Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => The Second World War => Topic started by: ulverston on November 22, 2020, 10:26:36 PM
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Hi Chaps,
I have just purchased the Flames of War starter set "Hit the Beach" and wondered what you all thought of it? This is my first foray into 15mm WW2 and although I have an opponent I usually play solo and would like to try the eastern front. What do you think of the rules?
So far I have painted an SS mortar and crew and although its not terrible its certainly not 28mm... yes like a fool I have a couple of Bolt Action armies in 28mm.
Some of the Battlefront minis look good enough to use as individuals for Bolt action but I will stay strong and base them on multiple bases. Rapid Fire is one of my favourite sets of all time and if all else fails I will use the 15mm for this ruleset.
It would be great to get some tips from the fans of this tiny scale, especially house sizes as I usually scratch build my own terrain.
Thanks in advance.
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Ulverston,
Greetings, I don’t play FoW but do use individually based 15mms to play Bolt Action, Chain of Command and Battlegroup all of which I can recommend (don’t change anything in the rules it just makes the distances more sensible and look more believable - I’m trying to not use the term realistic as it’s just little men after all). I’d also recommend Peter Pig miniatures (if you’re in the U.K. or I think Brookhurst in the US) as they are excellent sculpts, cover a massive range and are reasonably priced. They even do separate heads so you can vary the look of repeat sculpts or modify existing ones to troop types you can’t get - it’s very easy to do and I’ll write you a straightforward how to if you’re interested.
Whilst I individually base (on washers) there is nothing wrong with using multi bases and casualty markers all of the rules I mentioned will be fine with this. The great thing about WW2 is there are lots of different rule sets so you can find one that suits you but still use the same miniatures.
Chain of Command is platoon based with a few supports so you don’t need a lot to get started (the set you have may be suitable). 15mm allows you to play much larger games of Bolt Action without crowding (we’ve played 4-5k a side on an 8x4 - especially as German tanks are expensive). Battlegroup is an excellent set of rules that works from a few squads a side up to massive sweeping battles. I really enjoy Battlegroup and have found that the non-historical gamers I’ve demonstrated it to at club have really enjoyed themselves and picked it up very quickly.
I tend to use 4ground buildings as I like the look and they’re robust (and I think quite reasonably priced and are easy to find for sale). You can repaint them (something I may do in the future to make them look more realistic) but don’t need to. You could also build your own, I’d recommend using PVC board (I think that’s the right name, I’ll check) as it’s easy to cut, you can score it for details and will paint easily. I think 4grounds buildings are scaled as 1:100 but I know some people use bigger (1:87 or 1:72 - 20mm) or smaller buildings (1:144 - 10mm) depending on personal taste.
I’m sorry I can’t comment on FoW but have plenty of experience at this scale so if you have any other questions?
BALM
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Flames Of War is to Company-level actions in 15mm what Bolt Action is to Platoon-level action in 28mm. It's a fun game with a WWII theme. Try it. If you enjoy it, shamelessly play it.
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Thanks for the response Chaps. I like to think that great minds think alike and so now I have flip flopped and will certainly be trying some individually based figures for Bolt Action! To be honest I have not purchased figures from Peter Pig for years but I loved their AK47 figures and rules (I bought a pdf of the old rules just for a nostalgia read earlier this year). Head swaps in 15mm! Thats insane but I can understand why and may even give that a try especially on drivers/officers.
I did not even know what level of command Flames of war was supposed to be set at but company level will be just fine and is a bit of a promotion for my table top games for me.
Thanks for the help-there is certainly a lot out there to drool over.
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Ulverston, FoW is a bit Marmite. Some love it some hate it. It rather depends what sort of game you like. I would echo one of the other posts and also recommend PSC's "Battlegroup". It is the "go to" WW2 set for my local band of gamers. It has its idiosyncracies but I don't tweak it and play as-is. I have mounted my 15mm figures on 15mm diameter washers and then put them in sabot bases for ease of movement.
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Thanks SJWi I will take that onboard... I was reading the rules today (an older version as my order has not yet arrived) and all the time I was comparing it to Rapid Fire. FoW does seem a little more co,plicated but I am familiar with Rapid Fire so much this may not be the case.
I have to say that I am loving looking at what is available now in 15mm. The Plastic Soldier Company produce so much that I have suddenly discovered I need.
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I don't play FOW anymore but back when I did I had a really good time. It may not be the most realistic game (far from it) and nothing really prevented you from using daft tactics such as tank phalanxes. But I was fortunate to play with like minded people and we played my September campaign which was more historical oriented than random meeting engagement scenarios with equal force strength.
If played with a bit of historical mindset the rules work quite well for a company sized game, plays pretty fast and not a lot of micro managment.
My advice would be to pick a nation that was fighting for most of the war, and stick to it. This makes expanding your army not as expensive and you can re-use lot of units regardless of whether it is early-mid-late war.
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Ulverston, Anatoli's comment is spot on. If played in the right spirit and with half a nod to "history" it could give a good game. However I saw rather too many of the "tank phalanxes".
Yes 15mm is the way to go .I have masses of 20mm but if starting today would definitely opt for 15mm. Battlefront, PSA, Peter Pig and Forged in Battle all have very nice ranges. I guess in a few years I may say "do 12mm" but not yet......albeit the Victrix models are avery nice!
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I was impressed with the intention behind FoW when it first appeared: to create a game that encouraged the use of historical tactics by the various national forces by the use of special rules for each.
However, those special rules proved to be vulnerable to gamesmanship, and successive editions of the rules have, to my mind, made the situation worse, not better. It's ended up in much the same situation as WH40,000 with all their different factions and finely tuned super-armies. I was soured on it by all the rules lawyering and gamesmanship that I encountered when playing it.
If it's played in the spirit in which it was originally intended, with a congenial opponent, it's an enjoyable enough game. However, I'd nevertheless describe it as a WWII-skinned table game rather than a simulationist wargame.
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Thanks Guys, it seems that FoW may not be the ruleset for my friend and I to use as we have both served as infantrymen and can be a bit put out when something seems off. Obviously we are only playing a game but thats how it is. Rapid Fire is our fall back ruleset and we both play Bolt Action so the figures will see some use.
I have no regrets buying the starter set though as it has made me focus on the smaller scale-there is so much out there now, great times to be a wargamer!
So the last "problem" is working out how to paint such small models. There are a few good tutorials on Youtube but its amazing to me how quickly 15mm was superseded by 28mm... the last 15mm I painted were for DBA!
Thanks for the advice on the rules, if I ever work out how to post a pic I will update the thread with my attempts to paint these tiny guys.
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I was impressed with the intention behind FoW when it first appeared: to create a game that encouraged the use of historical tactics by the various national forces by the use of special rules for each.
However, those special rules proved to be vulnerable to gamesmanship, and successive editions of the rules have, to my mind, made the situation worse, not better. It's ended up in much the same situation as WH40,000 with all their different factions and finely tuned super-armies. I was soured on it by all the rules lawyering and gamesmanship that I encountered when playing it.
If it's played in the spirit in which it was originally intended, with a congenial opponent, it's an enjoyable enough game. However, I'd nevertheless describe it as a WWII-skinned table game rather than a simulationist wargame.
I agree with Fitz and Anatoli 100%- played it for 6 years but have not looked at in the last 6
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Painting 15mm is really an adjustment when you come from 28mm scale, I would not say that you start over skill wise but it takes some time to learn painting it to look great. Washes and and strong highlights are your best friend if you want things to pop from a distance. Vehicles are easier and pretty fun, but multi based infantry can be a slog.
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Thanks Anatoli you are so right about learning new skills, washes indeed are probably the way to go. I am finding the buildings to be the trickiest part-usually something I enjoy doing in 28mm. It's a good feeling trying something new though
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Ulverston, I wouldn't say that 15mm is superseded by 28mm, but both are now marginalising 20mm. 20mm or 1/72 was the traditional WW2 scale due to the plethora of plastic kits .Most of us started with Airfix tanks and figures. If you wanted "big battles" you went 1/300. 28mm has become far more popular for what are effectively infantry-based battles with armour bolted on. Examples of this are Bolt Action and 2FL's Chain of Command . If you want real combined-arms games you go 15 or even 10mm.
I have a mate who is die-hard 20mm, but by his own admission he is a kit-maker/super-detailer. He's even doing Cold War in 20mm which for me is total insanity.
By the way, if you have an "infantry background", have you fully investigated Two Fat Lardies "Chain of Command"?
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Another Battlegroup fan here. I recently made the move from 20mm to 15mm and am now convinced its the right scale - enough detail on the models to justify decent paint jobs with being able to fight decent battles on sensibly sized tables. Eastern Front is a favourite of mine, and its much easier to field a T-34 coy in 15mm than 20mm. The Hit the Beach set is good value, as are some of the national 'starter sets' if bought from the likes of Wayland Games (for example https://www.waylandgames.co.uk/armies-of-late-war-forces-from-1944-45/74208-d-day-british-starter-force (https://www.waylandgames.co.uk/armies-of-late-war-forces-from-1944-45/74208-d-day-british-starter-force))
For buildings, if you want to supplement your scratch building I can recommend for 15mm Eastern Front:
- Ironclad Miniatures (good value but still very nice)
- Total Battle Miniatures (expensive but lovely)
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Head swaps in 15mm! Thats insane but I can understand why and may even give that a try especially on drivers/officers.
Surprisingly easy using the Peter Pig heads, use pliers to twist the existing one off the figure, drill the neck then glue the new one in place. If I can do it almost anyone can.
(https://i.postimg.cc/3R5kn7jN/20200609_143347.jpg)
Figure on the left has helmet replaced by field cap.
I'm also using them on Essex miniatures figures as their representation of the German helmets not great, no pictures as yet though.
Second the recommendation of Ironclad Miniatures buildings.
(https://i.postimg.cc/y8G5dY4b/20181030-214707.jpg)
Red Vectors from Minibits has a nice Russian village set in mdf.
I'm also a fan of Battlegroup but picked up Rapid Fire Reloaded recently which looks good for quick simple games so plan to give it a run out as an alternative but not to replace BG.
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For me the big improvement in 15mm has been the quality of the infantry. They used to be pretty awful but certainly the latest Battlefront and PSC plastics are very nice. Despite my 20mm armies I have bought and painted a late-war British army and am starting Germans.
2021 could see me and my mates venturing into the Pacific courtesy of the latest PSC “theatre book”.
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Might be interesting to see what comes of the newly announced Skytrex/Warlord partnership. If Warlord are going to come out with a 1/200 game to increase the size of Battles beyond the designs of "Bolt Action", with figures that allow either rule set to be played, they could be on to a winner.
For WW2 gaming, every advantage 15mm has over 20/25mm, 10mm has over 15mm.
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For WW2 gaming, every advantage 15mm has over 20/25mm, 10mm has over 15mm.
Must admit if starting from scratch today I'd go with 10/12mm
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Wow the 15mm figures look really good! I was not even aware that Essex miniatures had a WW2 range and they were by far my favourite manufacturer back in the day. I can see head swaps becoming a thing for my Germans as I will be using those most. The Ironclad minis building looks perfect (never been to their website ) and I have to agree that the improvement in figure sculpting makes 15mm a more attractive proposition.
As for rules unless the latest edition is very different from the one I have I think I will be using Rapid Fire... reading them again at work (ahem) is not enthusing me at all... they seem a bit overly complicated and yet pretty basic if that makes any sense at all. I may even go and have a look at the Lardies page to check Chain of Command out, their rules are always interesting.
Thanks for the help on this thread I have discovered that there are even more 15mil figures and manufacturers out there than I thought.
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Ulceration, if you look at CofC try to find the “primer” they wrote about infantry combat. It helped explain the rule concepts to me. They might be in their download section or on their forum.
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I will have a look SJWi, I like the Rapid Fire because they are simple.. the Flames of War seem a bit overly complicated but I may have to try a game to see how they play. Certainly I will look on their website but everything seems out of stock! :-[
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Count me among the people who enjoyed the earliest iterations of FoW. Now it's...far too "tournament" styled and "buy our books and constant content" styled for my tastes. They're very GW-esque as a company in many instances, and that's not a great thing for the end consumer (though I'd assume the goal is to mimic GW and hope that their massive profits follow).
FoW makes a large range of decent plastics, and if you find them in combo boxes or starter kits...they're great - to use for other games. :D I find Battlegroup to be a far more enjoyable game, and FoW miniatures are perfect for that.
FoW miniatures on their own become...rather silly priced. Their $100 battle force boxes are completely solid deals....or you pay $45 for five small tanks with few options. Again, very GW-esque. You have to hunt to find where you're not being ripped off.
My buddy said it pretty well; he prefers Battlegroup...but FoW is a game you can just throw down really quick and play really fast, and that's a pretty fair assessment.
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Interesting comment about the Warlord/Skytrex tie-up and 10mm. The Skytrex range is "old" 1/200 and the figures and vehicles are not compatible with other, newer 10mm ranges such as Pendraken .I should know as I have lots of Skytrex 1/200 early WW2 French and Germans and Vietnam .Some of the models are beautiful, others pretty awful.
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To be fair Skytrex have never marketed the Action 200 range as 10mm although others have sometimes described it as such. Will be interesting to see what they do with the ranges and if they "support" three different scales. Incidentally I'd completely missed this announcement but does explain the new logo when I last looked on the Skytrex site.
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NTM, I agree. Skytrex are quite open about their models being 1/200 which I reckon is about 9mm. However as 25mm morphed into 28mm I think 10mm is growing.
My message was just a warning that Skytrex and other 10mm ranges may not be compatible.
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I would say definitely not compatible figures are not only 8/9mm tall but very different style looking like upscaled Heroics and Ros 6mm in a way. Figures of the various 10/12mm ranges are actually around 12mm and largely compatible but the vehicles are 1/144 - 1/160 so quite a bit of variation.
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NTM. A good call on size. With my 1/200 Vietnam I actually use the 1/300 “Mainforce Miniatures” sold by Magister Militum. They seem to fit in well size-wise.
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A very good set (which was designed for 15mm although I play it in 20mm and it works in 6mm) is Battlefront:WW2 designed by the guys who did Fire & Fury. My favourite WW2 set for actions involving a battalion or more a side. Elements are squads and vehicle model represent 2-3 models. Very well designed and historical set of rules; infantry and armour both work well, and the artillery rules are superb.
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I really hated FoW. But EVERYONE I game with loved it, so it must have had something going for it. Now TFL have announced a battalion level game with the same basing, so they will repurpose their armies for that. So I'd say go for it - you'll probably love it. And you'll have stuff you can use for other games anyway.
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Thanks Guys, the opinion on FoW is very divided it seems, a fourth edition copy should be in the box so I will give it a once over to see if it reads more enjoyably than the older copy that I have at the moment. Battlefront has grabbed my attention as I really enjoyed Fire and Fury even though I was not a huge American Civil War fan.