foot by four to five foot table range.
When I first started, this was a standard-sized game, with anything smaller defined as a role-playing game (up to 50 figures on the table) or a skirmish game (50 to 150 figures on the table); and anything larger defined as a special, one-off big battle or a demo game at a show.
It was a standard-sized game because the bigger games required lots of time and multi-person participation and there weren't that many rule sets aimed at the skirmish side of things: most of the skirmish games I encountered used home-written rules. Role-playing was, well, it was role-playing, and we thought of that as something different (not better, not worse, just different...and I did it that as well, just not as part of my "wargaming" hobby).
Almost by default, therefore, everyone I knew collected and played to the standard-sized game. The guys playing 25mm had a small number of armies, the guys playing 15mm had a large number of armies. Same weight of lead, just in different forms!
Now, however, although those four categories of game (role-playing, skirmish, standard and big) still exist, the ratio of what is played has changed, with the smaller games taking market share from the bigger games...but why?
I suspect that it is down to the vast increase in choice now available to the wargamer. Technology (the Internet, self-publishing etc) has meant that we now have a huge choice of decently-produced rulesets at all sizes of game, and the means to find out and access them easily. The hole in the marketplace for decent and available skirmish games has, effectively, been filled, meaning that the word 'default' no longer applies to standard sized games.
Likewise with figures: the choice and availability is now huge, and across every possible period of conflict. Jenkins' body part is definitely "ear" today!
As a result, I suspect that the number of big games is still what it was, and that they remain a special occasion, but that wargamers now have two default sizes of game: to use my terminology, above, the skirmish and the standard size.
That means that rather than just having "The guys playing 25mm had a small number of armies, the guys playing 15mm had a large number of armies" we now have: "The guys playing 25mm have a small number of standard armies or a larger number of skirmish armies; the guys playing 15mm still have a large number of armies; and there are these new guys who have swapped their 25s and 15s for truly enormous numbers of 6mm figures".
All that matters, of course, is that our hobby remains vibrant and growing. It's a broad church and there's room for everyone.
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Except for heretics, non-conformists and er.. Quakers, obviously.
I would further refer you to Articles IX and XX of the Thirty-Nine.
;)
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@Vis Bellica
A well thought out and written post! Bravo!
All that matters, of course, is that our hobby remains vibrant and growing. It's a broad church and there's room for everyone.
Totally agree. In fact, looking back over 50 years I personally think that the hobby has grow enormously because lots of different (once separated) areas of interest (such as role playing, board gaming, etc.) have now become part of a main stream group of people who enjoy playing with miniatures, in what-ever form. You see it here on this forum day in and day out.
Life is full of negatives... but we as a group are best when focusing on the good things. And the diversity of miniatures play is a good thing.
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Totally agree. In fact, looking back over 50 years I personally think that the hobby has grow enormously...
I would agree as well. I was rather surprised yesterday when a few of the tradesmen I had working at my house stopped when they entered my hobby room (airbrushes, paints, figures on tables in the middle with shelves of figures and books all around) and were appreciative. They all gamed or knew that their kids played these games. It was rather fun to discuss gaming and books after not getting out to any conventions this year.
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I well remember one of the Dynamic Dunderheads reaction the first time he took part in a proper big game...
"Fookin' 'ell where do we start here!!!??"
Before this he'd only skirmished, or been in games with half a dozen Battalions a side, 30 Battalions each side kind of stumped him. The other, Veteran Dunderhead, had seen this many times and galloped to his rescue with a splendid...
"Don't tow, soft lad, it's wot we call a target rich environment!"
:o
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I should imagine nearly everyone aspires to gaming on 18ft tables, with exquisitely painted 28mm figures on railway model standard terrain. Then reality kicks in for most :)
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I should imagine nearly everyone aspires to gaming on 18ft tables, with exquisitely painted 28mm figures on railway model standard terrain. Then reality kicks in for most :)
And they can either give up or give it a go !
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Much as others have already mentioned, running big games would seem to depend on having at least one game master who has managed to single-mindedly focus on a particular setting and scale, in the face of the relatively recent explosion in variety and amount of military history knowledge, rulesets, and ranges, or on having a group of like-minded players who have somehow managed to synchronize their interests and scales.
Around here, it would seem to be a question of the portable "fad of the year" at the local club or of the few, focused game hosts who have persisted with their choices on the gamble that they can enlist participants (or not, if they are happy simply to collect and paint).
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I've never really played or seen a BIG game.
I discovered wargaming at about the same time I discovered RPGs. I've never gamed anything bigger than warhammer fantasy in 28mm, or Epic 40K in 6mm.
I do have two 8x4 tables, kind of by accident (converted backdrop from a school play), and the only games I play that will make much use of that space are naval and space battles.
Not that I've anything against BIG games... but if I were ever to approach doing one it would be in 6mm fantasy.
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From personal experience at my club, I`d say not dead, but not alive either. Shrodinger's wargame anyone lol
I know several people have massive collections, over vast era's, but the recent years it has been a struggle (okay, 2020 doesn`t count) to get something organised. real life an things often make it impossible for a serious amount of gamers to free up a whole weekend, so our "big battles" like the 40k one tends to be folded in to a one day game, usually about 20 players but a logistical nightmare. After a turn or 4 to 6 it's over, and points are tallied without any really epic collapses in the battle lines.
About a decennium ago, there where more often two day (technically, an evening and two days) games in the club, but the pressure of organising it while tallied against the ever more busy ratrace of work these days (less people for the same amount of work, more deadlines, I think this doesn`t sound to strange to people in my age range of 35 to 50) just brings it along that you can't bring it all up to organise.
In that same aspect, painting a gazillion figures is a misery as well, while skirmish or small scale games usually are able to be painted up in a decent amount of time, and a game would take around 4 hours, ideally for a wargame evening in a club, and yield a 'finished' result, again something time-limited peeps find handy.
Though the painting seems to worsen every pasing year, as grey syndrome is becoming really bigger and bigger lol even though the forces keep getting smaller and smaller... I often feel a weirdo insisting that I finish painting a unit before even considering putting it on the table.
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One of the problems with big games is overly complex rules, IMO. If I can't play a game in 3 or 4 hours max (and I don't care how many troops are on the table)... then I will either look for a new game or new rules.
A cheat sheet or two is all you should need. After a few games you know exactly what the situation is at any given moment and if you roll less than a 7... :o
I hate complex rules... >:(
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Is it a big game, because of the chosen big figure scale?
We went through a time [around here in the Midwest USA] when it made sense to downsize our figure scales, so we could play big games (or actually, to play battle scenarios) - with less 'overhead'.
Much of the The Industry and media the past 10+ years have given the nod to the big figures, and perhaps now because it's the common, entry-level point marketed through so many skirmish-level game systems (as was originally mentioned at this thread's beginning), that big figures are also expected to make for better, big games too?
No doubt the prospect$ of figure counts with sizable scale figures might be discouraging to many, especially at the painting levels seen across the pages of this forum here....
Perhaps, and surely the original question also involves part of what fidelity can come with modelling the larger figure scales, contrasted against what might be obtained as consistently by the wargame experience, but this gaming experienced achieved with the smaller scales, and/or within smaller spaces?
Lastly, I can't disassociate what the single-figure, and/or larger figure scale skirmish-level systems have rendered, but perhaps more so, what they have seemingly displaced -this battle-size gaming, which now seems less seen (or actually, is less aspired to as a gaming goal).
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I think it also depends on where you live. In the U.S. for instance, the idea of "gaming clubs", let alone ones you pay to join (and even less likely clubs which have their own building, etc!) are exceptionally rare.
So the idea of a "club" putting on a larger game for conventions is less prevalent. Doesn't stop small clusters of older guys doing it at the larger historical conventions here though.
My general impression of the larger games (generally 28mm and often on huge tables and historical in nature) are...neat to look at, but here is what I generally find at the conventions I've attended:
0900: 8-10 men, almost all over 50 are excitedly talking over a beautiful table of miniatures and terrain.
1300: 8-10 men are sitting in chairs chatting, while models on the table have moved around 8-10" each.
1800: 8-10 men are slumped over chairs, beers are on the edge of the table, and everyone looks absolutely exhausted. Miniatures have moved another 10-12" by this point.
This is almost like clockwork. The old "your eyes are bigger than your stomach". Now this is probably just a bad choice of rules given the size of the game, but it's very consistently that way - equally so for the guys who bring giant 6'x4' hex maps for their favourite Avalon Hill games and expect they're going to play out the entire Operation Market Garden in a day...
I like spectacle, but that is not limited to "loads of figures on a table". I play skirmish games with full and intricate terrain covering a 6'x4' table.
While I appreciate seeing the rare "big game spectacle", I have no interest in pursuing it myself.
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One of the problems with big games is overly complex rules, IMO. If I can't play a game in 3 or 4 hours max (and I don't care how many troops are on the table)... then I will either look for a new game or new rules.
I hate complex rules... >:(
Here! Here, well said that man!
We've run big games with 50 units a side and used Neil Thomas's OHW rules, and they've been spot on. The players could concentrate on their men and not the rulebook. In these games, applying the KISS Principle to Wargames, all the usual things took place that always do...
it just didn't hurt yer brayn trying to work it all out!
:-*
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As a gaming group perhaps we are lucky with the resources we have available. We game at our houses and have access to 6’x4’ as the smallest at a couple of houses, 8’x4’ at several, and 9’x6’ at one, and 12’x6’ at one now (and two previously). So we have the basic decent table size available. We tend to play with 2-3 players a side.
We tend to play with smaller scales mainly 10mm, but some 6mm epic - so we can get a lot of troops on a big table. Most of our gaming is on a Friday Evening, for around 4hrs, which means fairly quick play rules help.
A few times a year we get together for an all day game, or even occasionally a weekend away, where we may play a main game from the evening through the next day.
2020 has changed this - while I have played the odd larger game remotely, we have found smaller games (particularly table size wise) suit video gaming better, as the camera can see all of the playing the area at once.
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Interesting thread!
In my personal experience the barrier to big games is time, both to prepare for a big battle and to play it.
I restarted the hobby from scratch a couple of years ago and while I enjoy gaming the part I enjoy most (and spend significantly longer doing) is the painting and modelling. Hobby time is limited and I like to try to paint each miniature to a decent level (by my standards!). I also get bored if I try to paint too many similar figures. In addition I like to jump about between various genres and scales. This all means that I am not very productive and that it takes a long time to assemble a cohesive force. In fact I dont think I own what would amount to an actual "army" of anything yet!
My main gaming friend (we are not members of a club) has been at it for longer, but he too has various unfinished projects on the go (including Blood Bowl, SW Legion and LoTR). We were impressed when he finally managed to finish painting a whole Start Collecting box from Games Workshop! Ragtag warbands we can do, a host of liveried battalions are harder!
In addition we generally involve our sons in games (so it counts as "parenting") who have, shall we say, a shorter attention span. Games therefore need to conclude in a couple of hours.
All this means that skirmish games suit us better at the moment. We have nothing against battles involving large numbers of soldiers per se, we just don't currently have the troops (or perhaps the rules). In fact I suspect that our battles will get bigger as our collections slowly expand. After all, if you have the toys you want to see them on the table top!
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I personally think that the hobby has grow enormously because lots of different (once separated) areas of interest (such as role playing, board gaming, etc.) have now become part of a main stream group of people who enjoy playing with miniatures, in what-ever form. You see it here on this forum day in and day out.
running big games would seem to depend on having at least one game master who has managed to single-mindedly focus on a particular setting and scale (...) or on having a group of like-minded players who have somehow managed to synchronize their interests and scales.
Yes, and yes. :)
I like very big skirmish/RPG 28mm games on very large tables, but can only really do this in conventions and game festivals where there is enough space for it. At home the games are somewhat smaller.
Regarding the interaction between big game players and visitors in a convention, it depends very much on the gamers involved. A large game most often needs a precise scenario and that means that players register in advance, it can be difficult to add more players when it's started. But this should not prevent everyone taking part to explain things to visitors. Then some people like doing this and others are less communicative.
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alive and well with me!
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-CpO4VYeWDPM/XcXQleNO02I/AAAAAAAAtGY/kKiVT-0AJK4yyoleTaMnHZcYFkfwXkeagCLcBGAsYHQ/s1600/455BA0BC-6E16-464D-AB42-4A24AC0334EF.jpeg)
(https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-McZdb9qG7nk/XNm_1hd9gzI/AAAAAAAArtE/frXiDjBXu0UF1bhmohwMF3re1BzWg6qzQCKgBGAs/s1600/IMG_8120.JPG)
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-df-MHY78y_g/XPUo_qDDSvI/AAAAAAAAr_4/t9Yxz3KqrnsYBSSY5B1RUy8Qpn33yCtbwCLcBGAs/s1600/IMG_8246.JPG)
(https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-0ZpI9OqxfJ0/WhrNSGHhy9I/AAAAAAAAijs/makIx8qEVuo_u6I6J5XiGKZZyFxCs0dawCLcBGAs/s1600/IMG_4431.JPG)
this hiatus is just a chance to grow the collections for me!
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alive and well with me!
Nice work Deedles!
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alive and well with me!
Nice work Deedles!
Superb! ;D
Such tables are what I love too!
(https://i.servimg.com/u/f58/14/79/97/63/dsc03418.jpg) (https://servimg.com/view/14799763/1603)
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Early in the previous decade I had an opportunity to participate in two really big War of Spanish Succession games organized by Ian Croxall, Blenheim 2004 and Ramilles 2006. Both games represented every battalion, squadron, and battery present at the historical battle, and the figures were 28mm. Those were massive projects, involving the work of 8 or 9 different painters, several different figure manufacturers, multiple game masters to help run the games (including me at both events), and a few years of rules development to get a simple set of rules that would allow these big battles to be played out in about 6 to 7 hours. And it worked! Blenheim 2004 involved a 6ft x 32ft table and 32 players, while Ramilles 2006 involved a 6ft x 28ft table and 20 players. Neither took the whole of the two 4 hour game periods reserved at the convention. See some images here:
http://www.warflag.com/blenheim2004/enfilade.html
From time to time we have had some wargame clubs in the Pacific Northwest. Those guys in the image both wearing maroon tee shirts are members of one. Back then there was a really active club that played in Oregon's Willamette Valley. There have been a few other big games in the Pacific Northwest since then, though the big games haven't been presented at the regional convention for the last 3 years. Not sure when we'll be able to try big games again. It might be a while.
I agree that simple rules are needed for a big game. It helps a lot if there are several people interested in painting figures for the big game, including people who might be too far away to travel, but who are willing to loan and ship their figures for use in the big game. (We had a couple of people do that for these big WSS games.) It also helps if there are multiple game masters available to run around the table and answer questions and keep the game moving.
I do think it's worthwhile to do something really big as a team project at least a couple of times in one's miniature hobby lifetime. It's an interesting feeling to have been part of a couple of big projects like that.
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Ok, you can burn me as a heretic now. My first ever actual (rules, opponents, etc) wargame was a 'Big' game on an 18 x 6 foot table. (5400 x 1800 for those who have moved into the real world.) Since then I have played in big games at the club (doomed because the megalomaniacs want to put 20% of their Napoleonic collection on the table, literally 750 figures per side) in 6 hours with the rules of choice, no.
yes they look great, yes it's lovely to shove around those figures around. But I don't much want to just be a participant in a sterile exercise. For me, wargaming is aesthetics plus a genuine narrative experience, and yes, subsidiary to that a competitive challenge.
If it's just shoving around pretty regiments till you run out of time, what's the point?
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I'd say that the space available determines game size, and I'd rather not heave my entire collection to club so I've been reduced to playing 28mm Renaissance on either the coffee table or the dining table (about 2' by 3'6") - now covid has struck its a bit of an academic question.
If I had a garage where I could lay out an 8' table I would.
I would say that figure scale doesn't impact game size as much as you might imagine, for example: a unit of 10 WotR longbows in 28mm on 20x20 bases measure 100x40mm, 4 stands of 15mm bowmen (3 minis per stand) on 30mm square bases are 120x30mm.