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Other Stuff => General Wargames and Hobby Discussion => Topic started by: Westfalia Chris on August 15, 2013, 11:32:53 AM

Title: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Westfalia Chris on August 15, 2013, 11:32:53 AM
Hi all,

as there have been a lot of discussions involving Games Workshop lately, we have decided to bundle the topic in a single thread, which you are now reading.

This thread is intended to allow people discussing recent developments regarding Games Workshop and its products in general, including, but not limited to, the release of new games, miniatures, pricing, or academic examinations of the olfactory impediments associated with GW stores over the last three decades. Basically, anything EXCEPT pictures of painted miniatures, battle reports, and other "hobby productive" issues, which should continue to be posted in their respective period boards, i.e. Fantasy and Future Wars.

Now, and let me get this straight, this thread is NOT an invitation to sling squigs at other people. All forum rules regarding posting etiquette and, in particular, copyrighted material (such as scans from unreleased White Dwarf magazine issues) apply, and I will moderate this thread as I do with other OT topics.

That's it for the moment. I'll be locking existing "General GW" topics over the next few days, and any future topic with such content will be locked immediately.

Cheers, Chris
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Kitsune on August 15, 2013, 11:38:27 AM
About time! Good move.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: cheetor on August 15, 2013, 12:16:07 PM
About time! Good move.

Yep.  Thats a great idea.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: OSHIROmodels on August 15, 2013, 12:18:58 PM
Thank christ for that!

cheers

James
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Damas on August 15, 2013, 12:29:20 PM
Thank christ for that!

cheers

James
No, thank Chris for that!
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: OSHIROmodels on August 15, 2013, 12:32:40 PM
No, thank Chris for that!

Quite  :D

cheers

James
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Westfalia Chris on August 15, 2013, 12:45:29 PM
Quote from: jimbibbly

Quote from: Damas
No, thank Chris for that!

Quite   :D

cheers

James

"Redde caesari quae sunt caesaris", gentlemen - thank the good Prof. Witchheimer who initiated and green-lit this measure. While GW may not be very high on the agenda of many LAF users, it still has been a major driving force in the development of the hobby back in the day and remains a topic of interest - bundling the discussion has mainly to do with the certain tangent most such threads tend to veer off on.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Diakon on August 15, 2013, 06:07:25 PM
Now this thread exists no-ones got anything to say.  lol

What are peoples general thoughts on the "rumoured" Inquisition game? Personally, I think it depends 100% on the miniatures. Apparently they're based on John Blanche sketches so might be okay if they got a decent sculptor involved. Judging by recent releases though, hmmm. The rules are likely to be Diet Caffeine-free Inquisitor so for those of us who actually like Inquisitor it's pretty unlikely we'll use the rules even if we buy it (I almost definitely won't due to lack of disposable income. Wonder what the INQ28 community make of it? Bet they feel a bit like GW are treading on their toes a little.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Gibby on August 15, 2013, 06:35:29 PM
This is a great idea, because speaking purely for myself, I find it therapeutic to get a lot of moaning off my chest to stave off the worst effects of the disappointment felt by the direction GW has been going. I loved and grew up with their stuff but in the last few years I have gone off it right down to the very aesthetic of it all. This thread will allow me to feel better about it, because it's nice to see my favourite online community's take on things.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: OSHIROmodels on August 15, 2013, 06:37:22 PM
Quite   :D

cheers

James

"Redde caesari quae sunt caesaris", gentlemen - thank the good Prof. Witchheimer who initiated and green-lit this measure. While GW may not be very high on the agenda of many LAF users, it still has been a major driving force in the development of the hobby back in the day and remains a topic of interest - bundling the discussion has mainly to do with the certain tangent most such threads tend to veer off on.

Well, thank you Alex  :)

I grew up with GW and still have many figures and rules sets for them but get rather fed up with the vitriol etc that happens all over the net.

I've said my piece and will now disappear to make and paint shit  :D

cheers

James
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Damas on August 15, 2013, 06:44:47 PM
I've said my piece and will now disappear to make and paint shit  :D

Are you making a midden for the Robin Hood Nottingham castle then?  :P
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: OSHIROmodels on August 15, 2013, 06:45:51 PM
Are you making a midden for the Robin Hood Nottingham castle then?  :P

Ooo, that's an idea  :D

cheers

James
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Johnno on August 15, 2013, 06:46:20 PM
What are peoples general thoughts on the "rumoured" Inquisition game? Personally, I think it depends 100% on the miniatures. Apparently they're based on John Blanche sketches so might be okay if they got a decent sculptor involved. Judging by recent releases though, hmmm. The rules are likely to be Diet Caffeine-free Inquisitor so for those of us who actually like Inquisitor it's pretty unlikely we'll use the rules even if we buy it (I almost definitely won't due to lack of disposable income. Wonder what the INQ28 community make of it? Bet they feel a bit like GW are treading on their toes a little.

If it does infact come to fruition and is based on Blanche's sketches, I'm most likely in. However, I like INQ28 and converting my own unique troops.


There's been whisperings that if successful, if could have further development down the line. My biggest GW gripe is the lack of support for the specialist games, which are some of their best...
while it would be nice to have another large line of figures, I won't be holding my breath.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Diakon on August 15, 2013, 08:43:04 PM
However, I like INQ28 and converting my own unique troops.

That;s exactly why I wonder what the INQ28 community make of it. A large part of INQ28 is the creation of unique stuff. I'd love to be able to do some stuff like you see on the Ammobunker INQ28 boards but I just don't have the sculpting skills. Having said that I rummaged around my bitz a few months ago and found a bunch of Gorkamorka ork bodies so I converted them up into a Nurgle cult with Plaguebearer heads and arms and necromunda weapons. That was the weekend I found Ammobunker for the first time and I caught the bug.  :D

My usual INQ28 revolves more around using old, classic miniatures for my warbands. For example, my Rogue Malleus Inquisitor is the Karloth Valois model, unmodified. I love the model too much to cut it up and it took me years to get hold of too.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Conquistador on August 15, 2013, 11:21:09 PM
Second sign of the Apocalypse:  I am going to say something nice about GW.

{waiting for people to stand back up and/or pick up their jaws}

Despite all my criticisms, and I think them valid - else why speak them, many fine war gamers have been introduced into the miniatures/war games hobby (although fed propaganda about it being the GW Hobby) so let it be on the record that they have at least one redeeming trait.

Gracias,

Glenn
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Miniman on August 16, 2013, 01:56:37 AM
Quote
Second sign of the Apocalypse:  I am going to say something nice about GW.
There is quite a lot of good in GW. I have played fantasy since the 5th edition and have several armies
I like most of the miniatures but there are a lot that do not appeal to me. The big gaudy looking ones like the Warsphinx, I just don't buy them. I also hate that GW stopped making lead miniatures and introduced finecast as a substitute. Of course the prices drive me crazy but it seems that nothing is cheap anymore and it's not only GW.
  For the most part I do like the fantasy rules. Loved the 7th but not so much the 8th edition as I feel GW designed the 8th with sales in mind instead of making the game better. Hordes = more money etc.
  However it still is a fun game to play and has a lot to offer as far as strategy and tactics. There are so many choices to make designing your army any during the game.
 For me the biggest plus is if I feel like playing a game I can go into my GW store and pick up a game with someone. I can't do that with other games I am interested in as easily.
  I also like LoTR but haven't played it much. Never played 40K so I can't say anything about that.



Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: FramFramson on August 16, 2013, 02:05:06 AM
Second sign of the Apocalypse:  I am going to say something nice about GW.

{waiting for people to stand back up and/or pick up their jaws}

Despite all my criticisms, and I think them valid - else why speak them, many fine war gamers have been introduced into the miniatures/war games hobby (although fed propaganda about it being the GW Hobby) so let it be on the record that they have at least one redeeming trait.

Gracias,

Glenn


But what is that trait? You post doesn't actually say!  ;D
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Glitzer on August 16, 2013, 02:27:52 AM
But what is that trait? You post doesn't actually say!  ;D

It must be the machine washable gaming mats, no doubt about that. ;)

But to be serious again: I really like my machine washable gaming mat. It's a great product and even comes without skulls.


Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Gibby on August 16, 2013, 07:03:54 AM
It is a shame they discontinued it then, probably to encourage sales of their plastic skull-ladened battle ground.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Blackwolf on August 16, 2013, 07:20:03 AM
Thankyou Alex and Chris :)

I'm actually looking forward to a new Inquisition game :)
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: cheetor on August 16, 2013, 12:19:16 PM
I'm actually looking forward to a new Inquisition game :)

Big time.

If the rules suck I wont use them, if they are good then I will play it, but if the rumoured release is real then it definitely means a big box of cool plastic 40k stuff that isnt Space Marines, hooray!  GWs best products are probably their starter sets.  They even provide value for money.

I actually hope that there isnt further support for the (rumoured) game after its (rumoured) release.  I have plenty of other toy soldier bits and pieces to buy and paint without trying to keep up with a new one.  A box set of cool stuff and a fun rule set (it could happen) would be more than enough to make me happy.

I just wish some disgruntled employee/marketing spin manager would leak some actual info.

Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: weismonsters on August 16, 2013, 03:03:08 PM
Does anyone know what happened to that very interesting Vector Magazine articel "Freedom in an owned world"? It is linked from the GW wikipedia page but seems to have disappeared.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: workerBee on August 16, 2013, 03:05:44 PM
But what is that trait? You post doesn't actually say!  ;D

Um, yes I did.

Gracias,

Glenn
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Captain Blood on August 16, 2013, 05:16:01 PM
Ah... No more tiresome blitherings about GW polluting the pure waters of Lead Adventure... Bliss  :)
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Lowtardog on August 16, 2013, 06:03:13 PM
Ah... No more tiresome blitherings about GW polluting the pure waters of Lead Adventure... Bliss  :)

Lol :D ;D
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Commander Vyper on August 16, 2013, 07:03:29 PM
Big time.

If the rules suck I wont use them, if they are good then I will play it, but if the rumoured release is real then it definitely means a big box of cool plastic 40k stuff that isnt Space Marines, hooray!  GWs best products are probably their starter sets.  They even provide value for money.

I actually hope that there isnt further support for the (rumoured) game after its (rumoured) release.  I have plenty of other toy soldier bits and pieces to buy and paint without trying to keep up with a new one.  A box set of cool stuff and a fun rule set (it could happen) would be more than enough to make me happy.

I just wish some disgruntled employee/marketing spin manager would leak some actual info.



You could try the wd confrontation rules? Been flicking through the wd 100's and stumbled across them. Nice and weighty and who doesn't like D100 equipment and trade tables! ;).

Also I'd forgotten just how many buildings and vehicle templates they used to print. Some lovely fantasy buildings too.

Oh well...
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Gibby on August 16, 2013, 07:31:56 PM
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440005a&prodId=prod2160106a

A bundle that ACTUALLY SAVES YOU MONEY! Twenty quid saved if you buy this deal over all the bits separate. Come on, GW, keep this kind of thing up and show us you aren't totally mental!
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: weismonsters on August 16, 2013, 09:47:22 PM
Ah... No more tiresome blitherings about GW polluting the pure waters of Lead Adventure... Bliss  :)

I guess lead adventure forums is not the place i had hoped it would be. O well i will try and find another one.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Dr.Falkenhayn on August 16, 2013, 10:03:07 PM
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440005a&prodId=prod2160106a

A bundle that ACTUALLY SAVES YOU MONEY! Twenty quid saved if you buy this deal over all the bits separate.

 lol yeah but the Scenery in that Set are the ugliest Pieces they're selling  >:D

this one made me chuckle,the WITCHFATE TOR for another 50 Quids  lol

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?prodId=prod900169a (http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?prodId=prod900169a)

the most ridiculous Scenery Piece ever  lol lol
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?prodId=prod1390086a (http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?prodId=prod1390086a)
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Gibby on August 16, 2013, 10:05:37 PM
I guess lead adventure forums is not the place i had hoped it would be. O well i will try and find another one.

The LAF is an amazing forum, full of great people, many of whom I now count among my friends. I suspect our good Captain was referring to threads getting derailed by GW-related blabber rather than any discussion of GW at all. Both the Future Wars and Fantasy Adventures folders have plenty of GW-based content, so don't be discouraged.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: weismonsters on August 16, 2013, 10:33:08 PM
That is all fine. I would not deny that LAF is a very worthwhile forum with lots of great hobby-related stuff. in fact i logged back on thinking to somehow edit the previous post.

But I still think i would like to find another place where this sort of thing is discussed and not all relegated to one thread. I grew up collecting the old warhammer stuff and although now i collect and paint minis from other companies (including some excellent LAF minis i bought recently), it is this stuff i am mostly interested in discussing.

Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Captain Blood on August 16, 2013, 10:58:27 PM
I think the point is that you can start threads about GW figures and games in the relevant section of the forum - which most of the time is going to be Fantasy adventures or Future Wars / sci-fi. You can start as many of these as you like if the topic is to do with figures, gaming, painting or modelling, etc.

But all discussion of GW as an entity, their pricing, marketing, practices and policies, will henceforth be corralled in this single sticky topic - rather than multiple topics every few days, all essentially knocking GW for their latest unpopular product / price / marketing ploy / whatever. It's so boring to see the same topic endlessly recycled time after time after time. At least now it will all be in one place, so those of us who don't give a monkeys about GW, know where to avoid  :)
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: weismonsters on August 16, 2013, 11:34:02 PM
I dont take kindly to bullying, verbal or otherwise. How would you like if I entered one of your threads and described it all as "tiresome blitherings".
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Vermis on August 17, 2013, 01:27:21 AM
?!?

I don't think anyone's trying to 'bully' anyone else. (For what purpose? And whose thread is he doing it in?) A bit of ribbing and relief, maybe. Thicker skin, matey! This isn't frothers, but it ain't warseer either. :)

I think I can see Captain Blood's viewpoint. If you've never paid much attention to GW; if you've been out of it for ages; or take it on your own terms without getting caught up and chewed up by the hype and cult (getting plenty of satisfaction from other games in any case), the complaints of the steady stream of disgruntled fans and fresh 'exes' can start to seem old and samey. A bit pointless and... tiresome, really. ;) The regular moans about the the company (pricing, theme, models, etc.) have been going on for, what? 20-30 years?
I enjoy a good whinge about GW myself (as do you, from the looks of things ;) ) but I've definitely felt like that in a few instances. Sometimes the situation even starts to look like some kind of abusive relationship, and the frustration increases with it - "Why do you stay with that company if you're always complaining about it and it treats you so badly? Kick that cheese to the kerb and get yourself a real game!"

Ahem. Anyway, as mentioned, this is the thread where most of that 'discussion' goes now. :) I can't blame anyone for their cheers that it leaves the sci-fi and fantasy boards a bit freer to focus on more productive or positive matters, GW-related or otherwise.

Talking about hype, cults, and Warseer: a couple of decent posts here. (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?372749-Why-do-games-like-Warmaster-and-LOTR-and-games-like-it-fail&p=6882331&viewfull=1#post6882331) (Including the quote)
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Captain Blood on August 17, 2013, 07:23:46 AM
I dont take kindly to bullying, verbal or otherwise. How would you like if I entered one of your threads and described it all as "tiresome blitherings".

Well I find endless discussion of what's wrong with Games Workshop tiresome, and most of it is repetitive and pointless, so I think blithering is a reasonable word for it.

But if you enjoy that sort of discussion, then you can do it in this thread to your heart's content. But thankfully, we will no longer have to put up with new threads every few days or weeks, raking over the same old moans and groans. That is a very good thing for LAF, which has always been a positive, constructive, good natured place.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Andym on August 17, 2013, 07:43:28 AM
I dont take kindly to bullying, verbal or otherwise. How would you like if I entered one of your threads and described it all as "tiresome blitherings".

I would agree with the good Captain and Vermis. I believe it's not bullying! What we're trying to prevent weismonsters, I think, is the likes of threads where someone has put in great deal of work painting, building and converting GW stuff only for a thread commenting on said stuff to turn into talking about the ills of Games Workshop. Personally I think it's more respectful to the people doing the work.

I'm not sure if you made a wee mistake in thinking ALL things GW, eg the painting of GW minis, was barred from LAF, it's only GW 'bashing that's to go on here.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Prof.Witchheimer on August 17, 2013, 08:20:15 AM
Well, weismonsters, this is like other guys said, nobody is thinking of banning GW topics. Everything can stay and that won't be changing. You are here since a few weeks, I'm  here since the beginning (being the guy behind LAF :)) and since seven years I was reading  almost every week again and again the same about GW "look, they have made shit again, look they're too expensive, they're mad, they're bla-bla".

Actually I'm not negative about GW, having some WHFB armies and lots of 40K stuff, their books, WDs and so on and I was starting my gaming career playing Warhammer. If you would care to take a look at my older blog (http://witchhunter.net) so you would see what I mean.

But what I like is not the ranting/bashing side of the GW hobby, and this forum has got surely about a hundred GW-bashing topics already. Isn't really not enough? So I've decided to deploy this last one thread. So you can still talk about their horrible prices or whatever you like to talk to about but with only limitation to this one place. If you are after showing miniatures, talking about GW miniatures, talking about GW games so feel free to start threads how many you need and like, we don't mind it at all.

Now, if you still think LAF is a wrong forum for you and you need your freedom to have lots of GW bashing topics, so maybe you're right, it's the wrong forum for this. But maybe you would like to give it a chance and try it here a bit longer, for some reason I think it's not that bad here :)

Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Conquistador on August 17, 2013, 03:36:04 PM
As a long time 3rd sigma level critic I think this thread is a good idea.

Please feel free to remind me of this thread if I go off topic on a GW thread.

The problem with GW threads is that GW becomes like religion and politics - very important to many people and very personal (for example, criticizing the Archbishopric's actions in Saint Louis vis-a-vis an independent Roman Catholic church in the area is a discussion that 99% of my co-workers can be involved with comfortably but one person becomes "emotional" and so we have dropped that subject in our inter-cube conversations.) 

While we have not had an actual "war" over GW, unlike religion and politics, some of the threads have indeed become "predictable" and "tiresome."  Certain posters make me seem like a GW fanboy and that is not productive to the forum.

Gracias,

Glenn


Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: cheetor on August 18, 2013, 02:46:38 PM
You could try the wd confrontation rules? Been flicking through the wd 100's and stumbled across them. Nice and weighty and who doesn't like D100 equipment and trade tables! ;).

I was actually looking through those recently in order to find illustrations of caryatids - I want to add one or two to my 40k skirmish stuff.  The core of the Confrontation rules is identical to "Inquisitor".  While many enjoy that level of complexity, I like fast and simple games rather than games that involve large modifier charts and the like, so its not for me (even though I reread the Inquisitor rulebook recently too).

Complex/ridiculous/funny/extreme equipment and trade tables are always good for a laugh though :)

lol yeah but the Scenery in that Set are the ugliest Pieces they're selling  >:D

Yep.  They dont look like actual scenery pieces at all really, more like something off the cover of Skeletors solo album :)


the most ridiculous Scenery Piece ever  lol lol
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?prodId=prod1390086a (http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?prodId=prod1390086a)

You know, I actually like that one.  The massive skulls on the side of the observatory are awful, but I think that model is quite fun, in a Tim Burton sort of way.  A lot more useful than flying spiral staircases on fire anyway :)

Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Diakon on August 18, 2013, 03:12:11 PM
Complex/ridiculous/funny/extreme equipment and trade tables are always good for a laugh though :)

Bring back Anti-Plant Grenades.  lol
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Dr.Falkenhayn on August 18, 2013, 03:42:50 PM

You know, I actually like that one.  The massive skulls on the side of the observatory are awful, but I think that model is quite fun, in a Tim Burton sort of way.  A lot more useful than flying spiral staircases on fire anyway :)


 lol lol Funny that you say that.In my perception GW has moved away from Grimdark into something abstract i.e. Rivet Wars,that Malifaux Spin off with the creepy Dolls or SDE  :? The Dreadfleet Stuff in particular is very Burtonesque  lol

on another Note: That Wizard of OZ Remake was so disappointing,Raimi makes a Burton Film with James Franco in a Johnny Depp Role  >:D
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: weismonsters on August 18, 2013, 09:14:40 PM
Regarding the above controversies, I thank those who responded constructively for their time and comments. I am tempted to continue trying to put my point of view but I can tell that I am not going to win so i will call it a day.

Cheetor, I am surprised to learn that the Inquisitor rules are based on Confrontation system- is Inquisitor a roleplay type game?

I have been recently been thinking about those Confrontation rules. I liked the complexity of the rules insofar as they were making things more realistic in some sense, to-hit probability varying continuously with range, powerful weapons almost always causing some kind of wound to a human rather than bouncing off miraculously and so on. I keep thinking i will have a go at writing some rules like that one day, just for my own entertainment as much as anything else.

Complex rules were quite the thing when i was a kid. Most of the GW games were complicated. Also some others out there. I remember spending hours to resolve a single battletech duel between two mechs using solaris VII rules and enjoying it a lot. A while back i read an interview by Ian Livingstone where he stated the complexity of the rules as one of the attractive features of games in and of itself, at least to the target audience he had in mind. Confrontation was produced whilst there was stilll that mentality in GW i think. The downside for them was that a game so slow will only involve a handfull of miniatures. Maybe this is why it was never finished, or maybe they decided it was just too slow.

There is a lot to be said for fast streamlined systems too, just not quite my cup of tea (having said that I did enjoy the card-based system of Gears of War where orders cards doubled up as wound counters- totally unrealistic but super efficient game mechanic).

Vermis- I had a look at that post on another site you linked to. I agree it is interesting. The article talks about training people to think a certain way. Sounds a bt extreme to me but maybe it is right*. It is certainly true that the first thing a person sees always tends to introduce a psychological bias and everything else tends to be subconciously referred to it. If peoples first experience of the hobby is GW they will tend to compare everything that comes after too it. For example, peoples ideas about what is a bargain is strongly affected by the first price they hear quoted, even if it is totally random number. That is called "framing" I think.


* As an edit i add this- just had a look at the introduction section of WHFB 3rd edition, and it is quite striking. They tell us that Warhammer is more than just a game, and a lot of work must be put into it to earn the sort of respect afforded to GW celebrities of which they give a long list. they do not quite go as far as to say that Warhammer is a lifestyle, but it is implied there. Later they discuss what sort of furniture the gamer should consider buying... I agree "cult marketing" is a good name for it.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: cheetor on August 18, 2013, 09:46:47 PM
Cheetor, I am surprised to learn that the Inquisitor rules are based on Confrontation system- is Inquisitor a roleplay type game?

Basically yes.  Its a game designed to be played in a narrative fashion with a GM.  The in game mechanics of Inquisitor are the same as those for Confrontation as printed in White Dwarf in 1990 or (cant remember exactly right now).  Confrontation is the same game as Inquisitor mechanically speaking IIRC.  Neither game is really what I am looking for these days, but they are fun reads for fans of the 40k setting.

There is a lot to be said for fast streamlined systems too, just not quite my cup of tea (having said that I did enjoy the card-based system of Gears of War where orders cards doubled up as wound counters- totally unrealistic but super efficient game mechanic).

I love that mechanic in the Gears boardgame, its great fun to use.  The "realism" that I am looking for in a system is a cinematic sort of realism.  The actions=wounds aspect of the Gears of War boardgame is just a mechanic for conveying peril, like music in a film.  I like not to get too bogged down in the minutiae of what these things represent as long as holistically the game feels to me like I feel that it should.  In game "realism" is in the eye of the beholder and dense rulesets do not make things more or less realistic as far as I am concerned, but YMMV etc.

Anyway thats a bit OT.  Inquisitor is mechanically essentially the same game as Confrontation and is a hybrid of role playing game and tabletop skirmish.



Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: weismonsters on August 18, 2013, 09:52:33 PM
a mechanic for conveying peril, like music in a film. 

Totally agree. It creates the right atmosphere, you are getting shot up, and your options are decreasing and the world is closing in on you. It creates a realsitic sense of drama and in that sense it is realistic.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Lord of Jerwood on August 18, 2013, 10:01:09 PM
I know this is not strictly not GW but can anyone help me to trace theses. I believe they were made by someone called doc thunder but can find anything beyond 2009.

(http://i741.photobucket.com/albums/xx54/jamie1907/Female%20Guard/body_changes-s_zps50d5667b.jpg) (http://s741.photobucket.com/user/jamie1907/media/Female%20Guard/body_changes-s_zps50d5667b.jpg.html)

 (http://i741.photobucket.com/albums/xx54/jamie1907/Female%20Guard/IMG_0109_zps08f7b81c.jpg) (http://s741.photobucket.com/user/jamie1907/media/Female%20Guard/IMG_0109_zps08f7b81c.jpg.html) 
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Vermis on August 19, 2013, 01:43:42 AM
No idea, but I'd personally rather wait for Vic Lamb's versions.

http://victoriaminiatures.info/category/news/
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: FramFramson on August 20, 2013, 03:00:13 AM
I thnk I've heard of those IG models before. You're not the first to ask after them, but the maker has long disappeared. Vermis probably has the best advice there.

As far as GW thinks, women do not actually exist (except for Slaanesh and space witches). In the grim drakness of the far future, mankind is a species of self-replicating hermaphrodites. With a "NO GURLZ ALOUD!!1" sign on their clubhouse.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: answer_is_42 on August 31, 2013, 05:32:47 PM
Anyone seen the latest Space Marine release? Among other things, the plastic commander box will be £18.

EIGH-TEEN POUNDS for a single plastic 28mm figure.

For that I could buy, say, forty Perry WOTR infantry, fourteen figures from Copplestone, twelve from Foundry, a platoon plus support weapons from Flames of War, etc, etc, etc...

Whatever the head office at GW are on, I want some. It most be lovely living is such a state of detachment from reality.  lol

Sorry. I'll leave now.  ;)
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: GladioHumanitas on August 31, 2013, 05:39:03 PM
Seen it, and the commander has a grand total 8 (or was it 9 or was that the librarian) different parts.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Commander Vyper on August 31, 2013, 06:17:25 PM
I know this is not strictly not GW but can anyone help me to trace theses. I believe they were made by someone called doc thunder but can find anything beyond 2009.

(http://i741.photobucket.com/albums/xx54/jamie1907/Female%20Guard/body_changes-s_zps50d5667b.jpg) (http://s741.photobucket.com/user/jamie1907/media/Female%20Guard/body_changes-s_zps50d5667b.jpg.html)

 (http://i741.photobucket.com/albums/xx54/jamie1907/Female%20Guard/IMG_0109_zps08f7b81c.jpg) (http://s741.photobucket.com/user/jamie1907/media/Female%20Guard/IMG_0109_zps08f7b81c.jpg.html) 


Check out the work in progress forum moderated by Grey Death. Doc Thunder also did some female marines too.

Quite a while back though so good luck finding them.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Kitsune on September 01, 2013, 01:48:50 PM
Anyone seen the latest Space Marine release? Among other things, the plastic commander box will be £18.

EIGH-TEEN POUNDS for a single plastic 28mm figure.

For that I could buy, say, forty Perry WOTR infantry, fourteen figures from Copplestone, twelve from Foundry, a platoon plus support weapons from Flames of War, etc, etc, etc...

Whatever the head office at GW are on, I want some. It most be lovely living is such a state of detachment from reality.  lol

Sorry. I'll leave now.  ;)

People are buying them and the £70 army books, so I'd say their on something good.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Argonor on September 01, 2013, 02:05:41 PM
People are buying them and the £70 army books, so I'd say their on something good.

Yup, it's the ppl buying them who's on something.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Momotaro on September 01, 2013, 03:59:18 PM
Some of the changes are welcome.  The tactical squad now has five squad/heavy weapons and a combi-weapon, and a decent range of close-combat options.  The plastic Sternguard have a really good mix of weapons and 8 combi-weapons.  Both are long-overdue.

Centurions hideous, but I like the idea of using them as mining rigs.  Not enough to buy them, mind.

Price increases not so nice, but 'twas ever thus.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: zemjw on September 01, 2013, 08:44:53 PM
Quote
EIGH-TEEN POUNDS for a single plastic 28mm figure.

yup - glad I was sitting down when I read that (and not drinking anything).

When I first saw the price I thought it was FailCast, but nope. Interestingly, neither of the character figures are FailCast - perhaps they've quietly given up on it, and this is a sign of things to come...

I wonder if they'll break the £20 barrier this year. Got to be one of the signs of the apocalypse - the real one, not the GW one ;D
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Vermis on September 01, 2013, 11:13:04 PM
IIRC finecast (http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2002/07/22) was only meant to be a stopgap between metal abandonment and total plastic production. How long that 'stopgap' is meant to last, I've no idea; but for the single army that outsells each other 40K faction and the entirety of WHFB, I would guess they'd invest to hurry it along a bit.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Glitzer on September 04, 2013, 05:34:35 PM
yup - glad I was sitting down when I read that (and not drinking anything).

When I first saw the price I thought it was FailCast, but nope. Interestingly, neither of the character figures are FailCast - perhaps they've quietly given up on it, and this is a sign of things to come...

I wonder if they'll break the £20 barrier this year. Got to be one of the signs of the apocalypse - the real one, not the GW one ;D

It does not surprise me that much. I've been watching (and playing part of the time) GW products for some years now. Back when i started I bought single metal minis for less than 10€ and even cheaper when i was in the UK. At least they cannot blame it on increasing pewter prices anymore  :) .
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Cubs on September 04, 2013, 07:37:13 PM
I remember getting my 50p pocket money and going down to the toy shop each week to buy a new miniature. Prices for a general adventurer type (Citadel, Ral Partha, Grenadier) started at around 30p, rising to a whopping 80p for some of the ogres.

If I was really disciplined I would save up my pennies for a 'Regiment of Renown' box - £3 for 8 troopers and a character model (choice of leader, champion, musician or standard bearer).

Them were the days.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Glitzer on September 04, 2013, 08:21:53 PM
I remember getting my 50p pocket money and going down to the toy shop each week to buy a new miniature. Prices for a general adventurer type (Citadel, Ral Partha, Grenadier) started at around 30p, rising to a whopping 80p for some of the ogres.

If I was really disciplined I would save up my pennies for a 'Regiment of Renown' box - £3 for 8 troopers and a character model (choice of leader, champion, musician or standard bearer).

Them were the days.
Sadly I wasted those Days of Glory with reading textbooks (I guess I was a very weird child).
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: beefcake on September 14, 2013, 08:25:55 AM
Just spotted on the GW site the Chapter deal. $20,000 (a bit over actually) NZ $.  I then looked to see what the markup is for the southern hemisphere and saw for the UK it is 7000 pounds. Roughly leaving $6000. For that price (if I was insane enough to buy that) I could buy a ticket to the UK, have a nice holiday, and ship the stuff back. I sincerely hope anyone down this way that does buy into this deal does exactly that.  o_o
 :o
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: fitterpete on September 14, 2013, 12:23:48 PM
I sincerely hope anyone who buys into that deal anywhere in the world has their friggin head examined cause it aint cheap anywhere!
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Conquistador on September 14, 2013, 01:39:23 PM
I have middle and older aged adult friends and associates in the local gaming locale who complain constantly about the prices but then buy more figures.

I think:

1) Am I missing something?  I don't think so.  They all have miniatures for other game systems, some filling whole rooms.

2) Are they stupid?  They are very successful in many cases so that is not likely.

3) Are they mentally challenged?  Most don't have issues in that arena (other than maybe politics.)  And those that do actually stay on their meds.

4) Or what?  

I think I can explain by saying that they have played GW games together long before I moved here, they enjoy each others fellowship, and they don't want to risk having that camaraderie being lost by trying new rules or substituting otherwise viable, less expensive miniatures into the mix.  It's the "comfort food" of their gaming in some ways.  As the price of their pleasure goes up they pay it.

Gracias,

Glenn
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: fitterpete on September 14, 2013, 01:53:55 PM
Don't get me wrong I play 40k and just spent over $250 on the new space marine releases but that deal is over $11000!
If it was a ancient Roman deal or French naps deal I would think the same thing.Its not what you get for the money or how much stuff its just dropping that much at one go.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Chico on September 14, 2013, 04:36:02 PM
I bought 1.. wait.. wait no i didn't.. got confused as its easy to forget about £7k ;)

On a serious note though you have to remember what's expensive to us is ain't what's expensive to others. I have an Uncle-in-law which follows Chelsea FC and England FC around the world that's a more expensive hobby by far.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: grant on September 14, 2013, 04:46:10 PM
These things are definitely relative. I work with a guy who's nuts about Batman. He has original cover art, many, many pages, and everything is signed. Plus the comics, and collectibles. His collection would make most gamers aghast, I think. I know it makes me spin thinking of how much he must spend on it all!

I was very happy to leave Games Workshop behind. The value I get out of historical gaming is exponentially greater - the biggest purchase I've ever made was from Perry. It was their D19 deal, which is no longer available. Similar to this one:
Quote
D18 French Army Deal - Mounted Napoleon pack, 16 plastic box sets of French Napoleonic Infantry (672 Infantry), 1 pack of Mounted Colonels, 1 pack of generals, 1 pack of Corps commanders, 3 packs of Line foot artillery. 8 plastic box sets of cuirassiers/carabiniers (112 cavalry) 1 pack of heavy cavalry commanders, the Marshal Ney pack, 3 packs of Line horse artillery. Actual price £457.00 -Deal price £390.00 POST FREE!
http://www.perry-miniatures.com/product_info.php?cPath=66_68&products_id=2544&osCsid=umru2946rvcgckaatps4mq0sc3 (http://www.perry-miniatures.com/product_info.php?cPath=66_68&products_id=2544&osCsid=umru2946rvcgckaatps4mq0sc3)
Except I got a copy of Black Powder with it, signed by everyone remotely related to the project, even editor Talima Fox. The photos are all signed where they photoshopped the people in  :D For me, this was unbelievable value. How could you do that kind of thing at GW? You can't.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: FramFramson on September 17, 2013, 03:02:50 AM
It occurs to me that there's one possible reason explaining why there's no significant discount on the huge £7000 boxed set: There's the very real risk of a third-party dealer buying a bunch and parting them out. They wouldn't really be able to stop that because it would be a straight up retail purchase, which consumers are legally allowed (in most countries) to dispose of as they see fit.

If true, I would find it hilarious that GW choose to guard against that possibility in such a way.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Timbor on September 17, 2013, 03:14:26 AM
Is there a discount at all on the set?  I don't plan to tally it up to find out.  lol
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: grant on September 17, 2013, 04:30:52 AM
It occurs to me that there's one possible reason explaining why there's no significant discount on the huge £7000 boxed set: There's the very real risk of a third-party dealer buying a bunch and parting them out. They wouldn't really be able to stop that because it would be a straight up retail purchase, which consumers are legally allowed (in most countries) to dispose of as they see fit.

If true, I would find it hilarious that GW choose to guard against that possibility in such a way.

I did that with the old Apocalypse Company box! They were like half price with a discount I got at the local shop. So I smelled a great selling opportunity - and I was right!
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: FramFramson on September 17, 2013, 06:14:17 AM
Is there a discount at all on the set?  I don't plan to tally it up to find out.  lol

Apparently it only comes to something like $300 USD (the set's about $12000 USD), which is practically a rounding error. This pales compared to the recent battle boxes where you'd get say infantry and three tanks for the price of the infantry.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Argonor on September 17, 2013, 07:40:39 AM
It occurs to me that there's one possible reason explaining why there's no significant discount on the huge £7000 boxed set: There's the very real risk of a third-party dealer buying a bunch and parting them out.

Of course, but they would still have made the sale. If they are affraid of that procedure, they'll have to avoid discounts per se.

Btw, I was at a local hobby store yesterday, and I noticed that they have far less GW-stuff than on an earlier occation. When I asked, if they are phasing it out, the answer was: 'No, but the Price level means that we do not sell very much, and thus we cannot afford to stock a whole lot.'

This is a store that does not exist on selling games stuff. I wonder what is happening to FLGSs relying much on selling GW-products these days...
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: beefcake on September 17, 2013, 11:42:49 AM
My local store don't deal with GW any more. Can't even shift their stuff on sale because the market where I live is soo small. Still have metal treeman I think.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Kitsune on September 18, 2013, 08:46:24 AM
I know someone who runs an online shop and has decided to no longer sell GW stuff as its not worth the hassle/effort any more. When he started, he was more or less 90% GW sales, so its a bit of a change.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Cubs on September 18, 2013, 10:21:40 AM
It does seem like the wind has well and truly shifted. There are so many viable alternatives these days - mins and games - that GW's gamble on being able to milk a core faithful is looking shakier and shakier each year.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Kitsune on September 19, 2013, 10:33:26 AM
...GW's gamble on being able to milk a core faithful is looking shakier and shakier each year.

I wouldn't say that. Theres plenty of people out there still willing to pay for their marines fix. The GW website crashed through people trying to order the new marine stuff a while back.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Cubs on September 19, 2013, 10:45:12 AM
I disagree. What I see is GW's rivals taking a bigger slice of the pie each year and GW being a byword for comedy price rises. They have clever marketeers out there to get a boost in sales every now and then, but they rely purely on the Space Marines right now, whereas they used to be a company with a healthy spread of eggs in several baskets. It's a risky business model and the fact that the big crash hasn't happened yet doesn't mean the risk of it is any less.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Commander Vyper on September 19, 2013, 10:46:53 AM
My local store don't deal with GW any more. Can't even shift their stuff on sale because the market where I live is soo small. Still have metal treeman I think.

Lotr ones? How much? :)
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Col. Aubrey Bagshot on September 19, 2013, 10:50:15 AM
I have half a dozen...  you should have asked....
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Vermis on September 19, 2013, 10:59:47 AM
Theres plenty of people out there still willing to pay for their marines fix.

But fewer of them, if the people taking about sales numbers are right.

Every time there's a new release, or a price rise (usually coinciding), some people give up on 'the GW hobby™'. But some don't feel the need to protest the soaring costs, claiming with a beatific air that they don't mind paying out because it's still 'good value' to them.
I sometimes wonder where their cut-off is. Maybe it'll be somewhere around the point where they gladly pay £18 per plastic tactical marine - let alone plastic commanders - but can't game with them because the other two-dozen people keeping GW's head above water are too far-spread over the globe.
'Course then you'll probably still have some lotus-eater declaring "I don't mind booking flights halfway across the world every other week to play toy soldiers - it's still great value 'cos 40K is the best background evar!"
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: beefcake on September 19, 2013, 11:02:48 AM
Lotr ones? How much? :)
No, wood elf ones, I think at last view they were about $nz60 so not much of a saving.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Dolmot on September 19, 2013, 11:26:19 AM
There are so many viable alternatives these days - mins and games

There aren't. If you take a look at GW's annual report (http://investor.games-workshop.com/2013/07/29/2012-2013-annual-report/), you can find a list of potential risks in the CEO's section. They are:

People (that is, their staff)
Fantasy becoming unfashionable (where 'fantasy' obviously covers all fiction including marines)
The factory burns down
External threats (costs, materials, taxes, recessions)
Counterfeit products

The last point is elaborated by losing control of IP or someone making illegal copies. This part is sort of interesting in itself:

Quote
Should that change, or we meet intransigent small infringers, we have copyright, trademark and passing off law to protect our imagery and we have never been shy of using legal redress if needed. Our legal department deals with dozens of cases each year with satisfactory results.

The scale upon which we do business is the biggest defence against this threat. The cases we deal with (and there are dozens each year) are nearly all single individuals or small businesses who 'cease and desist' as soon as they get the letter. Those who don't should be stopped more because we need to ensure everyone knows we are serious about defending our IP rather than because of the immediate threat of damage to our profits.

Read: small players can be bullied out without due process in borderline cases. Only Chapterhouse was crazy enough to go to court. Anyway, that wasn't the point of this post. I was getting to the observation that nowhere they admit the existence of alternative miniature manufacturers or game systems. Computer games, yes. Card games and RPGs, yes. Counterfeit copies, yes. Never the possibility of someone else coming up with a miniature game. It's not admitted to their fan base nor to their investors. PP, Wyrd, Battlefront, Mantic, Corvus Belli and such just don't exist. Miniatures = space marines.

Meanwhile, in Vancouver I saw a full-blown gaming store which only stocked PP and Wyrd, yet not even a single token box of the Hobbit, IIRC. Last weekend we ran a multi-system tournament with Warmachine players clearly outnumbering 40k and roughly matching WHFB. This just couldn't have happened 10 years ago with any alternative system.

Then again, WHFB and 40k are brilliant systems, because they (sort of) cover all fantasy and sci-fi. They have enough branded stuff to differentiate the worlds from their generic counterparts, but anything can be shoe-horned in. Basically, if you want to stage a classic fantasy combat between elves, goblins and humans, of the widely available products WHFB is your system, not Warmachine or Malifaux. That's why those behemoths are so hard to displace. The only way to cover equally many typical fantasy or sci-fi races and settings is to make a "GW rip-off". You can make fairly original games in a steampunk world but that's just not as cool or widely appealing.

And now I no longer know whether I got to my actual point or lost it completely...
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Conquistador on September 19, 2013, 11:51:42 AM
There aren't.<snip>

Then again, WHFB and 40k are brilliant systems, because they (sort of) cover all fantasy and sci-fi. They have enough branded stuff to differentiate the worlds from their generic counterparts, but anything can be shoe-horned in. Basically, if you want to stage a classic fantasy combat between elves, goblins and humans, of the widely available products WHFB is your system, not Warmachine or Malifaux. That's why those behemoths are so hard to displace. The only way to cover equally many typical fantasy or sci-fi races and settings is to make a "GW rip-off". You can make fairly original games in a steampunk world but that's just not as cool or widely appealing.

And now I no longer know whether I got to my actual point or lost it completely...

Yes, there are.     ::)

Brilliant does not come to mind when I think of those games.   :P

There have been, before GW, many great rules for Fantasy and SF games; there are now; and there will be after GW goes away.  What GW does best is market and, almost as well, unabashedly coerce young (and old) gamers into the "GW Hobby" mindset.    o_o

"... Basically, if you want to stage a classic fantasy combat between elves, goblins and humans, of the widely available products WHFB is your system, not Warmachine or Malifaux."  If your world is restricted to just those three, perhaps.  I have not played any of them but I have played many such games since the 1970's quite satisfactorily.

"... (sort of) cover all fantasy and sci-fi"  - Damned by faint praise at best.  And highly inaccurate.  Not to mention the kool-aid stains...

"...  The only way to cover equally many typical fantasy or sci-fi races and settings is to make a "GW rip-off"."  That is a most amazingly arrogant and ignorant assertion.  Here is a refutation of such drivel: http://www-personal.umich.edu/~beattie/timeline2.html that may enlighten you.

Gracias,

Glenn
 

Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Cubs on September 19, 2013, 12:34:01 PM
Kind of what he said. GW is so incestuous it is its own sister. They don't appear to have realised yet that the Warhammer and WH40K universes are not the sum of the hobby and that by ignoring that possibility, they are feeding their rivals. Getting rid of the core of their visionary creators and senior staff didn't help either. All they did was toddle off and ... surprise surprise ... start up rival companies!

GW did not invent Fantasy or Sci-Fi, and if they lifted their heads away from the copyright lists they might see that gamers and hobbyists have many, many more colourful and inviting games systems and some exceptional miniature ranges, all at a fraction of the GW cost. Twenty years ago, this most certainly was not the case. The only people who think that WHFB and WH40K are the only 'real' games are the die-hard Fanboyz and since fanaticism grows on opposition, it's probably best not to try to talk to them sensibly.

No-one needs to try to copy GW, GW only copied other games, mythologies, universes etc.. and, fair play to them, they did it very well. I loved Warhammer as a kid and if it wasn't for Citadel miniatures I probably wouldn't be in the hobby today. They revolutionised the way hobbyists collect and model and pioneered a very effective monopoly on the whole genre. Hats off.

But there are now other options and they're growing every day. The slick marketing, the gorgeous sculpts and paintjobs and the professionalism that brought GW its success is not something they can copyright and other companies are doing very nicely off it. That's without talking about disgruntled ex-GWers who feel cheated by a company they supported for years.

By GW's own figures, they are making less sales, yet making higher profits off those sales. This is allowing them to just about make a small profit, when taking into account the money from selling licences. Not bad in an economic depression, eh? Well, the problem is, hobby sales actually tend to rise during an economic depression, as people turn to 'feel good' sales and look at the amount of quality companies we now have who have appeared and flourished during the same period.

How are GW going to grow that shrinking pool of customers? They've lost a big part of the independent market now, with more and more retailers getting shot of GW's products. If they were selling, that wouldn't be happening. That means the gaming community outside of GW-owned clubs is playing other systems. Less and less parents will be introducing their children to the game ... it goes on. Who on earth is making these decisions? The people in charge have inherited a superbly successful and beloved hobby company and done something unpleasant to it.

I don't have any antipathy towards GW as a whole and don't have any axe to grind. In fact my fondest childhood memories of the hobby all centre around the Warhammer game and the miniatures. But other companies now provide comparable or superior (in my own opinion of course) figures, rulebooks and hobby supplies at a fraction of the cost. I'd have to be an even bigger eejit than I am not to recognise that. I wish GW could have been content with being the market leader, instead of concentrating its energies on being a market dictator.

But hey, what do I know? I'm speculating based on what I've seen over the thirty years I've been in the hobby. I'm wrong more than I'm right.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Timbor on September 19, 2013, 06:00:52 PM
I would say that for mass fantasy/sci fi battles, GW still has the upper hand in quality barring a few unfortunate recent releases.  A certain amount of 'you get what you pay for' does apply, as most of the knockoff stuff is just not the same quality overall.  Though the market of skirmish games has really produced some gorgeous miniatures.  However, on a per figure basis, I don't find skirmish miniatures any cheaper (if not more expensive in some cases).  You just need less of them for a game.

GW is projecting the image of a high-end game, which has associated status compared to 'cheaper' and 'value' games.  Luckily I am young enough that I will be able to observe if they make a success of it in the end.  My bet is they will still be around in 15+ years.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Vermis on September 19, 2013, 06:16:08 PM
Nicely said, Glenn and Cubs!

Yes, there are.     ::)

Brilliant does not come to mind when I think of those games.   :P

There have been, before GW, many great rules for Fantasy and SF games; there are now; and there will be after GW goes away.  What GW does best is market and, almost as well, unabashedly coerce young (and old) gamers into the "GW Hobby" mindset.    o_o

Agreed wholeheartedly.  I remember when I used to think Warhammer was the only fantasy game in town - back when I only hung around GW Belfast. These days I'm spoiled for choice for fantasy games, even with Warhammer kicked off the bottom of the list...

Quote
"... Basically, if you want to stage a classic fantasy combat between elves, goblins and humans, of the widely available products WHFB is your system, not Warmachine or Malifaux."  If your world is restricted to just those three, perhaps.  I have not played any of them but I have played many such games since the 1970's quite satisfactorily.

... and Warmahordes and Malifaux barely registering on the list.  ;)

Quote
"... (sort of) cover all fantasy and sci-fi"  - Damned by faint praise at best.  And highly inaccurate.  Not to mention the kool-aid stains...

I recently read posts by another guy who declared that the 40K and WHFB systems reigned supreme because they were all you ever needed for any game, any period, any scale; and I wasn't too impressed by that either. One of his points was that if you wanted to play historical vikings, you could collect a Space Wolf army. All the guns and power armour and psykers etc. just made it 'better'.  ;D

Quote
Here is a refutation of such drivel: http://www-personal.umich.edu/~beattie/timeline2.html that may enlighten you.

There's some of my evening's reading sorted out.

But all that said...

Quote
GW only copied other games, mythologies, universes etc.. and, fair play to them, they did it very well. I loved Warhammer as a kid and if it wasn't for Citadel miniatures I probably wouldn't be in the hobby today.

Agreed there too. GW even introduced me to what a good game and system really was, via Epic: Armageddon. Ironic that they considered it and other Specialist Games a 'rival option' towards the end, when they still supported it, or at least acknowledged it's existance. Now you could say it's truly a rival option, all but owned by the fan community, albeit on a pretty small scale. (No, not the mm height!)
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Dolmot on September 19, 2013, 07:16:13 PM
Well, that got too surreal for words.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Cubs on September 19, 2013, 07:56:15 PM
Luckily I am young enough that I will be able to observe if they make a success of it in the end.  My bet is they will still be around in 15+ years.

Cheeky get! I hope I'll be here in 15yrs time as well!
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Conquistador on September 19, 2013, 11:21:24 PM
Well, that got too surreal for words.

Sometimes reality does that.   ;)   lol

Gracias,

Glenn
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: weismonsters on September 19, 2013, 11:22:44 PM
Well, that got too surreal for words.

Thanks for posting that quote and your thoughts. I didnt agree with all you wrote, but dont feel the need to make personally belittling comments as a result of it.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Dolmot on September 20, 2013, 02:37:26 PM
...

OK, I'm just leaving for a gaming weekend at a remote cottage but I'd like to clarify a few things you may not be fully aware of:


All these can be verified with medium effort.

And now we got to the actual point, which is the sad state of reality where I live. Regardless of myself owning those books and fantasy minis from ~20 manufacturers:


I also like to tell myself the lie that alternative gaming is viable and doing well, but it's only remotely connected to the reality. That's why I play and organise something completely different (http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=56630.0) where I don't have to compete directly with GW products. Congratulations if in your neck of the woods other games actually get played. I'm trying but it's a tedious uphill struggle, stealing the free time I could use to actually play games.

So would you like to check the facts, re-read the topic and reconsider your motives to publicly call me a fanboy, "arrogant", "ignorant", "kool-aid drinker" and "unenlightened"? Or did you simply look for a juicy target to blurt out that outright offensive stock drivel without even bothering to check the basics first? You surely did nice job getting a few pals to join the bashing ring based on false assumptions and accusations.

Have a nice weekend. I'll check the state of affairs when I return.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Westfalia Chris on September 20, 2013, 04:14:47 PM
May I ask all involved to cool down so that we can try to continue this discussion in a civilized and polite fashion. And, I repeat, this goes out to ALL involved, so nobody should feel specifically-targeted.

Also, may I point out that the usual state of affairs for a local gaming community is most likely strongly influenced by the most popular games around, which tend to be GW. Now, "popular" is not a byword for quality, and I strongly recall an age where we were quite happy that our FLGS did stock other games next to GW, but they never quite reached critical mass to become a viable venture for the FLGS to keep supporting it, or when they did, the company failed due to problems higher up the chain (Target Games, I'm looking at you), leaving those that had invested in the game stranded.

This led to the local players falling back unto established games, and at that time, the entry-level barrier towards GW games was much lower than it is today. As has been pointed out, getting people together for a game of 40k was much easier than anything else.

I'm worried to see it again at the moment with Dystopian Wars - my FLGS has a lot of stuff from that range due to a strong influx of new gamers when the latest rulebook was released, but that seems to have fizzled, and I am worried he may never shift all of the product, leaving him with a high investment not to be recouped quickly (and that was actually not overbuying, but rather stocking a wide, but limited selection of the range available).

It may also be a case of biased perception in that we meet in an international online discussion forum not linked to a single game or period, which will obviously leave an impression that all the gaming world is such a multi-faceted place.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: OSHIROmodels on September 20, 2013, 04:44:57 PM
Now, "popular" is not a byword for quality

Same goes for music... Just look at Beiber and One Direction  lol

cheers

James
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: FramFramson on September 20, 2013, 05:14:05 PM
I think that GW's best function is, as mentioned, as an introduction to tabletop gaming. Many people even on these very boards started with oldhammer so many years ago. Or, if not, it was a flavour of Warhammer that at least made them aware of the existence of tabletop wargaming.  

GW has an organized presence in physical shops and branded shops of their own, making them much more accessible to anyone who doesn't pick up tabletop wargaming in a club. Plus by covering both sci-fi and conventional fantasy they have entry points for most people, regardless of interest (and at one point they even had historical too). Also, interest in historicals is something that tends to attract an older crowd (old enough to have actually done a few history classes and be interested in it anyway). Anyway, like Microsoft for PCs or Apple for phones, they become the default option due to their dominance and ubiquity - a standard.

Like any corporate behemoth, they have inertia that lets them get away with some poor practices that might cripple a smaller company. McVey/CMON is suffering much more for the quality failures of their KS shipments than GW is from Finecast. These are (unfortunately) minor in the scheme of things and won't hurt GW that much.

The biggest gripe about GW is price - and that IS a relevant gripe. Concerns about piracy, proxy figures, and reselling are concerns that arise because the normal price is seen by some consumers as unfair or unaffordable. People argue about rule systems or figure preferences as a personal thing, but the pocketbook matters. Especially given GW's status as a "gateway drug" for tabletop gaming.

I try to deal with facts as much as I can there. The reality as has been posted several times is that GW IS raising prices and has been doing so for some years now, testing just what the market will bear. As a result, profits have risen and the company is doing very well at the moment. Sale of 40k licenses for video gaming is also a revenue stream no other tabletop gaming companies really have. Collapse is not imminent. But the sales figures also show declining numbers of sales, both in terms of overall volume of sales and in number of buyers. This leads to two things:

1) The company has at least partially failed to recognize that it's their accessibility that is one of the keys to their success. If you're the entry point for an entire industry, it's TERRIBLE to also be that industry's most expensive vendor. Or they assume that just being present is physically enough. Kind of like the fellow who goes on a date and assumes the girl will like him just because he's the one who showed up.

2) Sales figures are being propped up by an ever-shrinking customer base who are individually spending more. It is not unreasonable to guess that these are the die-hards or longtime players with an investment in the game. Older players like that are more likely to have adult incomes that can support the GW hobby at current pricing. IF that is the case (and I wish we had figures for this), then GW's customer base is both shrinking AND aging, which is terrible. That would mean that the company is mortgaging it's future for the sake of current profits (a common phenomenon these days). Note that the PLAYER base is different from the CUSTOMER base as many people play GW using old used figs, substitutes, or the like, which masks the problem a bit.

The real question is whether they continue to raise prices in excess of inflation or industry averages or whether they level off. If they level it off at current prices, they might survive just fine. If they keep raising it, well... everyone has their breaking point. The time might come when the average player who still buys regularly finds themselves staring down a single $50 Space Marine librarian and decides it's time to drop this frighteningly expensive hobby. If the customer base is small enough, the bottom could actually drop out with "no warning", after an increase that "breaks the camel's back". Not that every GW player will resign en masse, but you'd start to see BIG dropoffs instead of the small gradual ones of the past decade.

If that happens, lowering prices back to the most recent before the increase won't get those lost players back in. It's always harder to recover lost customers or get new ones than to keep existing ones after all. What that might mean for GW or the hobby in general, I don't know, but I doubt it'll be much good to anyone.  

==================

A word on the online factor: Loads of kids today are getting into things online first. So GW's shop presence is not as crucial a factor in getting kids into minis gaming these days (though it certainly still matters). Something like Pulp Alley - easy to learn easy to learn and only requiring a few figures of your own choosing - is just as attractive as an entry point for kids. The only real drawback is the smaller community, which makes it more difficult to find a game. A lot of times local game groups have a particular game that might not be popular on a large scale, but are played heavily locally, sometimes because one or two people got the local group into it. That props up a lot of the smaller game companies.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: grant on September 20, 2013, 05:37:14 PM
Same goes for music... Just look at Beiber and One Direction  lol

cheers

James

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: Canada is awfully sorry for Bieber. And Celine Dion before that. We are currently working on genetic testing to identify anomalies in singing talent, and to reduce all such people to the level of Nickelback. A general dislike is tolerable - seething hatred is not! Thank you.  :D

GW is such an odd company.

The thing that has piqued my interest lately are the for-sale pdf hobby articles. They sell for like $3 or something, which is not much, except when one realizes that was the content from the website, and White Dwarf, that has now been put into a pdf or whatever, and sold. So what used to be value-added content and free, is now pay-for content.

A good commercial model, to nickel-and-dime your customers, but sad, too, isn't it?
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Cubs on September 20, 2013, 06:39:22 PM
Wow. That got rustic pretty quickly.

Imagine if we were talking about anything that mattered.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: FramFramson on September 20, 2013, 06:52:57 PM
Imagine if we were talking about anything that mattered.

Bah, then we'd never have agreement.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Cubs on September 20, 2013, 07:16:13 PM
Bah, then we'd never have agreement.

Yes we would.

(http://t.fod4.com/t/be76d3ca8d/c480x270_38.jpg)
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: weismonsters on September 20, 2013, 08:06:10 PM
Dolmot, very well said. I take my hat off to you.

I also dislike the bashing ring mentality.

Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Cubs on September 21, 2013, 09:04:04 AM
Can I just ask that people refrain from brutal ring bashing on this forum. It is an inappropriate venue for such antics and can cause permanent damage.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: beefcake on September 21, 2013, 09:07:56 AM
Um....  lol
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: grant on September 24, 2013, 03:23:38 AM
Squats?

Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: stone-cold-lead on September 24, 2013, 09:01:09 AM
Squats?



Yeah, I think something's going round.  ;)
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: FramFramson on September 24, 2013, 05:25:14 PM
Gesundheit!
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: beefcake on September 28, 2013, 01:29:48 AM
New dark elves are up for preorder. I actually am fairly impressed, if only they were metal ;)
The medusa is quite a nice piece.
Luckily for me I got rid of all my old dark elf miniatures a couple of weeks ago with the current army book back then. I think the price I got would be a bit less as i sold the army book in mint condition too.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: grant on September 28, 2013, 03:01:49 AM
10 plastic infantry are now $40 in Canada. HOLY #*$&ing @#&*!

No, these are just obscenely overpriced. Seriously - $40? WOW. NO! NO! NO!

Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: beefcake on September 28, 2013, 04:37:59 AM
 lol I didn't say impressed with the price. Just the minis look quite cool.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Gibby on September 28, 2013, 09:40:38 AM
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440004a&prodId=prod2250008a

We have now reached £35 for ten plastic figures lol. Unbelievable. How can they maintain this business model?

To put it in perspective, twenty plastic Witch Elves will cost you £70. For £10 LESS than that, you can buy 120 WotR Infantry, a pack of metal WotR Commanders and a crewed WotR artillery piece in Perry's £60 army deal!
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Dolmot on September 28, 2013, 10:12:57 AM
The cult of Khaine deal is £194.

Its components bought separately are £185 (4 x 35 + 1 x 45).

A very special deal for you.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Gibby on September 28, 2013, 10:23:04 AM
I am now going to benchmark all hobby prices by how many Witch Elves I could get :D

D 27 Yorkist Host – 5 x Plastic Wars boxes of the Roses Infantry, 1 x plastic box of ‘Mercenaries’(240 infantry), 1 x plastic box of Mounted Men at Arms (12 cavalry),  1 metal pack of mounted command and  2 x metal  packs of artillery - £130 Army Deal. Or 30 plastic Witch Elves. Though you are ten pounds away from having 40 plastic Witch Elves :D

Quote
The cult of Khaine deal is £194.

Its components bought separately are £185 (4 x 35 + 1 x 45).

A very special deal for you.

Well, someone has taken the time to put all of those bits together into a convenient one-click experience. That kind of service has got to be worth £9 right? :D
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Too Bo Coo on September 28, 2013, 10:38:22 AM
I'm in my early 40's with a decent job, no kids and no wife.  I have LOTS of cash to spend on my distractions.  That said, I havent bought a GW product in about 10 years, if you dont count things like paint.  But minis?  10 years at least.

I love so many aspects of their sculpts, but the price was a deal breaker for me.  Some folks have pointed out GW as a 'gateway game', and for me that was true.  It got me into tabletop, both with fantasy and Sci Fi.  But now, especially today, there are SO MANY great manufacturers, with MUCH better prices, I'd be crazy to stick with GW.  My money just goes to much further.

I'd rail against finecast, but everything that needs to be said has been already.  And to be honest, I had already walked away from GW by the time finecast appeared.  But had I not, it would have caused me to leave.  Brittle resin does not make a good gaming mini!

Happy gaming Mates!
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Cubs on September 28, 2013, 11:05:14 AM
I love so many aspects of their sculpts, but the price was a deal breaker for me.  Some folks have pointed out GW as a 'gateway game', and for me that was true. 

Fortunately for us, gates work both ways I guess.

Nice sculpts, plenty of movement (although the hair is very poorly done), although if I'm honest I find the fetishism a bit too adolescent for my taste. But then, I'm probably 25yrs over the target age market.

Let's the pretend the price is real and not just something for us to laugh about, whilst shaking our heads and wiping a tear from our eyes. As gags go, it's a pretty good one.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Too Bo Coo on September 28, 2013, 11:19:11 AM
Agreed!

In fairness, I really like their work under Citadel and Marauder, right before the 'merge' to Games Workshop.  It had a campy character that had its own voice.  My collection of Dark Future in 20mm is huge, I'm crazy about that stuff.  Great faces, hair, poses.  Just a very nice line.

I agree, the new stuff looks the same to me, very fetishy and almost cartoony now.  I like 'cartoony' hinted, as their older stuff was, but now it's quite over the top.  A shame really, all the way around. 

But with lines like Perry, Plastic Soldier, and all the other examples that you guys gave here, GW is no longer a viable option.  Heck, you even get about 20% less paint for the same darn money!
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Cubs on September 28, 2013, 11:48:21 AM
It's why I made the (very painful) switch over to Vallejo paints a couple of years ago. I've never had any issue with GW paints - even the price I could live with - but then my Dad bought me a pack of Vallejo paints one Christmas.

I smiled and made the right noises, but quietly left them to gather dust on the shelf. Then one day I needed a drab grey colour that happened to be in the pack and the rest was history.

It took me a while to get used to the shaking needed to mix the Vallejo paints before use and I'm not a fan of the dropper bottle, but I loved the quality of the paint, the subtletly of the shades and was pleasantly surprised to find how cheap they were.

When GW changed their entire paint range - names and shades - it was the straw that broke the camel's back. Familiarity and convenience were the last things tying me to their paints and they cut that cord themselves. I went through a surprisingly painless transition, going to the local Ian Allen Bookshop and looking at their Vallejo rack to learn the colours, and I've never looked back since.

I now buy empty paint pots from SHC http://www.shcweb.co.uk/eshop/ and mix up my own labelled shades using mostly Vallejo, with colour swatches on the front for when I need to top up. It's cheap, convenient and saves me a hell of a lot of time.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: zemjw on September 28, 2013, 04:53:42 PM
I really can't take the new witch elf poses seriously - they look like they're boogeying on down at some 70s disco o_o

I liked the medusa until I noticed the something dripping off her. No idea what it's meant to be, but spoiled the model for me.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: grant on September 28, 2013, 05:37:25 PM
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440004a&prodId=prod2250008a

We have now reached £35 for ten plastic figures lol. Unbelievable. How can they maintain this business model?


I'm afraid I didn't see the Witch Elves. Now the 10 spear fellow at $40 seem an absolute bargain! Canadian price: $70. Current exchange is something like 1.6 to mighty £, so double isn't even close. Not that the £ price was anything worth starting out at.

Holy moly.

(http://www.myalbum.ca/Photo-TTAJIOXO-D.jpg)
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Argonor on September 30, 2013, 09:16:37 AM

When GW changed their entire paint range - names and shades - it was the straw that broke the camel's back. Familiarity and convenience were the last things tying me to their paints and they cut that cord themselves. I went through a surprisingly painless transition, going to the local Ian Allen Bookshop and looking at their Vallejo rack to learn the colours, and I've never looked back since.

I now buy empty paint pots from SHC http://www.shcweb.co.uk/eshop/ and mix up my own labelled shades using mostly Vallejo, with colour swatches on the front for when I need to top up. It's cheap, convenient and saves me a hell of a lot of time.

It's not the first time they changed the whole range, but this time it also really bugs me. I also have the 'familiarity and convenience' issue with the new range, and seriously consider gradually switching to Vallejo. Vallejo is not as easy to find 'round here, though.

SHC is not really an option for me, as their shipping rates start at £18.50  :o
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: ink the troll on September 30, 2013, 09:41:43 AM
It's not the first time they changed the whole range, but this time it also really bugs me. I also have the 'familiarity and convenience' issue with the new range, and seriously consider gradually switching to Vallejo. Vallejo is not as easy to find 'round here, though.

SHC is not really an option for me, as their shipping rates start at £18.50  :o

If you can't find another shop that's a bit closer, try Battlefield Berlin (http://www.shop.battlefield-berlin.de) (shipping to Denmark is €10).
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Argonor on September 30, 2013, 11:12:39 AM
I use to get mixing pots from Black Hat - they carry the type used by Coat d'Arms and also used by Foundry (and the original Citadel paints).
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Vermis on October 05, 2013, 04:01:21 AM
Nice sculpts, plenty of movement (although the hair is very poorly done)

It's to get back at Roginshirroz and their more-hair-than-anything elves, y'know. (Adjusts tinfoil hat)

I don't mind the new releases. I'll even grudgingly admit that Trish Carden's new hydra is an improvement on the last (horrible) version.* Wouldn't actually buy any of them, though.

*Though if she says she wanted to give it snake heads, it might've helped to look at snakes. That's Trish in a nutshell, I think. For one of GW's long-established creature sculptors, she doesn't seem to have a great grasp on how creatures work.

It took me a while to get used to the shaking needed to mix the Vallejo paints before use and I'm not a fan of the dropper bottle, but I loved the quality of the paint, the subtletly of the shades and was pleasantly surprised to find how cheap they were.

When GW changed their entire paint range - names and shades - it was the straw that broke the camel's back. Familiarity and convenience were the last things tying me to their paints and they cut that cord themselves...
I now buy empty paint pots from SHC http://www.shcweb.co.uk/eshop/ and mix up my own labelled shades using mostly Vallejo, with colour swatches on the front for when I need to top up. It's cheap, convenient and saves me a hell of a lot of time.

To be honest, the best thing I like about Vallejo is the fact they've got so many different shades in the model color range. I've had plenty of different problems, mostly relating to that bleedin' dropper, including seperation, clogging, grittiness, and cork brown going *pop* in my face.
But I digress. It's thanks to model color, Ral Partha's mini paints and Coat D'arms military ranges that I wasn't entirely tied to GW's old range, and I quite like a lot of the new - price nonwithstanding (though I see others rushing to keep up), and I do miss some of the discontinued colours. E.g. stormvermin grey is a great midtone for scots hodden grey, though for my tastes skavenblight dinge isn't quite brown enough as a shade. :) Charadon granite would've been great for that, and a lot of other things. Tallarn flesh, too. The new skintone 'bases', ratskin flesh and bugmans glow, are fairly astonishing orange and red tones.

I have a few CDA-style pots and dropper bottles from SHC, though somehow I've only used the latter for transferring old GW screw-tops, craft paints etc. I like 'em a lot better than Vallejo droppers! The design is a bit different - the hole in the nozzle is slightly larger, and placed inside the nozzle, at the bottom of a narrow-funnel-shaped channel. Eliminates some of the problem of pigment seperating and clogging the dropper, IMO.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: beefcake on October 05, 2013, 10:15:20 AM
Definitely an improvement on the previous hydra! Still wouldn't get it though heads are still funny.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Franz_Josef on October 05, 2013, 04:36:37 PM
I used to buy their Warhammer Empire sculpts (made decent Landsknechts, Gendarmes and Reiters), but the newer sculpts have gotten wilder, bigger, and all-in-all less "realistic" and less useful.  And the price is prohibitive.  There are lots of good sculpts now, for appreciably less money.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: OSHIROmodels on October 05, 2013, 10:58:01 PM
Most of the colours are pretty useless as they are too colourful, almost comic book in tone etc.

I always get my wife to the inks for me as I hate going in there now  :? lol

I used to buy their Warhammer Empire sculpts (made decent Landsknechts, Gendarmes and Reiters), but the newer sculpts have gotten wilder, bigger, and all-in-all less "realistic" and less useful.  And the price is prohibitive.  There are lots of good sculpts now, for appreciably less money.

Not enough puff and slash which is a shame but there are a few useful bits that can be utilised and the I think the great swords are probably the best but a bit static in their poses.

cheers

James
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Vermis on October 06, 2013, 01:00:36 AM
Most of the colours are pretty useless as they are too colourful, almost comic book in tone etc.

What were scorpion green and bad moon yellow, then?  ;D ;)

Here's something that this topic was built for: seen this Beasts of War Announcement?

http://www.beastsofwar.com/games-workshop/announcement/
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: OSHIROmodels on October 06, 2013, 01:50:42 AM
I usually don't bother reading things like this because at the end of the day, I play with toy soldiers and life is too short to get imbroiled in this sort of thing but I would suggest that BoW fuck GW and report on everything else hobby related (obviously not the GW 'hobby').

There are many, many small companies, traders etc that would benefit from exposure from compaines such as BoW and not having any GW coverage will help that to happen.

Enough legal rubbish, I've got toys to play with  lol

cheers

James
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Cubs on October 06, 2013, 09:45:21 AM
I would suggest that BoW fuck GW and report on everything else hobby related (obviously not the GW 'hobby').

Ah ... an elegant and succinct turn of phrase. Oscar Wilde would have struggled to wrap up my feelings in a better way.

If GW want to abuse the law by being able to afford better lawyers than anyone else, and want to bind people to nonsensically controlling contracts, then keep away from them like they're a slimy pile of worm-ridden faeces.

There are many, many small companies, traders etc that would benefit from exposure from compaines such as BoW and not having any GW coverage will help that to happen.

Once more you have delicately prized open that nutshell and placed the truth lovingly inside. GW's releases are all over the net in a blink anyway, all BoW do is scoop people by a few hours. Get going to help raise the profile of some more deserving companies struggling to promote their wonderful sculpts.

Enough legal rubbish, I've got toys to play with  lol

(https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/p480x480/8293_639304996103212_1353085214_n.jpg)
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: OSHIROmodels on October 06, 2013, 12:22:41 PM
Ah ... an elegant and succinct turn of phrase.

I never was of a literary nature  lol

cheers

James
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Too Bo Coo on October 06, 2013, 12:48:52 PM
As far as GW and myself are concerned. I have a Night Goblin army boxed up for the future, which I probably wont use for a GW game, and I bought that aftermarket.  Even the paints I buy from them are fewer and fewer every year as I become more comfortable with other lines, particularly Vallejo.  So I treat GW like I did with unsavory political institutions, I voted with my feet and wallet.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: thebinmann on October 06, 2013, 12:56:56 PM
That's it I'm done with GW, finished no more products from them.

All I'm up for now is 1980s citadel on ebay!
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Gibby on October 06, 2013, 01:49:02 PM
In the last three months I have come very close to getting back into Warhammer, and more recently, Warhammer 40k. The pricing of the new Dark Elf stuff alienated me from getting back into Warhammer, because I felt like I was being mocked by being asked for £35 for 10 plastic figures. I had just about reconciled myself to the fact that, hey, you buy it it's yours forever and you'll get hours of fun out of it... but was looking more towards doing some 40k stuff this time as I love the fluff and was in a bit of a sci-fi mood. Then I saw this whole BoW thing, and I can't honestly condone GW's current form by buying any of their stuff. They're like a dying beast lashing out in its death throes, with falling sales and utterly ridiculous price gouging to cover them, and plain cynical business practices... I don't know. Time to redirect all my hobby money to other companies exclusively.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Modhail on October 06, 2013, 02:50:27 PM
Dear Gods, do I ever feel a knee-jerk reaction coming on!  >:(
They (GW) are certainly doing their level best to alienatie as much support as they can... I wonder what they'll do once they achieve their apparent goal of becoming a company with only shareholders and without customers, without (independent) retailers, without anyone talking about them.  :-[
Or maybe they're just trying to kill off the wargames branch because it has worse ROI than their publishing house and whoring out their IP to make sup-par shovelware games?

Phew, managed to contain my knee to just a little twitch there...


This whole BoW thing has made it clear to me however: Looking at the way they are policing sites that potentially discus GW, they clearly see themselves as Fight Club.
Oh, well, mr. Bibbly has it right, time to return to my toys.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: weismonsters on October 09, 2013, 01:08:06 AM
I have not heard of Beasts of War before but I have heard various tales of GW doing this kind of thing. Regarding price rises and so on, I have acceptable bounds of price/quality ratio and if i feel something falls outside it i wont buy, without need to make any public outcry. However, when it comes to this type of thing with the cease and desist letters it is healthy to have some kind of public discussion in my opinion.

Now I have no idea about the rights and wrongs of this particular case, but in that press release I found the following statement which resonates with me:

"... it seems completely alien to us ... not be able to report on the most dominant game and company in the industry."

Another notable thing is that they keep saying that they respect GW and want to keep covering them etc. Now it seems to me this is quite a swashbuckling line to take, despite the meek and mild language used to announce it. They are basically inviting GW to show themselves up as the aggressors.

It seems from all this business that GW is in a position to say to themselves that not all publicity is good publicity. Now, i know there is a certain element of luck in successful business, but presumably they didnt get where they are by shooting themselves in the foot. If they seem more focussed on controlling information than on giving gamers the best possible gaming experience it is because they have calculated it is in their best interests to do so. Likewise with concentrating on a younger market. Likewise with targeting new customers and neglecting older ones. Likewise with distancing themselves from stockists. And if they beleive that they dont need publicity from elsewhere it is because they judge that they have a monopoly and that their hedgemony is so strong that when it comes to publicity they have more to loose than to gain and that it is best policy to focus only on shepherding their customers. And if they judge that, there is at least a good chance that it really is so, because they are where they are by getting this kind of thing right, not by getting it wrong. If that is the case, then we may deduce that every time someone mentions GW in anything like the same breath as one of their competitors, GW is harmed by the publicity. Not all publicity is good publicity when you have achieved a certain level of dominance. This is clearly a big problem for the industry and suggests to me that the "ignore them and they will go away" line from people llike us here on this site will not succeed in making them go away. Of course we are quite within our rights to ignore them. They just wont go away.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: grant on October 09, 2013, 01:29:06 AM
GW would make a good paper on how not to conduct yourself in the marketplace. Too big to fail?  lol
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: weismonsters on October 09, 2013, 02:03:46 AM
They may well fail at some point in the future. Most companies are not successful. There are a lot of unpredictable factors involved. So if a company is big, we might expect it to fail just on the basis of regression to the mean. This is something that Daniel Kahneman writes about in his book that i have on my shelf. He also argues that the perceived relationship between innovation or visionary leadership and business success is largely a bias generated by hindsight. And that initial business success is largely down to luck.

If that is the case then I guess the most effective way to stave off regression to the mean is to use power to try to change the rules or control the environment in order to preserve the status quo, rather than to continue to innovate.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: FramFramson on October 09, 2013, 04:35:04 AM
the most effective way to stave off regression to the mean is to use power to try to change the rules or control the environment in order to preserve the status quo, rather than to continue to innovate.

This is broadly true and usually happens once the company moves beyond its first-generation leadership. But sometimes not even that long.

The few exceptions tend to be companies where the founders really pushed a culture of accountability and/or innovation. Even that doesn't necessarily last forever.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Cubs on October 09, 2013, 09:30:53 AM
And if they judge that, there is at least a good chance that it really is so, because they are where they are by getting this kind of thing right, not by getting it wrong.

I broadly agree with your assessment, but for me this part is the whole nub of the gist, as it were. Did GW get where they were by making the sort of decisions they now make? Or did they get where they are on the back of the innovation and inspiration of a generation of designers they have now got rid of?

It seems to me that when GW started to act like paranoid dictators, that's when their numbers started to dip and people starting to get a bad taste in their mouth. GW have been a big company for a long time now, but they didn't start to generate the sort of bad press they now get until the last few years.

GW will almost certainly survive and still be here in ten years, but only because they will see that a change in policy is needed. They may even be bought out and see the boardroom replaced, who knows.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: zemjw on October 11, 2013, 08:53:07 AM
Just read this (http://bluetablepainting.com/new-hope-games-workshop/) blog post that suggests there are signs of some changes at GW.

The main one is that their head lawyer has departed/been fired. No idea whether that's good or bad news. Direct link to that story (http://bloodofkittens.com/blog/2013/10/09/network-news-gw-fired/)
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Cubs on October 11, 2013, 09:33:03 AM
I hope this heralds the biggest change of attitude and policy since Darth Vader lobbed his employer down the pipe in 'Return of the Jedi'.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Franz_Josef on October 11, 2013, 02:50:35 PM
Yes, but I'm sure they'll continue with the cricket bat swords!!
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Diakon on October 11, 2013, 06:59:59 PM
Probably won't see any massive changes to be fair. She'll just be replaced by someone extremely similar. I don't really care if they're going to be doing more interaction with fans and leaking tidbits about upcoming releases if the new releases continue to be super awful (Space Marine Termie-Tubbies) or quite nice but ridiculously overpriced (dark elf infantry boxes). Can't see the legal folks having much say on the design of the sculpts or the pricing.

Also slight change of track but I recently uprooted a bunch of early to mid-nineties white dwarfs and I've been really enjoying reading 2nd edition 40k battle reports again. Not to mention that they have all sorts of interesting articles in them about building terrain, scratch building sci-fi tanks from WW1-modern era model kits etc. Such a shame it's just an expensive advertisement for their products now, when it used to be a top quality magazine.

Oh well.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: weismonsters on October 12, 2013, 03:05:02 AM
I suspect the seeds of these things were sown very early on. Certainly White Dwarf stopped advertising non-GW products nearly thirty years ago. It often happens that the real seeds of decadence are sown just when things are perceived to be in their glory days. I remember a religious pastor I knew once making this same point regarding churches. Could it be the case also with GW?

There was a nice article "Freedom in an owned world" originally published in Vector Magazine which used to be on the internet but has unfortunately disappeared. It was an interview with various authors who had worked on Warhammer novels and such, and offered a kind of skeptical view of GW in the late eighties early nineties. Many of those criticisms seem the same in essence to the ones that are made today. Most notable was an almost obsessive fervour about their intellectual property.

As to what was their original source of success, I dont know because it was probably a bit before my time. The Fighting Fantasy gamebooks were the only thing i can really identify as a real winning idea. But as far as I understand those were a seperate venture by Jackson and Livingstone with the publishers, not GW as such.
Warhammer ever since I became familiar with it was always something that owed some of its success to hype, the kind of hype that can only be generated by some established status. After all the rules did not quite work really. We were told in white Dwarf they were great and we saw these pics of great tense battles with beatiful minis. Meanwhile, when we tried to play them, often our minis looked awful and one side or other won easily due to rules imbalances.

As i mentioned above, I can see why a company resorts to stifling opposition and propaganda. Relying solely on generating new winning ideas is rather like hoping that lightning strikes twice. However, morally, it should not be so essential to be a massive success and make lots of money. Rather just to do what you love, take satisfaction out of genuinely giving something to customers and make enough to get by in reasonable comfort. I daresay that that mentality of giving something to the gamer continued to exist or coexist with the new one even after the logical foundation had been cut from under it, just by inertia. But eventially it seems to have died, and that is the situation we have now.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: grant on October 12, 2013, 03:18:24 AM
I think the days of free and helpful hobby content are dead. The new model of digital articles I found a bit shocking when I came across them. £2 for what should have been free
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: FramFramson on October 12, 2013, 04:34:41 AM
I think there's a boatload of free an helpful things here on the LAF, many of which are far better than any tips or tricks I ever saw in a copy of White Dwarf.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: grant on October 12, 2013, 05:11:21 AM
Oh, don't get me wrong - I don't GW, any more ...  lol
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: gimzod on October 13, 2013, 04:50:01 PM
Well didn't think GW could get anymore insane but have you seen the prices on the sisters of battle?  :o

Anyone know a similar looking miniatures i've been looking for some for a game of in the emperors name.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: FramFramson on October 13, 2013, 06:36:23 PM
There are new Sisters of Battle?!

That's the only army my buddy would play and all he ever does is go an about how refuse to make new models and nerfed the Sister's rules so badly as to make them unplayable, all part of GW's No Girls Allowed ethos.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: gimzod on October 13, 2013, 06:44:39 PM
New codex and same miniatures I think.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Dolmot on October 13, 2013, 07:04:10 PM
New "digital exclusive" codex.

Edit: nevermind this latter part.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: joroas on October 13, 2013, 07:11:32 PM
Well, I have no intention of spending any more money on any of the new codexes, etc., for my WH Armies.  :o
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: FramFramson on October 13, 2013, 10:02:13 PM
Oh okay. That sounds more correct (you'll note that so far all the other updated Codex releases have come with new miniatures too). I think that new codex was a the subject of some bitch becuase it only makes the Sororitas worse to play.

Which seems funny to me. I mean in this day and age, female warriors are a big hit (thanks to one motivation or another) with nerds. Seems silly to spit on free money - especially if you're GW.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: grant on October 13, 2013, 10:05:53 PM
Holy shit. $45 for a digital download. A new low for Games Workshop!   o_o
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: FramFramson on October 14, 2013, 01:06:32 AM
Oh okay. That sounds more correct (you'll note that so far all the other updated Codex releases have come with new miniatures too). I think that new codex was a the subject of some bitching because it only makes the Sororitas worse to play in the current environment (I don't personally know this for sure - it's just what the two people I know who play Sisters have told me).

Which seems funny to me. I mean in this day and age, female warriors are a big hit (thanks to one motivation or another) with nerds. Seems silly to spit on free money - especially if you're GW.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: grant on October 14, 2013, 02:48:31 AM
Holy shit. $45 for a digital download. A new low for Games Workshop!   o_o
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: FramFramson on October 14, 2013, 03:35:05 AM
What the heck?

Why did the last two posts get quoted/duplicated?
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: beefcake on October 14, 2013, 10:51:50 AM
Games workshop conspiracy if you ask me.  lol
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Momotaro on October 14, 2013, 03:18:40 PM
There are new Sisters of Battle?!

Those are the old figures at new prices.  Yes, that is a Retributor squad of five heavy weapon troops selling for £43:

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat660016a&prodId=prod2270016a
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: pocoloco on October 14, 2013, 03:34:57 PM
Well, like a Finnish saying goes more or less, it's not stupid to ask [for a high price], but it's stupid to pay [a high price].
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: joroas on October 14, 2013, 04:19:17 PM
My old armies must be worth a fortune!!!!!!!
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: grant on October 14, 2013, 04:26:23 PM
My old armies must be worth a fortune!!!!!!!

 lol

When I sold my GW stuff, I was getting obviously less than retail for new in box stuff, but it was still more than I paid - because of time! Thanks, GW! You make the secondary market worthwhile.

Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Dolmot on October 14, 2013, 05:30:39 PM
Those are the old figures at new prices.

That's one slick product update.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: joroas on October 14, 2013, 05:54:24 PM
£430 for an army half the size of mine!!!!!!  :o ...and they're not even new figures!!!
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: grant on October 14, 2013, 06:31:02 PM
£430 for an army half the size of mine!!!!!!  :o ...and they're not even new figures!!!

Time to sell...  lol
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Kitsune on October 15, 2013, 08:15:06 AM
Well, like a Finnish saying goes more or less, it's not stupid to ask [for a high price], but it's stupid to pay [a high price].

+1

Its only insanity if people actually buy it.  :)
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: The Voivod on October 15, 2013, 09:39:50 AM
people will.
I have no doubt of that.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Momotaro on October 15, 2013, 11:18:01 AM
Time to sell...  lol

I bought a pile of LotR figures in metal a few years back, when eBayers were having trouble shifting them for £1.

Now... :o
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: joroas on October 15, 2013, 11:26:28 AM
Nearly £9 for a Heavy Weapons Sister is not nearly as outrageous as £18 for the new plastic SM commander......

How do kids, or even adults, afford this stuff any more?
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: cheetor on October 15, 2013, 12:17:29 PM
Anyone know a similar looking miniatures i've been looking for some for a game of in the emperors name.

Mega Miniatures used to stock some "Shock Sisters" that look a lot like the Sororitas shown in the back of the Rogue Trader rulebook, but I dont know who they sold the moulds to recently.  Im sure that Johnny at Mega Miniatures will supply you with that info if you mail him.  The miniatures were originally part of the Demonblade line I think.
(http://www.nick101.f9.co.uk/Gallery/Miniatures/ShockSister.jpg)

Excalibur miniatures sell a few slender armoured, tooled up nuns like this:
(http://www.excalibur-miniatures.com/shop/images/product_images/popup_images/284_0.jpg?XTCsid=plcfpfpham89ksivofu65p41l1)

Eureka make some unarmoured nuns-with-guns (http://eurekamin.com.au/index.php?cPath=204_207_220).

Foundry make a nice spec ops nun called Sister Wendy (IIRC).  Reaper make a couple of armed nuns.

I now return this thread to its usual format.  Howls of outrage may resume schedule in five, four, three...

Oh hang on, I almost forgot: has there been any news on the rumoured Inquisitor themed box set release (codenamed "Innocence"?).  I played Inquisitor themed games of 7TV all weekend and I am really hoping that the rumoured set materialises.

Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Kitsune on October 15, 2013, 02:47:29 PM
If thats the quality choice of other space nuns, no wonder GW is raking the cash!
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Mason on October 15, 2013, 02:58:05 PM
I played Inquisitor themed games of 7TV all weekend and I am really hoping that the rumoured set materialises.

Any more info or piccies, sir?

It sounds interesting.
 :D

Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: cheetor on October 15, 2013, 03:16:42 PM
Any more info or piccies, sir?

Absolutely :)

Loads of slightly wobbly snaps were taken that should give a good idea of the fun had (and it was good fun, lots of laughs).  Its going to take me a few days to get the photos presentable and write blog posts for them though.  I will post on here (http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=54622.0) about it in a couple of days with a bit of luck. 

So my interest in the rumoured Inquisitor themed skirmish game is running high.  Its right up my street at the moment so I very much hope that it materialises.

Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: joroas on October 15, 2013, 04:12:46 PM
Quote
Oh hang on, I almost forgot: has there been any news on the rumoured Inquisitor themed box set release (codenamed "Innocence"?).  I played Inquisitor themed games of 7TV all weekend and I am really hoping that the rumoured set materialises.

I asked at GW recently, the local manager gave me that I have no knowledge spiel, which, TBH, was probably correct......
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: FramFramson on October 15, 2013, 04:36:07 PM
Warhammer Online shutting down: http://www.warhammeronline.com/article/Warhammer-Notice-Shutdown

Supposedly the game was deeply flawed (built around PvP, but the factions were grossly imbalanced) so that's part of the reason. But also apparently they're going to replace it with an army-based MMO using the Total War engine, so as to have something closer to the tabletop experience (i.e. you command armies, rather than playing PvP).

Plus the 40k MMO is coming out soon and that one is solo/team play again, so I guess they wanted to differentiate their offerings.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Dr Mathias on October 15, 2013, 04:58:12 PM
Excalibur miniatures sell a few slender armoured, tooled up nuns like this:
(http://www.excalibur-miniatures.com/shop/images/product_images/popup_images/284_0.jpg?XTCsid=plcfpfpham89ksivofu65p41l1)

Eureka make some unarmoured nuns-with-guns (http://eurekamin.com.au/index.php?cPath=204_207_220).



How did I not know about those? I will shamefully admit to being interested in the Sororitas codex. I already have all the models... a small fortune for sure.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Vermis on October 15, 2013, 09:15:57 PM
If thats the quality choice of other space nuns, no wonder GW is raking the cash!

 :D

Warhammer Online shutting down: http://www.warhammeronline.com/article/Warhammer-Notice-Shutdown

Now that makes me feel old. Jumped in on the forums when it was announced as an RPG, joined a guild in anticipation, followed it through development hell for a few years; then it got turned into a PVP, goodies-vs-baddies, WOW clone and the bottom fell out. Never actually played it after all.  ;D
Armies sound interesting, if it's much like Dark Omens. What's Total War like?
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: OSHIROmodels on October 15, 2013, 09:43:54 PM
So my interest in the rumoured Inquisitor themed skirmish game is running high.  Its right up my street at the moment so I very much hope that it materialises.

Will it be like the other recent 'Specialist Games' releases that were only limited run boxed sets though  ???

cheers

James
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Mason on October 15, 2013, 10:02:01 PM
Loads of slightly wobbly snaps were taken that should give a good idea of the fun had (and it was good fun, lots of laughs).  Its going to take me a few days to get the photos presentable and write blog posts for them though.  I will post on here (http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=54622.0) about it in a couple of days with a bit of luck. 

I have been following your RT thread avidly since its inception, so I will certainly not miss it.
 :D

I have to admit that this Inquisitor thing has piqued my interest too.


Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: joroas on October 15, 2013, 10:29:06 PM
But, as Jim, says, whatever it is will almost certainly be an unsupported one-off like Space Hulk and Dread Fleet.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Mason on October 15, 2013, 11:00:36 PM
But, as Jim, says, whatever it is will almost certainly be an unsupported one-off like Space Hulk and Dread Fleet.

To be honest, if there was enough to make it worth buying in the box, I don't see that as a problem.
Plenty of scope for everyone to make their own ideas work and expand it in whichever direction you wanted to.

Let us see what they produce.
If they do it...

Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: joroas on October 15, 2013, 11:18:54 PM
Well, if it is due out in November, as I heard, the story should unfold soon.....
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: OSHIROmodels on October 16, 2013, 05:54:06 AM
Well, if it is due out in November, as I heard, the story should unfold soon.....

Shit teaser videos inbound  ::) lol

cheers

James
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: beefcake on October 16, 2013, 06:14:36 AM
:D

Now that makes me feel old. Jumped in on the forums when it was announced as an RPG, joined a guild in anticipation, followed it through development hell for a few years; then it got turned into a PVP, goodies-vs-baddies, WOW clone and the bottom fell out. Never actually played it after all.  ;D
Armies sound interesting, if it's much like Dark Omens. What's Total War like?

Total war is great. The battles can be quite on the epic size so think big battles. It's kind of like civilisation but you control the battles. Units gather experience, have moral and so on so it really would suit whfb quite well.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Mason on October 16, 2013, 08:47:00 AM
Shit teaser videos inbound  ::) lol

 lol
Oh, yes!

.....but dont be posting them up anywhere, will you.
 ::)

Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Kitsune on October 16, 2013, 08:51:19 AM
Well, if it is due out in November, as I heard, the story should unfold soon.....

Latest word is that its a false rumour and not happening. Still half hoping its gonna turn up, but unlikely.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: OSHIROmodels on October 16, 2013, 10:00:04 AM
.....but dont be posting them up anywhere, will you.
 ::)



As if I could be bothered  ::)

cheers

James
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: cheetor on October 16, 2013, 10:35:31 AM
I asked at GW recently, the local manager gave me that I have no knowledge spiel, which, TBH, was probably correct......

Thats sounds like SOP alright.  In an era of Kickstarters were people essentially pre-order toy soldiers about a year in advance it seems like peculiar practice for GW to do the exact opposite.  Im sure they have their reasons [SHRUG].


To be honest, if there was enough to make it worth buying in the box, I don't see that as a problem.
Plenty of scope for everyone to make their own ideas work and expand it in whichever direction you wanted to.

Thats how I feel about it too.  At worst an Inquisitor game is going to be a box full of cool plastic stuff that can be shoehorned into my other games.  GW boxes are still decent value and the quality of any new sets will surely be outstanding (Dreadfleet may have been a dodgy game but the plastics in it were beautiful.  Space Hulk was fantastic all round).

Honestly I would prefer if GW didnt support any potential release but that it was open ended enough to allow easy incorporation of existing 40K stuff.  Wishful thinking maybe, but one day GW might move back to the small game leading to the bigger purchase model that they used to get my cash from me for years.

I dont need another money pit, but a one off purchase of some choice plastics and hopefully scenery and/or objective marker type things would be perfect for me.

All the above assuming that its actually a real release of course :D

Latest word is that its a false rumour and not happening. Still half hoping its gonna turn up, but unlikely.

Oh.  Balls :( 

Do you have a link by any chance Kitsune?

Shit teaser videos inbound  ::) lol

I gave up looking at any of those after that one for paint that simply had the number "150" fading in and out of view.  I had to watch it twice to double check that it had streamed properly and that I wasnt having some sort of seizure lol



Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Cubs on October 16, 2013, 11:20:30 AM
I remember the first time the Inquisitor game came out, with its oversized figures. I think it was a really good idea as a concept, but the models were just too big. White Dwarf kept flogging the expired pony for a long time after everyone else had stopped talking about it I think.

I don't understand why they chose the scale they did (60mm wasn't it?), because it meant there was a limited range they could make, and each one was, of course, quite expensive. Maybe it was because being a skirmish game, GW knew they wouldn't sell many models so wanted to get plenty from them, or perhaps it was to stop people just using their old 40K models for it, or a bit of both.

I even remember when they brought out large scale plastic models back in ... let me think, '84? '85? It was their first dip of the toe into plastic models and they were pretty nice, although aimed at the younger gamer (they were really just toys). It didn't stop them turning up in our Warhammer games as giants (my brother still uses one ogre or troll as an enormous giant).

The big models just don't seem to be anywhere near as popular as 28mm, for whatever reason.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Momotaro on October 16, 2013, 12:23:17 PM
GW boxed sets are usually excellent value for money, and the quality of the models in them is high.

As for the rumours, who knows?  I can see a lot of people WANTING such a beastie from GW (me included), and I can see other companies are picking up the "boxed skirmish game + extras" as both a sweet spot and GW's blind spot, but GW seem set on their own path these days.

If it works for them, fair enough, but I'm another one who only goes into their shops once every few months to pick up some paints (I love their new base colours).

Cheetor, add me as another one who'd love to hear about your 7TV Inquisitor games!
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: FramFramson on October 16, 2013, 05:50:28 PM
I remember the first time the Inquisitor game came out, with its oversized figures. I think it was a really good idea as a concept, but the models were just too big. White Dwarf kept flogging the expired pony for a long time after everyone else had stopped talking about it I think.

I don't understand why they chose the scale they did (60mm wasn't it?), because it meant there was a limited range they could make, and each one was, of course, quite expensive. Maybe it was because being a skirmish game, GW knew they wouldn't sell many models so wanted to get plenty from them, or perhaps it was to stop people just using their old 40K models for it, or a bit of both.

I even remember when they brought out large scale plastic models back in ... let me think, '84? '85? It was their first dip of the toe into plastic models and they were pretty nice, although aimed at the younger gamer (they were really just toys). It didn't stop them turning up in our Warhammer games as giants (my brother still uses one ogre or troll as an enormous giant).

The big models just don't seem to be anywhere near as popular as 28mm, for whatever reason.

Probably because once models get beyond about 40mm, the amount of space you need to store terrain, figures etc. becomes enormous. It's also much harder to do large games. Yes, of course that's intentional/known, but plenty of people like the versatility of being able to use the same figures for both skirmish & mass battle games (as you yourself pointed out).

I honestly think that the reason 25mm-40mm is so popular is because it's the "sweet spot" in terms of size. Easy to do large and small scale battles and games, space required isn't TOO huge, and the figures are big enough to see and paint smaller details.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: OSHIROmodels on October 16, 2013, 06:34:07 PM
Maybe they're doing a Foundry and in a couple of years everything will be alright again  :D

cheers

James
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Westfalia Chris on October 16, 2013, 09:10:38 PM
Maybe they're doing a Foundry and in a couple of years everything will be alright again  :D

cheers

James

Don't say things like that, man! A flying pig just flew by my window and almost crashed into our neighbours' house! And can you imagine what de-frosting the frozen hellscapes will cost, in this day and age with current energy prices?

;)
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Dolmot on October 16, 2013, 10:30:04 PM
The big models just don't seem to be anywhere near as popular as 28mm, for whatever reason.

I think the typical GW gamer is still someone who's bought a bunch of 28mm minis for WH**, gradually expands to tournament-legal, hopes to get them painted some day, and considers building a bit of terrain after that. Also, he's more likely to start another half-painted horde than actually get to the terrain-building phase. Within 28mm WH games, at least something you own may be reusable - that bag of trees and a generic ruin or whatever. However, starting another game in a new scale, incompatible with everything you own and pretty much requiring a set of elaborate terrain generally isn't an option. Especially when none of your friends are playing either and there are no tournaments.

And if you treat 54mm minis as 1/32 or something, your 4' table represents less than 40m of action space. I'd find it a bit silly to deploy minis with firearms on a field which can be crossed in less than ten seconds and everything is within a thrown javelin's range to start with. Why not just play a RPG if you're there for the plot rather than ten-second tennis court combat mechanics? At least it won't cost you £30 per player character.

I only remember hearing once about two guys playing Inquisitor, and they were using 28mm stuff. I'm not sure if I've ever actually seen a game of it. That's how popular it was in a country with zero official GW stores to hype it back then.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: zemjw on October 17, 2013, 09:03:31 AM
Quote
Those are the old figures at new prices.  Yes, that is a Retributor squad of five heavy weapon troops selling for £43:

There are a bunch of these sets available, all under the "new" banner - http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/armySubUnitCats.jsp?catId=cat440161a

What I find most interesting is that they're still metal - they've not even tried to convert them to resin. I suspect this also means they will be online only, as I doubt any of the stores are allowed metal anymore  o_o
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Kitsune on October 17, 2013, 09:21:34 AM

Oh.  Balls :( 

Do you have a link by any chance Kitsune?


No link, but the WD cover for November only has Dark Elves and WFB stuff mentioned.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: joroas on October 17, 2013, 02:49:10 PM
So, I have no will to buy yet another Codex or Army Books, and it is some years since I played with my toys, so.........  Where is there a good place to offload four GW armies plus all the assorted books and paraphernalia that go with them?  I can't ever see them being used again.  :'(
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Argonor on October 17, 2013, 09:55:52 PM
Where is there a good place to offload four GW armies plus all the assorted books and paraphernalia that go with them?  I can't ever see them being used again.  :'(

The Bazaar or eBay, I'd guess  :)
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Cubs on November 01, 2013, 08:31:57 PM
Just to prove I try to remain even-handed at all times, a big thumbs-up to the GW paint-pot designs.

I bought two pots of the ... something weird-named earthshade, the new version of Devlan Mud ... in town and although I found the contents of the pot to be too thin for what I wanted, the design of the lid is a work of genius. The way the little tab engages when the lid is lifted and pushes it clear of the side of the pot at just the right angle ... I just love to see something that has been nicely engineered.

It went into my gloopy mess pot anyway, as part of my 'Shade Mix' potion.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Argonor on November 03, 2013, 07:43:19 PM
Just to prove I try to remain even-handed at all times, a big thumbs-up to the GW paint-pot designs.

I bought two pots of the ... something weird-named earthshade, the new version of Devlan Mud ... in town and although I found the contents of the pot to be too thin for what I wanted, the design of the lid is a work of genius. The way the little tab engages when the lid is lifted and pushes it clear of the side of the pot at just the right angle ... I just love to see something that has been nicely engineered.

It went into my gloopy mess pot anyway, as part of my 'Shade Mix' potion.

Well, they couldn't do any worse than the previous version that wouldn't stay open, could they, now? I have to use a matchstick to hold those open.

Taken into consideration that paint pot lids staying open after opening have very much been the standard for as long as I can remember, it hardly is worth giving GW credit for using some that does (too)...?
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Cubs on November 03, 2013, 09:07:33 PM
No, it's more than that - have a look at one. There's this little tab at the back and it engages with the lid when opened in such a way that it holds it, elongated spouted pointed right back into the belly of the pot, without closing or leaning back (thus preventing drooling of the paint around the rim or down the pot). Fair's fair, I reckon this is something the designer (whoever it may be) should be proud of, because it's such a simple thing and it manages to do what no pot lid has done before for me - ie, stay put exactly where I want it.

Not enough for me to buy the product inside though, because the Army Painter ink was better for me, but I believe in giving credit where it's due.

Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: zemjw on November 18, 2013, 10:46:10 AM
Discussion on BolsLounge about the retirement of F***Cast linky (http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?36951-Finecast-is-Dead) (reposted from a thread on WAMP)

Not sad to see it go. I have just ordered the new limited edition White Dwarf figure, and I am not confident about getting a useable figure first time.

Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Westfalia Chris on November 18, 2013, 12:18:53 PM
Quite interesting.

I seem to remember that back when FC was released (or unleashed, depending on your PoV) there were suspicions that this was a stopgap move before a total shift to injection plastics. Personally, I didn't have too many issues with it, but I only bought one or two figures made from the stuff.

I suspect they are trying to reduce their supply and manufacturing complexities to save on costs, not actually do their customers a favour.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Hammers on November 18, 2013, 12:27:19 PM
Well FoulCast turned out to be a short lived experiment,  wasn't it. I am not surprised. I figure there is only so many ways you can market a gold painted turn before the market actually catches up on that it is indeed just a turd. Plastic is a better option and I accept them those miniatures as compliments. I will stick to metals as long as they are around.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: FramFramson on November 18, 2013, 09:25:03 PM
I suspect a non-zero part of the calculation were the number of replacement requests they had for Finecast figures.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: OSHIROmodels on November 18, 2013, 09:46:50 PM
Be interesting to see everything they release in plastic though. Should be quite useful for bitz sorry, bits...

cheers

James
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Westfalia Chris on November 18, 2013, 09:52:59 PM
Be interesting to see everything they release in plastic though. Should be quite useful for bitz sorry, bits...

cheers

James

I'm not as optimistic for that - if the "clamshell" aspect is true, then the figures will essentially be single-pose items, not multipart boxes (e.g. the Space Marine commander).

That said, I wouldn't be surprised if there might be a "command pack" for the Space Marines that contains parts for their respective character types (Captain, Chaplain, Librarian and Sergeants). I'd actually thought they'd do that for the current Codex as a reworking of the Command Squad box, or in conjunction with it.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: OSHIROmodels on November 18, 2013, 09:54:56 PM
To be honest, I didn't read through the whole thing  lol

But I'll wait and see. I can't remember the last time I bought a 'fresh' GW figure. Over five years at least  :?

cheers

James
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Cubs on November 18, 2013, 09:55:37 PM
I was only ever sent one Finecast model to paint by a customer. It's the only model I have ever returned to a customer unpainted. It was truly awful.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: FionaWhite on November 18, 2013, 10:52:04 PM
Is it weird that this is the best news involving GW that I've heard of in a long while?  :D
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Dolmot on November 19, 2013, 01:14:31 AM
I have little reason to care about the coming or going of finecast as it's not my problem, but I still think this pic manages to summarise a point oh-so-eloquently...

(http://www.the-guardians.org/nalfen/failcast.png)
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Too Bo Coo on November 19, 2013, 01:20:11 AM
Such a shame that they had to charge so much for all of the super special R&D that went into Finecast, and now it all goes into the bin! :(

I never have, and never would buy that crap. Pocky brittle garbage.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: grant on November 19, 2013, 02:43:39 AM
Such a shame that they had to charge so much for all of the super special R&D that went into Finecast, and now it all goes into the bin! :(


LOLWUT?  ??? ??? ???

What R&D? They took resin, and poured it into metal molds. Zero thought.

There was nothing wrong with Forgeworld's resin - implying they had a centre of knowledge next door. Would they get those guys to lead the way? Not a chance. Just reinvent a crooked, bubbly, warped and badly overpriced wheel.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Too Bo Coo on November 19, 2013, 03:01:48 AM
LOLWUT?  ??? ??? ???

What R&D? They took resin, and poured it into metal molds. Zero thought.

There was nothing wrong with Forgeworld's resin - implying they had a centre of knowledge next door. Would they get those guys to lead the way? Not a chance. Just reinvent a crooked, bubbly, warped and badly overpriced wheel.

Sarcasm Mate :O

But I do recall the sales when it first came out talking about how much research went into this wonderful new resin 'finecrap'...
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: grant on November 19, 2013, 03:33:59 AM
Sarcasm Mate :O

But I do recall the sales when it first came out talking about how much research went into this wonderful new resin 'finecrap'...

Damn you, internet!  lol

Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: OSHIROmodels on November 19, 2013, 09:14:12 AM
I was under the impression that it was always a temporary move until everything could be done in plastic. I'm sure I read it somewhere  ???

cheers

James
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Modhail on November 19, 2013, 09:41:16 AM
Now that I know the prices of the new plastic clamshell (single pose) Space Marine Commander and Librarian, GW's switch from Finecast to all plastic doesn't seem like such good news anymore...  :?
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Dolmot on November 19, 2013, 11:32:47 AM
Now that I know the prices of the new plastic clamshell (single pose) Space Marine Commander and Librarian, GW's switch from Finecast to all plastic doesn't seem like such good news anymore...  :?

What, the prices didn't decrease? ???
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Diakon on November 19, 2013, 10:18:39 PM
That mono-pose commander is more expensive than the multi-part commander box set (which I think is still available). And there's tons of extra bits on the old ones sprue. Jump packs, cloaks, heads, weapons etc. Much better value if anyone is thinking of buying the new one.
Also just checked. £18 for mono-pose. £14 for multi-part kit.  ???
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Vermis on November 19, 2013, 11:08:33 PM
I have little reason to care about the coming or going of finecast as it's not my problem, but I still think this pic manages to summarise a point oh-so-eloquently...

*snip*

 lol

I'm like Scurv on the current Reaper bones topic: I have a couple of finecast minis and they seem fine. Flash not much worse than some plastic or metal minis I've seen. Minimum, barely noticeable bubbles. Mind you, I have seen and heard plenty of horror stories too; and I haven't had to buy scads of it for units and army-building, or set it out on a game table or a warm windowsill...

I'm another one under the impression it was a stopgap too. It came after a period of hearing smaller manufacturers complain about how the price of tin was skyrocketing, and it seemed they were slowly grinding towards all-plastic anyway. The cost of tin probably gave them a kick in the pants to hurry it along, and it looks like finecast gave them another one. :D

That mono-pose commander is more expensive than the multi-part commander box set (which I think is still available).
Also just checked. £18 for mono-pose. £14 for multi-part kit.  ???

Back when Epic was still a thing, a mate was checking out the price of a few things. He found out that if you wanted the sprues of strip bases, it was cheaper to buy a box of epic orks, keep the bases, and throw the orks away.

In other words, the way of the Games Workshop is like the coming of blood from the stone.

Bleedin' mystery.

Scurv: some of their new dark elf stuff (first all-plastic army! For fantasy anyway) isn't too bad... until you see the price tag, obviously.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Too Bo Coo on November 19, 2013, 11:44:47 PM
I have enough minis for a proper night goblin army.  It'll never get painted, but I have it in boxes under my desk.  I do have to say, I was thrilled to get the old Marauder Giant for $30.00 brand new in the box.  i remember looking at this in issues of Dragon when I was a kid.  That will be a nice addition for my soon-to-be Otherworld Skirmish game....

But GW, we're done with each other.  Yeah, I'll buy a pot paint on sale here and there, but no new minis.  The few times I go into my local GW shop, there's not much here in Amsterdam, they dont even hassle me to play their games.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: FramFramson on November 21, 2013, 01:30:25 AM
have they actually put out any decent stuff recently? Last time I bothered to look it was those driller killer marine things.

The new Dark Elf cavalry box has some potential.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Gibby on November 21, 2013, 08:09:39 PM
They've priced me out really, and the design of their main games has gone a bit too cartoony/World of Warcrafty for me. Doesn't evoke the fluff at all. The big monsters are like something from a Saturday morning cartoon. In a bad way.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: beefcake on November 22, 2013, 04:19:52 AM
Ignoring the price of any GW stuff because we all know its ridiculous I quite like the look of the dark elves, not all of them but the medusa looks cool. I remember having the old one from the nightmare set. For some silly reason I chopped the hands off. Still have it knocking around though. Maybe it might be time to convert it with a bow and arrows.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Momotaro on November 30, 2013, 08:46:34 PM
I've just picked up the skaven from Island of Blood, and 92 goblins from the Hobbit to use as skaven slaves.  Ebay, I know, but I got the lot (140 models) for £50.

The skaven models from the starter box are great - doubly so considering they're mostly two-part models.  Hardly any mouldlines, and tons of wonderful detail - there are rats scurrying all over the models, sitting on their heads and hiding under their robes.

The goblins are heartbreakingly lovely.  Nicely detailed, I actually felt sorry for the poor, deformed wee mites as I painted them up.  All single-piece minis, almost no mouldlines, 18 different poses.  They would be great for a tribe of post-apoc/sci-fi mutants, ghouls or cavern-dwellers.

Sad, because they're about the last thing I'd look at if I was buying high-fantasy goblins, and it ain't even GW's fault.

I also really like their new paints - the base colours are just fantastic, with great coverage and they're in a good range of bright colours.  Even the pot of drybrush paste I tried last week worked well.

'Course, we're looking to play another ruleset with the figures, because the Warhammer rulebook and army book for them would cost more than the figures...
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: OSHIROmodels on November 30, 2013, 08:50:48 PM
£15 for one figure  lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol

cheers

James
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Vermis on November 30, 2013, 11:14:30 PM
I've just picked up the skaven from Island of Blood, and 92 goblins from the Hobbit to use as skaven slaves.  Ebay, I know, but I got the lot (140 models) for £50.

The skaven models from the starter box are great - doubly so considering they're mostly two-part models.  Hardly any mouldlines, and tons of wonderful detail - there are rats scurrying all over the models, sitting on their heads and hiding under their robes.

Nice, aren't they? :) I'd get more meself, but I'm trying to scavenge some from the regular set, so's I can leave shields off for slaves. But nice idea with the Hobbit gobbos. I am looking for some mutated-looking slaves, too.

Quote
'Course, we're looking to play another ruleset with the figures, because the Warhammer rulebook and army book for them would cost more than the figures...

Maaaaayheeeeem... ;)

Quote from: jimbibbly
£15 for one figure  lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol

Forty quid for a bunch of heads in little bits of barrels!  ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: weismonsters on December 01, 2013, 01:37:25 AM
Talking of expensive single miniatures... The other day I came across some nice Citade Mercenary Militia on ebay. Was wondering if it was worth bidding 3 quid each for them. In the end i saw that LAM is actually selling something quite similar with higher quality scupts so I didnt bother.
Checked back today and in fact two of the Militiamen had sold for 72 pounds each. The most overpriced minis I have ever seen. So it seems second hand GW stuff can be even more crazy prices than the new stuff.


Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Vermis on December 01, 2013, 01:57:10 AM
There wouldn't be a particular oldschool revival artificially inflating prices, would there...?
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: weismonsters on December 01, 2013, 02:21:48 AM
Apparently.

Personally I am all for oldschool revival in terms of WHFB early editions and such like. But when it comes to the minis, I would go for a mix and match approach. There are some great "old school" style models that can be found from various companies, which are still in production and often sell for 1 or 2 euros a mini. It helps keep those companies going, not overinflating the prices, and you can play old warhammer to your hearts content. Everyone is a winner.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: grant on December 01, 2013, 04:15:23 AM

Checked back today and in fact two of the Militiamen had sold for 72 pounds each. The most overpriced minis I have ever seen. So it seems second hand GW stuff can be even more crazy prices than the new stuff.

That is obscene!

I will be getting the Desolation book, I am a LOTR/Hobbit fan, but simply can't afford their minis anymore. On top of that, GW charges a 2:1 exchange rate for Canadian stuff. That's faaaaaar out of touch of real exchange. Sad.

A friend game me 24 Mordor Orcs today, I have a smallish army on the go. That lot would have cost me the same as an entire Bolt Action army!!! Luckily he got them cheaply on ebay.

GW has now relegated LOTR/The Hobbit to Specialist Games status, so it's near death. The lack of a starter box for Desolation is a sign of how dire things are. GW is actually pricing themselves to death. Shame they don't realize the solution is to offer better value again, not less choice by killing lines.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Argonor on December 01, 2013, 12:40:08 PM
I should try selling some of my collection... I have Droves of 80's Citadel stuff still in original blisters.

I wonder what Goodwin wood elves would fetch...  ::)
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Momotaro on December 01, 2013, 12:55:43 PM
GW has now relegated LOTR/The Hobbit to Specialist Games status, so it's near death. The lack of a starter box for Desolation is a sign of how dire things are. GW is actually pricing themselves to death. Shame they don't realize the solution is to offer better value again, not less choice by killing lines.

Being charitable, I reckon the change to three films messed them around something awful.  The Battle of Five Armies would be my choice for a boxed game, and that was going to be this Christmas... then July 2014... now it's Christmas 2014.

So I imagine they had plans to do a Bo5A set this Christmas, then when it went to three films shifted it to next summer.  By the time the third movie was put back again, they probably didn't have enough time to do a dwarves vs spiders or elves vs orcs box for this Christmas.  Heck, an "Assault on Dol Guldur" set would have been fantastic :(

Agree about the pricing though.  I'd be interested in a box or two of hunter orcs, some warg riders and wargs, but that's £83 for 38 plastic figures :(
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: OSHIROmodels on December 01, 2013, 01:14:18 PM
How about the original Bot5A boxed set they did, is that still for sale?

cheers

James
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Donpimpom on December 01, 2013, 01:27:41 PM
GW has now relegated LOTR/The Hobbit to Specialist Games status, so it's near death. The lack of a starter box for Desolation is a sign of how dire things are.

where have you seen that? on the websites the Hobbit still has his own section out of the specialist games group.
IMHO the lack of box for Desolation it's a result of the awful sales of the first hobbit box, which probably had sale previsions at the level of the followers of the ring (just to make the final sales even worse)

I don't know in other countries but in Spain the sales of the Hobbit box where so bad that I have seen lots of retailers opening the boxes to sell them as bits.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Momotaro on December 01, 2013, 01:46:19 PM
How about the original Bot5A boxed set they did, is that still for sale?


Doesn't look like it - it's not on their website.  Reckon they'll want to do one with the movie characters.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: OSHIROmodels on December 01, 2013, 01:55:34 PM
So maybe it's a last, desperate attempt to make sales before they cut it completely and just rely on the two main selling ranges then?

cheers

James
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: YPU on December 01, 2013, 02:22:31 PM
You know I'm in with all the rage at the prices these days, but partially I am kind of sad about all this as well. I used to drool at GW miniatures as a kid and dream about what I would by when I grew up. Now I am an adult...ish, I have given up GW altogether because of their prices. I look at the website and I see new released that I would have been enthusiastic about year ago and now all I do is shrug.
I kind of miss that excitement and wonder at new fluff and products.    :?

Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: joroas on December 01, 2013, 02:39:22 PM
Well I bought loads of the Rings stuff when it was a big seller, but I am mightily pleased that I steered clear of The Hobbit.  Their prices are now at officially outrageous levels.........  I don't even venture in to the local store anymore!
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: weismonsters on December 01, 2013, 03:15:41 PM
YPU I agree. After a year of boycotting GW when I check back at their website to see their latest enormities just for old times sake, everything looks so disappointing.

Argonor, no idea what the elves would fetch. Based on my observations, these things dont seem to have much relation to quality. Some stuff sells for reasonable amounts and some is wildly inflated, depending on whats in vogue and what is deemed to be rare.

I have been boycoytting GW for a while. But on a personal note, it is slowly dawning on me that the ebay oop thing is also something I dont really want t participate in, because of the way it is set up to create a constant sense of bargains slipping through your fingers.

Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Vermis on December 01, 2013, 03:17:56 PM
YPU: IMO, that's where a lot of the rage comes from. GW know they're constantly pricing themselves past once-loyal players' cost and value thresholds, but they just don't care; even now, when their sales are dropping because of it.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Modhail on December 01, 2013, 07:38:25 PM
YPU, I understand the feeling all too well.  :(
I just can't get excited anymore, because, no matter how cool a new miniature looks, I know in advance it just never will be value for money anymore. The last thing that really killed it for me was the Adepta Sororitas and Inquisition codexes. They're two parts of the setting that I really like, but GW insists in only making them available in a format I neither can, nor want to, use. It's all just become so predictable and tiresome I can't even be bothered to get annoyed about it these days.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: fastolfrus on December 01, 2013, 07:43:03 PM
IMHO the lack of box for Desolation it's a result of the awful sales of the first hobbit box, which probably had sale previsions at the level of the followers of the ring

Given that the original "Limited edition" box is still available it makes you wonder just how limited it was.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: YPU on December 01, 2013, 08:02:30 PM
Given that the original "Limited edition" box is still available it makes you wonder just how limited it was.

Actually those goblins make pretty nice muties for sci-fi or post-apoc and the platforms are good terrain fodder from what I hear so getting one of those at a deep discount might not even be a bad idea.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: grant on December 01, 2013, 08:07:59 PM
It's all just become so predictable and tiresome I can't even be bothered to get annoyed about it these days.

I think that sums up the sheer ambivalence towards GW these days.  lol
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Timbor on December 01, 2013, 09:51:49 PM
Given that the original "Limited edition" box is still available it makes you wonder just how limited it was.


Limited to the number of copies they can sell?
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Diakon on December 02, 2013, 08:36:00 AM
If I was bonkers I would collect the really old ones where each warrior was a little work of art and individual.

Yeah when I first got into GW (92/93 ish) I loved Chaos Warriors and 40k Chaos Renegades. Especially the Champions. The new ones have no charm really. But  agree the previous, hunched ones were pretty cool too.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Mason on December 02, 2013, 09:13:05 AM
TBH the minis have lost a lot of charm as well mate.I personally think its when they started to get ultra realistic.
.......

This^

That sentence sums up GW for me.
When every figure that was produced had its own individual character.
Those were the 'golden years' of Citadel, for me at least.

Plastic box sets were good when they first came out, as you could build an ar,y fairly cheaply, if that was your thing, or stick to the 'character' models if you so chose.
Nowadays, 'cheap' is not a word that fits when discussing GW armies.
Sadly, 'characterful' is not either, at present.

Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: beefcake on December 02, 2013, 11:05:10 AM
Yep, the 90s chaos stuff was great. Glad I got the lost and the damned book, the golden era of GW really.
Dwarfs in barrels  :? All I'm going to say.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Hammers on December 02, 2013, 02:15:13 PM
How about the original Bot5A boxed set they did, is that still for sale?

cheers

James

I am in the market for one of those to. Looks like a fun, moderately sized game.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Too Bo Coo on December 02, 2013, 02:28:47 PM
This^

That sentence sums up GW for me.
When every figure that was produced had its own individual character.
Those were the 'golden years' of Citadel, for me at least.

Plastic box sets were good when they first came out, as you could build an ar,y fairly cheaply, if that was your thing, or stick to the 'character' models if you so chose.
Nowadays, 'cheap' is not a word that fits when discussing GW armies.
Sadly, 'characterful' is not either, at present.



But to be fair you're comparing apples to oranges.  When I think of the 'Golden Days of Games Workshop", I'm not even thinking 'Games Workshop' as much as 'Citadel' and 'Marauder'....  I think the former is quite different than the two latter companies.  

Years ago I remember watching an interview with Gene Rodenberry when he was discussing the development of TOS, he said that the executives insisted in watering down the show.  In their view, they wanted to reach the widest audience possible, and the nest way to do this was to make the program mediocre.  I'm suggesting that this is the general trend when marketing to larger audiences.

My lunchtime wanderings into the local GW shop, mind you the ONLY mini store of any kind in Amsterdam, are fewer and fewer....  There is just nothing inspirational there at all, which is sad because it was GW that REALLY got me into the hobby....
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Mason on December 02, 2013, 03:26:49 PM
But to be fair you're comparing apples to oranges.

Yep, and them oranges are ruddy expensive!
 ;)

Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: grant on December 02, 2013, 03:34:35 PM
I am in the market for one of those to. Looks like a fun, moderately sized game.

Battle of the Five Armies was basically Warmaster, with a Hobbit theme. I have it, and all the metal blisters that came out for it, including Smaug. :)
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Donpimpom on December 02, 2013, 03:43:26 PM
But to be fair you're comparing apples to oranges.
100% Agree, despite GW keeps the same name there are two companies, the (lets call it) golden era GW, of boardgames aimed to old teens and young adult in the loop of wargames.
That company crashed, and was bought in the last instance to be reshaped as a toy maker for kids, the current GW, keeps the same name and brands, but it's a different company, different product, different customer target
The more time passes the less of the old GW remains, even the oldest employees has been fired in the last years.
Compare the modern GW with the old one is like comparing modern Disney with the company doing films in the 40s.
mm re-reading this maybe sounds a bit trollish, if so I'm sorry but i'm in my lunch break and I have no time to rewrite it :-)
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Mason on December 02, 2013, 03:48:45 PM
mm re-reading this maybe sounds a bit trollish, if so I'm sorry but i'm in my lunch break and I have no time to rewrite it :-)

No worries, mate.

I happen to agree.
I am just one of those that remembers the 'good old days' of GW fondly..... :'(

It just rankles to see what they have become.*



*A bit like modern day football, but that is another topic entirely....

Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: joroas on December 02, 2013, 04:10:34 PM
Do you remember the Old White Dwarves that catered for a variety of games and RPGs, not just their own? Judge Dredd, Dr Who, Star Trek, Paranoia, D&D and Runequest to name a few, along with wide ranges of figures.  Now it is just a glossy advert for their latest toys in their three, shortly to be two, core, and only, games!

Sad, but in keeping with where their whole marketing strategy has gone.  :'(
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: YPU on December 02, 2013, 04:33:52 PM
Battle of the Five Armies was basically Warmaster, with a Hobbit theme. I have it, and all the metal blisters that came out for it, including Smaug. :)

From what I hear warmaster is pretty good and instead of a wide point build system having two pretty much pre-made armies should allows the designers to have created interesting match-ups so, the questions stands. Is it any good?

I think a friend of mine has it, pretty sure he mentioned years ago he thought I should paint the minis as he couldn't really be bothered with that scale. actually was that set 6mm or 10mm? cant recall.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: grant on December 02, 2013, 05:08:53 PM
10mm. Really good system; it has spawned Black Powder, Hail Caesar, and Pike & Shotte now too. Great fun, innovative command system. Oh, and the Blitzkrieg/Cold War Commander series too. So it's solid.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Vanvlak on December 02, 2013, 05:10:16 PM
From what I hear warmaster is pretty good and instead of a wide point build system having two pretty much pre-made armies should allows the designers to have created interesting match-ups so, the questions stands. Is it any good?

I think a friend of mine has it, pretty sure he mentioned years ago he thought I should paint the minis as he couldn't really be bothered with that scale. actually was that set 6mm or 10mm? cant recall.
Speaking as someone who rarely manages a game, and who hasn't played Warmaster in years, at least basing on memory it IS good, and emphasises the need for leaders spread across the army to control the troops, for example.
It's 10mm - the models are 10mm scale, but could be played with 6mm models.

Besides Warmaster and BoT5 there was also Warmaster Ancients, with historicals in mind.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: grant on December 02, 2013, 05:55:40 PM
Completely forgot about the Ancients sets! My bad!  :'(
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Vanvlak on December 02, 2013, 06:11:49 PM
Completely forgot about the Ancients sets! My bad!  :'(
Well, I had no idea that Black Powder et al were derived, so I guess we built up the full picture.  :)
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: YPU on December 02, 2013, 06:13:42 PM
Well, that settles it, I am dragging him over with his boxed set if I have to.

I recall going looking for that set on the GW site last year or so and finding it gone. In my mind it was still that "new" game from them. I started feeling old then.  lol
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Modhail on December 03, 2013, 09:18:51 AM
Back in the day the art certainly inspired the sculptors. I think that is still the case today, but nowadays the artists seem to also have gotten the brief to have the art closely match the sculpts... Leading to a closed feedback loop and an increasingly uninspired idiosyncratic style. As well as a lot general turdpolishing to increase sales thrown on top of that.  :'(

Remember, these days Games Workshop no longer produces games for customers, they produce profit for shareholders, "customers" are merely a resource used in the manufacture of their main product "dividend". (Wow, cynicism, I actually do still care... a bit, I guess.... Nope, it's gone again... :?)

Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Vanvlak on December 03, 2013, 09:51:58 AM
I liked John Blanche's big battle scenes. And on the rare occasions they showed models painted by him, the style he used matched his artwork - or so I thought - right doen to the palette used.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Too Bo Coo on December 03, 2013, 01:24:31 PM
No worries, mate.

I happen to agree.
I am just one of those that remembers the 'good old days' of GW fondly..... :'(


I think we all feel that way Mate :)
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Hammers on December 03, 2013, 02:04:31 PM
I think we all feel that way Mate :)

The White Dwarf battle report used to be bloody brilliant reads to bring to the shitter.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Too Bo Coo on December 03, 2013, 02:18:06 PM
BUT, and here's a BIG BUTT, many of the new games and minis with game with are by-products of the GW machine.  Disaffected GW staffers off to take their industry knowledge and begin their own gaming companies.  Often with better merchandise and games (Not that that's too hard).  So in a strange way, thank you GW for being such turds and motivating people away from your games into new directions.  I've said it quite often lately, with the demise of the Golden Days of GW has given birth to a whole new generation of games and game companies and well, it's never been better to be in this hobby!

That said, there are a handful of new games and game companies that have shamelessly tried to match the GW Model and have their initial offers in the form of overpriced components and half-baked games (Road/Kill anyone??) but thankfully Gamers are more savvy today as well, and those projects seem to die quick and well-deserved deaths....
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Donpimpom on December 03, 2013, 04:03:34 PM
The White Dwarf battle report used to be bloody brilliant reads to bring to the shitter.
agree, WDs and miniature catalogs by citadel or foundry are the best "Throne readings" ever... well maybe DIY catalogs too
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Momotaro on December 03, 2013, 04:44:24 PM
I liked John Blanche's big battle scenes. And on the rare occasions they showed models painted by him, the style he used matched his artwork - or so I thought - right doen to the palette used.

Ian Miller's art for GW (as seen above) defines Warhammer/40k for me. Angus McBride's covers for the old MERP RPG do the same for Middle-Earth.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Dolmot on December 03, 2013, 04:46:10 PM
and here's a BIG BUTT

Well, people tend to like them (or lie)...
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Too Bo Coo on December 03, 2013, 04:47:32 PM
Well, people tend to like them (or lie)...

Word is, the other brothers may deny.... lol
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: joroas on December 03, 2013, 05:17:10 PM
I'm a Librarian and I prefer this version:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tuZSfvHHMr4
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: FramFramson on December 03, 2013, 06:51:19 PM
So apparently the new big 40K online multiplayer battle game is going to be made by the same folks who made Ride to Hell: Retribution.

http://www.pcgamer.com/2013/12/02/warhammer-40k-moba-storm-of-vengeance-announced/

This is interesting, because while I didn't play Ride to Hell: Retribution myself, it seems people I know - and the internet in general - have some, uh, salty things to say about that game and it's makers:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VA3vijm17Bs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zo2k7nm-4nc

Given GW's current philosophy, I wonder if this was a case of the lowest bid winning.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Cubs on December 03, 2013, 07:33:50 PM
The hysterical laughter reminds me of 'Oh, ladder goat ... you're so random.'

(Have a peek on Youtube if you're confused) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ggB33d0BLcY
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Too Bo Coo on December 09, 2013, 11:03:34 PM
Well, I have good news.  it seems, the more things change, the more they do indeed stay the same!

Earlier today, whilst enjoying the Letters column in this back-issue of White Dwarf (issue #70, from October 1985), I chanced upon this little gem of letter. Enjoy.

"Dear WD,

"Yes it's me again, and yes I have written to complain, again! It concerns this month's supposedly 'Giant Sized' edition [WD68]. On counting the pages that actually include articles and not ads, and by comparing them with last month's edition, I find that articles in WD this month have increased by. . . one whole page!

"I find this quite incredible when nine of the thirty-four pages of ads are advertising Games Workshop products and events. OK, so WD is still the best RPG mag, but if you increase advertising space as much over the next two years as you have over the last two, then in 1987 we are going to have eighty pages of ads and twenty of articles.

"You may not give a damn about the image of RPGs but some of us out here do, so buck your ideas up or you'll not only lose a few readers but lower the whole tone of RPGs to the level of the cretinous cartoon and plastic bendy toy image.

"Yours angrily,
Lee Mansfield, High Wycombe."
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: joroas on December 10, 2013, 12:11:29 AM
Damn, I think Lee could sue them for nicking his idea!  Are ideas IP? :D
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: grant on December 10, 2013, 12:44:42 AM
Holy crap, people hated WD even then!!!

Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: FramFramson on December 10, 2013, 08:21:38 AM
But was WD 80% ads in 1987?  ;)
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Modhail on December 10, 2013, 09:47:17 AM
All I know is that it's been a 100% for at least the last half-decade or so...
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Mahwell skel on December 10, 2013, 01:34:49 PM
But was WD 80% ads in 1987?  ;)

Ah but only 20-40% GW ads depending if you count Citadel Minatures as GW... ;D

"yours angrily" Must have failed his CL test just after failing his WP test to buy the mag
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Dr Mathias on December 10, 2013, 04:58:20 PM
Well, I have good news.  it seems, the more things change, the more they do indeed stay the same!


Thanks for posting that, funny as hell. I love reading things with hindsight :)
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Too Bo Coo on December 10, 2013, 05:32:24 PM
Thanks for posting that, funny as hell. I love reading things with hindsight :)

My pleasure to share it, I thought it was quite fitting given the conversation :)

As a historian I understand our habit to romanticize the past, and I would say 1985 is about square int he center of the Golden Era, and even then there were concerns over GW's business sense.  I also have tons of old Dragon mag's and VERY seldom did I read such letters....
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: carlos13th on December 10, 2013, 05:53:25 PM
So apparently the new big 40K online multiplayer battle game is going to be made by the same folks who made Ride to Hell: Retribution.

http://www.pcgamer.com/2013/12/02/warhammer-40k-moba-storm-of-vengeance-announced/

This is interesting, because while I didn't play Ride to Hell: Retribution myself, it seems people I know - and the internet in general - have some, uh, salty things to say about that game and it's makers:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VA3vijm17Bs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zo2k7nm-4nc

Given GW's current philosophy, I wonder if this was a case of the lowest bid winning.


and GW complain about people who make compatible parts diluting their brand.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Gibby on January 04, 2014, 01:12:12 PM
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440160a&prodId=prod2340096a

The look and feel of their games has now definitely up and left me well behind.  lol
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: carlos13th on January 04, 2014, 02:50:41 PM
No one is doing as good a job diluting the GW brand as GW themselves.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: pixelgeek on January 04, 2014, 04:54:27 PM
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440160a&prodId=prod2340096a

The look and feel of their games has now definitely up and left me well behind.  lol

Its a massive gribbly thing with a huge distended maw full of bitey tentacles. Looks quite nice actually but the price is a bit ridiculous
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: beefcake on January 04, 2014, 07:38:04 PM
I thought some new tyranid minis might actually get me interested in purchasing... Nothing great there though.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: joroas on January 04, 2014, 09:13:36 PM
Took a look, not remotely interested, even ignoring the price.  Am I cured?  8)
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Cubs on January 04, 2014, 09:15:45 PM
Took a look, not remotely interested, even ignoring the price.  Am I cured?  8)

I think it's called remission. You're officially cured if you outlive the company ... or something.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Chico on January 04, 2014, 09:18:25 PM
Took a look at the 'nid.. shrugged and went back to painting Squats heh
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Vermis on January 04, 2014, 09:37:40 PM
My first wargaming army was tyranids, and I gotta admit I'm with general Frother opinion on this - tempted to dig all those unpainted termagants out of the bottom of The Box.

Not how I might've designed (http://modernsynthesist.blogspot.co.uk/2011/05/art-of-warren-beattie.html) a haruspex (http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-NgeRJVjDmFc/Tci31r6SO1I/AAAAAAAAAI0/p665_xuOL0Y/s1600/Haruspex+concept_Warren_Beattie.jpg), tho.   ;)
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: zemjw on January 09, 2014, 02:38:58 PM
Just saw a post on WAMP saying that White Dwarf is about to change. Original source here (http://natfka.blogspot.fr/2014/01/the-monthly-white-dwarf-magazine-is-dead.html)

Basically, a weekly magzine called "White Dwarf Visions" and a new monthly magazine called "Warhammer Visions".

My subscription's about to expire, so I think I'll open a box of popcorn and watch this from the sidelines  :D
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Dr.Falkenhayn on January 09, 2014, 03:06:32 PM
 lol lol
"It's called White Dwarf Visions and it's true.
They will focus on talking about the hobby and community more so than being a sales magazine."

wow,they came to this conclusion all by themselves?
i wonder what they're charging for the new Monthly 230Pages strong,supa dupa "Vision"  >:D

Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: zemjw on January 09, 2014, 03:17:32 PM
Quote
i wonder what they're charging for the new Monthly 230Pages strong,supa dupa "Vision"

The current bottom comment on the blog page is quoting 3.2 Euros ($4.30) for the weekly thing and 10 Euros ($15) for the monthly fix, although again, no idea if that's true.

I wouldn't mind so much if they discussed the hobby, but they only admit to the existence of the "Hobby", which gets tiresome :-[


edit to fix typo
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: pixelgeek on January 09, 2014, 03:20:07 PM
So they have found a way for their fans to pay three times the current rate for their magazines.  o_o
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Modhail on January 09, 2014, 03:54:19 PM
Will they still deliver it to the stores and subscribers a consistent 2 weeks late?

I find the whole rumour rather confusing... They apparently intend that the weekly White Dwarf Vision will focus less on sales and more on "the Hobby™©", but isn't GW's vision of the Hobby™© "Buy as much as you can"?
They also mention "community"... Do they mean the one the have been systematically ignoring and suppressing for decades now?

You do have to admire GW's dedication to trying to monetize absolutely everything though...
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: grant on January 10, 2014, 01:43:12 AM
As of this time tomorrow, I will only have one GW miniature, my silver demon winning Cave Troll. He just sits in my case. The rest of the miniatures, the books, the odd white dwarf? All gone. And good riddance, I say!  lol
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Dr.Falkenhayn on January 10, 2014, 02:26:54 AM

You do have to admire GW's dedication to trying to monetize absolutely everything though...

Priceless!  lol lol
i bought the Dark Vengeance Cultists 2nd Hand though my first GW "Miniatures" Purchase in Years.i keep buying their non 40K/FB Gameboxes,not to play with just for "the Archive" i have mint Copies of Necromunda,Space Marine,Gorkamorka,all the Figs still on Sprues etc

What still makes the GW Hobby unique imho is the feeling of collecting an entire Army,in most other Games the Feeling is more like a Bunch of independent Squads fighting together.No Matter how much you dislike the Sculpting Style,GW Armies on the Table always look impressive
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: FramFramson on January 10, 2014, 06:09:48 AM
silver demon winning Cave Troll

Ooh, Pics?
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: grant on January 10, 2014, 07:09:20 AM
Ooh, Pics?

Toronto GD, 2006: http://demonwinner.free.fr/peintre.php?id_peintre=1233
Kind of a hobby high point.  :)
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: FramFramson on January 10, 2014, 07:58:12 AM
 :D
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: zemjw on January 15, 2014, 03:47:12 PM
well, it's official (http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/wnt/blog.jsp?pid=12800022), White Dwarf is no more o_o

Not sure which of the new ones existing subscribers will get...
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Johnno on January 15, 2014, 04:16:37 PM
A clever ploy to get you in the store once a week
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Dolmot on January 15, 2014, 04:52:41 PM
A clever ploy to charge twice as much monthly for WD alone...

Well, actually I'm kind of intrigued to see, what kind of material they'll put on each mag. The current WD isn't particularly interesting even for occasional buying because 60% of it is dedicated to all-out pushing of the latest marine army that I don't (or won't) collect. However, in a weekly mag there could be a chance of spotting an odd hobby article that's worth shelling out 3e but not 8e (with 50 pages of marines around it) every now and then. I'll take a look, at least.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: joroas on January 15, 2014, 04:56:09 PM
236 pages is a lot to fill every month........  :o
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Mason on January 15, 2014, 04:57:49 PM
236 pages is a lot to fill every month........  :o

Especially if they have to produce a 'weekly' effort as well.
I guess they will think of something to fill those empty pages..... ::)

Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Dolmot on January 15, 2014, 05:03:00 PM
I guess they will think of something to fill those empty pages..... ::)

Or maybe they won't? Have you seen the page layout after the previous relaunch?
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: carlos13th on January 15, 2014, 06:12:17 PM
Especially if they have to produce a 'weekly' effort as well.
I guess they will think of something to fill those empty pages..... ::)



Adverts I imagine.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: OSHIROmodels on January 15, 2014, 08:33:39 PM
There have been a few instances of the magazine being more than worth the money when they showed projects, conversions, armies, games etc of the staff members and also occasionally the sweaty GW public (I say sweaty by the mug shots used of the people themselves).

If more of this thing is included then it might be worth getting again.

cheers

James
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: pixelgeek on January 15, 2014, 08:38:32 PM
236 pages is a lot to fill every month........  :o

My assumption is that a lot of that will be content from the weekly magazine. They have two markets, the regular gamer who gets the weekly book at a store and then the casual person who will see the monthly magazine at a newsstand or book store.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Dr.Falkenhayn on January 15, 2014, 09:06:42 PM
"It’s unlike anything we’ve ever done before and this super high-quality visual feast weighs in at a whopping 236 pages, each and every month"

in other Words:every single Page worth 0.10£  ;)
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Modhail on January 15, 2014, 10:21:43 PM
super high-quality visual feast
Such a shame. You see, I prefer to read magazines, you know, words and stuff...       I like words...
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: pixelgeek on January 15, 2014, 10:31:31 PM
Quote
"It’s unlike anything we’ve ever done before...

So worth the money?
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Dr.Falkenhayn on January 15, 2014, 10:41:03 PM
"It’s unlike anything we’ve ever done before"...

oh Bugger i've heard these Words before  lol


(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-CgPsvprkytU/UoSl4aGszAI/AAAAAAAAAL8/eWOgt5f7K2w/s1600/n8e9x.jpg)
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Commander Vyper on January 15, 2014, 11:02:03 PM
"It’s unlike anything we’ve ever done before"...

oh Bugger i've heard these Words before  lol


(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-CgPsvprkytU/UoSl4aGszAI/AAAAAAAAAL8/eWOgt5f7K2w/s1600/n8e9x.jpg)


 lol
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Hammers on January 16, 2014, 09:30:45 AM
A clever ploy to charge twice as much monthly for WD alone...

Well, actually I'm kind of intrigued to see, what kind of material they'll put on each mag. The current WD isn't particularly interesting even for occasional buying because 60% of it is dedicated to all-out pushing of the latest marine army that I don't (or won't) collect. However, in a weekly mag there could be a chance of spotting an odd hobby article that's worth shelling out 3e but not 8e (with 50 pages of marines around it) every now and then. I'll take a look, at least.

I agree.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Hammers on January 16, 2014, 09:33:24 AM
"It’s unlike anything we’ve ever done before"

"...and it really shows that we don't have the experience."
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Belgian on January 16, 2014, 11:52:22 PM
Just found this news, GW revenue and profit have dropped seriously leading to a massive drop in their share value  ...

http://walladvantage2.blogspot.be/2014/01/chatter-behind-bike-sheds-profits-are.html
 (http://walladvantage2.blogspot.be/2014/01/chatter-behind-bike-sheds-profits-are.html)
http://troubleatthemill.blogspot.co.uk/2014/01/games-workshop-end-of-year-half-yearly.html (http://troubleatthemill.blogspot.co.uk/2014/01/games-workshop-end-of-year-half-yearly.html)
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Gibby on January 17, 2014, 12:10:42 AM
Hmm. They had better get those prices raised, and then severely cut the variety of stuff they sell. I mean, they got rid of Specialist Games so that's those money troubles sorted... but... I dunno, maybe a few more resin Hobbits and Dwarves at £12 will bring in the needed revenue? I know they are doing everything they can to preserve the business, so it's weird that their sales have dropped. Frankly I don't think they brought out enough Space Marines, and those they did are WAY too cheap; barely cover production costs!
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Vermis on January 17, 2014, 01:05:19 AM
Just read 6 pages worth of discussion over at Warseer, and TBH I feel a wee bit sorry for GW. It's like Lenny out of Of Mice And Men, just can't understand why all the fluffy little animals keep going limp and still.

I still like some of GW's stuff - their fluff, even if it is a 'borrowed' patchwork, and many minis. Wouldn't like to see those, or chunks of them, go down the pan.
Wouldn't mind seeing half the price tag do that, though. ;) No idea, as mentioned, if they'll ever get it into their heads to try it.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: FramFramson on January 17, 2014, 01:13:58 AM
They're still in the black and the IP's worth loads, so don't go crying on their account just yet.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Dr.Falkenhayn on January 17, 2014, 01:30:36 AM
easy Boys,dropping Profits during a Company's reorganisation (closing down Stores,new WD,end of Failcast etc) is what?like absolutely normal?They'll be back,bigger than before,ready to take finally care of the Bitz/2nd Hand Market on Fleabay and all the 3rd Party Bloodsuckers  lol >:D >:D

i have very little Hopes for the Monthly supa dupa GWism Mag tbh.They're not going to show old skool oop Stuff or heavily converted Armies  :?
lots of Grimdark blah blah,silly Tech drawings on high Quality Paper,200 Shots of the same boring SM Army,Army Shots,close ups,Mass Battles,Apocalyptic Mass Battles,Apocalyptic Titanic pre Heresy Traitor Legion Mass Battle,the ususal GW nonsens  lol the G stands for Grotesque methinks  lol
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Vermis on January 17, 2014, 01:43:12 AM
Well, like I said, there was six pages of the stuff and not all witless fanboy dribble. ;) Although...

They're still in the red

And I'm the pessimistic one? lol
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: FramFramson on January 17, 2014, 01:48:33 AM
Er, I meant black!  ;D

DURRRRRRR...
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: pixelgeek on January 17, 2014, 01:59:48 AM
I mean, they got rid of Specialist Games so that's those money troubles sorted...

Specialist Games made money.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Gibby on January 17, 2014, 08:01:22 AM
Specialist Games made money.

Indeed. My post was particularly sarcastic  ;)
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Cubs on January 17, 2014, 10:06:37 AM
The problem GW now have is that no-one trusts them. They have a much smaller customer base than they used to and none of the innovative hobby giants they used to rely on to come up with that next great idea. Their IP is not worth as much as it used to be either, after a succession of disappointing computer games.

They've flogged the family silver and alienated most of the people who migt have bought their products. They need really good ideas, but sadly have got rid of all the people who could have supplied them. They've always got an excuse as to why their lines keep going downwards - usually 'reorganisation'. A lot of companies go through extended periods of frantic 'reorganisation' before going under; it's just a standard response to a bad situation.

The Hobbit films were meant to be a blessed lifeline to keep them going, but it seems that isn't happening either.

I would like GW's value to dwindle to the point where someone who knows what they're doing can buy it out and run it properly. They need an entirely new business model because the one they have nuttured for the past couple of decades is all about short term gain and is now found wanting.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: zemjw on January 17, 2014, 10:34:21 AM
Part 8 (http://masterminis.blogspot.de/2014/01/the-future-of-games-days-games.html) o_o of Mastermini's dissection of GW's woes.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: joroas on January 17, 2014, 11:44:03 AM
Agreed, Scurv, but, like you, I have not bought any of their figures for years.  How many good customers have they priced out?
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Modhail on January 17, 2014, 12:00:15 PM
In GW's worldview? None. If price is an issue, you are not a good customer  ::)
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: joroas on January 17, 2014, 01:58:54 PM
I do the same with DVDs, £11 or £12 at first, but the price eventually rolls down to £3...........  :D

Granted, Australia is very expensive, as any Brit who has been there recently will agree, stuff doubles in price....  :-[
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Cubs on January 17, 2014, 02:52:31 PM
thus i may not be representative of the average minis person (or maybe that is what most of us are like after all who knows.)


We've all got our own way of doing things. 'Different Strokes' taught me that.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: pixelgeek on January 17, 2014, 03:24:58 PM
Agreed, Scurv, but, like you, I have not bought any of their figures for years.  How many good customers have they priced out?

Me for certain. I actually like the current 40K rules (prior to all the ridiculous expansions) but the price of an army is ridiculous. I was actually entertaining the idea of doing a Necron force but I looked at the prices and shelved the idea immediately. The same with the WFB Dark Elves. $70 Cdn for a box of ten figures is just not going to happen. Especially when I can get a box of plastic Bolt Action figs for half the price with twice the number of minis.

I won't even bother to compare it to the price of playing Pulp games like IHMN
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Argonor on January 17, 2014, 04:10:01 PM
Beasts of War:
'January 17, 2014 in Featured, Warhammer 40K by warzan
So yesterday had an interesting development, in a sudden slide in the value of Games Workshop stock upon the announcement that they had a sizable drop in turnover and a hefty drop in profits.'

http://www.beastsofwar.com/warhammer-40k/games-workshop-thinking/

I do not agree with the conclusions, but maintain the view that over-prizing has finally influenced sales (as it should, according to economics theory). If existing customers were still willing to pay higher and higher prizes, turnover should follow price rises at an almost 1:1 basis, and even if they were willing to spend the same amount (buying less minis), turnover should stay almost stable.

Even with fewer online retailers, there are sufficient sources for buying GW-stuff, so the whole online-retailer-dispute is not enough to explain such a drop in sales. Price simply exceeds perceived value of their goods, making more ppl think more than twice before investing their money in it.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: grant on January 17, 2014, 04:32:35 PM
I have sold off every book, mini, piece of terrain - I started in early 2nd edition, and had the collection to go with that time. It took me nearly three years just to sell all my stuff. Lord of the Rings was the last thing to go.

The Hobbit was just such a disaster. I used to play at a store that was the number one LOTR club in all of North America, as confirmed by GW itself. We had LOTR tournaments that rivalled the UK in size. War of the Ring (a blatant attempt to up-size LOTR) killed LOTR. The Hobbit could have revived that entry market, tied in with the films. Nope. A massive, insane price rise, followed by a predictable dearth of sales was what happened. So poor was the result that the latest film didn't get a boxed set - GW has even given up on the franchise.

I believe that the company is being prepared for the slaughter. Tom Kirby has his parachute on, and is waiting for the green light. Who cares what happens to the company? He is old enough that retirement is what's important. A massive buyout is just the thing for him. A slight downturn in stock price? Irrelevant when he is a restricted owner anyway. The sale of GW is what he needs to leave the company.

So long Games Workshop. I hope Hasbro, or whoever picks you up, is humane when they butcher you for the tenderest parts.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: joroas on January 17, 2014, 04:36:36 PM
I only have my Dwarves left, outside the specialist games.  I cleared out much of my stuff in the last few months.  Like you I was tempted by The Hobbit, but recoiled in horror at the prices.........
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Vermis on January 17, 2014, 05:16:48 PM
I can easily afford it I just cant justify it to myself. If all minis were that price I would just give up minis.

Ditto.

Quote
thus i may not be representative of the average minis person (or maybe that is what most of us are like after all who knows.)

I dunno. Your post made plenty of sense to me. And, I'd guess, plenty of others who 'contributed' to the drop in sales.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: joroas on January 17, 2014, 05:21:21 PM
There are enough folk on this site who were GW buyers, and would still be now, if they had not sacrificed their loyalty to us, in order to attract the temporary and sporadic loyalty of successive waves of teenaged gamers.........
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Vanvlak on January 17, 2014, 06:10:19 PM
I agree with Scurv's rationale on the prices - I can afford the stuff, but feel cheated if I have to pay the price, especially given that so many competitors produce lower cost models. Since 40 K and fantasy are the most-played games here in Malta I followed the trend, and it was fun for several years, but in common with others (I guess) I have a burn out which started some years back. In my case there were 4 factors, besides the price escalation:
1) I used to be active on the Tactical Wargames forum, and loved Epic, my first wargame ever; when support for Epic:Armageddon (the last edition) stopped many there - including myself - were cheesed off, to put it mildly. The forum still thrives, ad produces fan support and brilliant models, but the lack of official support was a blow.
2) the ever-changing rules, and the rapid obsolescence of models. I am slow at completing projects due to my work, and usually by the time I have made some headway in a project the force I am modelling becomes invalid. I remember a pair of dreadnought conversions for my marines, my beloved Legio Fausta, which were both (in spite of having different weapon fits) obsolete a few weeks after completion.
3) White Dwarf. Bought my first copy during our honeymoon (!) and used to love the battle reports and most of everything. I am terrible at remembering names, but I remember the articles promoting large units of cheap points cost models over elite troops at a time when this was done because it made tactical sense, and not to sell more models; and the very funny chap who was not an employee of White Dwarf, but made a regular series of articles on gaming at his club - some of them were hilarious; and good old fat bloke as editor, that was a good run. But when it was dumbed down, with articles actually having less text and more glossies of standard models, and conversions started to disappear....
4) Has a lot to do with (3). I remember a particular article which actually disparaged creativity in converting models, and said something on the lines that there was no original art after Michelangelo, or something like that - the point being that their product is the ideal and should only be assembled and painted, with conversions being futile and undesirable. I was livid when I read it - even my wife remembers my reaction from so many years back, and if I had to pick a particular 'end' to my following of GW, that was it. Over the years I have still bought the occasional model, with the second hand ones outnumbering the new, but my new purchases have dwindled to zero now, which is sad, as I still like some of their models.

Sorry for the long moan....
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Gibby on January 17, 2014, 07:35:56 PM
There are enough folk on this site who were GW buyers, and would still be now, if they had not sacrificed their loyalty to us, in order to attract the temporary and sporadic loyalty of successive waves of teenaged gamers.........

Exactly. I keep wanting to get back into Warhammer (love the fluff of the Old World) but the prices and Finecast just stop me in my tracks every damn time.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: grant on January 17, 2014, 08:11:06 PM
Exactly. I keep wanting to get back into Warhammer (love the fluff of the Old World) but the prices and Finecast just stop me in my tracks every damn time.

Every time I have a retro-build-an-army moment, the $800 price tag makes me wonder how I ever did it; I have more disposable cash today than ever, and wouldn't blow $800 on an army. It's nuts! I can do a million better things with that kind of money, and still have money left over to put into my hobby in a different company's miniatures. No, I'm afraid GW have crested the hill and are on the slide down now.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: pixelgeek on January 17, 2014, 08:25:55 PM
Every time I have a retro-build-an-army moment, the $800 price tag makes me wonder how I ever did it;

I doubt that the army costs were as high in the past as they are now. GW price increases have outstripped inflation for over a decade.

You can see it in the number of people that only have one or two armies. When I was actively playing people had multiple armies and it just isn't economically feasible any more
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Cubs on January 17, 2014, 11:32:20 PM
Gotta love 6-beer philosophy.

I must admit, the fact that I gave up Warhammer around the same time I started getting laid seems like a terrible coincidence looking back.

Is it also a coincidence that I became a professional model painter around the same time I got married?
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: grant on January 18, 2014, 12:11:28 AM
I doubt that the army costs were as high in the past as they are now. GW price increases have outstripped inflation for over a decade.

You can see it in the number of people that only have one or two armies. When I was actively playing people had multiple armies and it just isn't economically feasible any more

I think we talked about this the other day! You're exactly right: I had LOTS of armies back then. There wasn't even the thought of NOT starting a new army - it was which one, and what bits and stuff I would need. And then I did it! Today, it would just be one. That's all.

Sad? Maybe.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: smokezombie on January 18, 2014, 03:44:21 AM
had another thought about all this. Well I had a few but one is printable.

The Nerds (Geeks bite heads off chickens, you are not a geek fella.) have evolved and changed. They are at the top of the social heap now. Instead of being on the fringes of the entertainment culture they are driving it right now. Never has the competition for the nerd dollar been fiercer because what the nerds say is cool is taken up by the heard.

GW has not been included in this boom because its not fitting the new culture.

To expand slightly here is one example. Nerds have girlfriends now because they are seen as a socially desirable mate by the mainstream. I was on the PT the other day and there where was these 2 20 something girls and one of them had just been on a first date with a nerd. Long story short what struck me was she was instantly into the entire nerd culture thing and between her and her buddy had picked up enough from popular culture to already know how to do it. Date girl mentioned the fella had invited her to the aussie version of comicon and the other one says "oh you have to wear an outfit to those." (to which date girl replied yeah I am going as catwoman, which I can assure you she would of pulled off spectacularly)

Now that lucky fella is never going to spend his disposable on GW because its in a way anti girl. Girls have no place in GW land from its background to its aroma. Its unremittingly catering for that uber destructive nihilistic teen stage boys go through. The blowing up frogs segment of life if you will.

With the plethora of entertainment choices available he is going to pick things his girl will want to do too and he is not going to be short on choices.

To take it further would that guy even want to walk into a GW store with his girl. You have a stunner on your arm and you say he I dig games workshop minis lets go and get one. (being realistic with the pricing here  ;) ) You roll into the store and there is death metal thumping and 14 year old boys in their kill kill kill frenzies rolling buckets of dice and yelling blood for the blood god.... and then before she can start processing this there is a red shirt staring at her tits asking if he can help them.

Then she gets a whiff of the prices and its all over anyway cus sure as shit if you are going to waste money like that you are going to do it on her.

Take her comic shopping on the other hand and despite the same death metal there is no kill frenzy kids and the staff wait until she gets to the checkout before copping a sly one. On a more serious note there is also a huge range of product that is utterly accessible and desirable to her.

 

 

 

You have a way with words Scurv  :D

I love that post.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Cubs on January 18, 2014, 11:14:42 AM
whats 6 beer philosophy. I like that word combo but need to know what it means so I can use it myself. (google was no help)


I made it up (my gift to the world). That sort of wonderful logical thinking that only comes around the happily drunk stage, after the debris of everyday thinking has been melted away, but before absolute brain paralysis sets in. It can often be accompanied by emphatic verbalisation (especially when no-one else is there) and a forceful jab of the drinking vessel.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: carlos13th on January 18, 2014, 01:20:13 PM

I would hazard a guess something like super dungeon explore or rivet wars or some other 'cute' figure game would be far more popular with the female gaming demographic than 40k. Previous to those it was fantasy figs in general I suspect that had the predominant share of their spending dollar.



I can only speak in regards to my girlfriend in this instance but you are pretty spot on in regards to her.

I got into painting miniatures while I was with her and she got into them after painting a few of my models, she prefers something fantasy based over sci fi by a considerable amount. If we are talking about GW models she would take anything from WHFB over 40k. She does like the slanesh demons though which are technically both, tbh many of the models she likes tend to have some kind of cleavage on show.

You are also right that cutesy models like Super Dungeon Explore appeal to her, then again I quite like them too. Its not that she hates Sci Fi, we have been playing the Gears of War board game together. Its just she much prefers fantasy.
 
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Cubs on January 18, 2014, 02:37:56 PM
thats an excellent term. Put it in the urban dictionary.

Done!

She does like the slanesh demons though which are technically both, tbh many of the models she likes tend to have some kind of cleavage on show.
 

It's odd that a lot of the images considered 'sexist' are actually favoured by the gender apparently being discriminated against.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: pixelgeek on January 18, 2014, 02:44:29 PM
It's odd that a lot of the images considered 'sexist' are actually favoured by the gender apparently being discriminated against.

Showing breasts isn't sexist. All women have them. What the model is posed doing and how it is dressed can be sexist though.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Momotaro on January 18, 2014, 03:02:29 PM
To take it further would that guy even want to walk into a GW store with his girl. You have a stunner on your arm and you say he I dig games workshop minis lets go and get one. (being realistic with the pricing here  ;) ) You roll into the store and there is death metal thumping and 14 year old boys in their kill kill kill frenzies rolling buckets of dice and yelling blood for the blood god.... and then before she can start processing this there is a red shirt staring at her tits asking if he can help them.

I took an extremely blonde and buxom girlfriend to the Partizan show about 8-9 years ago.  I think a couple of guys actually exploded...
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: pixelgeek on January 18, 2014, 03:56:47 PM
I agree. I think the elmore art in the red book D&D of women is hot but not girly mag style. (http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-Mox0FY6pVIE/UGj69x9CG-I/AAAAAAAAAos/hM0yZhUePvA/s1600/Aleena%2Bby%2BLarry%2BElmore.jpg)

She is also fully armoured. Something that a lot of modern fantasy art fails to do.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Cubs on January 18, 2014, 04:25:25 PM
Farrah hair ... always gets the job done.

My brother once had a female fighter character in D&D. Her name was Brunhild and she was big, strong and ugly. He had a lot of trouble finding a figure for her ... I think he found one in the Citadel female fighters in the end, but had to wade through dozens of metal-bikini bints who apparently felt the best protection was a couple of hubcaps and a chainmal thong.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: grant on January 18, 2014, 04:28:18 PM
Farrah hair ... always gets the job done.

My brother once had a female fighter character in D&D. Her name was Brunhild and she was big, strong and ugly. He had a lot of trouble finding a figure for her ... I think he found one in the Citadel female fighters in the end, but had to wade through dozens of metal-bikini bints who apparently felt the best protection was a couple of hubcaps and a chainmal thong.

It's a good thing most dungeons aren't underground, cold, and clammy. Apparently they are all sun-filled, sandy beaches with walls.  lol

Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: FramFramson on January 18, 2014, 06:22:19 PM
It'll be interesting to see what games see better numbers as a reult of more women being introduced to the hobby. My buddy once said that for percentages of women playing, the hierarchy was something like RPGs >>> Nerdly Card Games (like Magic, etc.) >>> Tabletop wargames, and in my limited experince I'd say his assessment is right.

It's certainly not impossible for women to get into wargaming, without even going for the cute angle. The missus is actually interested in trying out Pulp Alley and is getting me to do up a league specifically for her.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: grant on January 18, 2014, 06:30:32 PM
My wife DESPISES my hobby. I got her to play two games, in our entire 20something years together: one game of that bean farming card game (she won, handily), and a game of Wings of War (she won, handily).

Wait ... maybe she doesn't hate my hobby, she just isn't challenged by it ...  lol
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: joroas on January 18, 2014, 06:41:10 PM
My wife has no understanding.  One game of Judge Dredd in 33 years and she WON! Oh! and she watched Star Trek IV, Indiana Jones II and the first quarter of LOTR I.  I think that is the limit of her wargaming viewing!  :'(
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Cubs on January 18, 2014, 08:03:52 PM
In my experience when women get into the hobby genre, they tend to be very good at it. Look at our own Helen and her Japanese army - they are just superb.

But there's certainly not enough of them, that's fer shewer.

Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Chico on January 18, 2014, 08:13:45 PM
My Wife actually games and paints her own toys (Currently this is Nurgle and Slaaneshi Demons) But she doesn't care much for the fluff. Were as I love the old classic one peice metals, she prefers the new mutli part plastics.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Argonor on January 18, 2014, 08:16:12 PM
Chico, you need to change the spelling of Oldhammer to Öldhammer.

And if you haven't the faintest idea what I'm talking about, try googling the new acronym  lol
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: beefcake on January 18, 2014, 08:18:25 PM
My wife doesn't understand why I paint little pieces of metal shaped into toys. She watches movies like lotr and enjoys them and likes the different sorts of card games but minis are too much of a stretch.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Chico on January 18, 2014, 08:29:37 PM
Chico, you need to change the spelling of Oldhammer to Öldhammer.

And if you haven't the faintest idea what I'm talking about, try googling the new acronym  lol

Hahaha love it :) Mulled Wine eh? Going to have to make some for the next meet up :)
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: grant on January 18, 2014, 11:04:36 PM
and is not engaged by the subject matter or is purpose I suspect.

Most of my GF's have liked the artistic aspect of the painting and thats as far as it goes. TBH thats always been fine with me. lots of them have had hobbies I dont get either.

If they did have a go it was just being polite, sort of like when we go to their pals places and feign surprise and delight that a: they figured out how to breed and b: it resulted in a little homunculus that smells bad most of the time and makes too many annoying noises.




 lol
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: carlos13th on January 18, 2014, 11:17:01 PM
and is not engaged by the subject matter or is purpose I suspect.

Most of my GF's have liked the artistic aspect of the painting and thats as far as it goes. TBH thats always been fine with me. lots of them have had hobbies I dont get either.

If they did have a go it was just being polite, sort of like when we go to their pals places and feign surprise and delight that a: they figured out how to breed and b: it resulted in a little homunculus that smells bad most of the time and makes too many annoying noises.



There is a lot to be said for a partner at least trying something they have no interest in though. At the very least they are open minded enough to give it a go.

Also when people say "Aww your baby is so cute" when you are actually thinking. Thats an ugly little thing staring at me. You cant go round someones house and tell them their baby looks funny.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Mason on January 19, 2014, 12:16:13 AM
I always screw it up and refer to the baby as an it. How old is it? that sort of thing. TBH its my least liked social engagement....

Gotta agree with you there.
A baby is a baby to me.

I just cant see what the fuss is all about.....
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: carlos13th on January 19, 2014, 01:12:19 AM
Part of it may be that the industry makes little effort to court them as customers. Women in war games are almost always to be looked at first and foremost.

It seems many developers don't even see women as a potential customers.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: beefcake on January 19, 2014, 02:21:58 AM
Gotta agree with you there.
A baby is a baby to me.

I just cant see what the fuss is all about.....

Kinds of on this topic, but a little sidetracked whenever I'm talking to a woman that is quite obviously pregnant I won't ask questions about when it's due, just in case she's just having a fat day (year/life?). She would have to screaming in a hospital pushing it out before I would ask that question... At which point it's both irrelevant, annoying and weird.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Westfalia Chris on January 19, 2014, 09:05:21 AM
As illuminating as this discourse is, may I remind everyone that this is the GW thread. Please try to get back on topic.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Dolmot on January 19, 2014, 01:03:18 PM
This must be the first time in this forum's eight year history when the moderators ask for more GW discussion. :o
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Westfalia Chris on January 19, 2014, 02:55:04 PM
This must be the first time in this forum's eight year history when the moderators ask for more GW discussion. :o

This is the GW Discussion thread, after all. As important as it is to get the better halves aquainted with and interested in the hobby, the discussion is straying off topic.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: fitterpete on January 19, 2014, 03:00:30 PM
I wish there could be more GW discussion here.Unfortunatly threads like this turn into a antiGW/I hate GW/your a putz if u like GW bitchfest.
Even sticking it here by its own has drawn them like moths to flame.There are,I think, quite a few who play or still use GW on this forum but I think they stay away from  GW discussion because of a very vocal (I wont say minority because they may be majority).
It reminds me of when I was a early teen and had to hide my historical figures from my classmates because of embarrassment or ridicule.
Sad really.
Carry on  
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Vermis on January 19, 2014, 04:16:14 PM
I wish there could be more GW discussion here.Unfortunatly threads like this turn into a antiGW/I hate GW/your a putz if u like GW bitchfest.

Can't speak for anyone else here, but I'd be surprised if I'm the only one whose GW antagonism in born out of frustration. A kind of a sense of betrayal, if that doesn't sound too sad. I know I'd still be buying GW minis by the shovelful if they were priced halfway decently. (recently my biggest GW spend has been occassionally picking Seb Perbett's excellent skaven off ebay for cheap) Like I said, I've been following some interesting discussions on Warseer's GW General Discussion board since the half-year results and stock drop were announced, and they're chock full of people who still like GW's minis and imagery, but can't justify the prices, the rules, and/or the business's practises. Again, like I said, it's a view held by some very level-headed and business-savvy people, as well as... people who aren't.

Quote
Even sticking it here by its own has drawn them like moths to flame.

Jings. I've been hanging around for ages, waiting for this thread to show some activity.

Quote
There are,I think, quite a few who play or still use GW on this forum but I think they stay away from  GW discussion because of a very vocal (I wont say minority because they may be majority).

Well, not to bang on about Warseer, but I see this thread as LAF's version of their GW General Discussion board: the people still into the nitty-gritty of the minis and games discuss releases, rules, and their own armies elsewhere. The unimpressed and disillusioned, people looking in from the outside (or in the process of being pushed out) tend to look at and discuss GW as a whole rather than small, specific matters in a single game. Inevitably they look at the general problems and faults of GW as a whole, that keep them on the outside. :) (Judging by your response, it means this thread's gaining the same reputation as Warseer's GW General, too. ;) )

If there's a dearth of other GW-related topics in Future Wars, Fantasy Adventures, etc. here, I'd guess a major factor is that 'elsewhere' is not another board or cluster of boards on this forum, but several different, whole forums dedicated to GW. Even some dedicated to individual GW races, let alone games! You'll probably get some discussion, inspiration and admiration for your space orks here, but you'll probably get a lot more somewhere like Da Waaagh.
On that note: from what I've seen, people still into the nitty-gritty of GW's minis and especially the games, tend to be very uninterested in the rest of the wargaming world. (The number of GW fans I've seen become furious in insisting that they're GW hobbyists, rather than wargamers!) Not so much that the LAF doesn't cater to them, IMO, as they couldn't care less about most of the stuff posted here.

(Me, I love the LAF. Other forums dedicated to specific games or genres are alright, but I only know three general gaming forums: this, Frothers, and TMP. Both with plenty of news but also plenty of idiocy, and I only go near Frothers anyway. Dunno what I'd do without this place!)
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Gibby on January 19, 2014, 04:46:08 PM
I wish there could be more GW discussion here.Unfortunatly threads like this turn into a antiGW/I hate GW/your a putz if u like GW bitchfest.
Even sticking it here by its own has drawn them like moths to flame.There are,I think, quite a few who play or still use GW on this forum but I think they stay away from  GW discussion because of a very vocal (I wont say minority because they may be majority).
It reminds me of when I was a early teen and had to hide my historical figures from my classmates because of embarrassment or ridicule.
Sad really.
Carry on  

I like GW's fluff and a lot of their models. I come to this thread to have a grumble about the way things are with GW in general as my negativity is generated by their business practices. I would utterly LOVE to be able to be really into Warhammer fantasy again, but for various reasons I am kept away by the way things are with the company right now. It's good to get the frustration out in the open. I definitely don't have a negative view of those whose personal line has yet to be crossed by the prices/quality or whatever. I don't think anyone here thinks that way, and indeed as Vermis says, a lot of the anti-GW talk is born of frustration as many of us were once keen GW-buyers/gamers.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Cubs on January 19, 2014, 05:47:58 PM
I fell in love with Citadel.

Games Workshop doesn't interest me nearly as much.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Cubs on January 19, 2014, 08:32:45 PM
Gotta agree with you there.
A baby is a baby to me.

I just cant see what the fuss is all about.....


Wait till you hold yours for the first time! Nothing is ever the same after that.

In fairness to GW I think a lot of their unpopular policies were good business sense. It's hard to make money off people who have already bought their armies and can then keep them for thirty years, playing against their mates every weekend. The odd brush and pot of paint from customers won't keep even a medium sized business afloat.

So, new models needed to be continually released and this meant that eventually the ranges needed to be completely overhauled. After all, the Warhammer and 40K universes are bound by self-defining limits an historical manufacturer isn't. In order to make sure that people didn't just stick with their old figures, GW then had to find a way to invalidate them - thus the rules and army books were continually overhauled.

Had they kept investing in the hobby clubs the way they used to, perhaps they could have kept this routine up indefinitely, by enforcing 'official' rules and controlling people's buying habits. As soon as they went down the route of maximising profit from a shrinking customer base, they set in motion a policy that by definition must eventually kill the business. Accountants always cut loss-making sides of a business first, even if it represents an important investment.

They need a new business model, that's all, and one that is sustainable this time. It's not too late, but the longer they leave it, the more it's going to hurt.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Vermis on January 20, 2014, 12:28:41 AM
It's hard to make money off people who have already bought their armies and can then keep them for thirty years, playing against their mates every weekend.

There are a couple of things wrong with that statement. And one of them's addressed by the first line in your post. ;)
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: FramFramson on January 20, 2014, 01:54:54 AM
I need funny stuff in my game universe these days.

Amen to that!
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: pixelgeek on January 20, 2014, 04:23:11 AM
Those early orc books ere we go and freebooterz and the other one were fantastic for dark humour.

Paul Bonner's artwork was very good for that sort of thing.

Regarding prices, I picked up some Plastic Miniature Company 28mm Russians today and got 56 infantry, two AT guns and eight support weapons for the same prices as one of the more expensive 40K or WFB plastic sets. So 70 minis and some guns for the price of 10 Dark Elf Witches.

Now the figures are nowhere as detailed as a GW kit but I bought all the troops I will probably need for a skirmish level game for what some poor schmuck pays for the *start* of a unit of WFB models.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: pixelgeek on January 20, 2014, 04:39:57 AM
I posted some commentary about the current profit/sales issues at GW on my blog

http://zac.calgarygamers.net/whatever/the-gw-death-spiral

Be interested in any comments people have
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: carlos13th on January 20, 2014, 05:41:51 AM
Lotr was what got me into miniatures. The magazine they did was quite honestly one of the best things they ever did for getting new people into the hobby.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: pixelgeek on January 20, 2014, 06:00:02 AM
The magazine they did was quite honestly one of the best things they ever did for getting new people into the hobby.

I don't think GW did that magazine did they?
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: carlos13th on January 20, 2014, 06:30:25 AM
Maybe not but it was certainly in partnership with GW, it was their models. It got people into GW stores.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: carlos13th on January 20, 2014, 09:44:44 AM
I think I purchases the mines of Moria kit off the back of the mags.

Now I would probably only pick up character models.

Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Too Bo Coo on January 20, 2014, 11:31:46 AM
I don't think GW did that magazine did they?

What was the name of the mag?
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: carlos13th on January 20, 2014, 11:46:22 AM
I want to say battlegames/wargames in middle earth or something like that.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Vermis on January 20, 2014, 11:46:51 AM
Battle Games in Middle-Earth (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_Games_in_Middle-earth), wuzzit?

I probably would've got it, and the boxed LotR minis, myself; but I disliked 'Peter Jackson's Lord of the Rings' so much, by the time I came round, the Great LotR Price Hike had begun.

Still have a single boxworth of primed rohirrim lying about here somewhere.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Argonor on January 20, 2014, 12:22:13 PM
I would still be collecting LotR/Hobbit minis, if the price tag was not totally beyond what I'm willing to pay for miniatures.

I'm not a hater (allthough I do admit that I find their two main rulesets completely outdated and rather tedious/slow to play), just a disgruntled former customer.

I have a great many Citadel (and Marauder) miniatures, and I do not intend to sell them off, I'm just using them for other rules - and do not buy any new ones (If I buy, I do so second hand).

I think the real problem might be the other way around: Some people can't fathom that other ppl can have something negative to say about GW, as it is still the main focus of their wargaming activities (and/or they have invested so much money/time that they are in total denial of any other ways than the GW way), and it is probably a bit unnerving for them to experience that actuallly so many have opinions not coresponding with their perception of the world.

As has already been pointed out, there's nothing to stop those individuals from discussing rules, army compositions, whatever in the relevant sections of the forum, but don't open this thread expecting praise for a company that has pissed so many ppl off with its business practices..
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: joroas on January 20, 2014, 12:26:03 PM
Yes, I bought loads (and still have most) of the LOTR and Battlegames.  Went to buy The Hobbit figures too, but the price stopped me in my tracks and, like a lot of us, walked away from being a purchaser.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: fitterpete on January 20, 2014, 12:34:49 PM
I actually went back and read Chris's intro to this thread.My mistake.
I thought everything about GW but pics of figures and AARs was supposed to be on this thread. I didn't realize rules and army list etc could go on the other areas.
Again my mistake.This really is supposed  to be the GW bitch thread ;)
carry on
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: joroas on January 20, 2014, 12:46:26 PM
Bitch Thread?  :o
I'm not sure.

This has more to do with people who used to love GW but are so fed up of GW's awful attitude towards them that they have turned against it, like a spurned lover.  If your attitude to your purchasers is "New Customers only" then the old customers will go elsewhere, this is not a great business model........ and the cracks have been showing for a while.  Stand well back when the dam bursts..... It will be a sad day for the wargames world.  :'(
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Argonor on January 20, 2014, 01:02:57 PM
Stand well back when the dam bursts..... It will be a sad day for the wargames world.  :'(

If it bursts, I'm pretty sure the franchise will be picked up by others. If the current pricing policy is continued, I fear it must happen, eventually. The prices are well beyond anything that would be perceived as the 'equilibrium price', even for a monopoly, as I see it.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Vermis on January 20, 2014, 01:38:44 PM
(and/or they have invested so much money/time that they are in total denial of any other ways than the GW way)

The sunk cost fallacy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunk_costs#Loss_aversion_and_the_sunk_cost_fallacy). I've seen it posted, more than once, that "I keep buying GW minis and playing their rules because I've spent too much to stop".

Closely followed by "I keep buying GW minis and playing their rules because I like the fluff".

Again my mistake.This really is supposed  to be the GW bitch thread ;)

Like I say, when you've been pushed away enough to take more of a bird's eye view of GW*, you don't usually see all that much to be positive about.

*As in, broader than the focus I've seen on the fact that hormagaunts in the new tyranid codex cost a whole point less.

I assume it's pretty much like the view of the shareholders right now, though from a different direction. ;)
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: carlos13th on January 20, 2014, 01:55:28 PM
I actually went back and read Chris's intro to this thread.My mistake.
I thought everything about GW but pics of figures and AARs was supposed to be on this thread. I didn't realize rules and army list etc could go on the other areas.
Again my mistake.This really is supposed  to be the GW bitch thread ;)
carry on

Its more a talk about the company as a whole thread rather than an individual models or rules thread.

Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Argonor on January 20, 2014, 02:05:55 PM

Closely followed by "I keep buying GW minis and playing their rules because I like the fluff".


Which is perhaps the worst anyone can use as an argument, as the rules, and the way they make ppl play the game, in NO way reflect the fluff.

We have here a squad of centuries old, battle hardened Space Marine veterans in 10.000 year old Terminator armour, the best humanity could ever produce, and... oops, gone....
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Vermis on January 20, 2014, 03:08:44 PM
 lol

Some of the rationalisations are... interesting. I've seen some proudly proclaim they pay the full price because it includes 'gaming in a GW store' and dismiss other rulesets because they're 'too abstract' (While pausing in the middle of a fight to tot up arbitrary points that hinge on whether you've got four guys or three guys in the back rank, for example) among others.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Vermis on January 20, 2014, 07:32:37 PM
I posted some commentary about the current profit/sales issues at GW on my blog

http://zac.calgarygamers.net/whatever/the-gw-death-spiral

Be interested in any comments people have

Wot, no blog comments enabled? :)

All pretty solid. However, I've already seen the deliberation that if they cut prices they'll just cut revenues and put themselves further in the hole. I'm not sure I entirely agree with it. Sure, cutting prices will affect them badly at this particular point in time, but if I'm reading right, RIM's problem (or the problem Mace is talking about) is market saturation. I don't think market saturation is GW's problem, no sir! They're huge for a wargames business, the biggest fish in the pond; but their biggest problem, to all appearances, is that their prices are driving off disgruntled customers, limiting what remaining customers will or can buy, and keeping potential customers away. Not so much market saturation as decreasing market penetration.

Lack of innovation - as Mace also mentions - is a problem for GW too. And game quality. And treating customers and distributors like ambulatory expendable wallets and despised enemies, respectively. And so on. But number one at the top of the list has got to be the perceived value of the minis and their ever-creeping price tags. I don't know if a drop in prices will bring enough newbies and grognards rushing back in time to steady their sales and revenues; but like we've been saying lately, and as I've seen plenty of people remark elsewhere, the 'GW hating' discussions you see everywhere are full of people who would like to buy GW minis again, if they weren't so much of an apparent rip-off.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: beefcake on January 20, 2014, 07:49:58 PM
I've actually noticed on trademe, (online auction site in nz) that the amount of second hand GW figures have dropped a huge amount probably by half, that has to be some sign, either that people now can't afford new so a lot more are buying second hand or that people can't afford to get rid of their old dark elves to buy the new ones.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Modhail on January 20, 2014, 11:16:33 PM
Having digested everything that has been said about GW after the announcement of the share value drop and financial report, it seems to me that GW's biggest problem these days is trust. People clearly still love their IP and product, or they wouldn't get so bent out of shape over all this. But GW has lost the trust of both consumer and independent retailer. Both groups seem to approach GW with an attitude of  "I wonder how they will screw us over this time?"
Judging by share value, they are now (maybe only temporarily) losing the trust of shareholders as well.

Behind all the gnashing of teeth over pricing, sales restrictions, casting materials and quality, design, lawsuits and such, over the past years, seems to be this basic dissactisfaction:
An increasing segment of customers (and "ex-"customers) no longer trust GW to deliver value for money or even to give consideration to their user experience/satisfaction.
Those consumers that  "evangelise(d)" the brand no longer trust GW to let them preach in peace. The spectre of the C&D is large these days.
Most retailers (at least the ones that I know) no longer trust GW to deal with them fairly or on equal terms, GW is seen as a necessary evil. It's no longer seen as a co-operative relationship, but an exploitative.
Now shareholders seem doubt if GW can give them return on investment, otherwise they would value the shares higher.
GW so far has always dealt with problems through business decisions/actions, rational* measures. But no business-like solutions can fix loss of trust.
I wonder if GW, with it's current company culture and attitude can find a way to fix this problem, or even correctly identify it.
If not, one can only hope that the IP gets picked up by someone who can.

During the recession banks weathered the loss of trust because no one, person or business, can function without them. I don't think GW is that indispensable...


*: Note: rational, as in "generated from the mind", not necessarily sensible or logical....
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Chaos Wolf on January 22, 2014, 02:17:31 AM
I just read elsewhere on the interwebs that GW is closing down several of it's regional HQ's and assigning the responsibility for their operations to other (presumably larger) HQ's. I also read that they were axing several of their armies from the the line of products. Specifically mentioned were Sisters of Battle, Bretonnians, Beastmen, Wood Elves, and Tomb Kings.

I'm not trying to spread rumors, was just curious if anyone here had heard/could substantiate the validity of this?
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: beefcake on January 22, 2014, 02:27:17 AM
I think that is more likely to be rumor than anything. Tomb kings was first to receive the new army book for WHFB so I doubt they would axe that. Beastmen has been a standard part of GW for a long time(although it was part of huge bigger chaos force list along with demons). I would be happy if they axed tomb kings and combined it back with vampire counts though. 1 undead force is all you need and I liked how the old undead book allowed you a variety of different general types for the army. But that's just my point of view.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Vermis on January 22, 2014, 05:04:45 AM
I think axing armies is a rumour too, but I have heard that they're moving certain boxes for each army (or some) to direct order only. With the usual breezy lark of kicking customers and retailers in the backside.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: FramFramson on January 22, 2014, 06:48:55 AM
Axing armies would be the final straw because honestly, they have most of the figures already made and once they go down that route, they literally won't have any product left to sell! I mean there hasn't even been a new Sororitas figure in ages anyway, nor does it look like they plan to make one (I always joke that this is because there's a big NO GURLZ ALOUD sign on the GW HQ), so I'm not even sure how axing the Sisters (for example) would even save money.

I doubt that particular rumour is accurate.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Mason on January 22, 2014, 09:57:54 AM
With all this talk about axing armies raising its head, it has made me think of those poor old Squats all over again.... :'( :'( :'(


I never did understand why they would do that then, and it makes even less sense now, when I know there is still a lot of love for them years later.
Bastards!
 >:(

(At least the Squats are alive and well in my sci-fi universe!).
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: OSHIROmodels on January 22, 2014, 10:17:56 AM
I remember seeing Jes Godwins sketches for the 40k version of Skaven. Rather Necromunda styley  8)

Question is, when they eventually go under will the original moulds be scrapped  ??? They must have literally thousand of old moulds.

cheers

James
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: beefcake on January 22, 2014, 10:47:59 AM
I know, bring back the realm of chaos stuff, zoats, screamer killer, aargh the list could go forever.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Cubs on January 22, 2014, 10:52:41 AM
If they weren't so sniffy about their IP, GW might have granted a licence for some of the fringe armies to other manufacturers. For a percentage fee, someone else could take the risk and expense and keep the franchise ticking over in full.

I never really understood why 'Chaos' was split into three anyway. I thought it was doing nicely with Warriors, Beastmen and Demons in the same army.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Modhail on January 22, 2014, 01:15:38 PM
Question is, when they eventually go under will the original moulds be scrapped  ??? They must have literally thousand of old moulds.

Sadly, I fear we may be up for a disappointment on that point...
Last I heard GW routinely scraps moulds once they stop producing a figure. Apparently the accountants think storing old moulds has a poor return on investment and they are rather fearful of someone snagging a few and casting them...  >:(
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: OSHIROmodels on January 22, 2014, 01:21:02 PM
Sounds about right  ::)

Never mind eh  :(

cheers

James
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Vermis on January 22, 2014, 01:29:03 PM
(I always joke that this is because there's a big NO GURLZ ALOUD sign on the GW HQ)

Lenton headquarters:

(http://www.screeninsults.com/images/the-little-rascals-clubhouse.jpg)

Well, it'll look like that in a few years, anyway. ;)

And in seriousness, it's probably not too far off GW's intended and encouraged demographic anyway, in terms of age and maturity.

With all this talk about axing armies raising its head, it has made me think of those poor old Squats all over again.... :'( :'( :'(

The term I've seen bandied about recently, is 'being squatted'.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Dr. The Viking on January 22, 2014, 01:29:50 PM
To think that GW would go belly up. Ah, well... probably won't change much.


Thinking about it it's the second time though, right?

There was some economical problems in the mid nineties forcing them to make a public company right?
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Mason on January 22, 2014, 02:11:18 PM
I never really understood why 'Chaos' was split into three anyway. I thought it was doing nicely with Warriors, Beastmen and Demons in the same army.

To try and get people to buy three armies...and three army books....and three sets of dice....etc...

I was once told by a 40k tournament player (and he knew his stuff as he came either first or second at the UK Grand Tournament that year...) that in order to be a REALLY good tournament player, you needed to have one of every Codex and study them as you need to know EXACTLY what EVERY component of EVERY army can do.

A little too much dedication for my liking, financially and mentally.... o_o o_o o_o

That would certainly seem to fit well with the GW marketing policy though.

Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Argonor on January 22, 2014, 02:15:57 PM
I was once told by a 40k tournament player (and he knew his stuff as he came either first or second at the UK Grand Tournament that year...) that in order to be a REALLY good tournament player, you needed to have one of every Codex and study them as you need to know EXACTLY what EVERY component of EVERY army can do.

That's really just an extra-polarization of the maxims 'know thy enemy' and 'knowledge is power'. The Warhamster rules are notorious in their endless posibilty of min-maxing forces to exploit the weaknesses of your opponent.

I know of an example where one guy made an all-flying Eldar army for a friendly(!) game vs Tyranids. His opponent never played again...
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: OSHIROmodels on January 22, 2014, 02:54:57 PM
I was once told by a 40k tournament player (and he knew his stuff as he came either first or second at the UK Grand Tournament that year...) that in order to be a REALLY good tournament player, you needed to have one of every Codex and study them as you need to know EXACTLY what EVERY component of EVERY army can do.

And where in that statement does 'game' come into it. Defeats the object really.

Power gamers  :-X :-X :-X

cheers

James
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: pixelgeek on January 22, 2014, 03:05:13 PM
And where in that statement does 'game' come into it. Defeats the object really.

Power gamers  :-X :-X :-X

Its why I avoid tournaments in general and why I tend not to play games like Flames of War which really seem to appeal to the hard-core power gamer types.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: pixelgeek on January 22, 2014, 03:06:17 PM
And in seriousness, it's probably not too far off GW's intended and encouraged demographic anyway, in terms of age and maturity.

Agreed. Look at the bastion of serious discussion and gender equality this place is.  ;D
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Kitsune on January 22, 2014, 03:18:59 PM
And where in that statement does 'game' come into it. Defeats the object really.

Power gamers  :-X :-X :-X

cheers

James

Well, its a tournament competetive game, which is what some people enjoy and go to the event for. Not my thing personally, but horses courses.

All of the tournament hardcores that I know (GT winner and a UK masters winner) have given up buying all of the codices now that its £30 a go or just moved to Warmachine.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: matthais-mouse on January 22, 2014, 04:30:25 PM
Well here is my two cents...

As much as I have always collected/modelled/gamed with games workshop miniatures and got had a lot of fun doing so, it has recently become too stupid to comprehend,
I mean, £30 for a codex/army book and stupid prices for models is making it a 'rich kids game'.
Not only is it stupidly expensive, the games constant rules changes have made it less and less fun,
The 'demolition' of the specialist games, the only real fun ones for me, (inquisitor, mordheim, BFG and necromunda) has meant a lot less models are available direct which has made the prices on ebay sky rocket for those genuinely interested in gaming with them.
and the recent anouncment of white dwarf going weekly is just SAD, waste of more paper and it will be just a load of bull%$*&

If they go belly up, then it is their own blasted fault....

Rant over....

For now  ::) haha
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: The Dozing Dragon on January 22, 2014, 04:57:44 PM
GW has never really stood a chance since the first LotR licence. The shares shot up and profits were wonderful for the vampire shareholders who have wanted the same ever since. They were warned it was a bubble that would not be repeated but for me it seems to have downhill product wise / price inflation wise since around that time.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Vermis on January 22, 2014, 08:15:36 PM
Agreed. Look at the bastion of serious discussion and gender equality this place is.  ;D

Point. lol  But I assume it's common knowledge that GW targets a young audience (~12yrs) to churn through, and this line of thought corresponds with yet others I've been reading about the XXXtreme grimdark cartoonifiying of GW's fluff over the years for that purpose.
I think the difference between them and us has a bit to do with that quote by CS Lewis: "When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up." (http://www.goodreads.com/quotes/84171-critics-who-treat-adult-as-a-term-of-approval-instead) To a kid, more specifically a preteen or young teen boy, the grimdark Liefeld-style antiheroes of 40K and their antics probably look dead badass and grown up compared to what might've interested them a couple of years before. Us, we know we're having a laugh and playing with toy soldiers, even though some of us (self included ;) ) can get a bit serious and argumentative about it at times.

Not so much he-man woman-haters here, as women-tolerated shed-putterers, I think? :) That's my brainfart anyway. YMMV.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Gibby on January 23, 2014, 12:47:44 AM
Now this is an interesting job advert:

http://careers.games-workshop.com/2014/01/15/customer-experience-interim-2-years-nottingham-uk/

Quote
We are looking for someone to spend the next two years turning over every – and we mean every – stone to find opportunities for how we can improve the customer experience in our stores and recommend the ones that will work. We aren’t talking about incremental improvements; we want to completely re-imagine what it is like for people coming into our stores, engaging with and buying our wonderful miniatures.

Emphasis theirs.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: OSHIROmodels on January 23, 2014, 12:48:58 AM
Aya, but only if it doesn't cost them anything  :?

cheers

James
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: beefcake on January 23, 2014, 02:32:41 AM
They also basically are asking for fanboys to apply. I think they need someone that has little or no attachment to the stores to give a better view of what it will be like for new customers coming in. Someone that is already used to GW stores won't be able to see what is staring them straight in the face.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: joroas on January 23, 2014, 03:23:29 AM
Two years to globe trot on expenses and write a report?  ;D 

Gosh, you could swing the lead for 23 months and cobble something together at the end.  :D
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: beefcake on January 23, 2014, 07:15:03 AM
Yep, at the end of it say "everyone says your stuff costs too much" get the to drop prices and get them back in everyone's good books. I reckon you could fluff about for an extra month on top of the 23  lol
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: FramFramson on January 23, 2014, 07:29:19 AM
Man, that smells of incredible desperation. Not to mention total cluelessness.

I mean, what publically-traded company loses 25% of stock value and then puts an ad in the paper the next day asking "Can someone please come and tell us what we're doing wrong?"   :-X
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: carlos13th on January 23, 2014, 08:18:46 AM
Prices to high
entry costs to high
Places to play are shrinking
GW treats customers and retailers with utter distain
Poor unbalanced rules that encourage power gaming
Gw has no longterm plan they are entirely focused on short term game
Cutting can only help so much you need to grow not slice indiscriminately

Cheque please.

Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: carlos13th on January 23, 2014, 08:56:03 AM
Tbh when people talk about pricing being too high they often mean the cost to field a decent army to actually play the game is to high. Some models are far more over costed than others. Some are cheaper than competitors and some are far more expensive but in almost every instance 40k ends up the more expensive game to play.

Getting rid of codex's would be a nice start. You should have army lists in the rulebook in my opinion. You shouldn't be in situation where you have the rules the models and still cant play.

The amount of models needed for a game is to high also.

There are lots of compounding factors that cause the game to be so expensive. Increasing the number of models in a box would certainly be a step in the right direction.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: joroas on January 23, 2014, 09:52:42 AM
...and the push to do those massive tank games that no historical gamer would dream of doing in 28mm......
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: beefcake on January 23, 2014, 10:05:54 AM
When they first brought out that basilisk tank I though it was ridiculous, even back when GW was all I knew. The angle on a gun the big? Wtf. And now the flyers that zoom around the table. I prefer these games as infantry type games, small speeders and bikes yep, but anything more than that should be held back for Epic, oh what, can't do that now
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: carlos13th on January 23, 2014, 10:14:01 AM
I just don't see a place for anything bigger than a tank in 28mm. Certainly not flyers.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Ray Rivers on January 23, 2014, 11:46:51 AM
As for the GW background being immature I agree 110%. (see previous posts.) I also will add its a background from an era that has disappeared off the face of the earth. 

any student of modern history will tell you the 80's was under a very different world view and had a very different outlook to what we have today. If the world blowing up in a thermonuclear fireball was a horse race when I was 13 I would of been hard put not to put some swag on it running first. You had the utter nihilism of punk rock (everything is fucked anyway so lets smash it up and be done with it.) and I might add for many a nice black and white world view of us and them because the lines were so clear cut be it socially or politically. The 40K background is a child of those times. Other kids were OGRE, TW2000, cyberpunk and tomorrow the world. Grimdark was the order of the day.

Modern Sci fi backgrounds tend to to be very different and reflect more current concerns.

In fact going a step further the 40k background is tied to what was popular with the youth back then. Its full of Heavy metal punk and goth stuff. (with the orcs being a nod to hooligans with titles like 'ere we go.') with lashings of what was considered naughty back then like demons (keep in mind D&D's makers TSR was in court in the US defending itself against accusations it caused people to commit suicide and jack chick comics warned you hell awaited anyone foolish enough to play a magic user. It was a different world.)

Its all dated and silly now ...

^ THIS.

Our perception of TODAY and the impact of technology is changing the way we view tomorrow.

While the WH40K universe was a wonderful place a decade or so ago, as each day passes it becomes more and more counter-intuitive and illogical.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: joroas on January 23, 2014, 11:50:42 AM
... and does anyone think the Empire are the good guys anymore, surely the Tau have the moral high ground nowadays....
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: knoxville on January 23, 2014, 12:05:12 PM
The advert sounds like a great job opportunity and sums up 50% of my current job in international fashion retail consultancy. Imho anyone saying the advert sounds like desperation or a price drop would drive customers back into stores has clearly absolutely no clue how retail works. I've worked with companies of which products 90% of the people I know say they're way too expensive, but they even increased their prices, improved the customer experience a lot and increased their revenue to a previously unimaginable amount.

Success in niche retail is only about quality and customer experience, it's as little about prices as salaries are the only motivating factor of employees. It's important to a certain degree, but just one part of bigger puzzle. GW is no Walmart or Aldi, they're not selling life essential goods. They're the deli food boutique around the corner which is unfortunately driven by shareholders and happened to have lots of success in the late 90s, early 00s. If I think about the experiences in my local GW, I see lots of possibilities for improvement, compared to other retail stores.

Also, aside from the relieving feeling someone gets from a price rant on the internet, think about the % of how many of the complaining people are still customers. Even if GW would decrease prices, the majority would not come back. So in the end, they would not make any more money.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Vermis on January 23, 2014, 12:15:11 PM
TBH its time that mantle of no good with the girls got binned as its outdated and out of touch.

Fair enough Scurv, but I say 'women-tolerated' rather than 'women-repelling'. ;) For every tale of significant others getting into gaming and especially painting, there are more about 'sneaking minis past the wife'.

I hear you about the original fluff too, but they have been sucking the humour out of it and upping the grimdark. So much so that any OTT moments don't really seem goofy or satirical anymore.

Tbh when people talk about pricing being too high they often mean the cost to field a decent army to actually play the game is to high.

I still think £35 for one box of 10 injection-cast plastic witch elves is a bit much.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Vermis on January 23, 2014, 12:17:11 PM
Imho anyone saying the advert sounds like desperation or a price drop would drive customers back into stores has clearly absolutely no clue how retail works.

Well, that makes it us and GW.

And I still think £35 for one box of 10 injection-cast plastic witch elves is a bit much. ;)
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Modhail on January 23, 2014, 12:21:58 PM
The Empire has never been the good guys...
Just look at the 1st and 2nd ed background. They were clearly portrayed as the extreme of a fascist absolute police state. It was just the only means of survival for the human race available and achievable, the alternative was slavery to aliens and extinction. In Rogue Trader, Space marines were psychopaths and violent criminals that got round up and brainwashed to be controllable, total terror troops.
But somewhere along the line that was retconned, and the reader only got the Imperial propaganda presented in the background writing; Empire are the good guys, Space Marines are noble warrior-heroes, etc.  But at the same time the visual Grimdark got cranked up, I guess to maintain some sort of "nihilism-quota".

Tau, good guys? Join us voluntarily or be subjugated. Either way, end up as an client-race, seen as inferior to the Tau themselves.
Okay, they are nicer about their conquering than, say, the Imperium or Orks, and they don't eat as much people as the Tyranids, but still...  ;)


I have to agree with Scurv on the setting... They filed off all the rough edges, let it get stale and dated, and sprinkled it with artifical flavoring (skull-shaped oddly enough).
In the end, I could almost say that GW's settings have become parodies of themselves. Like Vermis said, the OTT hyperbole is the baseline nowadays.

Knoxville, I think that is the problem, you say that succes in niche retail is only about quality and customer experience. Two values GW performs rather poorly on, these days.
Sure, their plastic figs are good, but compared to market, not nearly as exceptional as they claim. I'm not even going to start on Finecast. And customer experience? Well, a 5 minute rounds on the internet should give you all the data you need on that point...
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: knoxville on January 23, 2014, 12:47:07 PM
Well, that makes it us and GW.

And I still think £35 for one box of 10 injection-cast plastic witch elves is a bit much. ;)

You are right, but the advert shows GW has acknowledged the problem and tries to face it. Let's just not start to speculate about the outcome :)


Knoxville, I think that is the problem, you say that succes in niche retail is only about quality and customer experience. Two values GW performs rather poorly on, these days.
Sure, their plastic figs are good, but compared to market, not nearly as exceptional as they claim. I'm not even going to start on Finecast. And customer experience? Well, a 5 minute rounds on the internet should give you all the data you need on that point...

I agree about the the experience, but they're obviously trying to improve. Don't take it personal, but why do so many people still beat the dead Finecast horse? The are pulling out of it, so they aware of the problems. I wonder if that behaviour is the same for other product discussion on the internet. For every one asking about the new Toyota Prius, are there 2+ pointing out the brake problems of previous ranges and cars catching fire years ago? :)

I disagree about the quality though. I am not saying they're the only one with a high standard, but they certainly lead the group.

Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Vermis on January 23, 2014, 12:50:23 PM
I've worked with companies of which products 90% of the people I know say they're way too expensive, but they even increased their prices, improved the customer experience a lot and increased their revenue to a previously unimaginable amount.

Knoxville, I think that is the problem, you say that succes in niche retail is only about quality and customer experience. Two values GW performs rather poorly on, these days.
Sure, their plastic figs are good, but compared to market, not nearly as exceptional as they claim. I'm not even going to start on Finecast. And customer experience? Well, a 5 minute rounds on the internet should give you all the data you need on that point...

Ayup. Like wot I posted back on page 28:

Lack of innovation - as Mace also mentions - is a problem for GW too. And game quality. And treating customers and distributors like ambulatory expendable wallets and despised enemies, respectively. And so on. But number one at the top of the list has got to be the perceived value of the minis and their ever-creeping price tags.

I'm no Theo Paphitis like yourself, but I didn't just fall off the turnip truck and I'm not blind. I know gamers got burned by GW on more than price, but...

Quote
Also, aside from the relieving feeling someone gets from a price rant on the internet, think about the % of how many of the complaining people are still customers.

Can't think about the %. I don't know it. Do you know it? But I know that most price rants I see (with caveats about just where I'm looking and whether they're representative or not) involve a lot of people who then rave about what fun they have with the modern proliferation of other, better, cheaper wargames; and/or say they'd buy GW again, or wouldn't have drastically cut their GW spend, if the price per mini or army or book or game entry wasn't so freakin' ridiculous.

And according to what spurred this recent round of GW rhubarb, the % is going down.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Vermis on January 23, 2014, 01:02:08 PM
You are right, but the advert shows GW has acknowledged the problem and tries to face it. Let's just not start to speculate about the outcome

I can speculate about a survey into store buying experience when their problem is people not going to their stores. ;)

Quote
The are pulling out of it, so they aware of the problems.

And before that, after they pulled the first bubbly, broken failures out of the mould, they tried to (pardon my french) bullshit the customers for quite a while about how fine and high-quality it was. Not to mention upping the price ( ;) ) on what was supposed to be a cost-cutting measure.

Another thing is the fluff has totally eclipsed the game that it is about. I think this was also one of the reasons things just keep getting bigger. The fluff is all about huge amounts of things blowing each other up in planet shaking battles that grind on for years blah blah blah. Hard to tie that to 30 figs and a hover jeep on the table.

Getting back to how to fix things I would suggest the micro games shotgun. Put out 4 small self contained games (with room for expansion) each year and the ones that are a hit put out supps for.

Says to me: 'Epic'.

Although Epic's probably safer as OOP and 'open source'.

Quote
Its just the fact you cant get it that stops everyone else saying actually its a bit shit compared to the current stuff.

 o_o Are you including rulesets in that remark?
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Modhail on January 23, 2014, 01:17:44 PM
As Vermis said.
And to add, at least why I am still miffed about Finecast: Yup, they are pulling out of it, but without as much as an "Oops, sorry" or other acknowledgement to the customers for the poor grade product they had to endure. Plus, what are we getting as a replacement? This. (http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440271a&prodId=prod2160140a) 18 Pound, mono-pose, no extra parts, plastics... Another downgrade in options for once again a higher price.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Cubs on January 23, 2014, 02:22:38 PM
As someone who worked in retail for a decade and ended up running a shop of my own, I can state that price is a big factor, especially when there are cheaper alternatives easily available. GW is not a niche any more, there are now some viable alternatives and their arrogance in assuming they had people hooked for life has bitten them in the arse. Bigger companies than they have fallen victim to this sort of complacency in thinking they don't have to continually innovate. 

Anyone who thinks GW make the best miniatures in the market have swallowed their propaganda nicely and clearly don't spend a lot of time checking out the superb works of art (created in metal and suitable resin) by smaller companies. Price is not the sum total of their mistakes, just one of the big ones. The problem is, when a customer breaks the habit because they just can't afford it (part of it is simply not having enough money to keep the hobby going and part of it is feeling like an idiot when the rest of the world is laughing at your gullibility), then they are less likely to get hooked again.

Having said that, if GW only lowered their prices and did nothing else they would get a lot more business from the fringe collectors or even those dedicated GW'ers who want lots more toyz for their money. Would it offset the losses in profit per item? Well, that's where you have to be good at your sums beforehand.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: pixelgeek on January 23, 2014, 03:12:01 PM
Tbh when people talk about pricing being too high they often mean the cost to field a decent army to actually play the game is to high. Some models are far more over costed than others. Some are cheaper than competitors and some are far more expensive but in almost every instance 40k ends up the more expensive game to play.

I actually ran the numbers a while back when I was shocked at the price of a new Space Marine release

http://zac.calgarygamers.net/tabletop/alternative/what-can-you-get-for-a-box-of-space-marines

Core troops for armies can be had for a decent price. Everything else is priced based on the rarity in a force so the prices are all over the place.

That contributes to their games being so expensive. It isn't the two or three boxes of core troops its the $70 or 80 for a Special troop choice or $25 for an HQ model.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: pixelgeek on January 23, 2014, 03:18:50 PM
Anyone who thinks GW make the best miniatures in the market have swallowed their propaganda nicely and clearly don't spend a lot of time checking out the superb works of art (created in metal and suitable resin) by smaller companies.

On the whole I think GW makes some very nice figures. Their plastics are especially good but their single figures are really lacking. It says something that probably my favourite GW single mini is an ancient sculpt of Kharn.

What brings the level of quality down is that they primarily produce figures for plastic production and use 3D sculpting and that brings with it a set of constraints.

They also produce figures that come with multiple possible poses and multiple weapon kits which again causes limits in their ability to sculpt.

Given that though, I think some of their figures are great. Their Wood Elf range, with the exception of some of the single figures, are great. I'd play a Wood Elf army in a second if it wasn't going to require a mortage payment to do so.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Cubs on January 23, 2014, 03:32:28 PM
Oh, they're good, I won't argue with that. But the best? No way.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Timbor on January 23, 2014, 03:46:42 PM
Their quality is really top notch in most cases if you are looking at crisp detail and sculpting quality.  My big issue with many of the new releases hinges on style, and OTT details.  The style I can understand probably is more to appeal to their target audience, but the sheer amount of little bits and bobs and the huge gaudy wagons/monstrosities they have been releasing just end up being an eyesore.  I find more appeal in a well-sculpted and positioned cape or plate of armour than adorning said item with forty little skulls or baubles or medals or whatever.

Not to mention that the painting skill required to give justice to such sculpts just aren't there in most people who prefer gaming to painting, so it just makes a cluttered model look worse with a bad paintjob.  IMO a simple figure with a simple paintjob looks way better than a really busy but well sculpted miniature with the same simple skill level applied.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: knoxville on January 23, 2014, 05:19:50 PM
Cubs, just out of curiosity, who's the best in your POV? A lot of people keep saying they're not the best, but no one gives examples. As I said, I don't think they are the no. 1, but I cannot really think of a comparable company. The one I can think of as closest are probably Renedra and Tamiya.

Timbor: Too much details is an argument I never heard before, but I certainly get your point :D I think the best way to produce good paintjobs on GW models is to use the comic painting style they're promoting. In the same way the Foundry style works for more simple models, it brings the best of the model into focus.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Cubs on January 23, 2014, 05:48:53 PM
Cubs, just out of curiosity, who's the best in your POV?

You ever type anything and then later think, "Hmmm, that was a bit strong, perhaps I shouldn't have put it like that,"?

My options are -

1. Apologise for putting it so clumsily and accept I was being a bit of an eejit,

2. Claim to have been possessed by the spirit of the late Oliver Reed,

3. Blame the Catholic Church in some fashion.

Frankly I reckon the Pope hacked my computer and typed that in my name.

Let's try this - I no longer regard them as the best quality (although ten years ago I might have done so) because too many of their models look like overdressed action figures rolled in over-busy iconography for my taste ... BUT, I must learn to accept that others may like this and that this is their right.

Personally, I absolutely love Redbox Games stuff and find them nearly faultless. Tre Manor is a superb sculptor. Anything by the Perry twins oozes quality, ditto Paul Hicks and Steve Saleh. They manage to combine crisp detail with realism and great understated poses.

If you want the fantasy and sci-fi stuff, then Hasslefree, Otherworld Miniatures and pretty much anything they paint and display on WaMP I would rate above the current lines of GW. That isn't to say they don't have the odd outstanding piece that I can appreciate.

PS. This confuses me, because most of what Forgeworld produces (they still running?) is very fine indeed, but that same quality doesn't seem to drip through to their usual lines.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Modhail on January 23, 2014, 07:46:32 PM
Could this be because the Forgeworld design team still sculpts their figures by hand, where GW's plastics are all made on a computer? Computer sculpted minis often lack the small imperfections and traces of the maker's hand that gives a handsculpted figure soul and presence. Computer sculpted mini's are just too clean and perfect to have a sense of "life" to them.

I've noticed something similar with other manufacturer's lines that mix traditional and computer sculpted mini's in their ranges, like Privateer Press.

Then again the Finecast stuff, and before that the last generations of metals were also sculpted by hand. But those were doused in "Grimdark" (a.k.a. skullz and bog rolls) to match the plastics, Forgeworld stuff tends to be a bit more understated. (for GW that is!)
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Gibby on January 23, 2014, 08:07:42 PM
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440161a&prodId=prod2340100a

Sorry to be the one spamming links of late, but is this a new approach where they realise that bundles will be more attractive to customers if they save them money? Unthinkable! Credit where it's due, though; this box set saves you over £50 by the looks of it and it's not even Limited Edition!
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: pixelgeek on January 23, 2014, 08:36:27 PM
Could this be because the Forgeworld design team still sculpts their figures by hand, where GW's plastics are all made on a computer?

That might be part of it. They also don't spend a lot of time creating "heroic" figures. Even the Primarchs they are producing are much more realistic looking than most GW sculpts.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: pixelgeek on January 23, 2014, 08:37:47 PM
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440161a&prodId=prod2340100a

Sorry to be the one spamming links of late, but is this a new approach where they realise that bundles will be more attractive to customers if they save them money? Unthinkable! Credit where it's due, though; this box set saves you over £50 by the looks of it and it's not even Limited Edition!

That is actually a bit of an oddity for recent GW collections. Maybe they finally heard all the criticism of their previous efforts that gave you minimal savings?

Mind you the One Click Collection

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440161a&prodId=prod2350008a

is $387.50 Cnd and it has eight big models and a book  :o
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Argonor on January 23, 2014, 09:22:17 PM
Also, aside from the relieving feeling someone gets from a price rant on the internet, think about the % of how many of the complaining people are still customers. Even if GW would decrease prices, the majority would not come back. So in the end, they would not make any more money.

I have to totally disagree with you; that statement is a contradiction to both microeconomics theory, and the statement of both myself and others here, that we would still be collecting if the prices hadn't gone through the roof..

And I do have a university degree in economics AND managed a retail store for five years, before anyone asks.  :)
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: fitterpete on January 24, 2014, 01:41:23 AM
Foundry did it and it seemed to work for them :D
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: FramFramson on January 24, 2014, 07:08:49 AM
That's actually a good example. GW should look to what Foundry, at least as a start.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Argonor on January 24, 2014, 08:47:34 AM

and I am glad you have because I have a burning question on price and lowering it.

from deep in the memory vault something is telling me if you have a premium product and drop the price you can damage the brands perceived value and make things worse. "They used to make quality goods now they churn out cheap shit." sort of thing.
 
Is that just bad data in the brain or is there some validity to it.   

There is, but it really depends on consumer perception of the product, and as far as I remember it only applies in a competitive environment, and not monopoly situation - and I perceive GW as holding a kind of monopoly status (you cannot buy eldar, space marines, and other stuff from someone else, like you can with old west or pulp minis, for instance).

And I simply refuse the notion, that the great majority of gamers buys GW stuff for the bling value. If you compare to ladies accessories, you never hear someone complain about the price tag of their new chanel purse, or the likes. Luxury items are mainly bought for their show-off effect, only secondarily for their utility value - as opposed to miniatures that are mainly purchased for their in-game effect.

The supply/demand relationship in a monopoly situation gives a higher equilibrium price than the one in a competitive environment, but lower prices should still raise sales, while higher prices reduce it.

I firmly believe that GW has simply overshot the equilibrium price so  much that it's hurting sales, it's a simple as that.

Does anyone in here seriously believe that FEWER people would buy GW products if they could be had at reasonable prices??
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Dr. Zombie on January 24, 2014, 09:02:00 AM
If prices were lower I would buy loads of GW kits. The Flagellant box imediately springs to mind it really is a great set that can be used for soo many things. But I simply cannot convince myself to spend the amount of money that GW is asking for it.

I remember in the good old days when a GW box set with 20 models cost around £10 back they I would buy box sets just for bits. I would not dream of that now.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: knoxville on January 24, 2014, 11:09:41 AM
@Cubs: Don't worry. It's the internet, how can someone take anything serious here, we're a bunch of model-soldier collecting nerds :D But thank you for your reply. If I understood you correctly, in your view quality = style. That's a bit hard to argue about :) I was more referring to actual casting quality.

@Argonor: You're right of course, I should have been more specific. Can we apply formulas and theories because of statements of some people on the internet? It's hard to find a truly objective crowd when talking about hobby-related stuff. Let's take the recent comments about Wargames Foundry. Would you think a global retail chain with around 2000 employees should take the same actions as a small company still relying on manual-casting, "because it worked for them"? I just find most peoples view too stuck in the 80s/90s. Back then, the companies were certainly comparable, but 20-30 years later? GW today is a multitude of connected problems and solutions. Just taking one action will not help, but the majority of the internet seems to forget that. I don't doubt that you or other LAFers would buy again, but would the amount be enough to justify the price decrease? Would the increased sales cover the decreased margin in long-term?

Also, everything that Scurv said about tattoed girls in their shops!  ;D
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: joroas on January 24, 2014, 11:29:36 AM
I do not believe that most of us would go back even with a price decrease.  WH has evolved and moved on since most of us bought anything from GW, hence the surge in retroness on LAF.  There are masses of other games that we now play instead. I find it hard to see us being drawn back.

We forgave Foundry because they make the figures we want for our current fix and, as their range is so big, it covers a lot of stuff unavailable anywhere else and largely sculpted by our favourite guys.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Cubs on January 24, 2014, 12:09:42 PM
I might buy some of the GW things if they fit in with my historicals. In fact I have a fair bit of Bretonnian stuff for my Norman Crusade army (which never seems to get painted). But these all seem to be the older lines - partly because they are cheaper to buy second hand and partly because I far prefer their older styles.

The reason I don't buy their paints and brushes any more is a lot to do with the price. They're good quality, but I can buy paints and brushes I think are the same or better quality five minute's walk from their store, for less money. Why wouldn't I?
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Argonor on January 24, 2014, 12:30:58 PM
Just taking one action will not help, but the majority of the internet seems to forget that. I don't doubt that you or other LAFers would buy again, but would the amount be enough to justify the price decrease? Would the increased sales cover the decreased margin in long-term?

That all depends, but current situation with diminishing sales is not a viable long-term solution if you ask me. And as has been pointed out, the entry-cost for playing either of their games is probably also holding potential customers (or their parents) back, and when you look at how GW fared earlier, does indicate that aiming at a better relationship between perceived value and price also is the better way to succeed.

I am not applying curves to the statements on this forum, it's the other way around: I am arguing that we have been pushed well beyond the price we are willing to pay, and saying that it can probably be used as an example of the validity of economics theory.

I have been arguing for years that this would happen on a larger scale at some point; GW seems to only understand (or take into account) the business side of the equation, namely the profit maximization, whereas they seem to not grasp (or simply choose to ignore) consumer behaviour theories (utility maximization, and the way it influences the relationship between price and the amount purchased), which is half of the supply-demand situation.

It may be because they rely too heavily on their brand - maybe because of the situation before the internet, where their product was literally the only commercial wargaming product easily accessed by the great masses, I can't say for sure, but their - in my opinion - arrogant market behaviour now seems to be catching up...
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: OSHIROmodels on January 24, 2014, 01:20:57 PM
I'd buy stuff if the prices went down, but only down by the right amount  ;)

cheers

James
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Cubs on January 24, 2014, 02:14:16 PM
I will say this in their favour, they've never quibbled (with me anyway) over replacements or refunds.

Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Dr. The Viking on January 24, 2014, 02:15:10 PM
I'd buy stuff if the prices went down, but only down by the right amount  ;)

cheers

James

I'd fill my garage with plague bearers and nurgle flies if they dropped the lid on the loo!
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Timbor on January 24, 2014, 03:42:16 PM
I would think that hiring young women would indeed help, but it would take a while to be able to retain them as staff, I would think.  I am not sure that many young women would want to continue working at a place where they have to put up with awkward leering from sweaty teenagers all day.  ;D
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Mason on January 24, 2014, 03:51:52 PM
I'd buy stuff if the prices went down, but only down by the right amount  ;)

Me too, but there is very little that I would be tempted by, mainly due to the way they have changed the 'look' of everything.

Saying that, some of their scenery is very good.
No idea where I would store any more scenery, though.....



I'd fill my garage with plague bearers and nurgle flies if they dropped the lid on the loo!

 lol lol
You are just too fussy!



Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: pixelgeek on January 24, 2014, 04:27:45 PM
I was out for a game last night and the local Warhammer crowd were all talking about the new Tyranid swarm collection. Half of them thought it was a good deal and the other half thought it was still too expensive.

Interesting to see that the two "deals" GW has offered for this army have already started gamers talking though
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: westwaller on January 24, 2014, 07:04:49 PM
I would buy GW stuff if it was cheaper- There would be more stuff I would take a punt on. There are miniatures I see and would like to paint (new sternguard) but for 30.00 for five models...no way. I know you get loads of 'extras' but you often get a few extras with Perry stuff for example, but they don't charge the proverbial earth for it.

I would say the general casting quality has gone down since the 90s too. It was very rare to get bent or miscast parts on miniatures then- The few metal Sternguard I have, have a lot more small (but correctable 'faults')

If they want to save their arses GW should get out those old molds and cast up all the stuff that demands and sells for ridiculous prices on ebay. Old orcs, Dwarves, and Brettonians/Empire would be a good start. Maybe sell them under the 'Citadel' banner to differentiate them from the new stuff. It could be that simple... either that or put them in the 'collectors' bit on the website.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Mason on January 24, 2014, 07:33:07 PM
If they want to save their arses GW should get out those old molds and cast up all the stuff that demands and sells for ridiculous prices on ebay. Old orcs, Dwarves, and Brettonians/Empire would be a good start. Maybe sell them under the 'Citadel' banner to differentiate them from the new stuff. It could be that simple... either that or put them in the 'collectors' bit on the website.

That would be good start, but they would have to price them competitively or ebay would still be the choice every time.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: pixelgeek on January 24, 2014, 08:48:11 PM
If they want to save their arses GW should get out those old molds and cast up all the stuff that demands and sells for ridiculous prices on ebay. Old orcs, Dwarves, and Brettonians/Empire would be a good start. Maybe sell them under the 'Citadel' banner to differentiate them from the new stuff. It could be that simple... either that or put them in the 'collectors' bit on the website.

New supply would rapidly reduce the price. The lack of miniatures and even a small demand for them would create inflated prices. They'd fill that market quite quickly
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Dr Mathias on January 24, 2014, 09:03:58 PM
New supply would rapidly reduce the price. The lack of miniatures and even a small demand for them would create inflated prices. They'd fill that market quite quickly

There are people that would buy straight from GW, even at a higher price point than eBay, to avoid potential recasts.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Commander Vyper on January 24, 2014, 09:58:18 PM
I remember seeing Jes Godwins sketches for the 40k version of Skaven. Rather Necromunda styley  8)

Question is, when they eventually go under will the original moulds be scrapped  ??? They must have literally thousand of old moulds.

cheers

James

Sadly, they junked shitloads of them in the citadel hq base move years ago. Andy at Heresy told me they were sliced with stanley knives and skipped!   :o

I saw a terminator spin mould on ebay once a couple of years ago. I think they still have masters of everything so moulds could be recreated, but so many have gone sadly. :(
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Commander Vyper on January 24, 2014, 10:01:43 PM
Sorry double post. Anyway I think that the bottom line is that they don't get the importance or value of nostalgia sales. If they did they would clean up. Rogue Trader interest runs higher than ever as is the old hammer wfb

sadly for many reasons GW refuse to reflect and just run forward to the next windmill. ;)

Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: FramFramson on January 24, 2014, 10:49:31 PM
sadly for many reasons GW refuse to reflect and just run forward to the next windmill. ;)

(http://i.imgur.com/ixCsi.gif)
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Argonor on January 24, 2014, 11:44:23 PM
Sorry double post. Anyway I think that the bottom line is that they don't get the importance or value of nostalgia sales.

As I stated (in other words), they haven't got the faintest idea what makes customers tick, but seem to think that it's all a matter of 'if we make it, they'll buy it'.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: pixelgeek on January 25, 2014, 12:19:05 AM
As I stated (in other words), they haven't got the faintest idea what makes customers tick, but seem to think that it's all a matter of 'if we make it, they'll buy it'.

I think that people here may over-estimate the nostalgia market.  ;)
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: carlos13th on January 25, 2014, 02:16:52 AM
(http://i.imgur.com/ixCsi.gif)

If that doesn't sum it up perfectly I don't know what does.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: FramFramson on January 25, 2014, 02:24:24 AM
its more than price with GW.

I think I figured it out. GW is that annoying kid who had a swimming pool in his backyard when you were a kid and its high summer. You want to swim in the pool, its the only pool and you are going to have to pay over the market rate in bagged lollies to do it. To get to the good bit you are going to have to eat a little proverbial shit.

Then one summer a bunch of other kids got pools just as good to go swimming in.

Never swim in that little bastards pool again. In fact I would even swim in a shitter pool as long as its not too shitty just so the little swine will never be king of summer again.

and for the people who live in -44 change pool to sauna I guess and it will work.  ;)

The are the eric cartman of minis companies. You just know they need a kick in the nuts every now and then to keep em real. They have acted like complete dickheads for so long that if I was to do business with them now it would be on my terms or never.

I will buy nostalgia figs at low prices only. They are not a premium product in my view. I think lots of the nostalgia thing is because some people can put an ace paintjob on a complete turd and make it shine.

what I love about the older figs is the flattened proportions and individual flair. That same style with modern sculpting would get my money faster than re released old stuff.

Yeah, modern sculpts are a very high quality and all the new technology is really great, but a lot of older ones really shine for personality.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Mason on January 25, 2014, 03:09:01 AM
its more than price with GW.

.......

The are the eric cartman of minis companies. You just know they need a kick in the nuts every now and then to keep em real. They have acted like complete dickheads for so long that if I was to do business with them now it would be on my terms or never.


This ^^^^ sums it very well.
I can be a right stubborn git ifI think I have been taken the piss out of.
Even to the point of cutting my own nose off.
GW did that to me a long time ago and I aint going back unless they change their ways big time.
 :D



I will buy nostalgia figs at low prices only. They are not a premium product in my view. I think lots of the nostalgia thing is because some people can put an ace paintjob on a complete turd and make it shine.


Here we may just disagree (not that that is a bad thing, each to their own...).

I will pay whatever I think is fair, and that may mean more than normal if it is the only way that I can get something that I really value.

The old '80's D&D Minotaur was the last time that I did that, mind you...

I do still love some of their old stuff, but I am slowly starting to gather my favourite bits through here so no real complaints at all.
 :D

Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Cubs on January 25, 2014, 10:33:39 AM
I think that people here may over-estimate the nostalgia market.  ;)

It isn't nearly as good as it used to be.

Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Modhail on January 25, 2014, 12:46:05 PM
The are the eric cartman of minis companies. You just know they need a kick in the nuts every now and then to keep em real. They have acted like complete dickheads for so long that if I was to do business with them now it would be on my terms or never.
Yup, the dickhead factor is a major thing. I've had several instances where I wanted a particular GW figure and was close to accepting the high price, until I remembered where the money would be going to...

I will buy nostalgia figs at low prices only. They are not a premium product in my view. I think lots of the nostalgia thing is because some people can put an ace paintjob on a complete turd and make it shine.
For me, the low prices are part of the nostalgia...  ::)
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Too Bo Coo on January 25, 2014, 12:54:34 PM
I just buy second hand, nothing really from their shop aside from the occasional supply.   

One of my favorite minis was the Marauder Giant.  That's what I think of when I think of the glories of GW/Citadel/Marauder.  It was a great casting, beautiful sculpt, the price was fair.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Too Bo Coo on January 25, 2014, 02:41:54 PM
WD is now weekly and they are debuting next month a new monthly mag, 'Warhammer Visions'...
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: joroas on January 25, 2014, 04:58:05 PM
Quote
'Warhammer Visions'...

Does it come with some mind-altering chemical?  lol
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Belgian on January 25, 2014, 05:11:21 PM
Just found this GW announcement on their website note the essential part   lol:

White Dwarf, now weekly.

Available exclusively through Games Workshop stores, independent retailers, and games-workshop.com. White Dwarf is an exciting and essential weekly hobby magazine that contains something for every hobbyist, every week - guaranteed!

·    36 pages of everything that is exciting and new in the hobby this week.
·    Detailed information on all the week’s other new releases, and the latest hobby news.
·    New features, new modelling and painting techniques, new rules, new columnists and much more.
·    All this every week for the same price as a single Citadel pot of paint!

Issue No.1 launches Saturday 1st Feb and subsequent issues follow every Saturday

Warhammer: Visions, now monthly.

Experience a visual feast of super high-quality Citadel Miniatures.  In more than 230 pages you’ll find a completely new take on the worlds of Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000 in a stunning new extended pictorial style.

·    Contains all your favourite sections from Army of the Month and Blanchitsu, to Kit Bash and Paint Splatter.
·    Over 70 more pages than the previous monthly White Dwarf with more Golden Demon and Armies on Parade photos and more fantastic photographs of Citadel miniatures than ever before.

And it’s wrapped up in a fabulous new format that you will want to keep and collect! Issue No.1 out Saturday 1st February
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: The Dozing Dragon on January 25, 2014, 05:21:50 PM
I notice it didn't mention the price............
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: carlos13th on January 25, 2014, 05:24:09 PM
I am not really sure what the difference is. Which one is going to have the least adverts? Also are either of them actually going to be worth buying?
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Quendil on January 25, 2014, 06:03:04 PM
I thought the weekly one was suppose to around £2 which is obviously a bargain for 36 pages of adverts  o_o
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: FramFramson on January 25, 2014, 07:54:06 PM
I think that people here may over-estimate the nostalgia market.  ;)
It isn't nearly as good as it used to be.

I just want to say that yes, I caught this, and yes, you're a horrible man.  lol
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Vermis on January 25, 2014, 08:20:43 PM
I dunno about nostaglia. To pick up on the army I've still bought stuff for, Skaven: I got into Warhammer in 6th ed and the less said about those monkey-dog plastics of the time, the better. Most of the metals weren't great either and even the hallowed metals by Jes Goodwin, years earlier, while a bit of an improvement, didn't set my imagination on fire.
The current stuff by Seb Perbett, though - fantastic. A bit of a cartoony style, and AFAIK all digitally sculpted and designed, and I can see why people might not like it, but I think it suits the Skaven OTT, mad-scientist style pretty well. The only low points are the stormvermin (a bit meh compared to clanrats), night runners (still not updated from monkey-dogs), and the current, general sale rat ogres. (One of the first, fumbled attempts at CAD IIRC. Why they haven't been replaced by the starter set versions, I dunno.)

But with all that gushing...

I just buy second hand, nothing really from their shop aside from the occasional supply.

Yeah, that. Even the £20 for 20 basic troops that I wouldn't be too opposed to. It saves money for the stuff from the ebay pack-splitters and resellers who take a bit of a leaf out of GW's book.

And in response to Joroas from a few pages back: they can keep their game and it's rules; I just want their minis, at a decent price. :P
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Cubs on January 25, 2014, 09:07:25 PM
I just want to say that yes, I caught this, and yes, you're a horrible man.  lol

(http://en.olympiahall.com/vmedia/390/musicstory/5685-sammy-davis-jr-400-400.jpg)
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Lawful Evil on January 29, 2014, 05:26:19 AM
Didn't see this mentioned anywhere else, an even though it's just a rumour, it's a welcome one from my point of view:

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2014/01/breaking-40k-starter-boxed-set-details.html

A new 40k starter box, said to feature Orks and BA.

All copied straight from the link:
*****
Launch Window - @September
Rules Summary: Updated Mini-rulebook contains FAQs, minor tweaks and clarifications, and much of Stronghold Assault rolled into a new shiny package.
Miniatures included: @70
Armies:
 Blood Angels (plastic quick assembly)
- Assault Marine Squad
- Tactical Marine Squad
- Death Company Squad
- Captain (kitted out for assault)
- Chaplain
- Sanguinary Priest (limited edition, similar to the Dark Vengeance mini was)

Orks (plastic quick assembly)
- 'Ardboys (full mob)
- Nobs (small squad)
- Warboss
- Big Mek
- Ork themed fortification

This was described as simply an updated Warhammer 40,000 Starter Set and specifically "NOT 7th Edition."

You will note that September falls right smack in the middle of the rumored release slots for Orks (a couple of months before), and Blood Angels (a couple of months after). 

On first glance the  "not 7th Edition" makes no sense until you go back and read this.  This could certainly be the start of GW rolling the "organic living ruleset" for 40K that does away with edition numbers and the sales dips they cause. Instead we would get updated core products such as rulebooks and starter sets from time to time to "bring them up to speed" with all the most current rules additions that have been rolled out in the intervening years.
*****
I'd buy two, I have Orks and Space Marines, I can use BA for them no problem.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Cubs on January 29, 2014, 02:23:53 PM
Well, well, well.

Let's hope it's more than a rumour and heralds a sea-change in attitude.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Dr.Falkenhayn on January 29, 2014, 02:36:43 PM
Hooray even more Orks and Marines  ::)
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: pixelgeek on January 29, 2014, 03:42:42 PM
Well, well, well.

Let's hope it's more than a rumour and heralds a sea-change in attitude.

Problem is that in terms of a tabletop game they "jumped the shark" some time ago. They had a large-scale combat game that they could have expanded and made into a core game (Epic) but instead they have pushed the game into a rather odd situation where you have games with tables packed with utterly inappropriate numbers of large models. It sells them a lot of Baneblade kits but I don't know that it makes for a fun game.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Too Bo Coo on January 29, 2014, 03:50:17 PM
I can certainly understand that since 40k is more skirmish than grand scale game that the firearms have proportionally shorter ranges for closer combat.  But when I see a table of air power, heavy and super heavy tanks and egad a titan, I have to shake my head in confusion.  Yes, it looks great, but the rationalizations become too much for me.   At least in 15mm FoW the ranges make more sense, if not perfect.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: pixelgeek on January 29, 2014, 06:25:58 PM
But when I see a table of air power, heavy and super heavy tanks and egad a titan, I have to shake my head in confusion. 

In Epic the Basilisk has a minimum range that is wider than a standard 40K table  ;D

When it first came out I played a few Apocalypse games but we did it on an enormous table and we also didn't have anything larger than a Land Raider. Playing a standard 40K game with those large vehicles and air power seems to be asking a bit much of the system.

I have a Baneblade that I was planning to use in an AE-WWII game but it was going to be the focus of the scenario, not a heavy support item  :)
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Dolmot on January 29, 2014, 06:31:06 PM
Hooray even more Orks and Marines  ::)

Well, did you expect cowboys and indians?

Considering it's a 40k box, those picks are just fine. There's always someone in any medium-sized group who can use a few marines and orks if the starting player doesn't. Personally, I'd like to see more IG as they're supposed to form the huge majority of imperial forces (which definitely isn't the case on tabletops). However, as marines have become a self-feeding loop, probably selling more alone than all FB and LotR together and boosting their best-selling video game franchise, the chances of avoiding them in a starter box are slim.

It just makes a lot of sense businesswise so I don't really expect them to make a starter box to please LAFfers.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: matthais-mouse on January 30, 2014, 03:11:21 PM
As a starter set, I would have had Tau and imperial guard, just to confuse everyone  lol

As for the size of the new models and games, i think its awful, nice looking models but very unwieldy on the tabletop. they should have kept epic AND all of the other specialist games. They allowed much more characterization of ones forces.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Dolmot on January 30, 2014, 05:29:58 PM
So...there's a video review of the visual feast of super high-quality Citadel Miniatures in a stunning new extended pictorial style, in a fabulous new format that you will want to keep and collect. (And WD too.)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4cqFbTa5qOI
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Dr Mathias on January 30, 2014, 06:05:54 PM
So...there's a video review of the visual feast of super high-quality Citadel Miniatures in a stunning new extended pictorial style, in a fabulous new format that you will want to keep and collect. (And WD too.)

GW has certainly done a lot of odd things over the years, and most could be explained as having some sort of rationalized (albeit misguided or not popular) business decisions.

I just don't 'get' this new White Dwarf format stuff. Why?
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: matthais-mouse on January 30, 2014, 06:14:39 PM
GW has certainly done a lot of odd things over the years, and most could be explained as having some sort of rationalized (albeit misguided or not popular) business decisions.

I just don't 'get' this new White Dwarf format stuff. Why?

I have to admit as a decision I hate it. I stopped buying white dwarf when it become £5.50 the last format change, I was reluctant enough to buy it £4.50 even, but at £7 for a visions which is just a load of photos and £2.50 for a 35 page magazine of stuff i can read on their website they must be having a laugh. i want ARTICLES ON GAMING MODELLING AND PAINTING not what new over priced models they have out and a bunch of pretty pictures. But than there are people out there who will buy it religiously which means they dont care about the loss of other custom.

This is just my opinion though...
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Dolmot on January 30, 2014, 07:20:51 PM
I just don't 'get' this new White Dwarf format stuff. Why?

The weekly vs. monthly format? The split to WD and Visions? The new content and layout?

WD appears mostly the same as before in content and page count, just spread over every week now. The most obvious ploy would be that it's 50+% more $ now if you maintain your previous rate of buying. Also, the new price is quite literally loose change so it's almost trivial to buy on a whim, just like a coffee or a soda.

However, another great conspiracy theory is that because it's weekly now and you can't subscribe to it, there's an incentive to visit a store often, and hopefully grab a few new releases too before the same money is spent on movies, fast food and playstation. I think the saturday release date conveniently coincides with new, shiny minis.

When it comes to Visions...I honestly don't know what's the deal. Something to subscribe to and browse in your Playboy mansion if you can't be arsed with regular gaming and impulse buying any more? Slightly more subtle visions for getting back into the hobby or starting a new project? Just an easy way to produce more content in a joint-language format, hoping that enough people will buy it in addition to WD? No idea. It looks very odd to me, based on that first peek.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: beefcake on January 30, 2014, 07:28:08 PM
So everyone seems to love marines and buys them (I even collected an army... For about 6 months before selling them off) surely tournaments and regular games must be rather strange with marines fighting marines. People that buy other armies must get people clambering to play them.  lol
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: pixelgeek on January 30, 2014, 08:55:06 PM
However, another great conspiracy theory is that because it's weekly now and you can't subscribe to it, there's an incentive to visit a store often, and hopefully grab a few new releases too before the same money is spent on movies, fast food and playstation. I think the saturday release date conveniently coincides with new, shiny minis.

Not a conspiracy theory at all. They want to push people into stores and this is a pretty good way to do it.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Timbor on January 30, 2014, 09:56:37 PM
I saw this rumour today that GW is melting down the rest of their metal stock:

http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?41148-GW-Begins-the-quot-Great-Smelt-quot

Quote
Word today is that truckloads containing literally metric tons of metal miniatures have pulled away from GW HQ, headed for a date with a furnace. The entire stock is to be smelted down and sold off on the metals markets.

Look for any remaining stocks of metal models to disappear shortly from the website.

GW's era of metal miniatures is over.

I dunno about you, but I can envision some sort of scene like the one from 'The Italian Job' where thieves chase down the truck full of precious metal in souped up cars...  keep an eye out for that truck! lol
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Dr Mathias on January 30, 2014, 10:24:51 PM
I dunno about you, but I can envision some sort of scene like the one from 'The Italian Job' where thieves chase down the truck full of precious metal in souped up cars...  keep an eye out for that truck! lol

What system should I use to game this scenario? Pulp Alley, Infinity, Combat Zone? :)
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Dolmot on January 30, 2014, 10:25:39 PM
It will be easier when they retire finecast. Just open the curtains on a sunny day.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: carlos13th on January 30, 2014, 11:21:47 PM
I dunno about you, but I can envision some sort of scene like the one from 'The Italian Job' where thieves chase down the truck full of precious metal in souped up cars...  keep an eye out for that truck! lol

You do the driving and Ill ride shotgun.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: FramFramson on January 31, 2014, 05:09:11 AM
That seems really stupid. The fan-friendly thing to do would be a fire-sale, but of course not, no.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: joroas on January 31, 2014, 08:08:48 AM
They burn all of their remaindered Black Library novels too.......
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: zemjw on January 31, 2014, 10:07:04 AM
Well, my subscription has just ended. I thought it had a month to go, but got another letter telling me it was done. I had seriously considered resubscribing, as they were still offering the subs at old WD rates (presumably this will change soon). However, having watched that video, I am incredibly glad I didn't bother :D

200+ pages of badly composed and poorly laid out photographs with virtually no text. I can't see this enticing new folk into "The Hobby" either, as they don't seem to explain what anything is at any point.

Regarding the metal rumour, looks like I have a couple of things to try and buy over the weekend.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: smokezombie on January 31, 2014, 12:53:13 PM
They burn all of their remaindered Black Library novels too.......


Stunned if this is true. What is the rationale behind that and when has book burning ever been good?!

I'm not doubting you. Just....shocked.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: joroas on January 31, 2014, 12:55:21 PM
OH! This is true, I rang and asked if I could have them for my school library, they said no and then burnt them.........
What a waste.  :'(
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Dolmot on January 31, 2014, 01:04:03 PM
Taking the 'sale' out of a fire sale. :?
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Too Bo Coo on January 31, 2014, 01:15:32 PM
All reasons why I avoid GW to this day....
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Hammers on January 31, 2014, 02:02:43 PM
GW has certainly done a lot of odd things over the years, and most could be explained as having some sort of rationalized (albeit misguided or not popular) business decisions.

I just don't 'get' this new White Dwarf format stuff. Why?

I just can't fathom how this can sell to any market group except perhaps illiterates with oodles of money segment.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: pixelgeek on January 31, 2014, 04:17:20 PM
They burn all of their remaindered Black Library novels too.......

I suspect that someone misspoke. They probably pulped them as is typical in the book market.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Argonor on January 31, 2014, 06:16:29 PM
What system should I use to game this scenario? Pulp Alley, Infinity, Combat Zone? :)

Pulp Alley. Vehicle rules are coming  lol
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Cubs on January 31, 2014, 07:58:30 PM
I suspect that someone misspoke. They probably pulped them as is typical in the book market.

Pulped fiction?
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: pixelgeek on January 31, 2014, 08:27:33 PM
Pulped fiction?

You're starting to get a reputation you know  ;)
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: joroas on January 31, 2014, 08:52:38 PM
Nope, they was burnt......
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Cubs on January 31, 2014, 09:18:59 PM
You're starting to get a reputation you know  ;)

Story of my life.

I don't like the destruction of books and I don't like waste. The thought of something someone will want being willfully destroyed just angers me. What a pointless waste.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Dr Mathias on January 31, 2014, 09:23:59 PM
Nope, they was burnt......

Really? I thought you were joking. Really, burning?

Even in ass-backwards Kansas people donate books for pulping into mulch or something.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Vermis on January 31, 2014, 09:33:48 PM
Is it wrong that I'm not in the least bit surprised? :)
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Centaur_Seducer on January 31, 2014, 11:15:37 PM
Hmm, cutting the suit tighter and getting rid of more difficult assets. Gee, if I wasn't such an idiot I'd say that they're artificially strenghtening the share value and are readying themselves for a sale...
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Andym on January 31, 2014, 11:37:25 PM
I think you probably find that the reason for NOT having a fire sale is they are going to sell the same products but in a different format. Metal for plastic, paper for PDF. The old classic metal minis for example were turned into finecast.  They probably don't want you getting something cheap that they can sell to you for an inflated price later!
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Dolmot on February 01, 2014, 12:29:16 AM
So a bloke at the club (not me, honest!) got copies of both new mags and I...er...happened to catch a glimpse...

WD: Pretty similar to the previous version, only thinner. New releases, basic painting guides, stats for one special character, a couple of columns or other blurb. No battle report this time. I'd say it's largely what you'd expect as a GW gamer/collector. (If you aren't either, why are you browsing bloody WD in the first place?)

Visions: Still a bit baffling. Boatloads of pictures, really. Little else. The first 50 pages were studio tyranids from a zillion angles. The last 50 were the same. First shown alone, then in totally staged action shots fighting orks, (ultra)marines, chaos and so on. Inbetween there was actually surprisingly plenty of GD and custom army showcase stuff. Forge World too, which was sort of interesting as well. You don't see those in every box cover, and they're doing better weathering etc. on them. Finally, there was some obligatory LotR and a few conversion articles, if you dare to call those four lines of text per page in three languages an article.

The smaller page size of Visions is a mixed bag. On one hand, you'd like to have larger photos in a mag which is effectively only about photos. Some larger scenes are rotated, spread over two pages, or even fold out to four. None of those are particularly convenient for viewing. On the other hand, a mini on a flat brown slottabase doesn't really look good blown up to full or even half page size. Especially studio's standard army paintjobs aren't really interesting or detailed enough for that.

If you don't like bog standard studio tyranids (or whatever is the army of the month) and can't get excited about the "battle scenes", that's about 100 pages wasted right there. Then again, there's still over 100 remaining and some of it is quite neat unless you're categorically against all things GW. (Why are you browsing a mag called "Warhammer Visions" then?) Because there's no text to speak about, no real effort is required going through the whole thing. On positive note, there are hardly any ads as in "buy this box for 40e". Surely there are 236 pages of pics of Citadel minis without price tags but shouldn't come as a surprise.

To be honest, I would have preferred keeping WD thick and monthly with all those studio promo pics of latest armies there, and a thin mag of GD/FW stuff at 3e. I just can't see myself shelling out 9e for too many photos of box cover minis with a few unseen gems buried inbetween. Nevertheless, take a look yourself and draw your own conclusions.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: OSHIROmodels on February 01, 2014, 12:32:03 AM
I'll have a shufty tomorrow if they're in WHSmiths. Not going in the GW though  lol

cheers

James
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: beefcake on February 01, 2014, 01:41:42 AM
New dwarfs are in now. Didn't realise that the trollslayers are still in metal.

Anyone think the new dragon slayer looks like Obelix with a Mohawk?  lol
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Sardoo on February 01, 2014, 03:28:52 PM
I have to admit as a decision I hate it. I stopped buying white dwarf when it become £5.50 the last format change, I was reluctant enough to buy it £4.50 even, but at £7 for a visions which is just a load of photos and £2.50 for a 35 page magazine of stuff i can read on their website they must be having a laugh. i want ARTICLES ON GAMING MODELLING AND PAINTING not what new over priced models they have out and a bunch of pretty pictures. But than there are people out there who will buy it religiously which means they dont care about the loss of other custom.

This is just my opinion though...

Totally agree. Just wrote to GW asking them to cancel my subscription to White Dwarf. This change wasn't asked for nor is it wanted/needed in my opinion. They're just trying to soak around £124 a year out of readers for the slimmed down, got-to go-to the-workshop-every-Saturday-to-get-it version of WD. The Visions magazine is worthless as it's just a collection of pictures that you could only replicate if you had a lottery win to buy all the figures.

I've not always agreed with the "Evil Empire" view of GW that's around these days as I've had a lot of fun with their products over the years but, sadly, they've completely lost me as a customer over this  one.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: knoxville on February 01, 2014, 03:59:12 PM
My copies arrived in the mail today. WD is an interesting mix, though I cannot image that they'll keep printing this for long, I am sure it's just the predecessor of a purely digital format. Visions is actually quite good, finally there are some high res detail shots of Eavy Metal painting. I don't care about any text, so it's more or less what I hoped for.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: OSHIROmodels on February 01, 2014, 05:28:55 PM
It was wrapped in plastic so I didn't bother  :?

Does this effect anyone else (I would imagine that it does) that if you can't flip through then you don't buy?

cheers

James
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Cubs on February 01, 2014, 05:34:11 PM
I rarely buy a mag I can't peruse first. How do I know if I want it if I can't see what's in it?
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: joroas on February 01, 2014, 05:40:43 PM
Quote
It was wrapped in plastic so I didn't bother  Confused

Does this effect anyone else (I would imagine that it does) that if you can't flip through then you don't buy?

Was it on the top shelf with the other magazines about plastic photo-shopped models?  ;D
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: carlos13th on February 01, 2014, 06:03:08 PM
A magazine with painting guides, modelling guides, terrain building, scenarios rules and the like would be intresting to me. Even as someone who has given up buying anything from GW besides the odd pot of paint that kind of magazine content would be intresting me. I dont however want to pay for the privilege of being advertised too.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Dr Mathias on February 01, 2014, 07:18:16 PM
Was it on the top shelf with the other magazines about plastic photo-shopped models?  ;D

 lol
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Centaur_Seducer on February 02, 2014, 04:53:40 AM
Was it on the top shelf with the other magazines about plastic photo-shopped models?  ;D
lol
Oh dear, Bibbly!
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: beefcake on February 02, 2014, 06:21:36 AM
So with only a few dwarfs shown so far do you think next week will show a few more being released for preorder? Giving them something to fill up the weekly mag with?
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Johnno on February 03, 2014, 04:01:56 AM
I bought both. I wanted to see what the hype was about.
I feel they should have kept WD as it was.

Visions is simply a picture book. Maybe 3 lines of text per page.
The Golden Demon/Blanchitsu/Army of the Month spreads etc were good. 100 pages of Tyranids not so much. Probably even if you like Tyranids.
I guess I'd get it again when it relates to an army that I have an interest in. Otherwise no.

The new much thinner WD was simply that. Thinner, not much substance. New dwarves, stats and painting for the dwarves. Not worth the time or money to collect every week. Thankfully my subscription expired last November.

Yes it was wrapped in plastic but most WD's have been in the last little while. My local store has a copy you can peruse though.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Mason on February 03, 2014, 01:21:40 PM
My local store has a copy you can peruse though.

Don't worry.
Whoever is responsible for that lapse will probably be terminated before you return.
 :D


Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Constable Bertrand on February 03, 2014, 01:29:42 PM
I cannot see them finding enough material to fill that many publications. It will have more user content, player armies etc, which will be nice to see, but there are only so many to take pictures of. And they have Fb and their blog for that too!!

Cheers
Matt

Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: OSHIROmodels on February 04, 2014, 12:13:33 AM
That there is a tabletop game is usually news to them.

That's quite interesting  :)

cheers

James
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: pixelgeek on February 04, 2014, 12:22:23 AM
That's quite interesting  :)

I actually find it difficult to believe given how much GW advertises their miniatures in books and games.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Dr Mathias on February 04, 2014, 02:58:39 AM
Same people that think of Final Fantasy and video games when they hear RPG.

No lie, one guy even had a Horus Heresy art book and had never seen a figure, or claimed not to have.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Dr.Falkenhayn on February 04, 2014, 03:12:51 AM
on a sidenote "Games Workshop" and "Warhammer" got mentioned in the Brian Keene Novel "Castaways"
gave me a good Laugh when i read that Passage  lol lol

Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Vermis on February 04, 2014, 06:31:32 PM
Urm ... yes ...

Yeah, but do you print books or do you print army rosters and airport boarding passes? ;)

I print stuff at home meself. I got an Epson PX650 printer a few years ago so I could print off relatively decent reference photos I found online, on proper photo paper an' all. It hasn't stopped me buying decent books on the given subject or clipping glossy magazines for the 'morgue' (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morgue_file). Maybe it will, the way print seems to be going, but I'm still sceptical.

It isn't a legitimate comparison. Printer manufacturers make their money from ink and not printers. Hence the ridiculous price and the attempts to add DRM to printer cartridges. 3D printer manufacturers make their money from selling you a printer.

So who sells you the 3D 'ink'?
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Cubs on February 04, 2014, 06:50:53 PM
Yeah, but do you print books or do you print army rosters and airport boarding passes? ;)

Mostly just photos of Kate Winslet and Holly Willoughby.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: OSHIROmodels on February 04, 2014, 07:53:18 PM
Anyway, back to GW...  ::)
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Cubs on February 04, 2014, 08:07:35 PM
I really do wonder whether GW's policies are part of a well planned strategic overhaul or just random ideas from Fanboy think-tanks. I applaud them for making changes, which really have been needed for a while, but I for one cannot really see how the magazine changes are going to benefit them.

But what do I know, the only business I run consists of me (and my accountant I suppose ... the missus).
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: pixelgeek on February 04, 2014, 08:38:21 PM
How this will effect GW?

Lowers the cost of entry to producing miniatures. 3D sculpting has exploded in just a few years and a lot of that has to do with 3D printing. There are combo units coming out that are scanners and printers in one system. Drop in your Marine sprue, scan and then print.

I think the biggest threat to GW is that this allows smaller competitors to create figures and produce them in numbers that they wouldn't have been able to before. It also opens them up to sculptors who may be geographically distant but able to deliver figures digitally. Look at the number of companies producing everything from 6mm to 54mm figures in a range of genres.

At the moment, outside of terrain and tokens I don't see myself printing anything gaming related but the growth of companies working via 3D and 3D printing keeps getting bigger each year.

Take Secret Weapon miniatures for example. They designed and are producing 3D sculpted terrain boards similar to the Realm of Battle boards that GW did. A small company with a digital sculptor sends 3D files to a manufacturer who builds moulds and then creates hard plastic terrain tiles.

Suddenly GW has competition in a very expensive market from a small company that wouldn't have been able to do this five years ago.

GW is a big player in a very small market and when your smaller competitors can suddenly scale production to meet yours you have issues.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Cubs on February 04, 2014, 10:36:08 PM
It might be we see them going the Warlord Games route and buying up the small companies to reduce competition in niche areas.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Dr.Falkenhayn on February 04, 2014, 10:38:40 PM
niche areas.

It's called "specialist Games"  ;) lol and we all know what happens to that Stuff  >:D
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: pixelgeek on February 04, 2014, 10:39:24 PM
It might be we see them going the Warlord Games route and buying up the small companies to reduce competition in niche areas.

Can't see it happening. No other companies make products that fit into the company. I think they'd be more likely to expand to expand their moves into video games and other content
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: pixelgeek on February 04, 2014, 10:40:51 PM
It's called "specialist Games"  ;) lol and we all know what happens to that Stuff  >:D

And Warhammer Historical and their Dark Industries(?) RPG publisher.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Cubs on February 04, 2014, 11:04:44 PM

Suddenly GW has competition in a very expensive market from a small company that wouldn't have been able to do this five years ago.

GW is a big player in a very small market and when your smaller competitors can suddenly scale production to meet yours you have issues.

Can't see it happening. No other companies make products that fit into the company. I think they'd be more likely to expand to expand their moves into video games and other content

I'm confused.

(http://phillbarron.files.wordpress.com/2012/01/confused.jpg)
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: pixelgeek on February 04, 2014, 11:08:03 PM
I'm confused.

Care to explain why?
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Cubs on February 04, 2014, 11:15:58 PM
You say suddenly GW has competition from a small company.

Then you say you can't see any small companies .... aaah, I see what you're saying.

I think the premise is that you assume they would buy up a company because they're interested in selling their product? Oui?

I'm not accusing anyone of anything, all I'll say is that a company can also buy up a smaller company in order to stop them producing their product.

Sometimes it's just cheaper and easier than trying to compete.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: pixelgeek on February 04, 2014, 11:19:49 PM
I think the premise is that you assume they would buy up a company because they're interested in selling their product? Oui?

I can't see them buying a small company or a small competitor because they only sell products for their own IP and none of the technology that people are using is unique. People are using the same tech as them its just that it has a larger impact for a smaller company than it does for GW.

Historical manufacturer A can buy historical manufacturer B to expand their range of figures but GW is the sole source of 40K and WFB miniatures. Its not like you play 40K and buy your official Guard figures from Hasslefree. There are a lot of companies like Avatars of War and Gamezone that make figures that can be used in their games but I can't see what GW would gain from acquiring those firms.

And given how many internal divisions they have axed I can't see that their plans currently involve expanding their offerings or their wage bill
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Cubs on February 04, 2014, 11:20:46 PM
I don't think you're getting it. Doesn't matter, not important.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: pixelgeek on February 04, 2014, 11:28:46 PM
I don't think you're getting it. Doesn't matter, not important.

I don't agree with the proposition that unfriendly takeovers of companies happen in the hobby.

I'm not accusing anyone of anything, all I'll say is that a company can also buy up a smaller company in order to stop them producing their product.

Can you name any companies in this industry that have done this? I'm not aware of any.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Dr.Falkenhayn on February 04, 2014, 11:43:26 PM
Can you name any companies in this industry that have done this? I'm not aware of any.

errm,wrong Forum Zack you should raise this question on Frothers  lol
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: OSHIROmodels on February 05, 2014, 12:18:26 AM
while i haven't seen the WD/Visions Mag myself,here's a review,doesn't look that much visionary to me  :?

http://taleofpainters.blogspot.de/2014/02/review-white-dwarf-weekly-and-warhammer.html (http://taleofpainters.blogspot.de/2014/02/review-white-dwarf-weekly-and-warhammer.html)



I'm getting that impression as well  :?

They had a spate a few years ago when a Tale of Four Gamers reamerged and they also had a small Necromunda campaign going on with the 'studio' team, Doc butchers clinic and a fair amount of other none standard gaming, painting, converting going on.

That was worth buying, this does not seem to be  :(

cheers

James
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Dolmot on February 05, 2014, 12:32:37 AM
I found the reviews by Jake Thornton (you know, the global editor of WD in '95-'97 and heavily involved in all things WH) interesting. He brings up some very valid points and facts such as repeated content.

http://quirkworthy.com/2014/02/01/white-dwarf-reborn-part-3/
http://quirkworthy.com/2014/02/02/white-dwarf-reborn-part-4/
http://quirkworthy.com/2014/02/04/white-dwarf-reborn-part-5/
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: pixelgeek on February 05, 2014, 12:40:00 AM
I'm still confused at to who the market is for Visions. The weekly WD makes sense (at least sense in terms of what I think they want to do with it) but the appeal of Visions is beyond me.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: grant on February 05, 2014, 03:46:04 AM
I found the reviews by Jake Thornton (you know, the global editor of WD in '95-'97 and heavily involved in all things WH) interesting. He brings up some very valid points and facts such as repeated content.

http://quirkworthy.com/2014/02/01/white-dwarf-reborn-part-3/
http://quirkworthy.com/2014/02/02/white-dwarf-reborn-part-4/
http://quirkworthy.com/2014/02/04/white-dwarf-reborn-part-5/


Quote from: Quirkworthy
Thoughts

For me, Warhammer Visions is useless.
sums it up. It's like the Archie and Jughead of Warhammer magazines, without the insightful commentary that Archie and the gang come up with.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: OSHIROmodels on February 05, 2014, 07:34:30 AM
I found the reviews by Jake Thornton (you know, the global editor of WD in '95-'97 and heavily involved in all things WH) interesting. He brings up some very valid points and facts such as repeated content.

http://quirkworthy.com/2014/02/01/white-dwarf-reborn-part-3/
http://quirkworthy.com/2014/02/02/white-dwarf-reborn-part-4/
http://quirkworthy.com/2014/02/04/white-dwarf-reborn-part-5/


Yes indeed, I read a couple of the comments and had no idea they were selling articles online for extra purchase  :-X

cheers

James
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Vermis on February 05, 2014, 02:14:16 PM
Yes indeed, I read a couple of the comments and had no idea they were selling articles online for extra purchase  :-X

Have you heard about the Great 6th Ed Tyranid Conspiracy? The latest Tyranid codex was released in January. Apparently genestealers and lictors have been downgraded and aren't much use anymore. (YMMV) But guess what's got new rules in the digital Tyranid 'dataslate' released a week or two later?
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: OSHIROmodels on February 05, 2014, 02:18:44 PM
Have you heard about the Great 6th Ed Tyranid Conspiracy? The latest Tyranid codex was released in January. Apparently genestealers and lictors have been downgraded and aren't much use anymore. (YMMV) But guess what's got new rules in the digital Tyranid 'dataslate' released a week or two later?

Nope, but it doesn't surprise me  ::)

cheers

James
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Kitsune on February 10, 2014, 10:18:39 AM
Have you heard about the Great 6th Ed Tyranid Conspiracy? The latest Tyranid codex was released in January. Apparently genestealers and lictors have been downgraded and aren't much use anymore. (YMMV) But guess what's got new rules in the digital Tyranid 'dataslate' released a week or two later?

Dataslates have been happening for a while now and aren't really tyranid specific. I think its being read as more of a conspiracy than it is. Charging extra £££ for things which could easily have been added to the £30 army books isn't on though!
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: joroas on February 10, 2014, 10:41:35 AM
Well, the only main stream army I had held on to was my Dwarfs (TM) but the appearance of a new Army Book means that it will be destined for eBay on Thursday.  They'll get no more money from me......  :'(
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: YPU on February 10, 2014, 12:29:33 PM
You know I thought I was done harping on GW's design choices. Then that new dwarf bomber comes along. I'm sorry, does that belong on in fantasy or did it miss the boat on the summer of fliers for 40K? Didn't these things use to look like WW1 aircraft?
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: OSHIROmodels on February 10, 2014, 01:34:46 PM
I actually don't mind that  8)

Not for GW dwarves obvisouly but more of a kin to Spelljammer and things of that ilk.

I won't get one though  lol

cheers

James
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Too Bo Coo on February 10, 2014, 02:02:42 PM
I'm sorry, but they are smoking premium crack in Nottingham...  $45.00 for a gyrocopter and $50 for 10 plastic dwarves?!!??!  Do they want people running away from their products!!?!  o_o ??? :o

I agree, the copter is bullocks.  ;D
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Kitsune on February 10, 2014, 02:42:01 PM
I'm sorry, but they are smoking premium crack in Nottingham...  $45.00 for a gyrocopter and $50 for 10 plastic dwarves?!!??!  Do they want people running away from their products!!?!  o_o ??? :o

I agree, the copter is bullocks.  ;D

Saw a photo on another forum where someone had bought 6 boxes on release day......Its only insane if people actually buy it!
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Too Bo Coo on February 10, 2014, 02:56:17 PM
Saw a photo on another forum where someone had bought 6 boxes on release day......Its only insane if people actually buy it!

Ah, the '1-click' rip off...er em 'deal' they advertise.  It's all just too 'high fantasy' for me....
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: YPU on February 10, 2014, 04:46:55 PM
Not for GW dwarves obvisouly but more of a kin to Spelljammer and things of that ilk.

With all the neffs going around here I'm surprised we haven't seen a spelljammer counterpart yet.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: grant on February 10, 2014, 06:16:36 PM
I think if you got a good start, with one of those dumpy bottomed gyrothings, you could totally jump a shark.

Wow.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: pixelgeek on February 10, 2014, 07:20:46 PM
$45.00 for a gyrocopter and $50 for 10 plastic dwarves?!!??! 

$55 and $60 respectively in Canada.

If you want you can get a flight of 6 bombers for $330.

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440004a&prodId=prod2380279a

No wonder so many 40K players are starting to play Bolt Action
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: beefcake on February 10, 2014, 07:43:43 PM
The copters look more elvish to me (although rather squat and with runes) I think it's all the curvy lines etc on it.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Kitsune on February 11, 2014, 10:19:35 AM
$55 and $60 respectively in Canada.

If you want you can get a flight of 6 bombers for $330.

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440004a&prodId=prod2380279a

No wonder so many 40K players are starting to play Bolt Action

40K? The gyrocopter is for fantasy.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Vermis on February 11, 2014, 02:54:54 PM
I'd say that doesn't improve the situation. lol
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Too Bo Coo on February 11, 2014, 03:04:18 PM
I'd say that doesn't improve the situation. lol

seriously lol
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: pixelgeek on February 11, 2014, 03:13:57 PM
40K? The gyrocopter is for fantasy.

Prices in general, not a reaction to odd Dwarf sculpts  :)
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: joroas on February 11, 2014, 08:59:11 PM
http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2014/02/40k-unbeatable-list-lvo-winning-army.html

40K?  This story says it all! Was there any point turning up to play him?

Quote
40K - The Unbeatable List - The LVO Winning Army


 Over 200 participants dueled at the Las Vegas Open - This list defeated all comers going 8-0.  Behold the deadliest list in Warhammer 40,000 as of this last weekend!

 First off I would like to congratulate Reece for pulling off the LVO and champion Alex Fennel for pulling off a perfect 8-0 streak with the list.  Look for more detailed coverage of the LVO soon, but just note that Eldar appeared in half of the top 8 armies, with not a Tau to be seen. When you look at this list, remember that it faced other lists just as nasty and loaded for bear.

 And here it is: 1750pts of Eldar (and a smidge of Dark Eldar) lethality and objective controlling machine.

 It's fast, masters the psychic phase, can project incredible firepower at range (most of which ignores cover), boasts lots of scoring units, and an almost unkillable deathstar.

(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-OqrELtOsXxQ/Uvm7PWt1SuI/AAAAAAAAcic/lDgMPaZJbmc/s1600/LVO-winner-1750.jpg)
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: grant on February 11, 2014, 09:21:46 PM
Is there anything finer than the BoLS net list? No; no, there's not. Now, little Timmy just needs to buy that exact army and be able to make all his friends cry! Attaboy, Timmy!

Seriously though, tournaments, net listing, BoLS, and the DickMove were all responsible for the drain of fun in GW based games.

Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Cubs on February 11, 2014, 09:54:38 PM
It reminds me of Gareth from 'The Office' boasting that he's memorised every 'Top Trumps' card in every pack, so he can win every time.

Would anyone over the (mental) age of 12 really get enjoyment from that sort of thing?

I don't mind points-based stuff, and I guess I'm not even opposed to tournaments as such, it's just the idea that people out there might just pop up and ruin your weekend ... it's why assault should not be a crime if it's against people who are really, really annoying.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: pixelgeek on February 11, 2014, 10:27:04 PM
Seriously though, tournaments, net listing, BoLS, and the DickMove were all responsible for the drain of fun in GW based games.

They can drain the fun from any game. FoW, Dystopian Wars, Epic Armageddon...
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Mason on February 11, 2014, 10:38:25 PM
It wasnt just the price rises that drove me away from 40k, the 'tournament mentality' in the players at my local club made me give up 40k just as much.

It does depend on the individual, though.
Some years ago I went to the Blood Bowl grand tournament at the suggestion of a friend who really wanted to go.
I had my reservations at the time but thought 'what the hell, give it a go'.
Of my six opponents, only two of them seemed to have the 'tournament mentality' the other four were a good laugh and quite relaxed about things.
The two 'serious' players were really irritating though, and one of them received two 'yellow cards' during the weekend for being a complete twat.....says it all really.

Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Gibby on February 11, 2014, 10:44:29 PM
Is there anything finer than the BoLS net list? No; no, there's not. Now, little Timmy just needs to buy that exact army and be able to make all his friends cry! Attaboy, Timmy!

Seriously though, tournaments, net listing, BoLS, and the DickMove were all responsible for the drain of fun in GW based games.



Any and all games are ruined by that sort of thing. I never understood why anyone would get any enjoyment out of winning a game that wasn't even close due to the stats and general dickery that exploits loopholes in the rules and such. A small group I was a part of disbanded very quickly when, during a Mordheim game, the one power gamer among us decided to hide his noble Bretonnian Knights in a house and use his Longbowmen who were positioned on an impassible cliff (they started up there so it's ok right?) to shoot my unarmoured Kislevites to death before they could even get half way to the Knights. Very thematic eh? No doubt many a brave Knight would sit and let the peasants take the glory! Needless to say the group disbanded and no Mordheim was played with that guy again.

Another player who I had a 40k game with set the objective up on top of a building with no door - he was the only guy with flyers. Had to talk him out of that one. Every shooting phase was a 10 minute session of him slowly maximising his firepower and basically consulting his spreadsheet army list to do the absolute most damage. Fine for the fact it's a game, but by the end of the battle I felt I'd helped him with tax returns, not recreated an exciting sci fi battle with a memorable narrative or any dramatic moments.

You can see that same mentality creeping into other games as they gain popularity. I'm not going to bother but I'll bet the Bolt Action forum has list discussion and Tournament comp stuff being discussed. The extreme gamification of an actual war really leaves a sour taste in my mouth as well, but I suppose that's another topic.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: pixelgeek on February 11, 2014, 10:47:41 PM
It wasnt just the price rises that drove me away from 40k, the 'tournament mentality' in the players at my local club made me give up 40k just as much.

I gave up playing FoW for the longest time for the same reason. Power gamers really can suck the life out of a game.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: pixelgeek on February 11, 2014, 10:50:00 PM
I'm not going to bother but I'll bet the Bolt Action forum has list discussion and Tournament comp stuff being discussed.

It does. I stopped visiting it for that very reason. People arguing the most gamey, dick-move type of "interpretations" of the rules to try to get a benefit.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Pseudopod on February 11, 2014, 11:25:35 PM
It reminds me of Gareth from 'The Office' boasting that he's memorised every 'Top Trumps' card in every pack, so he can win every time.

Would anyone over the (mental) age of 12 really get enjoyment from that sort of thing?


Haha, reminds me of playing Magic the Gathering (shudders)..

That whole game is predicated on the tournament mentality, they have sports style coverage and onlookers tut when you make sub-optimal decisions.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Vermis on February 12, 2014, 12:06:58 AM
Quote
First off I would like to congratulate Reece for pulling off the LVO and champion Alex Fennel for pulling off a perfect 8-0 streak with the list

"...and Rory Calhoun for parking in disabled spaces, and Kevin Jennington for his long-range urinal splashing, and James Flint for his sterling seal-clubbing work..."

 o_o o_o o_o
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Vermis on February 12, 2014, 12:33:58 AM
You can see that same mentality creeping into other games as they gain popularity.

I'm starting to develop the mentality of avoiding hyped, flashy new games with an official mini range, especially if said range is very specifically tied to the rules. Other warning signs are a thousand kicksrarter promises (and attendant problems), card-deck mechanics, and illustrations/minis designed to seem like the more overblown superhero-comic/anime styles, if not more so; with or without surfboard swords, suitcase handguns, and chainmail bikinis.

I'm not sure the attitude's entirely justified, but after listening to Malifaux twitch players squawking about 'awesome' the misshapen new minis are and how I should dust off my handful of minis because 'they totally kick ass now' (I don't really know why people try to comfort me with that) it's the one I've got.

I think Zombicide contributes to it in a slightly different way. Guy I know went in on the kickstarter, and the group played a few games when he got his hands on it. It is a pretty good game, and I enjoyed it, but a month or two later the guy sold it on. I'm not entirely sure why, but I have a vague feeling he originally pledged because the game had 'kewl zombies' and 'badass characters' rather than being, y'know, any good; then the novelty wore off.

But, yes, on-topic: the same whole listbuilding, min-maxing, killer-kombo-disguised-as-tactics, playing-the-rules-not-the-game attitude that hangs heavy over the Warhammers (more than with other, more balanced games, I feel) puts me right off.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: weismonsters on February 12, 2014, 02:46:44 AM
Here is my all-conquering unbeatable power-gasming list:

HQ : Belgae strongwill with a laspistol and neuro disruptor,

Unbeatable deathstar unit: The Deathstar.

Squad choice: a squad of eldar harlequins all with different weapons cos thats how the miniatures come even tho the army list in the red book says they all have to be the same.

Vehicle choice: A captured Rhino painted in funny colours.

Turn 1 disrupt all their neurons, turn two, witness the firepower of the fully operational deathstar and thats it. Repeat 8 times and claim your prize.

Edit: forgot the key detail - turn 3 finish them off with the laspistol.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: pixelgeek on February 12, 2014, 02:51:27 AM
On a related note, some youngsters are on Vermis' lawn and he would like them to get off it.  ;)

I don't mind card based systems. I think that they can be an interesting way to add some depth to the game without complicating the rules. Dreadball is a recent game in which they work well.

I think that the general issue is games that are just based on point systems. Any time you have this it eventually rewards the cheese monkeys that can work the system.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: carlos13th on February 12, 2014, 03:12:26 AM
At the very least some games attempt to balance their system so min maxing unbeatable lists is less of an option. GW doesn't even pretend to.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: grant on February 12, 2014, 03:30:50 AM
You can see that same mentality creeping into other games as they gain popularity. I'm not going to bother but I'll bet the Bolt Action forum has list discussion and Tournament comp stuff being discussed. The extreme gamification of an actual war really leaves a sour taste in my mouth as well, but I suppose that's another topic.

Of course Bolt Action is along the same path! Ex-GW guys. Including Alessio Cavatore... They started with tournaments right away, and the forum became a whole lotta net listing. Forget about history in a historical game - what matters is that a medic can man the halftrack MG42, and without a loaded unit, that halftrack can't shoot.

Did I mention I was a moderator over there until Bolt Action took over, and I sold all my BA stuff recently? It's true.

Anyway, GW tried desperately to get away from tournaments; BOLS embraced them and the popularity of the Leafblower was, I think, the beginning of the dreaded mindless net list. And you could almost hear a million fun souls dying a little bit, every time a net list was posted ...

Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Vermis on February 12, 2014, 03:33:07 AM
On a related note, some youngsters are on Vermis' lawn and he would like them to get off it.  ;)

TL;DR: I generally prefer substance over style. ;)
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: FramFramson on February 12, 2014, 07:59:32 AM
If tournaments are promoted at all, I can't really fault people for using net lists. That's the way of competition.

So I much prefer games with no tournament scene.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Centaur_Seducer on February 12, 2014, 11:33:22 AM
Two important points:
One: The LVO is considered to be an extreme tournament with every game being a knock-out, so it's not for those that play for a laugh. Thus, the list reflects that specific tourney, and perhaps not the game as a whole (well it does, but that's another discussion).

Two: Since third edition the codices have always been unbalanced, and in some match-ups, very unfair. The community reaction to this was the Composition system. While it differs from country to country, and also it's implication and purpose, it's generally used to balance the weaker codices against the strong ones, and usually ban cheesy lists.

More or less.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: grant on February 13, 2014, 03:53:38 AM
I was just browsing the GW site. The Dwarfs are quite nice, and I was wistfully checking them out. As usual, they look awesome until the price is considered. :(

Oh, and I still think the gyrocopter is a big old flying turd.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: pixelgeek on February 13, 2014, 04:16:15 AM
I was just browsing the GW site. The Dwarfs are quite nice, and I was wistfully checking them out. As usual, they look awesome until the price is considered. :(

Maybe it is the painting but the characters all look a little soft. Not really crisp details at all.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: carlos13th on February 13, 2014, 06:58:29 AM
I really don't like the dwarf's I have seen from the new GW releases. Even without the high prices I probably wouldn't want most of them.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Cubs on February 13, 2014, 10:04:58 AM
I like that the LOTR & Hobbit dwarfs (dwarves?) are actually relatively athletic looking whilst still being stocky, instead of the round tubs with limbs that WH dwarfs (dwarves?) turned into.

The necessity of keeping true to the movie proportions have made the LOTR models much more desirable to me with their realistic sculpting. I accept a little exaggeration most of the time in things like weapons, but when you look at an axe being held in one hand that you know would weigh as much as a steel safe, it's tough to engage with the model.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Too Bo Coo on February 13, 2014, 10:45:38 AM
Agreed, it's just too bad their LoTR stuff is SO expensive!  My Otherworld collection was my big splurge this year....
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: FramFramson on February 13, 2014, 06:19:02 PM
 lol ;D lol
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Predatorpt on February 19, 2014, 03:52:36 AM
Hope you guys don't mind me posting this here, but it's GW related... Someone on a portuguese forum found this little gem on Ebay 

Quote
Custom Warhammer 40k Figure. Games Workshop Skull Warrior

(http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/MTIwMFgxNjAw/z/uj0AAOxyOypSYAQ~/$(KGrHqZ,!lQFJ!gYpJZbBSY!Q+I6l!~~60_12.JPG)

 And at least he didn't said it was "pro-painted":

Quote
Description
    
Unusual Warhammer model
This has a skull for a head, a gun for an arm, a space marine jetpack and a spear in its other arm. I believe the green bit is some kind of hardened plastercine which can be painted over, but would be hard to remove

Unfortunately, the seller is UK only :D
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: joroas on February 19, 2014, 07:58:33 AM
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Custom-Warhammer-40k-Figure-Games-Workshop-Skull-Warrior-/121196250556?pt=UK_Toys_Wargames_RL&hash=item1c37dc05bc

Only £7.95 with free postage.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Dr. Zombie on February 19, 2014, 08:26:38 AM
There could be an entire thread dedicated to Ebay monstrosities.
like this beauty.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Warhammer-40k-Imperial-Guard-Leman-Russ-Battle-Tank-/221369915459?pt=UK_Toys_Wargames_RL&hash=item338aacd843
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: beefcake on February 19, 2014, 11:05:27 AM
Looks like someone was taking the piss put of GW by trying to sell something that looked like a turd... Only someone bought it.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: carlos13th on February 19, 2014, 11:26:06 AM
I think someone got angry about OOP models costing a bomb.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/warhammer-Flashing-OOP-1980s-exclusive-only-millions-of-fragments-ever-made-/281265237234?pt=UK_Toys_Wargames_RL&hash=item417cb6ecf2
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: joroas on February 19, 2014, 11:43:33 AM
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/warhammer-snotling-OOP-1980s-exclusive-only-hundreds-of-thousands-ever-made-/281268507433?pt=UK_Toys_Wargames_RL&hash=item417ce8d329

a snip ta £2,000,000!!!!
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: YPU on February 19, 2014, 11:56:13 AM
Looks like a little 4 legged beast of nurgle got to that tank and left its mark of chaos upon it.

lol lol lol lol
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Vermis on February 19, 2014, 01:58:19 PM
Hope you guys don't mind me posting this here, but it's GW related... Someone on a portuguese forum found this little gem on Ebay

 lol I admire his optimism.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: grant on February 19, 2014, 02:28:28 PM
There could be an entire thread dedicated to Ebay monstrosities.

There was one going on Hateseer; pages and pages of sheer eBay stupidity. Also exposed many ripoff artists, quite a fair few recasters too.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Too Bo Coo on February 20, 2014, 07:59:42 PM
Wow, is thought the 500 that I got for my 20 S1 Zombicide minis were expensive!  Yikes!
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Too Bo Coo on February 20, 2014, 08:01:49 PM
There could be an entire thread dedicated to Ebay monstrosities.
like this beauty.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Warhammer-40k-Imperial-Guard-Leman-Russ-Battle-Tank-/221369915459?pt=UK_Toys_Wargames_RL&hash=item338aacd843

It's like their dog took a turd on this thing.....
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: grant on February 21, 2014, 02:41:20 AM
I heard they give you a choice: flame or knife.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Modhail on February 21, 2014, 12:43:15 PM
So the main issue is that at "third party" would profit? So self-tattooing would be okay, as there is no money going to a third party?  ;D

Scurv, that's a hard one, as few pics are clearly labeled as being "red era". Are you looking for fantasy or 40k reference material, you could try googling on the contempory edition of the rules? (2nd for 40K and, what is it. 4th or 5th for fantasy?)
 I think your best bet, though, would be to go through a stack of old White Dwarfs.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: grant on February 21, 2014, 06:26:51 PM
It was the era of lots of red on the figs in very overblown highlights and green edged bases.

2nd ed 40k stuff.

The best era!

Do you have all the Codex books and such? They go for dirt cheap, and are great. Also, White Dwarf can be had for next to nothing for those years. I had a full set of 40k books and WD from RT all the way to 5th, all gone now ... It was something to behold! But I enjoyed the 2nd ed stuff the most - the game was the most fun, the most affordable, and had none of that corporate GW bullshit that exists today. Even by third the company and the game was changing.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Vermis on February 22, 2014, 01:02:14 AM
Behold the new £30 plastic model.

(https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/t1/s403x403/1966884_522010117913383_1073328126_n.jpg)
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: YPU on February 22, 2014, 01:04:50 AM
On the other scale of things, imperial knights (semi-titans) are now a thing in 40K scale. (I fret to call it 28mm)
I never got that deep into Knight fluff, any grognards who want to tell me what is wrong with this rendition of them?
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Dr Mathias on February 22, 2014, 01:42:24 AM
Behold the new £30 plastic model.


I find the use of a grandiose word like 'Behold'- paired with that picture- hilarious  lol
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: beefcake on February 22, 2014, 01:50:14 AM
Knights on a table that is 4' by 4'  lol they're not even trying any more.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: weismonsters on February 22, 2014, 03:17:15 AM
i never did know what the story was with nights. some kind of hereditary thing, a bit like navigators i think.

I made one of my increasingly rare visits to their site today. The new thing looks like quite a good rendition of one in giant scale. If one were using a car park for battlefield, it might make some sense in a game.

I see they did their trademark 5 for the price of 5 job lot "deal".


Talking of GW web site, I was reading the other day about the GW official forum. Apparently they had one for a while some years ago but they pulled the plug on it. From the accounts of all the thread deleting and such that went on, my opinion of GW has reached new deapths...

Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: weismonsters on February 22, 2014, 03:29:21 AM
Behold the new £30 plastic model.

(https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/t1/s403x403/1966884_522010117913383_1073328126_n.jpg)

Looks like some kind of underwater helicopter.

Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: pixelgeek on February 22, 2014, 03:48:39 AM

... any grognards who want to tell me what is wrong with this rendition of them?

They are about half the height they should be based on the old Epic Knights.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Vermis on February 22, 2014, 04:10:43 AM
But then they'd probably tower over the 40k scale warhound titans. :D (was there an official measurement of the height of 'real life' knights?)

Gotta say, in a rare moment of GW positivity: I liked the idea of knights since I got into Epic (admittedly only with the last edition, but I've managed to scrape a few off ebay), cemented by Dan Abnett's Mechanicum book, and I think GW have done them justice with this new model. I only balk at the £85 price tag, so maybe I'll check on ebay or with a deep discounter when I'm feeling particularly rich.

I still think it's better value than the dwarf gyrocopter, though, and that's what that is, Weismonsters. ;) Mentioned a couple of pages back.

DrMathias: I did have second thoughts, but it was really the only choice for such an overhyped speck of styrene.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: pixelgeek on February 22, 2014, 04:49:05 AM
I like the Paladin model. If I can get it for a decent discount I might grab one and paint it up as a display model for my work table.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Dr Mathias on February 22, 2014, 08:31:11 AM
DrMathias: I did have second thoughts, but it was really the only choice for such an overhyped speck of styrene.

Agreed :)
I just wish you'd put an exclamation point after 'Behold', for effect. Or an animated gif with a curtain being pulled aside :)

Still smiling about that miniscule gyro copter.

Here's me feeling conflicted because I like the Imperial Knight a lot. How many gyro copters equal a knight, monetarily?
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Dr. Zombie on February 22, 2014, 10:11:17 AM
I really love the new knights. Always have. And this verson really does justice to the old Epic ones. If I can find one at a decent price I might get one just for display. As I don't really play 40k.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Mason on February 22, 2014, 10:16:11 AM
That 'Knight' is not a bad model, as it goes, but it does not say Imperial Knight to me as I remember the original models, which looked far clunkier and less like a mini-Titan.

They had much more character and reflected the fluff of Noble Houses maintaining their family traditions through the ages in a way that this model does not.

They felt much more like Bretonnnians-in-space before and I liked that.

Those and the Eldar versions had a certain charm....hmmmm.......does that mean an Eldar versions may be on the cards.

All that aside, that price is still fecking diabolical!
 :o

Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: beefcake on February 22, 2014, 10:17:17 AM
Agreed :)
I just wish you'd put an exclamation point after 'Behold', for effect. Or an animated gif with a curtain being pulled aside :)

Still smiling about that miniscule gyro copter.

Here's me feeling conflicted because I like the Imperial Knight a lot. How many gyro copters equal a knight, monetarily?

When you think about it that way the knight is a steal, two and a half gyro copters or one knight? The knight is nice but too big for me (I know it's meant to be big but I just don't have the space for it) unless I kicked the wedding photos off the book shelf and spent the next year sleeping on the couch, which incidentally would let me see the knight even more  lol
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Argonor on February 22, 2014, 04:16:28 PM
I thought 'knights' were the exodite Eldar???  ???
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: pixelgeek on February 22, 2014, 04:20:00 PM
I thought 'knights' were the exodite Eldar???  ???

IIRC they were released as part of the same expansion that had the Exodites and Eldar Knights.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Argonor on February 22, 2014, 04:23:56 PM
IIRC they were released as part of the same expansion that had the Exodites and Eldar Knights.

I remember the Eldar Knights from Epic, I can't recall having ever heard of Imperial ones, before... well, I'm not really into that universe, anymore...
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: pixelgeek on February 23, 2014, 03:41:50 AM
the thing that gets me about the knight price is I know you could get a decent robot thingie by kitbashing a toy for about $25 in total.

I will be happy to see what your $25 Transformer based "Knight" will look like. Have at it.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: beefcake on February 23, 2014, 08:23:30 AM
"1 step and it's over the other side of the battle field" size please  lol
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Andym on February 23, 2014, 09:21:05 AM
That 'Knight' is not a bad model, as it goes, but it does not say Imperial Knight to me as I remember the original models, which looked far clunkier and less like a mini-Titan.

They had much more character and reflected the fluff of Noble Houses maintaining their family traditions through the ages in a way that this model does not.

They felt much more like Bretonnnians-in-space before and I liked that.

Those and the Eldar versions had a certain charm....hmmmm.......does that mean an Eldar versions may be on the cards.

All that aside, that price is still fecking diabolical!
 :o



In not so sure the price is THAT bad for this model! It's an 8" giant robot. It's looks fairly solid too. I see the Dreamforge Leviathan was $120 and its about the same size!

The other thing though........did you notice the COMPLETE LACK of skulls!!!!!!! I count 2 on the pics I seen!!! Do you think GW are maybe finally listening? Could this be a new start? On the other hand that dwarf Gyrocopter is just Shite!!!

I think the Knights a cracking model.......and it's the first GW model I've thought about buying in a loooooonnnng while!!
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Too Bo Coo on February 23, 2014, 11:20:25 AM
The model is nice, but the price tag a la GW is outrageous. 
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: grant on February 23, 2014, 04:24:57 PM

(http://www.highsnobiety.com/news/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/Star-Wars-AT-AT-Dog-Costume.jpg)

Whippet. Whippet real good.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: FramFramson on February 24, 2014, 12:33:24 AM
That's a terrible Whippet costume. No tracks and I only count two guns.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: grant on February 24, 2014, 01:24:24 AM
how to break the unbreakable bond between man and beast. Dress it like a twat.  lol

getting back to this knight thing any scale shots of it next to a fig?


Haven't seen any; and in all seriousness, I think the Knight model is actually one of the best things GW has done in a very long time. I think it's not even prices stupidly. Shocking, that.

Now, don't get me wrong, I won't buy one, but I still appreciate that it is teh roxxor. Or whatever it is that the kids are saying today. Word.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: pixelgeek on February 24, 2014, 01:58:34 AM
getting back to this knight thing any scale shots of it next to a fig?

From the GW website

Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: beefcake on February 24, 2014, 06:23:43 AM
It would kind of fit with the privateer press gargantuan miniatures.
As said from others. I like it but too big for my taste.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Kitsune on February 24, 2014, 11:01:03 AM
I really like the new Knight model and as its available for £63 in London via Dark Sphere's shop, the price isn't too horrible. My main problem is that its less than 1/4 of the points in a "normal" 40K 2000 point game and requires an army to go with it! (or more knights, which GW is planning a codex for). If I could take one or two and be done with, then it'd be a sure buy, but as it is? Nope thanks. Especially as I can get two Infinity TAG's for the price of one discounted Knight.

GW release a game with nothing but Knights/Eldar Wraithknights (they already released it!)/Stompas knocking the crap out of each other  and I'd be all over it.

40K heading further into being Epic 28mm has no real interest for me.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: YPU on February 24, 2014, 11:39:44 AM
GW release a game with nothing but Knights/Eldar Wraithknights (they already released it!)/Stompas knocking the crap out of each other  and I'd be all over it.
I could see the fun in writing something like that up!
But thinking about it I would probably just use Ganesha games SAMURAI ROBOTS BATTLE ROYALE for quick games or Mekton Zeta for deeply crunchy games. Actually I'm up for this, I'll provide the rules if you guys get the robots.  lol
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: weismonsters on February 25, 2014, 02:05:27 AM
I agree with others. If i had a wargames table the size of a swimming pool and but for the fact that i am boycotting GW for any number of reasons besides just price/quality issues, I would be keen on this model. It is more elegant than the knockoff titans i have seen and the price is quite in proportion to the size of the thing. They seem to be staying ahead of the game with the big plastic kits.

In terms of titans in games, i found that even in the old epic game it got a bit much. The space marine game had a nice game mechanic for vehicle formations and infantry, but the titans seemed to take away from the game rather than add to it. And when the Imperator titan came out, the game was broken. I had a nice characterful chaos army and i got tabled every single game by the damn thing.

At least im not bitter about it though  :'( :'(

Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: pixelgeek on February 25, 2014, 03:22:40 AM
When we first played the Apocalypse rules we did it on an 8' x 10' table. At the lower limits of the game that wasn't actually a bad table size and with that size a table the odd Gargant or Knight wouldn't be too bad.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: pixelgeek on February 25, 2014, 03:25:02 AM
It would kind of fit with the privateer press gargantuan miniatures.

I suspect that it is a bit bigger than those. The plastic means that they can keep the pose straighter. Compare the old metal Khador jacks and the new plastic ones.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Kitsune on February 25, 2014, 09:52:00 AM
I suspect that it is a bit bigger than those. The plastic means that they can keep the pose straighter. Compare the old metal Khador jacks and the new plastic ones.

Its 6" tall, about the same as a current trygon and nowhere near as big as I thought the model was. Having had no problems with using a Trygon in my games, it'll fit easily on a 6X4 table.

I think PP big models might just pip it, but no owning one thats an eye guess from seeing other peoples.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: beefcake on February 25, 2014, 09:59:09 AM
I thought it said 8" tall? Off to check...
Nope you're right 6", not as good a deal as I thought now  lol
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Kitsune on February 25, 2014, 10:39:25 AM
I thought it said 8" tall? Off to check...
Nope you're right 6", not as good a deal as I thought now  lol

They pulled a stealth change as it said 8" over the weekend. Overcompensating, as ever.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Modhail on February 25, 2014, 11:27:01 AM
But are those 6 inches true inches or GW's heroic scale inches?  lol
But seriously, that makes it chest high to a stompa... rather sad, seing how the old epic knights and stompas compared to each others.

Right now GW is just making the Dreamforge Leviathan look like a better deal.
I mean, the Knight is € 18 per inch... The Leviathan comes out at € 11 to 14 per inch, depending on where you buy it. Plus, it can actually look a stompa in the eye, like a Knight is supposed to.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Dr. Zombie on February 25, 2014, 11:32:22 AM
It doesn't really matter if it is 6" or 8" it really comes down to girth and how you use it.

That is what I have been told anyways....
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Andym on February 25, 2014, 01:51:37 PM
I thought it said 8" tall? Off to check...
Nope you're right 6", not as good a deal as I thought now  lol

I agree with you that DIFFINATELY said 8" the first time I read it! I wonder how that would stand up to people's consumer rights? Is that false advertising?
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Kitsune on February 25, 2014, 02:56:13 PM
I agree with you that DIFFINATELY said 8" the first time I read it! I wonder how that would stand up to people's consumer rights? Is that false advertising?

Nah, its called a mistake.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Modhail on February 25, 2014, 06:02:59 PM
I dunno, getting your measurements wrong by 25% is quite an error is certain circles...
I'm just glad the staffer who made the error isn't a carpenter or contractor.  ;D
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: beefcake on February 26, 2014, 08:15:55 AM
They pulled a stealth change as it said 8" over the weekend. Overcompensating, as ever.

????? WHAT?!? Were they using the wrong tape measure or was a chimp measuring it?
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Mason on February 26, 2014, 09:34:06 AM
We all know that GW prices are ridiculous (well, we mostly agree on that...) but now I am going to propose something really radical for this thread.

How about we all start to say what we DO like about GW?

I am with the majority on this subject, having been a GW gamer and now no longer, but before I stopped playing GW games (mostly, as I will still play the occasional game of Mordheim) I was a fan of their systems and miniatures.

In fact, like many, it was GW that got me into the hobby in a big way in the first place.
I remember walking into the Rye Stamp and Hobby shop in Peckham in 1985 with instructions to buy myself some stamps, as that was the hobby that I was supposed to be getting into, and instead, seeing cabinet after cabinet of metal miniatures looking back at me.

That was it for the stamps, I can tell ya!

I ended up going home with a box of ECW figures as they were on sale in the 10p box.
I had no real idea what they were, I just slapped paint on them....badly.
That did not matter, though, as I was soon back again, but this time I was eyeing up the fantasy figures.

And you all know the story from there.....fantasy figures, Warhammer, 40k and Blood Bowl (first edition) and Battlecars all followed swiftly.

Add to that the roleplaying in the worlds of Judge Dredd, Golden Heroes and Middle Earth, GW was responsible for a lot of really good times for me and my mates.

I am sure that for a lot of you it was the same.

I was fortunate enough to become involved in the hobby in what I consider the 'Golden Years' of GW, the eighties and nineties.
I may not like the direction that the company has gone in for the last decade or so, but without GW I would not be still enjoying this wonderful hobby now.

I am sure a lot of you also have many fond memories of playing their games.

So, I have to say: Thank You Games Workshop.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: beefcake on February 26, 2014, 09:35:54 AM


How about we all start to say what we DO like about GW?



I thought most people were actually saying that they liked the new Knight miniature (Maxiature?) I like it.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Mason on February 26, 2014, 09:39:01 AM
I thought most people were actually saying that they liked the new Knight miniature (Maxiature?) I like it.

Well, in general, this thread does tend to end up in a bit of a 'GW bash'. so I thought that I would look for some positive things to say, and ask others for their good points about the company....

Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Diakon on February 26, 2014, 10:28:37 AM
I was 11 when I attended a hobby fair at my local folk hall. I didn't know it was on. I was at the park with some friends and I wandered in wondering what the fair was. I only had £1 on me but I ended up buying a Grey Knight Terminator. The bloke who babysat for my siblings and I was into 40k and he told me what I'f bought. He'd just grown out of the hobby (like some people do ???) and gave me a box full of metal Space Marines and Eldar. All Rogue Trader stuff. I painted them horribly.  :D

Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: beefcake on February 26, 2014, 10:41:13 AM
Well, in general, this thread does tend to end up in a bit of a 'GW bash'. so I thought that I would look for some positive things to say, and ask others for their good points about the company....


You're right there.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Cubs on February 26, 2014, 10:53:22 AM
I once won a short essay contest with 'The Portal' magazine (it's a free download, available via WaMP), with something called 'The Acorn'. It was basically a wee bunch of words describing how it used to feel to go down to the local toyshop and buy a min with my sweaty 50p coin that represented my pocket money.

That feeling has never left me and nostlagia still motivates me now. I love toy soldiers. Citadel didn't start it (Arifix did) but they did fuel it. Aah, those weekends spent in the garage with my brother playing vast Warhammer (First Edition) games on a bit sheet of chipboard.

His Bugman's Rangers always shot down pretty much everything that trudged its weary way forward and then chopped up what was left. In fact I only ever won one game, because his guys took shelter inside a big fort and shut the door and I happened to have taken an Earth Elemental Wizard, who promply brought the whole thing down.

Citadel and Games Workshop have pushed the whole miniatures industry forward and forced other manufacturers to develop at a similar rate or be left behind. Their pioneers of the 80's and 90's have scattered their influence way beyond fantasy and sci-fi and we wouldn't have the same range or quality of products available today had they not been so determined to push the boundaries of making pretty toys.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Argonor on February 26, 2014, 01:05:15 PM
I think, most of us have, at some point, given GW credit for the impact that it had on the world of gaming with miniatures. I know I did, for one, arguably probably a long time ago. The big problem is, that most of the good things it/they did, really also happened a long time ago.

I already collected and painted 1/72 plastics (napoleonics), but GW made me delve into the world of 28 mm gaming, for sure. I also collected quite a bunch of their miniatures and rules, but mostly before the coming of the internet, when nothing else was readily available. Even then, I think I only ever played one single game of Warhamster, and 2 (I think) games og 40K.

Thing is, the minis, fluff, and imagery appealed to me, the rules did not. Had my local games shop (which I ended op managing for a period of 5½ year) had other rulesets and minis to offer (or if the internet had appeared in full force a bit earlier), I think I might have been much more into the 28 mm hobby much earlier. As it came to happen, I had a long pause from it, going back to 1/72, until my brain fostered an urge to do something RPG-inspired/Call of Cthulhu-style/Indiana Jones flavoured gaming, and I started searching the internet and found the 'pulp'-gaming genre, and the Prof's websites showing all kinds of pulpy minis (that was even before this forum was created).

I still from time to time tried to re-evoke some interest in the 40K-univetse, but after a short burst of effort, I always turned away from a half-finished project.

I did collect almost every mini made for the LotR:SBG, and would have continued collecting stuff for the Hobbit, had the prices not sky-rocketed. I kind of like(d) the different approach of the rules, alhough they do not really contain an incentive to have individual models running around and fighting on their own, but favour ganging up.

I have now put all my 40K-stuff in a couple of big cardboard boxes in the garage (still thinking that I may use some of it for In the Emperor's Name), and only ever consider buying second-hand stuff, if I should need something for a project.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: matthais-mouse on February 26, 2014, 05:00:21 PM
It doesn't really matter if it is 6" or 8" it really comes down to girth and how you use it.

That is what I have been told anyways....

I wont lie, since this is the first post of this page it made me think I had opened the wrong thread.....  :o

As for the new knight, I dont like it as its going down the route of 'bigger is better' which I do not like, forge world was always the one for the more specialist gear. Games workshop need to go back to when they had reasonable games and rules, especially the specialist games range ( i was a few weeks away from starting battlefleet gothic when they pulled the miniatures and the prices sky rocketted on ebay  ??? )

However I do still like their fluff and background/history and still model various aspects of both fantasy and 40,000. But I do buy online at giftsforgeeks.co.uk to get my stuff cheaper.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: FramFramson on February 26, 2014, 10:47:12 PM
News from a friend:

Quote from: pacobird
I hadn't done any research on the 40k MMO because it is an MMO in alpha and this is not my first rodeo, but I dug up an interview from last summer and apparently they're going to make the Orks the Free 2 Play faction, which is the best MMO-related idea I've heard in years

Holy shit! That's bloody brilliant if true.  ;D
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Vermis on February 26, 2014, 10:56:11 PM
So orks are likely to outnumber all other factions and possibly attract a greater number of idle griefers and all the other dregs of the internet.

Very appropriate. Should be fun. Can I be a Bad Moon? :D
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: pixelgeek on February 27, 2014, 12:02:18 AM
How about we all start to say what we DO like about GW?

Your post sounds like what you liked about what GW was.

If you were a part of that "golden age" of GW gaming then the current company is a grand disappointment. Its like going back to see your teenage sweetheart and finding out that she is a scab-encrusted prostitute.

GW does quite a lot of things right, at least in terms of their game background and miniatures, but it has erected this paywall that effectively keeps most people out.

Which is probably why we still complain. They make some great toys and a great universe but make it too difficult to play.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: beefcake on February 27, 2014, 06:21:00 AM
So orks are likely to outnumber all other factions and possibly attract a greater number of idle griefers and all the other dregs of the internet.

Very appropriate. Should be fun. Can I be a Bad Moon? :D

You got that right, just like orcs should be.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Mason on February 27, 2014, 09:36:16 AM
Your post sounds like what you liked about what GW was.

If you were a part of that "golden age" of GW gaming then the current company is a grand disappointment. Its like going back to see your teenage sweetheart and finding out that she is a scab-encrusted prostitute.

GW does quite a lot of things right, at least in terms of their game background and miniatures, but it has erected this paywall that effectively keeps most people out.

Which is probably why we still complain. They make some great toys and a great universe but make it too difficult to play.

Pretty much sums up the way I feel about GW NOW.

Although to be fair, they do still produce some good stuff, it is just that, as time goes by, they do it less often.

In the 'Golden Age' I liked pretty much everything, and still do.
Nowadys there is less and less that I like.

I do still use their scenery and think most of their Fantasy stuff is good (not so keen on the 40k stuff) and still fancy the occasional figure, but the last of their figures that I acquired (not from them at their prices, I have to add) were the Ghouls and one of the Giant Ghoul-things, but that was over a year ago.

I also lament the loss of their old range of washes, as I LOVED them.
 :'( :'(

The only thing that I buy regularly now are the Horus Heresy novels as I am really enjoying them.

Enough to make me want to paint all my old skool 40k figures soon (ish)...

Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Cubs on February 27, 2014, 10:48:01 AM

I also lament the loss of their old range of washes, as I LOVED them.
 :'( :'(

I loved the old Devlan Mud and have recreated it using inks mixed with Vallejo's black and brown glazes. Their glazes are the same sort of consistency as paints, but are much more slippery and translucent.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: zemjw on February 27, 2014, 12:41:17 PM
According to Dakkadakka (http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/493017.page) (and I've seen the same information in other places), the old washes are the same as certain Army Painter ones. From the Dakkadakka site

CitadelArmy Painter
GryphoneSoft Tone ink
DevlanStrong Tone ink
Badab blackDark Tone ink

I have looked for Strong Tone a couple of times, but haven't found a bottle yet, so can't comment on the validity of the above table

edit: a review of the army painter stuff can be found at Tale Of Painters (http://taleofpainters.blogspot.de/2012/02/review-army-painter-warpaints.html)
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Cubs on February 27, 2014, 12:46:12 PM
No, they're definitely not. The inks are just that - inks. They are what I used to mix with the glazes to get the same effect as the old washes, with that slippery feel that worked so well.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: carlos13th on February 27, 2014, 01:31:13 PM
I think they are the same for colour but not constancy.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Too Bo Coo on February 27, 2014, 01:48:21 PM
I think they are the same for colour but not constancy.

I agree, close to the same colors, but not the same consistency.  The AP stuff I like a bit better.  It's nice to do outlining work.  Also note, the AP inks are very close in color to their 'dip' counterparts, but they are VERY different products.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Cubs on February 27, 2014, 01:51:00 PM
The Strong Tone is brown ink.

The Dark Tone is very very dark brown, almost black.

From what I recall, Devlan Mud was somewhere inbetween, but I confess my memory may well be mistaken.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Dr.Falkenhayn on February 27, 2014, 01:59:17 PM
nope they aren't the same:Gryphone Sepia is much more yellowish than AP Soft Tone.
AP Strong Tone is darker than Devlan Mud
AP Dark Tone is very equally to Badab Black though

i moved to the Washes from Secret Weapon-never looked back  :)

Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Too Bo Coo on February 27, 2014, 02:00:08 PM
The Strong Tone is brown ink.

The Dark Tone is very very dark brown, almost black.

From what I recall, Devlan Mud was somewhere inbetween, but I confess my memory may well be mistaken.

Exactly!  I think the colors are meant to correspond to the Dip Shades as much as they could.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Vermis on February 27, 2014, 06:20:38 PM
The only thing that I buy regularly now are the Horus Heresy novels as I am really enjoying them.

Ayup. Picked up the latest Eisenhorn/Ravenor book on Tuesday. Still waiting for Lords of Mars to turn up in paperback.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: FramFramson on February 27, 2014, 06:47:51 PM
I bought a hoard of pots of the old washes, especially Ogryn Flesh, Devlan Mud, and Gryphonne Sepia, all of which are nigh-irreplaceable to me. God knows what I'll do when the current supply runs out a few years down the road  :'(

I use them to do most of my skin painting (by careful layering of thin glazes) and all my techniques for that revolve around those old GW washes, especially their colour and consistency.

The Sepia does indeed have a critical yellow component and Devlan Mud is a bit of a dirty brown.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: beefcake on February 27, 2014, 07:50:34 PM
 :'( My Devlan Mud ran out last weekend  >:(
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Citizen Sade on February 27, 2014, 08:20:53 PM
I read somewhere that the Army Painter washes are from the same factory and use the same "recipe" as the old GW washes - Dark tone (Badab Black), Strong tone (Devlan Mud), Light tone (Gryphonne Sepia). Can anyone confirm of deny this or even simply that they are an acceptable substitute?

Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Commander Vyper on February 27, 2014, 08:37:18 PM
I read somewhere that the Army Painter washes are from the same factory and use the same "recipe" as the old GW washes - Dark tone (Badab Black), Strong tone (Devlan Mud), Light tone (Gryphonne Sepia). Can anyone confirm of deny this or even simply that they are an acceptable substitute?




Well someone doesn't read the posts prior to post em do they! ;)

I've a got a stash of devlan, badab etc in my paint collection,  not an inexhaustible supply but enough to do going on with.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Cubs on February 27, 2014, 09:32:39 PM
I repeat, I use inks (Army Painter 'Strong Tone' and 'Dark Tone') plus Vallejo's brown and black glazes to make a more than acceptable substitute for the old Devlan Mud. I advise anyone to give it a go.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Too Bo Coo on February 27, 2014, 09:33:58 PM
I repeat, I use inks (Army Painter 'Strong Tone' and 'Dark Tone') plus Vallejo's brown and black glazes to make a more than acceptable substitute for the old Devlan Mud. I advise anyone to give it a go.

Do you go 50/50 on the Vallejo?
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Citizen Sade on February 28, 2014, 12:52:33 AM
Well someone doesn't read the posts prior to post em do they! ;)
Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa. You think I read all this crap? I just click "Show unread posts since last visit"  ;)
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: FramFramson on February 28, 2014, 07:54:30 AM
I repeat, I use inks (Army Painter 'Strong Tone' and 'Dark Tone') plus Vallejo's brown and black glazes to make a more than acceptable substitute for the old Devlan Mud. I advise anyone to give it a go.

Proportions, man! We need proportions!  >:D
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Cubs on February 28, 2014, 09:34:05 AM
Do you go 50/50 on the Vallejo?
Proportions, man! We need proportions!  >:D

Ah, now you've got me. I just sort of muck about with it until it looks right. Less glaze than ink though, maybe about 20%? ish?
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: zemjw on February 28, 2014, 10:46:32 AM
I've posted this link before, but it's worth mentioning again

http://www.awesomepaintjob.com/index.cfm/resources.recipes

has instructions for making custom washes

I haven't tried this yet myself (an admission which didn't end up too well last time ;D), so no guarantees
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Too Bo Coo on February 28, 2014, 12:40:19 PM
Games Workshop Amsterdam closed...
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: knoxville on February 28, 2014, 12:54:36 PM
Games Workshop Amsterdam closed...

Which one?
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Too Bo Coo on February 28, 2014, 01:24:50 PM
The only one... :D
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Commander Vyper on February 28, 2014, 01:37:44 PM
Well it's not like they're aren't many places in Dam where after a few minutes you'll be seeing giant goblins and talking trees! ;) o_oMo
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: knoxville on February 28, 2014, 03:45:25 PM
The only one... :D

Ah OK, I knew about the one at Rokin (?) street, but according to GWs website there are 2 (west and south), so I was wondering which one it was. They always had some nice stuff on display, I am hoping they'll reopen somewhere soon.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Lowtardog on February 28, 2014, 03:51:39 PM
There used to be one in Haarlem up the road?
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: YPU on February 28, 2014, 05:16:20 PM
I just got round to trying the newish GW technical paint for verdigris. Nihilakx (or something) oxide. That stuff is awesome. I'm sure there are other, better, ways to do it but this stuff is fast, a thick wash like substance and it dries matte. Works very quickly and great for what I was trying to achieve on my OGAM Greek undead. What,you thought I was actually painting GW models with them?  :D
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Too Bo Coo on February 28, 2014, 07:38:12 PM
There used to be one in Haarlem up the road?

Haarlem is not quite 'up the road' lol  I'm not sure about Zuid, but the Rokin was the only one in the Centrum that I knew of.  Now there's a woman's clothing store there and the Imperial Eagles look somewhat out of place...or very chic...
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: pixelgeek on February 28, 2014, 10:19:22 PM
I've posted this link before, but it's worth mentioning again

http://www.awesomepaintjob.com/index.cfm/resources.recipes

has instructions for making custom washes

Correct me if I am wrong but those are the washes that Secret Weapon now produces.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: beefcake on March 01, 2014, 12:10:39 AM
New knight fluff books out. Here's what one says  lol
Quote
The Imperial Knight Companion is packed with everything you need to know about the rich and fascinating history of the Imperial Knights. From examples of how Knight heraldry is created and changes over time to full colour illustrations of Imperial, Adeptus Mechanicus and Freeblade Knight colour schemes.

This 144 page large hardback is a true collectors companion. Beautifully written and stunningly presented you will find yourself pouring over its pages time and time again. Prepare to be inspired.

Warning: exposure to this book may result in the overwhelming desire to collect, build and paint many Knights! 


Love that last line!
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Vermis on March 01, 2014, 03:09:41 AM
I wouldn't mind having a look at that book. (I already have the Uniforms and Heraldry books for Empire and Skaven. :? ) I get that feeling about a lot of GW products. But I know this one'll end the same way - one look at the price-tag...
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: beefcake on March 01, 2014, 07:11:25 AM
I wouldn't mind having a look at that book. (I already have the Uniforms and Heraldry books for Empire and Skaven. :? ) I get that feeling about a lot of GW products. But I know this one'll end the same way - one look at the price-tag...

Yeah, it turns out, down her in NZ, to be about a dollar a page. Jeepers if very book cost that much I would only be reading picture books or make sure all the books I bought were just on one giant massively long scroll.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: knoxville on March 04, 2014, 09:30:22 AM
Haarlem is not quite 'up the road' lol  I'm not sure about Zuid, but the Rokin was the only one in the Centrum that I knew of.  Now there's a woman's clothing store there and the Imperial Eagles look somewhat out of place...or very chic...

Good news! Check the GW website, apparently they closed the Rokin store before opening two new stores in Amsterdam! :)

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?aId=30500012a

GW Amsterdam West: http://www.facebook.com/GWAmsterdamWest
GW Amsterdam South: http://www.facebook.com/GWAmsterdamSouth

Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Too Bo Coo on March 04, 2014, 12:05:15 PM
Good news! Check the GW website, apparently they closed the Rokin store before opening two new stores in Amsterdam! :)

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?aId=30500012a

GW Amsterdam West: http://www.facebook.com/GWAmsterdamWest
GW Amsterdam South: http://www.facebook.com/GWAmsterdamSouth



Oh sweet!  I really only buy paint from them, but I'm getting low on primer :D  Jammer on the Rokin shop, it was on the main drag and an easy walk from work...
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Mahwell skel on March 04, 2014, 02:57:08 PM
There is an interesting article in the latest Wargames soldiers and strategy about how the recent surge in skirmish games is a reaction to the GW policy of starter sets and everything in one box.

There is some good insight into people wanting to play with less than 30 figures on the saves time/quick games/ less to paint argument with wargames time competing with computer games and a lot of
"instant fix" stuff these days.

It is quite positive about GW saying without a lot of youngsters getting the initial taste the industry would be worse off.

Not sure that will ring true soon though. My FLGS sells little GW while churning tons of blot action and the various mantic stuff.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Predatorpt on March 09, 2014, 03:11:18 AM
Saw these today. Revamped Imperial Guard or something like that:

[MOD: Removed scans of unreleased White Dwarf's pages. GW are notorious in slapping C&Ds on sites showing these, and in Germany, this can get expensive.

Google for "Militarum Tempestus" and "Taurox Prime" if you want to see pics.]


The figures seem nice and the vehicle, if "cleaned" of all skulls and similar, would be a great all-terrain vehicle for new space colonies  ;D
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Predatorpt on March 09, 2014, 03:14:29 AM
And prices:

[MOD: The Taurox track will be 29 GBP/38 EUR/48 USD/55 AU$/58 CAN$]
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Dr.Falkenhayn on March 09, 2014, 04:04:47 AM


 lol lol lol Bet we'll see a Grimdark Version of this soon  ::)
(http://www.fisher-price.com/img/product_shots/X0061-wheelies-disney-pixar-cars-2-speed-n-sounds-race-track-d-1.jpg)
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: beefcake on March 09, 2014, 04:24:12 AM
Troopers look cool but are almost verging on space marine armour
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: weismonsters on March 09, 2014, 04:32:20 AM
Seems that in terms of vehiicles they went from the sublime to the ridiculous with their last two releases.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Dr Mathias on March 09, 2014, 05:49:20 AM
It seems like GW has been influenced by Warzone to me. That vehicle is a straight up non-sequitur for Imperial Guard.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Dr. The Viking on March 09, 2014, 08:03:18 AM
Cool!

A bit like the british WW2 quad thing from the desert war.

The troopers are a bit overarmoured perhaps, but nice throwback to the 2nd ed stormies.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Dr. Zombie on March 09, 2014, 08:37:49 AM
I like the stormtroopers but the car is horrible. It foresee it as being turned into a lot of ork battle wagons.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Andym on March 09, 2014, 08:50:27 AM
The truck is total guff! It looks like an Ork Truk!! It's a pity they've lost that 'real' army look! On the plus side, for the second time on a big model, there is a SEVERE lack of skulls ( for GW anyway)! Just leave out the radiator grill and your sorted! Troops are ok!
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Argonor on March 09, 2014, 10:41:04 AM
DKK 210 for 5 troopers. As if!  ::)
They are nice enough, but there are so many other nice armoured sci-fi models out there.

The vehicle reminds me in shape a bit of the big IG moving fortress (cannot remember its name) from Epic (1st or 2nd Ed.).
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Cubs on March 09, 2014, 12:08:29 PM
It definitely has the snub-nosed look of modern British AFVs and APCs to me, as well as the old WW2 Quad Tractor -

Mastiff

(http://armour.ws/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/British-MASTIFF-VEHICLE.jpg)


Warthog

(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_En-sxfOkXP8/SsFee8T2CfI/AAAAAAAADQY/XnBiVP2FalY/s400/Warthog_STK.jpg)


Quad

(http://subgrafik.com/armour/quad/panzerflixcom_cmpquad001.jpg)

Somehow it does seem to have missed a certain something though. I suspect it could be saved with a half-tidy paintjob. I actually quite like the look of the models (the beret is a nice touch because I loved the old IG Stormtroopers) but as others have said, perhaps a tad too much armour.

Not bad though, I must say.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Too Bo Coo on March 09, 2014, 12:59:50 PM
As a kid I didnt know how big it actually was so I wanted either a quad or a kubelwagon as my first car..lol
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Cubs on March 09, 2014, 07:53:51 PM
As a kid I didnt know how big it actually was so I wanted either a quad or a kubelwagon as my first car..lol


Hell, it ain't so far removed from a Humvee and if some Hollywood gimps can have one, so should you. As an amsuing (and slightly tragic) anecdote I was with the missus in a little Cornish village once and saw some (presumably) tourist trying to negotiate a narrow winding hill with cars parked down both sides. Eventually he gave up and just ploughed through, scraping down sides and tearing off wing mirrors before merrily growling off into the distance. The funny bit was seeing about a dozen people reach for their phones and take a picture or make a call to the local coppers. I can't imagine it got too far without being pulled over ...
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Too Bo Coo on March 09, 2014, 08:02:40 PM
Hell, it ain't so far removed from a Humvee and if some Hollywood gimps can have one, so should you. As an amsuing (and slightly tragic) anecdote I was with the missus in a little Cornish village once and saw some (presumably) tourist trying to negotiate a narrow winding hill with cars parked down both sides. Eventually he gave up and just ploughed through, scraping down sides and tearing off wing mirrors before merrily growling off into the distance. The funny bit was seeing about a dozen people reach for their phones and take a picture or make a call to the local coppers. I can't imagine it got too far without being pulled over ...

Start from 00:40

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kb_m__x19Xw

Bloody Americans...
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: nic-e on March 10, 2014, 12:17:29 AM
I really want to give that tank anti grav engines, all diesel punky and dirty. two pods per track space, make it all kinds of punky and do it up as an inter hive troupe of actors with las guns :D

Maybe take off the back roof and give it a canvas roof with a back stage and sponson stubbers :D
.....okay yeah, i hates it at first but no i want it with the stortroopers to make my dream of Blanche style punk actors come true.

(may even pick up a kinight and call it "the fat lady" so i can make it sing and end the battle.)

...................

sorry...i got lost in my head.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: FramFramson on March 10, 2014, 01:09:42 AM
Hell, it ain't so far removed from a Humvee and if some Hollywood gimps can have one, so should you. As an amsuing (and slightly tragic) anecdote I was with the missus in a little Cornish village once and saw some (presumably) tourist trying to negotiate a narrow winding hill with cars parked down both sides. Eventually he gave up and just ploughed through, scraping down sides and tearing off wing mirrors before merrily growling off into the distance. The funny bit was seeing about a dozen people reach for their phones and take a picture or make a call to the local coppers. I can't imagine it got too far without being pulled over ...
Did the driver look like Kevin Klein?  ;)
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Cubs on March 10, 2014, 09:29:02 AM
Did the driver look like Kevin Klein?  ;)

Tricky to tell though the back window of a Humvee.

I think I can see what GW were trying to do with the vehicle (light tank? apc?) but it seems a little off target. Seems too high for me and the two banks of tracks on each side look like a gimmick. Stick some big-ass wheels or a single track on each side and it could be a goer.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: pixelgeek on March 10, 2014, 02:15:12 PM
Yet another in a long line of disappointing vehicle releases. Not sure who is doing their plastic vehicle kits but they have been pretty lacklustre lately.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Mason on March 10, 2014, 02:24:07 PM
Yet another in a long line of disappointing vehicle releases. Not sure who is doing their plastic vehicle kits but they have been pretty lacklustre lately.

I have to agree.
The sense of believabilty is disappear further over the horizon with each release.
They appear more toy-like as time goes on, what with this thing and the Dwarf Gyro-thingy looking like new releases from Mattel.....

I think the whole image of the 40k universe has been going in a strange direction over the last few years.
I fear for where it will end up, as I used to see a use for their kits (conversions, of course) but not their latest offerings.

Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Too Bo Coo on March 10, 2014, 05:58:59 PM
I have to agree.
The sense of believabilty is disappear further over the horizon with each release.
They appear more toy-like as time goes on, what with this thing and the Dwarh Gyrothingy looking like new releases from Mattel.....

I think the whole image of the 40k universe has been going in a strange direction over the last few years.
I fear for where it will end up, as I used to see a use for their kits (conversions, of course) but not their latest offerings.



To be honest, I had to look a few tomes to make such it was a GW release and not Mattel.  It looks like cheap soft plastic crap. 
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Argonor on March 10, 2014, 06:48:58 PM
The vehicle reminds me in shape a bit of the big IG moving fortress (cannot remember its name) from Epic (1st or 2nd Ed.).

I remember it now: The Leviathan: http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Leviathan

Even that has single tracks...  ::)
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: pixelgeek on March 10, 2014, 07:07:05 PM
I think the whole image of the 40k universe has been going in a strange direction over the last few years.
I fear for where it will end up, as I used to see a use for their kits (conversions, of course) but not their latest offerings.

I blame 3D modelling for these latest "meh" kits from GW. I think that the designers aren't able to visualize the vehicles properly when making them. Compared to what FW is putting out these look like rubbish.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Mason on March 10, 2014, 07:13:59 PM
I blame 3D modelling for these latest "meh" kits from GW. I think that the designers aren't able to visualize the vehicles properly when making them. Compared to what FW is putting out these look like rubbish.

I agree.

I used to see Forgeworld as a 'Rich Boys' toyshop.
Great stuff but too pricey for me.

Now it is starting to look pretty good value when you compare their quality and price to what the other part of GW offer.

Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: carlos13th on March 10, 2014, 11:32:44 PM
That vehicle is awful Those weird track stilts just look bad.

I agree that GW stuff seems to be getting more cartoony as time goes on.

Disappointed with the guard to. The karskin were better. Are those metal models still avalable? pretty sure you could get 10 of them for the price of these 5 plastics.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Predatorpt on March 11, 2014, 04:17:39 AM
While searching for some videos about their new Imperial Knights mechs, I came across some official GW tutorials on painting them:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=njhLv_nyP_s&list=UUwdh3MTrFq3sXlB4ct8B-Fg

And I have to say that I was impressed. For someone who already knows how to paint, they don't bring anything new to the table, but for someone who's starting on the hobby it's really helpful. And the best part...it's free!  ;D
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Modhail on March 11, 2014, 09:42:30 AM
I think, but it's hard to see from the teeny little pictures, that those "pidgin-latin-stormtroopers", may not be all that bad. If only as parts for Inq28 or Necromunda conversions.

But I just can't figure out that combat-winnebago... It looks like something out of an 80's cartoon.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Diakon on March 11, 2014, 11:43:28 AM
combat-winnebago

If only they'd actually made that. Then I'd buy it.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Too Bo Coo on March 11, 2014, 01:19:28 PM
it looks like a toy from the He-Man range
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Dr. Zombie on March 11, 2014, 01:30:15 PM
it looks like a toy from the He-Man range

He-Mans Attack Track
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P533KZLth5g
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Too Bo Coo on March 11, 2014, 01:43:07 PM
He-Mans Attack Track
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P533KZLth5g

Exactly what I was thinking about...LOL!
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: FramFramson on March 11, 2014, 06:52:53 PM
Nice catch!  lol

Man that was good for a laugh.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Too Bo Coo on March 11, 2014, 06:57:39 PM
Nice catch!  lol

Man that was good for a laugh.

Seriously, am I wrong?? lol :D
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: pixelgeek on March 11, 2014, 09:45:56 PM
And I have to say that I was impressed.

That model is a lot more complex than I thought it would be.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Predatorpt on March 12, 2014, 02:02:31 AM
Ogryns!

(http://i270.photobucket.com/albums/jj93/predatorpt/Forums/538010_723011781071729_1066997153_n_zps1d8fd66d.jpg)
(http://i270.photobucket.com/albums/jj93/predatorpt/Forums/1173908_723011717738402_869779504_n_zps8057cf26.jpg)
(http://i270.photobucket.com/albums/jj93/predatorpt/Forums/1939992_723011767738397_2069099912_n_zpsaffa8cfd.jpg)
(http://i270.photobucket.com/albums/jj93/predatorpt/Forums/1896778_723011727738401_1400757198_n_zps7123636c.jpg)
(http://i270.photobucket.com/albums/jj93/predatorpt/Forums/1962752_723011721071735_1269925886_n_zpsa9f616b9.jpg)

And another Chimera version

(http://i270.photobucket.com/albums/jj93/predatorpt/Forums/1959327_723011764405064_279272368_n_zps6e62c782.jpg)
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Diakon on March 12, 2014, 02:22:03 AM
Man those Ogryns is ugly.  lol
Sure I saw the top one in The Goonies.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: pixelgeek on March 12, 2014, 04:01:26 AM
Man those Ogryns is ugly.  lol

Its a series of figures that haven't had a decent model since Bob Olley.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Too Bo Coo on March 12, 2014, 04:31:03 AM
Its a series of figures that haven't had a decent model since Bob Olley.

Agreed, just awful.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Diakon on March 12, 2014, 05:08:39 AM
Its a series of figures that haven't had a decent model since Bob Olley.

Also agreed. I'm feeling really sore right now 'cos I just lost a Bob Olley Ogryn on ebay by 40p.  :( :'(

Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Johnno on March 12, 2014, 05:18:08 AM
Man those Ogryns is ugly.  lol
Sure I saw the top one in The Goonies.
Heyyy yooouuu guuuuuuuys!
The one that looks like Bane with the riot shield looks good to me
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: beefcake on March 12, 2014, 05:21:23 AM
I quite like those. But still won't get them.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Cubs on March 12, 2014, 10:12:20 AM
They don't look too bad to me, but I am continually annoyed by the steroid abuse look that GW sticks with. There doesn't seem to be any ... what ... life? to them. I know they're plastic models, but they don't have to look plastic after painting. Maybe I'm nit-picking.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Kitsune on March 12, 2014, 11:59:59 AM
Not sure that will ring true soon though. My FLGS sells little GW while churning tons of blot action and the various mantic stuff.

Who's buying the mantic and BA stuff - the younger, next generation, of gamers or the older pre existing ones?
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Vermis on March 12, 2014, 12:50:43 PM
The one that looks like Bane with the riot shield looks good to me

Me too. But I think it's because he's mostly covered up. Like a big paper bag over his head and everything else, made of tank parts.
Also, what Cubs said. I look at these and my second thought (after 'man they uglee') is 'someone could clean up, sculpting and selling good versions.'
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: westwaller on March 12, 2014, 01:26:57 PM
I like the paint job on the guys with shields (they have made a good choice not to paint the legs as trousers)  but as Cubs says it still looks 'plastic'. GW newer stuff looks like the sculptor charges extra to do curves!!. Is Sci Fi combat possible in ultra tight trousers? Some nice bits, but overall they look a bit 'He-Man' really.

I have just had a thought, maybe they are designing their figures on an 'Etch a sketch', that is why there aren't many curves...
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Timbor on March 12, 2014, 01:56:41 PM
I think those ogryns look better than the previous plastic ogryns, I somewhat like the sculpts.  But they lack the character of older miniatures.  They do seem more in line with current GW sculpting to make things look 'ultra realistic', perhaps to a fault.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Vermis on March 12, 2014, 05:49:20 PM
They do seem more in line with current GW sculpting to make things look 'ultra realistic'

Then they failed miserably. :D

There are a few general complaints about GW's style and look these days: too realistic, too cartoony, even the slightly bonkers too computer-assisted designed...ey. I don't think any of these really fit. With these ogryns in particular, I think the main point is that they're just not very good.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Diakon on March 12, 2014, 06:56:11 PM
I don't think any of these really fit. With these ogryns on particular, I think the main point is that they're just not very good.

Nail on the head. They're a shadow of their former selves. Even some recent-ish things have being of excellent quality. The current plastic Plaguebearers for example are lovely. The odd character miniature over the last five years or so has been good too. Like The Changeling and the Warhammer plastic Nurgle Lord miniature that everyone on Ammobunker is always converting into INQ28.
But over the last year the ratio of good:bad has shifted radically. Out of these new Guard models I'm literally seeing nothing I'd even consider buying. The Stormtroopers are ridiculously over sized and overladen with skulls, aquillas etc., the new APC looks like a Tonka toy and the Ogryns are just, as you say Vermis, not very good. The Chimera variant is okay-ish I guess but the main gun looks bigger than the chassis.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: mcfonz on March 12, 2014, 08:18:41 PM
Those Ogryn's are nothing short of horrific. Plain ugly. Not a single good thing about them. Really don't like the use of track links as armour. Don't like the blocky uber guns. Faces are worse than the Ogre Kingdoms ones - which I would personally switch them out to.

These are better:
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-ofVpTHf3pcY/To28ihNKGbI/AAAAAAAAAEM/gpYegg4lShg/s1600/Ogryn+Showcase.JPG)
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Timbor on March 12, 2014, 08:38:37 PM
To each his own... I like them more than the ones in this style:

(http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1241860_99060105220_IGOgryn2main_873x627.jpg)
(http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1241865_99060105221_IGOgryn3main_873x627.jpg)

Though I still like this rendition much better:

(http://www.solegends.com/citcat2000/c2000p111-01.jpg)

I can see what they were trying to do with the sculpts, and overall they are an improvement, IMO.  I really dislike the OK range at this point in general, so I don't think their faces would help any.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Vermis on March 12, 2014, 08:43:19 PM
Those top ones aren't very good either, Timbor.  :P

Looking at them, I'm reminded of something Steve Buddle once blogged about, and that might explain the 'too CAD-looking' complaints. Namely, the idea that GW might have started to design metal/finecast minis to resemble minis subject to the undercut limitations of plastic injection. I can sort of see it in the flattened, angular planes and features, especially in the faces.
'Course, this doesn't explain why even plastic minis should have flattened planes all over, and I don't think it accounts for the drop in quality, specifically in these ogryns and the new plastic versions. I agree that they look kind of lifeless, but I don't agree it's down to CAD. Can't really put my finger on it, but they look chunky and simplified. Has this got something to do with appealing to a younger market? I dunno. In addition, I look at the faces of these soon-to-be-replaced ogryns and TBH they look like the sculptor didn't have much of a grasp of how a face is put together. I can see how they'd appeal in being neat and clean in their angularity, but noses, brows, creases, teeth etc. look pretty crude and inexpert. Is it because the sculptor isn't up to scratch, or because they're railroaded into a house style, including a sort of (de) evolution of what's sold in the past? (especially with crude ogryn faces) Does any of that 'simplified for kids' theory come into it too?

I'm not really fond of the vintage Perry and Goodwin ogres and ogryns, with their flat noses and goofy Muppet faces; but they do look preferable to all these later versions. (especially when you look past the faces) Cartoony and a bit crude, but looking more like the old boys knew what they were doing and designing, and knew what anatomy they were exaggerating. (not surprising) More characterful. Less of the 'designed by committee', 'sculpt-by-numbers' look.

Quote
the Warhammer plastic Nurgle Lord miniature that everyone on Ammobunker is always converting into INQ28.

Not too shabby, is it? I bought one at full price. Considering buying another, even at full price, for converting.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: nic-e on March 12, 2014, 09:26:57 PM
okay, i don't like them enough to buy them but two things jump to mind....
1.arbites ogryns.
2.riot prevention imperial guard centurion mashup.call them the spartan squad and that'd explain their phalanx style shields.

on the one hand gw mini's always give my ideas, on the other im sad that i never like them enough to want them for anything but conversions.the potential is there, just buried under lots of meh :P
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Mason on March 12, 2014, 09:35:27 PM
on the one hand gw mini's always give my ideas, on the other im sad that i never like them enough to want them for anything but conversions.the potential is there, just buried under lots of meh :P

The nail has been hit on the head!
 :D

Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Vermis on March 12, 2014, 09:40:09 PM
Quote
on the one hand gw mini's always give my ideas, on the other im sad that i never like them enough to want them for anything but conversions.the potential is there, just buried under lots of meh

True, true! Hence the second thought.

Steve Buddle's aforementioned blog post:

http://spyglassasylum.blogspot.co.uk/2011/03/curious-case-of-making-metal-look.html
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: nic-e on March 12, 2014, 09:45:32 PM
True, true! Hence the second thought.

Steve Buddle's aforementioned blog post:

http://spyglassasylum.blogspot.co.uk/2011/03/curious-case-of-making-metal-look.html

You know he did a post the other day that i think is also relevant, about the move away from games workshop a few years ago ,away from punky painting towards the perfectly blended realistic tones. i think gw is trying to strike a balance between the people who want the pieces for fun and the people who want to paint them for display, and it just ends up looking half arsed.
I hope the trend of more blanch style painting comes back because it may add some life to these flat miniatures, but right now i don't look forward to the slew of airbrushed and blended cartoon realistic paintjobs that will come along with this release.

40k is at its core a punky grim dark game of over the top spikyness and stupidity, which is great! but it isnt rackham, it isnt warmahordes or any of the other "cleaner" styled games, and it needs to stop trying to appeal to that market and get back to being spiky dirty and hilariously bleak.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Vermis on March 12, 2014, 09:59:52 PM
You know he did a post the other day that i think is also relevant, about the move away from games workshop a few years ago ,away from punky painting towards the perfectly blended realistic tones. i think gw is trying to strike a balance between the people who want the pieces for fun and the people who want to paint them for display, and it just ends up looking half arsed.
I hope the trend of more blanch style painting comes back because it may add some life to these flat miniatures, but right now i don't look forward to the slew of airbrushed and blended cartoon realistic paintjobs that will come along with this release.

I know! :) Scanning down his blog to look for that link, I was reminded of all the blanchitsu stuff he posted. Particularly the forgeworld ettin (http://spyglassasylum.blogspot.co.uk/2012/01/blanche-on-larger-canvas.html). A wee bit messy-looking on the close-up (nothing too egregious) but like a Blanche painting come to life in the full shot. Convinced me that there was more room for... maybe 'painterly style' isn't quite the right phrase, but more expression. Less of GW's flat basecoat with dark lines, as with all those ogryns, or as you say, perfect, mechanical blends.

Though when you say 'he did a post the other day' - where was that?
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Timbor on March 12, 2014, 10:07:46 PM
Those top ones aren't very good either, Timbor.  :P

Looking at them, I'm reminded of something Steve Buddle once blogged about, and that might explain the 'too CAD-looking' complaints. Namely, the idea that GW might have started to design metal/finecast minis to resemble minis subject to the undercut limitations of plastic injection. I can sort of see it in the flattened, angular planes and features, especially in the faces.
'Course, this doesn't explain why even plastic minis should have flattened planes all over, and I don't think it accounts for the drop in quality, specifically in these ogryns and the new plastic versions. I agree that they look kind of lifeless, but I don't agree it's down to CAD. Can't really put my finger on it, but they look chunky and simplified. Has this got something to do with appealing to a younger market? I dunno. In addition, I look at the faces of these soon-to-be-replaced ogryns and TBH they look like the sculptor didn't have much of a grasp of how a face is put together. I can see how they'd appeal in being neat and clean in their angularity, but noses, brows, creases, teeth etc. look pretty crude and inexpert. Is it because the sculptor isn't up to scratch, or because they're railroaded into a house style, including a sort of (de) evolution of what's sold in the past? (especially with crude ogryn faces) Does any of that 'simplified for kids' theory come into it too?

I'm not really fond of the vintage Perry and Goodwin ogres and ogryns, with their flat noses and goofy Muppet faces; but they do look preferable to all these later versions. (especially when you look past the faces) Cartoony and a bit crude, but looking more like the old boys knew what they were doing and designing, and knew what anatomy they were exaggerating. (not surprising) More characterful. Less of the 'designed by committee', 'sculpt-by-numbers' look.

Not too shabby, is it? I bought one at full price. Considering buying another, even at full price, for converting.

I meant I dislike the current metal ogryns, moreso than the upcoming releases.  I would agree that I have seen a somewhat 'simplification' of details on GW models, if that makes sense.  My main point would be to compare the current plastic skaven troops to older ones - the older ones had more fine detail for the fur and whiskers, etc, whereas the newer ones tend to have smooth, flowing fur and whisker details. Same goes for the 6th edition plastic empire state troops - you could see the fine details for the hair and beards, and the eyelids and cheekbones were visible.  The newer kits have smoother finishes on those which gives it a different look (not necessarily better).

I think a lot of the new kits have been improved in some posing and weapons details, etc, but the simplification of some of those finer details (not to mention the addition of useless skulls bits and bobs) often makes them less appealing.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: nic-e on March 12, 2014, 10:11:22 PM
I know! :) Scanning down his blog to look for that link, I was reminded of all the blanchitsu stuff he posted. Particularly the forgeworld ettin (http://spyglassasylum.blogspot.co.uk/2012/01/blanche-on-larger-canvas.html). A wee bit messy-looking on the close-up (nothing too egregious) but like a Blanche painting come to life in the full shot. Convinced me that there was more room for... maybe 'painterly style' isn't quite the right phrase, but more expression. Less of GW's flat basecoat with dark lines, as with all those ogryns, or as you say, perfect, mechanical blends.

Though when you say 'he did a post the other day' - where was that?

"paintilistic" is the phrase we use, not really a real word but its what we use in the studio to describe the idea of using process and layers to add texture in an expressive way.although if im being an art student arsehole for a minute, i'd describe blanches style almost as sculptural, using the paint to create texture, and actually working into his paint to add depth and form rather than blending to create tone.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Modhail on March 12, 2014, 10:29:00 PM
It seems that GW's  "official" painting style is purely dogmatic and focused on technique, with the miniature itself, or what it is meant to represent given seemingly no thought or attention. It seems to be just: select surface to paint, select colour, start standard painting routine, select next surface, next colour, apply routine again, repeat until all surfaces have been processed. Grab next figure, select surface, etc.... Pure assembly line.
(Hardly surprising, seeing the sheer avalanche of releases GW puts out, the painters simply don't have time go give each mini proper attention or immerse themselves in the subject at hand.)
And, judging by a segment of modern sculpts, the same goes for the sculptors.
Such a shame, and waste of a perfectly good setting, IP and visual style.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: nic-e on March 12, 2014, 10:40:17 PM
It seems that GW's  "official" painting style is purely dogmatic and focused on technique, with the miniature itself, or what it is meant to represent given seemingly no thought or attention. It seems to be just: select surface to paint, select colour, start standard painting routine, select next surface, next colour, apply routine again, repeat until all surfaces have been processed. Grab next figure, select surface, etc.... Pure assembly line.
(Hardly surprising, seeing the sheer avalanche of releases GW puts out, the painters simply don't have time go give each mini proper attention or immerse themselves in the subject at hand.)
And, judging by a segment of modern sculpts, the same goes for the sculptors.
Such a shame, and waste of a perfectly good setting, IP and visual style.

This is my issue with airbrushes.there are amazing things you can do with an airbrush, really amazing things, but all i see if base coat , highlight, template, neon highlights.
rinse and repeat.

Remember tho that the early eavy metal painters were punk art students, their experience of painting was from an artistic background and so they used artistic techniques which on a small scale produce great effects that look messy but full of character.now most miniature painters learned to paint using miniatures , and the best painters normally paint the more "boutique" miniatures which were made as a reaction against the punky dirty style of gw. it's sort of like art history in reverse, or like art ANCIENT history being played out in miniature.
one thing that always bugged me with the sculpts was that they were cluttered, but not detailed.take the metal space marine heroes from a few years ago, lots of stuff on them but very little striking detail and no really big surfaces to  play with.


i never followed the painting guides in white dwarf because they weren't my color schemes and i couldn't afford all the paints, so i used the fine art techniques my dad taught me which i later developed on miniatures and then used in my own fine art studied, and am now bringing back to miniatures.

do they fit the ultra neat cartoony realistic look that has become standard? no.
are they fun to do and full of character? they are to me, and that makes them great.

i may never play a game of 40k again, but i my build a punk gothic troupe of actors with guns living on a floating tank stage, and whilst i wont have made everything look like it came out of the box pre painted, il love how they look when they're done, and if you ask me that's when we need more of, willingness to be out their and have armies with character.


(sorry is this is all getting a little non sensicle to anyone who isn't familiar with my stream of consciousnesses ranting  :D.)
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Cubs on March 13, 2014, 10:02:13 AM
It seems that GW's  "official" painting style is purely dogmatic and focused on technique ...

Definitely. I judge that their focus is about making sure each painter adheres to the 'Eavy Metal style of process, such that a consistent and uniform standard and style is produced, no matter who the individual is. It does fit with their company ethos of micro-management and corporate identity and thus flair and artistry is lost in the name of identical processing.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: pixelgeek on March 13, 2014, 02:37:44 PM
Flair and artistry are also lost in the photography process. A lot of detail is just not seen in photographs unless you are specifically shooting to show it. Even back when Mike McVey was at GW they painted specifically for photographing the models and I suspect that the intervening years have just codified that process.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Cubs on March 13, 2014, 04:48:12 PM
I can kind of see where they're coming from, if they have identified a specific style as being the one they want to get the response they're after.

It's a bit like McDonalds. It doesn't matter which McDonalds you go into, wherever it is in the world, you know exactly what you're going to get. It ain't good for you and it's not exceptional quality, but it is strangely reassuring.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: pixelgeek on March 13, 2014, 04:53:58 PM
I can kind of see where they're coming from, if they have identified a specific style as being the one they want to get the response they're after.

I had the pleasure of being able to see some of the Privateer Press catalogue models once and some of the figures had detail on them (the Khador jacks especially) that just disappears in the photos. Total waste of time to do it if you are going to paint the model for a catalogue or print piece. I was there to do an interview with Mike McVey and when I mentioned that to him he talked about GW and how they painted specifically for print. Models that might not be the best paint job or even what the painter wanted to do but was done to feature the models and make them look good in print.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: nic-e on March 13, 2014, 06:14:31 PM
I had the pleasure of being able to see some of the Privateer Press catalogue models once and some of the figures had detail on them (the Khador jacks especially) that just disappears in the photos. Total waste of time to do it if you are going to paint the model for a catalogue or print piece. I was there to do an interview with Mike McVey and when I mentioned that to him he talked about GW and how they painted specifically for print. Models that might not be the best paint job or even what the painter wanted to do but was done to feature the models and make them look good in print.

I need to track down the penny arcade comic about mcvey and how he painted around white dwarf deadlines.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Vermis on March 14, 2014, 07:12:19 PM
Richard 'one fat lardy' Clarke's column in Wargames: Soldiers and Strategy mentions that he thinks the move to skirmish games with 10-20-30 minis a side is largely down to GW's games and starter sets.

I like your column Rich, but:

 lol lol lol
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: nic-e on March 14, 2014, 07:13:35 PM
Richard 'one fat lardy' Clarke's column in Wargames: Soldiers and Strategy mentions that he thinks the move to skirmish games with 10-20-30 minis a side is largely down to GW's games and starter sets.

I like your column Rich, but:

 lol lol lol

anyway you can share the article for those of us out of touch with print media? :)
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: pixelgeek on March 14, 2014, 07:37:31 PM
Richard 'one fat lardy' Clarke's column in Wargames: Soldiers and Strategy mentions that he thinks the move to skirmish games with 10-20-30 minis a side is largely down to GW's games and starter sets.

I like your column Rich, but:

 lol lol lol

And yet when Warlord but out a starter for Bolt Action with that number of figures it sold well...
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: carlos13th on March 14, 2014, 10:37:21 PM
I need to track down the penny arcade comic about mcvey and how he painted around white dwarf deadlines.

Would very much like to see that if you find it.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Vermis on March 15, 2014, 01:47:15 AM
Pixelgeek: I have a feeling one of us is misunderstanding, but I'm not sure who it is...

Nic-e: I can't share, but Karwansaray (http://www.karwansaraypublishers.com/cms/karwansaray/ws-s/latest-issue.html) can.  :P

It was a bit about the middle of the column that made me double-take. Started out with the usual stuff about how kids are getting into gaming via GW these days, rather than Don Featherstone et al. Segued into a couple of paragraphs about how skirmish and platoon games are becoming more popular, and the first ended with this line:

Quote
The fact that this new breed of smaller games mirrors the force-sizes typical of entry-level sets for 40K cannot be coincidence.

From what disgruntled GW gamer complaints I see, some of the problems with the modern game are: starter set compositions are unbalanced and usually 'illegal' under codex rules; you can play 40K with 20-30 minis (I think the <10 Rich mentioned for skirmish gangs is less feasible) but it's far from optimal (for 40K, that is ;D ); and GW have been slowly inflating the army sizes of their core games for years, to the point they're apparently trying to introduce Apocalypse rules and mechanisms into the main game, and people are leaving in droves in the face of the amount of overpriced plastic they'd have to buy.

So yeah, Richard, I'd say it is a coincidence. ;D

(After the 'GW is promoting tiny games' bit [still can't believe he thinks it] he went on to grumble about ex-GWers expecting or rewarding historical games that mirror 40K mechanisms rather than historical facts or tactics. Sounded like a bit of a get-off-my-lawn moment but I don't really disagree with him. It's a topic for another thread, but while he didn't even hint at any of these...'mistorical' games, for some reason my mind went to Bolt Action and the magazine's ad for it's rival, TFL's Chain of Command. ['The game one reviewer called "the last word in WWII wargaming"'])
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: pixelgeek on March 15, 2014, 02:37:22 AM
After the 'GW is promoting tiny games' bit [still can't believe he thinks it...

Without having the whole article to read, it appears that he isn't commenting on the validity of the forces in the sets just the size of the sets.

But really without the whole article its probably not fair to comment
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: YPU on March 15, 2014, 11:13:35 AM
(After the 'GW is promoting tiny games' bit [still can't believe he thinks it] he went on to grumble about ex-GWers expecting or rewarding historical games that mirror 40K mechanisms rather than historical facts or tactics. Sounded like a bit of a get-off-my-lawn moment but I don't really disagree with him. It's a topic for another thread, but while he didn't even hint at any of these...'mistorical' games, for some reason my mind went to Bolt Action and the magazine's ad for it's rival, TFL's Chain of Command. ['The game one reviewer called "the last word in WWII wargaming"'])

The whole idea is strange to me, I just don't see your regular warhammer player who decides to switch systems jump onto WWII games all that quickly. I mean I can appreciate both but something like say warmachine would be a lot more likely to charm these ex-gw player right? Heck I know it did for me for while back when.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Cubs on March 15, 2014, 11:41:15 AM
I read the article too and it jarred with me. I put it down to a more historical approach, with him talking about the 'Old School' wargames, in majestic Napoleonic style, with huge colourful blocks of troops, compared to the earlier days of Warhammer and Rogue Trader with a smattering of disparate models forming your 'army' and having a bash about.

It's a little before my time really since I certainly was playing 1st Edition Warhammer in the early eighties, but didn't play any historical games (apart from the 'all your toys' bashes my brothers and I used to play on the dining room table) to compare it to.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: nic-e on March 15, 2014, 11:54:52 AM
Quote from: Cubs
A little before my time really since I certainly was playing 1st Edition Warhammer in the early eighties, but didn't play any historical games (apart from the 'all your toys' bashes my brothers and I used to play on the dining room table) to compare it to.

I think that's called apocalypse now ;D
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Vermis on March 15, 2014, 01:00:14 PM
Nic-e: nah, I think that's the one with Marlon Brando in it. :P

Without having the whole article to read, it appears that he isn't commenting on the validity of the forces in the sets just the size of the sets.

Apart from the direct quote about just why he thinks skirmish games are more popular, which leads to the bit about GW in general, de-embiggening games. It does sound as if 'kids these days' just need an Assault on Black Reach or Dark Vengeance to be perfectly content with 40K, which is something I have trouble imagining.
I have to agree with Cubs: it's as if he cast a jaundiced eye over Rogue Trader once or twice, then assumed that the game had basically the same scope for the last 2-3 decades.

YPU: warmahordes does seem to be 40K's main rival these days (depends just how high the position of 'first loser' elevates you in this specific little world). Although I've been keeping an eye on a Warseer post-GW suggestion topic, and Bolt Action is not an uncommon name on it.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Cubs on March 15, 2014, 01:23:46 PM
Nic-e: nah, I think that's the one with Marlon Brando in it. :P

Mind the oranges, Marlon!

I think that's called apocalypse now ;D

Those games were pure ace. I don't know if it's down to nostalgia or just the sight of Esci's Roman and Greek ranges (what do you mean they're not accurate?) galloping down onto Airfix's Washington's Army.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: nic-e on March 16, 2014, 09:36:36 PM
looks like we aren't the only ones who think the taurox is a tad silly ... ;)
(http://i1350.photobucket.com/albums/p771/Nic-e2/mantic11_zps8757e791.jpg)
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: YPU on March 16, 2014, 10:37:18 PM
looks like we aren't the only ones who think the taurox is a tad silly ... ;)
Missed that, worth a laugh.  :D
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: weismonsters on March 16, 2014, 10:52:29 PM
 lol lol lol
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: YPU on March 16, 2014, 11:25:18 PM
I've been thinking, doesn't GW Make most of its big kits multi-purpose these days? A lot of models "either make the blood dripper gore shade painter or the extremely grim power pike stabber" Maybe the taurox is the weaker of 2 options? I can definitely see it as being the "o shit we need another build option" basterd child of something a tad better looking.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: nic-e on March 16, 2014, 11:32:12 PM
I've been thinking, doesn't GW Make most of its big kits multi-purpose these days? A lot of models "either make the blood dripper gore shade painter or the extremely grim power pike stabber" Maybe the taurox is the weaker of 2 options? I can definitely see it as being the "o shit we need another build option" basterd child of something a tad better looking.

Holding out for grav engines.........
:D probably an apc version an a heavy gunner version.i imagine the tracks are in both versions.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: YPU on March 16, 2014, 11:38:09 PM
Holding out for grav engines.........
:D probably an apc version an a heavy gunner version.i imagine the tracks are in both versions.
They look look like a very separate component. Its not that I am hoping they "save" this in some way, I just have a hard time believing that model. Even the angle of the tracks appears infuriatingly stupid, that's never going to get you over any obstacle...
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: nic-e on March 17, 2014, 12:03:47 AM
They look look like a very separate component. Its not that I am hoping they "save" this in some way, I just have a hard time believing that model. Even the angle of the tracks appears infuriatingly stupid, that's never going to get you over any obstacle...

so Goethe the age old mantra "don't expect realism in 40k".

even wheels will not make me like it. only with grav engines can it toe that perfect line between awesome and stupid that 40k exists in.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: beefcake on March 17, 2014, 06:11:48 AM
(apart from the 'all your toys' bashes my brothers and I used to play on the dining room table) to compare it to.

Me and my brother used to do that too. I don't think we ever finished a game though. Turns took so long!
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: nic-e on March 17, 2014, 10:08:47 PM
Me and my brother used to do that too. I don't think we ever finished a game though. Turns took so long!

still sounds like apocalypse.....
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Predatorpt on March 18, 2014, 01:55:41 AM
Some good points about the Imperial Knight helmets... lol lol

(http://i270.photobucket.com/albums/jj93/predatorpt/Forums/7fqAPCT_zps8b6f39ef.jpg)
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: beefcake on March 18, 2014, 06:13:03 AM
still sounds like apocalypse.....
Lol only difference is there were never any big vehicles etc that took up half the gaming space that you needed a forklift license to manoeuvre.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: nic-e on March 20, 2014, 08:24:02 PM
Lol only difference is there were never any big vehicles etc that took up half the gaming space that you needed a forklift license to manoeuvre.

I like to call that wallhammer, because once you've blown the crap out of each others infantry it just becomes two walls shooting at each other :)
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Momotaro on March 23, 2014, 12:46:59 PM
New Hobbit releases out.  Beorn in bear-form adds new meaning to the word "turd".  Disco Thranduil to add to the "Monkey Twins".

Gundabad Orcs - another fiecast-only army.  Basic force looks like it will set you back £210 for 36 troops and 3 characters.  *Sigh* was it only three or four years ago that you could get 40 plastic Uruk-hai for £30 (even they're £54 now...)?

Also, they're doing 1-click collections.  The Rohan one (mix of metal and plastic) has 28 infantry (18 troops + 10 characters) and 9 cavalry (6 troops + 3 characters) for... £140.  Again, the old Rohan plastic army deal was 48 infantry + 18 cavalry for £50 :(

Best not to talk about the Hunter Orc deal - 27 infantry and 14 cavalry for £152  ;D
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Too Bo Coo on March 23, 2014, 12:53:32 PM
New Hobbit releases out.  Beorn in bear-form adds new meaning to the word "turd".  Disco Thranduil to add to the "Monkey Twins".

Gundabad Orcs - another fiecast-only army.  Basic force looks like it will set you back £210 for 36 troops and 3 characters.  *Sigh* was it only three or four years ago that you could get 40 plastic Uruk-hai for £30 (even they're £54 now...)?

Also, they're doing 1-click collections.  The Rohan one (mix of metal and plastic) has 28 infantry (18 troops + 10 characters) and 9 cavalry (6 troops + 3 characters) for... £140.  Again, the old Rohan plastic army deal was 48 infantry + 18 cavalry for £50 :(

Best not to talk about the Hunter Orc deal - 27 infantry and 14 cavalry for £152  ;D


To paraquote Ronald Reagan, "I did not leave Games Workshop, Games Workshop left me."  I would have loved to do a LOTR SAGA project, but with these costs I could do 2 if not 3 historical forces or even GoT forces for the cost of one in LOTR.  Needless to say, I burn with jealousy over the mates that managed to get in on this ground floor! I hope you all excuse my French, but F Games Workshop.  Stupid expensive for no real reason but to wring cash from hobbyists!
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: YPU on March 23, 2014, 12:55:47 PM
Sales of LOTR models bombed here and there, so its often quite easy to find them at pretty deep discounts. War of the ring plays pretty well and I'm kind of sad I sold on all of the LotR stuff I got wholesale from toy stores around here. I should have kept a army or two so that I could play that game. Still might be possible to pick up a force on the cheap.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Too Bo Coo on March 23, 2014, 01:09:23 PM
Sales of LOTR models bombed here and there, so its often quite easy to find them at pretty deep discounts. War of the ring plays pretty well and I'm kind of sad I sold on all of the LotR stuff I got wholesale from toy stores around here. I should have kept a army or two so that I could play that game. Still might be possible to pick up a force on the cheap.

Cheers Mate!  Sadly I havent seen any deals...  Jammer :(  I look on evilbay once in a while, but then again, I have a TON of historical SAGA stuff now.  But since I have a bunch of extra figs, I may do a couple of small GoT forces in the future.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: YPU on March 23, 2014, 01:13:21 PM
Cheers Mate!  Sadly I havent seen any deals...  Jammer :(  I look on evilbay once in a while, but then again, I have a TON of historical SAGA stuff now.  But since I have a bunch of extra figs, I may do a couple of small GoT forces in the future.
yea the time for the best deals have passed. I might actually have a few boxes left over somewhere. Need to check next time I'm at my parents place.
You might be better of checking marktplaats for lord of the rings figuurtjes. decent deals pop up now and again.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Gibby on March 23, 2014, 01:17:48 PM
What a load of rubbish those new releases are! Insanely expensive, shitecast, and hardly anything anyway. Self fulfilling abject failure prophecy. It must be entirely intentional - realise The Hobbit has been nowhere near as popular as the Lord of the Rings, so do the bare minimum for the license agreement and then cover your ears and go "LALALALA". Typical GW, they have by far left me behind this last couple of years - I was clinging on through love of the backgrounds until now.

What the hell kind of pose is Thranduil in? Is he about to begin a dance routine?
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: nic-e on March 23, 2014, 11:26:13 PM
Still holding out for a smaug model but i know for a fact it'll never come and if it does it'll be finecast and deformed.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Too Bo Coo on March 23, 2014, 11:37:36 PM
Still holding out for a smaug model but i know for a fact it'll never come and if it does it'll be finecast and deformed.

I plan to use the Otherworld red dragon as Smaug :D
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: nic-e on March 23, 2014, 11:47:09 PM
I plan on using a cardboard cutout hanging from the ceiling so its shadow covers the tabletop.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: OSHIROmodels on March 24, 2014, 07:24:19 AM
Tempted to get me a Knight as I love the originals  8)

Apart from the one on tracks  :-X Looked like a crap K9

cheers

James
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Hammers on March 24, 2014, 02:40:03 PM
Disco Thranduil to add to the "Monkey Twins".

 lol Spot on.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: carlos13th on March 24, 2014, 03:57:28 PM
Tempted to get me a Knight as I love the originals  8)

Apart from the one on tracks  :-X Looked like a crap K9

cheers

James

I quite like the new knights models, not for the asking price though,
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Timbor on March 24, 2014, 04:21:18 PM
Man, the bear-shaped Beorn is absolutely horrible... More like a deformed gorilla than a bear.  A real miss that one, regardless of what the price is.  It seems like the paintjobs for the hobbit stuff are intentionally crappy as well
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Dr Mathias on March 24, 2014, 05:11:00 PM
Is there a US Games Day anymore?

I'm thinking I need to try for a Golden Demon at least once in my life. I can't seem to find any details on the event, if they still have it, and what categories there are.

Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: carlos13th on March 24, 2014, 06:02:01 PM
The bear looks like a miniature of a man in a bear costume.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: nic-e on March 24, 2014, 09:12:41 PM
The bear looks like a miniature of a man in a bear costume.

"cast in high quality finecast resin, games workshops new collection shows you the making of the hobbit, including the motion capture foam on a stick trolls, the extras having a fag break, and a man covered in a rag showing you how a giant bear should sound."
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Too Bo Coo on March 25, 2014, 02:19:21 PM
Thoughts?
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Argonor on March 25, 2014, 02:44:49 PM
Nice freehand!
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Too Bo Coo on March 25, 2014, 02:49:56 PM
Let me clarify, this is not my work, it's from Dakka Dakka but I thought it was so cool I wanted to share. 
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: YPU on March 25, 2014, 06:43:35 PM
Kids these days painting dicks on the sides of their landraiders...
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Dr. Zombie on March 25, 2014, 07:04:59 PM
Thank you for pointing that out! Now that is all I see. o_o
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: OSHIROmodels on March 25, 2014, 07:07:15 PM
 lol

Shit camo though (unless you're in the Sistine Chapel  ;D ).

Very well done though and over the armour joints must have been a sod to do  8) 8)

cheers

James
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Blue in vt on March 25, 2014, 07:10:20 PM
lol

Shit camo though (unless you're in the Sistine Chapel  ;D ).

Very well done though and over the armour joints must have been a sod to do  8) 8)

cheers

James

haha...Maybe its the inquisition!

No one expects the Spanish Inquisition!  Hiding in plain site at the top of the Sistine chapel!

haha  lol

Blue
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Westfalia Chris on March 25, 2014, 08:28:02 PM
Kids these days painting dicks on the sides of their landraiders...

Considering the amount and frequency of dick moves displayed by the company and its tournament scene alike, it only seems appropriate.

On a more serious note, well done, although I am not really a fan of this kind of decoration - more for geometrical patterns, but then again, my favourite period is the Heresy (or alternatively a more Space-operatic, less "gothic" look for M40) - the less mobile churches, the better.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: OSHIROmodels on March 25, 2014, 08:42:40 PM
On a different note, I heard via Twitter that GW have given up/stopped all their social media connections. Haven't bothered to check though  ;D

cheers

James
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Predatorpt on March 25, 2014, 09:00:51 PM
On a different note, I heard via Twitter that GW have given up/stopped all their social media connections. Haven't bothered to check though  ;D

cheers

James

Yep, it's true:

Quote
Games Workshop has not had much loving for Social Media for a while. A little over a year ago, they shut down their “main” Facebook page, though pages for individual Games Workshop stores, as well as sub-groups such as Black Library or Forge World remained.

Now those have been axed as well, along with Twitter Accounts and other Social Media channels GW has been using.

https://www.facebook.com/forgeworldUK
https://www.facebook.com/GamesWorkshopDigitalEditions‎
https://www.facebook.com/blacklibrary
https://twitter.com/blacklibrary
etc..
All gone!

Why?

I have no idea.

from: http://pinsofwar.com/games-workshop-leaves-facebook/

And as far as I can see, it's true. None of the pages work anymore.

Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Argonor on March 25, 2014, 09:04:28 PM
I'm surprised they actually had those - quite a few years ago they closed their own forum to avoid negative feedback.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Dolmot on March 25, 2014, 09:09:37 PM
GW Fulchester (https://www.facebook.com/GWFulchester) is still up.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Modhail on March 25, 2014, 09:13:46 PM
Hmmm, I can guess at the reasoning: Social media take employee effort (and thus cost the company money), but you can't sell anything on them. To the beancounters, they are an investment without return (as you can't monetize customer involvement and goodwill, they seem to think?!?) and are thus to be axed.
[sarcasm]Even worse, they involve actual, like, interactment and stuff with those walking wallets called customers, and you have to pretend they're just like actual humans as you do so....
Plus, they are part of the internets and the internets are evil, you see, they show our domesticated wallets where they can get our stuff for less money then we want from them, and even *gasp* tell them there are other games to spend their...our money on.[/sarcasm]
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Dr Mathias on March 25, 2014, 09:15:37 PM
Games Workshop does some really, really odd things in an age of digital marketing. I thought the Digital Editions FB page was well run and actually somewhat informative, at least when I was following the Sororitas release.

Can anyone think of other brands that totally avoid marketing/advertising in anything other than a house organ or their own website?

Hell, even Defiance Games has an FB page  lol

Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Momotaro on March 25, 2014, 09:21:25 PM
Hell, even Defiance Games has an FB page  lol

That's ALL they have, mind you...
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Dr Mathias on March 25, 2014, 09:25:45 PM
That's ALL they have, mind you...

Right, and I'm certain it's hurting them more than helping :)
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Vermis on March 26, 2014, 12:48:10 AM
Kids these days painting dicks on the sides of their landraiders...

Well that's just not fair. The Emperor did unite humanity against the witch and the xenos scum, you know.

Though considering some of the brown shapes I see surrounding that central figure, I can't tell if it's primarchs or a biting mockery in the fitting vein of the Emperor's Children.

(on a momentarily serious note, looks decent)
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: weismonsters on March 26, 2014, 02:07:54 AM
Presumably the problem they have with facebook is that the customer can actually write stuff on it (?)
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: pixelgeek on March 26, 2014, 02:47:21 AM
Can anyone think of other brands that totally avoid marketing/advertising in anything other than a house organ or their own website?

I can't think of any but I am also at a loss to think of any company that is working at cross purposes to their customers. The internet has been nothing but a funnel that people have used to heap shit on the company (for mostly legitimate reasons) and it can't really make any sense to engage customers when most of what you do is try to strong-arm them away from their money
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: pixelgeek on March 26, 2014, 02:48:13 AM
Presumably the problem they have with facebook is that the customer can actually write stuff on it (?)

Well they shut down their own forums over which they had total control so I can't imagine that Facebook and Twitter were much fun for them
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: nic-e on March 26, 2014, 09:16:18 PM
Rumours over on bols that the new modular terrain kit is a "promethium" pipelube.same style as the modular trenches and new craters. Looks like the terrain that got taken off the side isn't coming back.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Hammers on March 26, 2014, 09:29:52 PM
lol

Shit camo though (unless you're in the Sistine Chapel  ;D ).

Very well done though and over the armour joints must have been a sod to do  8) 8)

cheers

James

Well, you know... 40K tanks always seem to be emerging from some kind of Gothic cathedral...
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Cubs on March 29, 2014, 01:40:03 PM
To the beancounters, they are an investment without return

The idea of companies being run by accountants leaves me shaking my head, as much as the idea of companies being run by dreamers and artists. A successful company should be a blend of a spectrum of individual roles combining to make a whole. You can't just yank some cogs out of the machine and still expect it to run as successfully.

Honest feedback is invaluable to a company and through social media you get it in spades, for free. Marketting reports cost tens of thousands for a large company, and only give you a single snapshot of a targetted group. Compare that to a continual stream of reports from a broad range of people who care enough to want you to change. To me it's a no-brainer, so long as you've got the globes to accept criticism and be honest with people.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: nic-e on March 29, 2014, 06:01:09 PM
new guard (stormtroopers mini army pre release? ) just dropped.taurox is actually pretty nice , but it still needs grav engines.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Archie on March 31, 2014, 09:48:17 PM
I fail to understand how a company that either sells toys, niche hobby items or collectables (depending on your view) can be so divorced from what its customers want? I'm self employed and I have a twitter stream and an active blog! How can GW not see the obvious benefits of social media for its type of company?  :o
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: nic-e on March 31, 2014, 10:25:02 PM
I fail to understand how a company that either sells toys, niche hobby items or collectables (depending on your view) can be so divorced from what its customers want? I'm self employed and I have a twitter stream and an active blog! How can GW not see the obvious benefits of social media for its type of company?  :o

Well they did just hire a new pr guy (james hewitt i think) so maybe...JUST MAYBE ..they're prepping for something big.there have been rumors of forgeworld being sold in stores, we've seen the new plans for warhammer world including a forgeworld and bl store, so maybe they will roll out a whole new social media machine to go with it.
Who knows , they may even open up a new forum?!
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: pixelgeek on March 31, 2014, 11:59:02 PM
I fail to understand how a company that either sells toys, niche hobby items or collectables (depending on your view) can be so divorced from what its customers want? I'm self employed and I have a twitter stream and an active blog! How can GW not see the obvious benefits of social media for its type of company?  :o

Because we aren't looking at it the way they are. These social initiatives simply open them up to criticism from their customers and lead to Facebook pages and Twitter feeds filled with negative comments.

Why would they want to continue that?
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Too Bo Coo on April 01, 2014, 10:01:03 AM
Because we aren't looking at it the way they are. These social initiatives simply open them up to criticism from their customers and lead to Facebook pages and Twitter feeds filled with negative comments.

Why would they want to continue that?

Because the Emperor has no Clothes.  The problem for GW is not the negative feedback, that is a symptom.  In a healthcare sense, it's like cutting off contact with your doctors because they are telling you that your personal habits are leading you to cancer.  The cancer is still coming.  But this is really telling as to the state of GW corporate culture.  My guess is that if you dont drink the Kool Aide at GW you dont last very long.  And in these types of corporate environments, truth and honest feedback are not in any way encouraged.  MAJOR fail for GW not merely as a company but at least in an American sense, as a Human Being.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Vermis on April 01, 2014, 12:04:00 PM
My guess is that if you dont drink the Kool Aide at GW you dont last very long.  And in these types of corporate environments, truth and honest feedback are not in any way encouraged.

Going by what I've heard from ex-staff, business folk, and job descriptions (looking for people with the right attitude rather than anything else) your guess isn't terribly inaccurate.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: carlos13th on April 01, 2014, 12:33:47 PM
I think GW thinks that people only complain about GW because they hear others complaint about GW so the more they prevent any kind of complaints on anything officially tied to GW the more satisfied their customers will be. It's completely ass backwards but there we go.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: nic-e on April 01, 2014, 01:09:44 PM
Going by what I've heard from ex-staff, business folk, and job descriptions (looking for people with the right attitude rather than anything else) your guess isn't terribly inaccurate.
I know a couple of people who went for interviews for store jobs and got told they didn't try and sell enough and were too customers centric. I also know a couple of ex managers of stores who aren't really hobbyist but are just career management types.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Too Bo Coo on April 01, 2014, 01:51:36 PM
I know a couple of people who went for interviews for store jobs and got told they didn't try and sell enough and were too customers centric. I also know a couple of ex managers of stores who aren't really hobbyist but are just career management types.

I think hobbyists would not be very happy, it's just a very pushy environment.  By the third time I told my local GW guy that I was only there for primer, he left me alone.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Too Bo Coo on April 01, 2014, 01:53:34 PM
Going by what I've heard from ex-staff, business folk, and job descriptions (looking for people with the right attitude rather than anything else) your guess isn't terribly inaccurate.

It's a very American attitude, I've worked for a couple of places like this in the States.  It's not fine any more to just come to work and do a good job, now you have to LOVE the company and whatever widgets they're peddling.  That's why I went back to higher ed to work.  Yeah, there's BS here too, but there is a decided lack of 'small mindedness'...mostly. :D
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Cubs on April 01, 2014, 03:33:20 PM
  It's not fine any more to just come to work and do a good job, now you have to LOVE the company and whatever widgets they're peddling. 

The successful companies realise that you inspire loyalty in your staff by, let's say, running the company in an ethical manner that concentrates on absolute excellence for the customer. The ones who don't quite get it, just try to force loyalty with threats and then look confused when the best employees go and work elsewhere.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: OSHIROmodels on April 01, 2014, 05:59:08 PM
I used to work in GW St Albans many years ago and had to sit through the 'If you don't recognise someone, go and talk to them' and 'try and sell two core boxes today' spiel. Utter bollocks  :-X

One weekend, the manager was away so it was myself and a younger (but had more experience) staff member in. It was quiet so I was on the till and the other lad was gaming. This bloke walks in (about 30 years old), went straight to the back, looked up at the Warhammer boxed set, came over to me and said 'Could you get that down for me please'. I did, he brought it tio the till and I ran it through. I didn't ask him any stupid fucking questions, just kept it polite and he walked out. The younger lad came over and said 'That's great, you've sold a core box set!', I told him that the bloke walked straight in and purchased it without any help from me (apart from getting it from the shelf) but he was very insistant.

It still baffles me to this day that the young tit couldn't figure out that the purchaser knew what he wanted form the get go  o_o

I can't stand it when someone pushes me when I walk into a shop. If I need help I'll bloody well ask for it  :-[

cheers

James
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Too Bo Coo on April 01, 2014, 06:15:40 PM


I can't stand it when someone pushes me when I walk into a shop. If I need help I'll bloody well ask for it  :-[

cheers

James

Hear hear!
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Cubs on April 01, 2014, 06:34:03 PM
... sell two core boxes today ...

In my experience actual 'selling' at the point of purchase is of minimal effect. At branch level, you need to keep the shelves full, keep the shop clean and make sure everything is priced up and available. Get that right and the rest is gravy. A pushy staff member is worse than a disinterested one for making the customer walk away.

Beyond branch level, it's about getting the right stock into the stores at the right time with the right marketting and giving your managers a suitable budget to keep the staff levels reasonable.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Mason on April 01, 2014, 06:51:38 PM
I can't stand it when someone pushes me when I walk into a shop. If I need help I'll bloody well ask for it  :-[

Me too, mate, but my missus says I remind her of Victor Meldrew when I get tetchy about it.....be warned!*
 :D





*You too could become a grumpy, tetchy, miserable git like me, one day..... ::)
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Damas on April 01, 2014, 10:05:20 PM
You too could become a grumpy, tetchy, miserable git like me, one day....
:D
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: beefcake on April 01, 2014, 11:20:04 PM
I for one am quite an introverted person when it comes to new people/striking up conversations with staff etc. I'm probably not the only one out there (I amuse myself by painting and playing with little metal men  lol ) The last thing I want in a hobby store is someone trying to sell me something I don't want. Yes be polite and ask me how my day is going, no don't tell me what I need, I know how much money I have, I know how what I want.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Connectamabob on April 02, 2014, 01:23:08 AM
The thing I hate most is when you get one who thinks he's being friendly by calling you by your first name, when you've never told him your name. Like, he spots it on an order form or gets a peek when you take out your card to pay or something, and then just randomly chucks it into a sentence somewhere.

Protip: that's not "friendly"; it's jarring and creepy, and makes you seem like some kind of alien robot half-assedly trying to blend in with the humans.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Grimmnar on April 02, 2014, 05:13:06 AM
I can't stand it when someone pushes me when I walk into a shop. If I need help I'll bloody well ask for it  :-[

James
Hear hear!

Well see you cant just say that. I mean i get it and agree, but i have been in retail for 15 years now and seen all the tricks and training. I do agree for me though if i need something i will ask. I do however do like a greeting when i walk in. But as i work retail i take too many complaints weekly from customers that say no one bothers to greet or ask if they needed help or whatnot. In this manner you cant win.
In GW's ways that have been expressed before the above quoted comments i have seen first hand. Where it was when i worked for the company at the HQ in the mid-late 90's which included interviews to work in the retail stores to when i walked in said retail stores after i stopped working for them.
But bad customer service training and interactions as we all know are not alone in GW's mantra. Hell my company has its issues and i wish they would get off their asses so they can remove their heads and get back to basics and that is selling to the customer what the customer wants or may want.
Might be why i am trying to leave retail.

Grimm
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Mr. Peabody on April 02, 2014, 05:27:30 AM
I do however do like a greeting when I walk in.
A greeting and knowledgeable, available staff. It's so simple really.

Cubs, you are spot on about the point of purchase being a bit late for the actual sales pitch. If I make it to a brick and mortar store, I know why I'm there. I may need or want some advice about options.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Connectamabob on April 02, 2014, 06:54:45 AM
Well see you cant just say that. I mean i get it and agree, but i have been in retail for 15 years now and seen all the tricks and training. I do agree for me though if i need something i will ask. I do however do like a greeting when i walk in. But as i work retail i take too many complaints weekly from customers that say no one bothers to greet or ask if they needed help or whatnot. In this manner you cant win.

I don't think anyone objects to the "welcome to the shop, can I help you find anything?" type of interaction. It's aggressive and persistent used car salesman-like "upselling" behavior that annoys people.

Most of the time I try not to hold it against the worker. In the majority of cases they're being forced at pink-slip point to do that by the higher-ups, and it's every bit as awkward and humiliating for them as it is aggravating for you. Here in the US at least, many retail companies that do this have specific scripts and/or checklists of stuff a worker is required to say to each and every customer.

I've worked for two such companies, and although they were on the mild end of such behavior, it was still kind of mind bending what the... "people" who wrote those requirement thought passed for human interaction. It was like they were written by space aliens who's only knowledge of human speech came from watching TV commercials. Not a human who's only knowledge came from commercials: an alien. I cannot fathom the utter grey void of social skills and creativity that must have been the mind of the person who wrote that stuff. And then multiple other someones had to look at it and go "yup: seems legit" before it got passed down to the actual stores.

My time in retail taught me a lot of... interesting things about the sort of minds our retail and corporate culture self-selects for it's middle and upper management. I hope I never have to go back, because the whole thing is like a tapestry of "one more cigarette butt on the beach isn't hurting anyone" inethics and Wile E. Coyote clueless ambition.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Constable Bertrand on April 02, 2014, 09:14:29 AM
I for one am quite an introverted person when it comes to new people/striking up conversations with staff etc. I'm probably not the only one out there (I amuse myself by painting and playing with little metal men  lol )

lol
I refer to my hobby as "Little Men" to my missus, this website is called "The little men website"  lol

For a hobby so "nerdy", which caters to introverted individuals I am surprised at the over the top response of some black/red shirts. Don't they scare people away??? I know I feel a little like a Sand Person when ever I walk into a shop.* I know getting one pot of paint will turn into 3 paints and possibly primer, but a box of X miniatures is not on the cards, especially not the brand new super cool huge diorama mini that WD has featured, and I will not be getting the mag either. Im a little apprehensive as I walk in (and only partly because some one I know may see me walk in there ;) ). The other hobby shop 3 doors down has normal friendly people who don't want to upsell, but give the customer exactly what they want, and bend over to get in anything that is needed. That is what I want and need - oh and their prices are placed on this planet not Saturn. They even discount older products! :D :D

*"They are easily startled.." Ben Kenobi

Cheers
Matt
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: carlos13th on April 02, 2014, 09:22:40 AM
The GW store in Romford is pretty good. Every time I have been(Only 2 or three times) in there the guy has greeted me and asked if I needed any help. If I say no he says if you need anything just ask and leaves me to it. If I say yes he will give me whatever advice or help I need and help me find whatever I need to. He also just seems like a decent guy to shoot the shit with too. Doesn't feel like he is pressuring me constantly to buy stuff. When people pressure me to buy stuff it makes me instantly reluctant to buy anything and I am far more likley to either get exactly what I came for and leave without buying anything or grab what I need elsewhere.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Cubs on April 02, 2014, 09:25:05 AM
A greeting and knowledgeable, available staff. It's so simple really.

Cubs, you are spot on about the point of purchase being a bit late for the actual sales pitch. If I make it to a brick and mortar store, I know why I'm there. I may need or want some advice about options.

Yeah. I mean, the staff need to know helping the customer supersedes anything else they were doing and they need to be approachable. As said, a quick greeting and a smile doesn't hurt anyone. I always told my staff to keep a cleaning cloth in their pocket and to keep busy when there was nothing else to do. For some reason, customers are always more comfortable interrupting someone doing a menial task to ask questions than walking up to a statue at the till.

But if you've hired the right people and let them know what's expected, scripts and 'selling techniques' are out-dated and patronising. I always tried to underline the importance of honesty as well. Obviously you don't rubbish your own stock, but if a customer genuinely wants help, you lose in the long run by pushing an unsuitable product on them. Try to get a picture of what they're after and give a couple of likely options.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: carlos13th on April 02, 2014, 09:31:22 AM
I agree with not wanting to hold it against the worker. I know people who used to and still do work at game and they are pushed very hard to upsell. I don't blame the staff for it they need their jobs but any time I get one of those "Let us know how your shopping experience was" type of messages from Game I will complain about this kind of company policy. I will visit a store less if they act this way which is a shame as I enjoy going into game stores and looking around to see if something catches my eye and often don't mind paying a few quid extra to get the game there and then instead of in a few days (less so with miniatures as even if I got in then and there it wouldn't get painted then and there) but if you create a shop environment where I can wander in and look around without being pressured I will continue to visit and buy from there, even if I don't buy anything this time. Create an environment where I am made uncomfortable if I do not purchase anything there and I will visit less and buy less, also in a place with that environment I will have no problem seeing something I like there and going home to order it online instead.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Connectamabob on April 02, 2014, 10:07:30 AM
For some reason, customers are always more comfortable interrupting someone doing a menial task to ask questions than walking up to a statue at the till.

As one such customer myself, I can explain (for my part, at least). My logic is usually that unless I'm the only cat in the store, there's a fair chance that while he/she's helping me, another customer will come up to the counter ready to check out. At which point the customer is stuck waiting and wondering if the cashier will be with them in 30 seconds, or 15 minutes (or if the cashier's gone with me back out onto the floor, they're left wondering where the cashier's gone or if there even is a cashier at the moment). I've been that customer before, and while it's not a big deal, it can in it's more extreme cases be aggravating, so I don't want to do that to him/her.

On the worker's end, I figure if another customer comes up and the cashier's not there, he/she might get in trouble (depending on management's attitude and whether the other customer seeks them out), and if a customer comes up and the cashier's busy doing non-cashiering (and thus unpredictable in duration) things with me, the cashier is placed under tension between two different customers who he can't ignore. Again, I've been that cashier too, and it's only a big deal in extreme cases, but I'd still rather avoid causing any snarls.

I've had it happen where multiple people have come up at the same time, and immediately my help need becomes the proverbial old lady with 50 tins of cat food in the express isle. Thus I tend to treat the till as a dedicated job, and people working the floor (who are not already engaged with a customer) as flexible, since inanimate tasks like sweeping or stocking can be paused and resumed without causing a single-tier priority conflict.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: carlos13th on April 02, 2014, 11:59:37 AM
When I worked in retail if I was on the til and someone asked me for help I either had to answer them or point them in a direction of the item they needed or call someone over in order to take them to where they needed to go as I couldn't really leave the till for the most part, so its understandable that people would prefer to ask people on shop floor.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Modhail on April 02, 2014, 12:42:46 PM
You guys do realise we are currently putting more thought and consideration into proper customer approach/interaction than GW does?  ;D

Now I've never worked in retail myself but I did do a stint at telephone customer service, and can tell you they seek out a similar breed of miscreant to write their mandatory scripts.
Those asinine stock phrases that were either so convoluted you can never speak them sounding anything near natural or seem to have been tailor-made to make you sound and feel like the biggest tool possible. I can only imagine how bad it must be to have to say such things right in front of someone, with (an attempt at) a straight face.
Ever since that job I've been a lot more understanding of such impositions on a shop workers natural behaviour or actual retail skills. Mostly I try to see it as the regrettable ritual of modern commerce and kindly follow along the automated call and response routine before initiating meaningful/productive conversation. (Surprisingly most shop staff give rather clear cues that the ritual is over and you can now start interacting with a human being, once you know to look for them.)
 
There are a few things I still simply cannot abide when I go into a store though. Don't ignore me, or worse, hound me for a sale. Don't circle around me giving me hawkeyes, I'm not a shoplifter and dislike the surveillance. Don't give me the chummy "best friend" routine, especially if I've barely set my first five steps into the shop. And for the love of God, actually listen to my response when I answer your questions!!!  >:(
I've only once have had all these peeves triggered within a single visit to a shop. Guess which company that was...?
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Dr. Zombie on April 02, 2014, 02:23:58 PM
The GW store in Romford is pretty good. Every time I have been(Only 2 or three times) in there the guy has greeted me and asked if I needed any help. If I say no he says if you need anything just ask and leaves me to it. If I say yes he will give me whatever advice or help I need and help me find whatever I need to. He also just seems like a decent guy to shoot the shit with too. Doesn't feel like he is pressuring me constantly to buy stuff. When people pressure me to buy stuff it makes me instantly reluctant to buy anything and I am far more likley to either get exactly what I came for and leave without buying anything or grab what I need elsewhere.

This is perhaps a good example of the fact that there are good salespeople and bad ones. The problem GW stores (and manny others) is that they hire bad salepeople who have no clue as to how to interact with other people. And could just as easily be working at Mcdonalds. They are basically just managing the cash register and regurgitating a script.

The good salespeople out there are those that you don't even realise are selling you stuff. I have a local clothes shop where I often end up buying waay more than I intended. Even if I go in with the distinct intention of only buying socks I end up walking out with a shirt a belt and some pants. Because the guy who works there is really really good at his job. He knows his stock, and most importantly he knows how to read people. He is friendly and casual and he does not apply any preasure in his sales. Or he does it so gently that you do not notice.
And I keep comming back to that shop. Because the guy is really friendly and nice and even though i know I end up buying more than intendend it makes the whole proces of clothes shopping almost enjoyable. Normally I loathe clotes shopping.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: matthais-mouse on April 02, 2014, 04:30:02 PM
Protip: that's not "friendly"; it's jarring and creepy, and makes you seem like some kind of alien robot half-assedly trying to blend in with the humans.


Hahahahahahaha, I may have laughed too hard at that. I had that once and when I asked he said he read my mind, than said no i saw it on your order form. He was a bit creepy that manager.

As for their customer service they are too pushy for me so I just answer in riddles or something completely different until they wander off....
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Cubs on April 02, 2014, 05:10:36 PM
The problem GW stores (and manny others) is that they hire bad salepeople who have no clue as to how to interact with other people.

Well, they pay absolute peanuts. You're hired because you're a GW fan, not because you know what you're doing. If you do, it's a bonus. I don't think it's any surprise that the introduction of the minimum wage coincided with some brutal cutting of staff in stores.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: nic-e on April 02, 2014, 08:48:05 PM
Well, they pay absolute peanuts. You're hired because you're a GW fan, not because you know what you're doing. If you do, it's a bonus. I don't think it's any surprise that the introduction of the minimum wage coincided with some brutal cutting of staff in stores.

qft.
I earn more as minor admin staff in the nhs than some gw managers.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Cubs on April 02, 2014, 09:21:32 PM
Yeah, I enquired out of interest one time when they had a 'Manager Wanted' sign in the window of GW Cardiff. At the time I was a shop manager myself and was shocked to find I was on nearly 50% more than the salary they were offering ... some of my shop assistants were on more than the GW manager wage.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: nic-e on April 02, 2014, 09:54:01 PM
Yeah, I enquired out of interest one time when they had a 'Manager Wanted' sign in the window of GW Cardiff. At the time I was a shop manager myself and was shocked to find I was on nearly 50% more than the salary they were offering ... some of my shop assistants were on more than the GW manager wage.

it's a shame, because i've never had a bad experience with gw staff and i feel like alot of them really do go above and beyond their job to help make you feel welcome (including tea biscuits and birthday cake ).
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Archie on April 03, 2014, 11:10:53 PM
I've spent 14 years in the recruitment world first as a headhunter and more recently as a trainer. I am pretty well hardened to sales pitches and sale people (given I write them and train people to use them) but even I hesitate to go into GW stores because of the insistent questions and forced conversations.

I much prefer to buy from people on LAF!

GW really have the balance wrong although I am impressed that they are so consistently able to turn out trained staff who stick to the rules of engagement. Its just a shame their rules are really irritating!
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Predatorpt on April 10, 2014, 03:06:25 AM
The best way to explain the 40k fluff, in a minute and a half:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-MeVxKZBOfM
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: nic-e on April 10, 2014, 03:12:53 AM
btw, the website overhaul has begun with teasers of a new plastic mini.remake of a 1991 space marine captain. (apparently called an le4 captain, meaning he lives in the same post zone as me lol )

I'm thinking links forgeworld and black library (or direct sales) and SOME sort of customer input?even if it's just comments on the whats new today section.also going to take a guess at there being a place for articles and such on the new site.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: OSHIROmodels on April 10, 2014, 07:56:43 AM
Lots of grumbling on twitter about it...

I'm not really that bothered  ::) :D

cheers

James
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Mason on April 10, 2014, 08:36:36 AM
Lots of grumbling on twitter about it...

I'm not really that bothered  ::) :D

Twitter...?

Is that made in plastic or Finecast?

Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: OSHIROmodels on April 10, 2014, 08:39:51 AM
Twitter...?

Is that made in plastic or Finecast?



 lol Silly boy
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Too Bo Coo on April 10, 2014, 08:42:56 AM
Twitter...?

Is that made in plastic or Finecast?



LOL!  I had the same question Mate. :D
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Mason on April 10, 2014, 09:39:02 AM
LOL!  I had the same question Mate. :D

 lol

I also wonder if those in power at GW have considered send a C+D letter to Twitter telling them to stop using their IP.....

Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Too Bo Coo on April 10, 2014, 10:10:29 AM
lol

I also wonder if those in power at GW have considered send a C+D letter to Twitter telling them to stop using their IP.....



It would not surprise me....
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: OSHIROmodels on April 10, 2014, 10:25:34 AM
Well done GW, well done. All accounts have been deleted  o_o

What a strange thing to do...

cheers

James
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Too Bo Coo on April 10, 2014, 10:32:15 AM
Well done GW, well done. All accounts have been deleted  o_o

What a strange thing to do...

cheers

James

Pride comes before the fall....
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Modhail on April 10, 2014, 02:10:15 PM
You know, I've had a root round the new and "improved" website, and I'm quite underwhelmed. I'd thought they'd use the opportunity to finally fix that mess of a navigation system they used.... :?  Instead they replaced it with the same steaming pile of **** but with checkboxes added. I mean really, text based site navigation in this day and age? They should have looked at competitor's sites and bits-selling sites, they generally have a more pleasant navigation scheme. But I forget that those sites don't exist in the mind of GW.

I find the new visual style of the site rather barren and uninviting. Plus they killed off all remaining meaningful content (not least of all their FAQ and errata!), it's just a tool for shovelling product now...  :-X

Edit: Oh, this is just so...special. I just found this on their page showing off the limited edition Space Marine Skullfetishist:
Quote
With this offer, you will receive one free Space Marine Captain - Limited Edition, Web Exclusive miniature. If you cancel your qualifying order, or any part of it, you must return the free miniature to us at your cost
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Connectamabob on April 10, 2014, 02:46:26 PM
How could you cancel the qualifying order yet already have the mini in hand to return? Wouldn't they ship the free mini with the qualifying order? Wouldn't they have to ship the free mini days before the qualifying order was even placed in order for it to arrive in time for you to cancel the qualifying order before it shipped? o_o

Is their head of shipping by any chance played by Roger Delgado?

...Or are they implying that if you cancel the qualifying order, they will go ahead and ship you the free mini anyway, even if it's the only thing in the package... with the expectation that you will turn around and ship it right back (at your own expense, no less).

What...? I... What???
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Modhail on April 10, 2014, 03:11:22 PM
Yes, now add the realisation that they were apparently worried enough about such scenarios occuring that they felt the need to warn you beforehand...  o_o
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: weismonsters on April 10, 2014, 03:43:22 PM
Presumably it refers to this.
http://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/Returns

I am unsatisfied with Advanced Space Crusade. Do you think i can still return it?

Edit:  just noticed this
http://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/Famous-Familiars
Did not know they had started knocking those out.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: beefcake on April 10, 2014, 07:37:58 PM
WTF!! Are they bringing back in old citadel stuff at seemingly good prices (in comparison)
http://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/Champions-of-Chaos

Might get these. They are metal.

Edit: oh wait I was looking at the price in pounds. Changed to NZD and £15 changes to $48.
Usual exchange rate would make it $30
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: FramFramson on April 11, 2014, 12:24:51 AM
http://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/Champions-of-Chaos

Quote
back in the midst of time

 o_o  >:(  o_o
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: weismonsters on April 11, 2014, 12:41:53 AM
I seem to remember those Jes Goodwin champions appearing oin their site last year or the year before. They had the dragon masters dragon on there for a while too and then it disappeared. Maybe they are just toying with us.  o_o
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: beefcake on April 11, 2014, 04:46:07 AM
Cn you return things if you did a crap paint job and want to give it another go of a fresh set?
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Archie on April 11, 2014, 07:27:40 AM
Cn you return things if you did a crap paint job and want to give it another go of a fresh set?

Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: pixelgeek on April 11, 2014, 02:07:21 PM
I seem to remember those Jes Goodwin champions appearing oin their site last year or the year before. They had the dragon masters dragon on there for a while too and then it disappeared. Maybe they are just toying with us.  o_o

Probably selling old stock of metal figures that they know have resale value. Limited stock and then they are gone I suspect
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Belgian on April 12, 2014, 10:50:35 AM
Presumably it refers to this.
http://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/Returns

I am unsatisfied with Advanced Space Crusade. Do you think i can still return it?


Would like to know the answer of their return department  ;D
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: weismonsters on April 12, 2014, 05:28:22 PM
Would be interesting to see what they come up with.

Cn you return things if you did a crap paint job and want to give it another go of a fresh set?
Maybe it would help to tell them they are pro painted.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: nic-e on April 12, 2014, 07:21:06 PM
Would like to know the answer of their return department  ;D

To be fair to gw, returns and customer service are one area they really go all out on, nd i'm sure they'd have a good chuckle and actually try and help in some way :)
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Major_Gilbear on April 22, 2014, 11:27:28 AM
...I'm surprised to see that nobody's yet complained about the exorbitant cost and questionable quality of the new Citadel Tools!  :o

I read the specs and found myself wondering if the styling was worth a 400-500% mark-up over the same tools bought from a hardware store.

In particular, the clippers and the knife seem to the most "important" tools for GW's plastics, and I don't see that the quality of either is very high (always a particular shame with tools that are supposed to be sharp, and are therefore usually considered dangerous).

For example, why are the clippers stainless steel rather than proper tool-grade hardened steel, or why are they bypass cutters rather than flush cutters? The knife blade appears to have poor clearance from the handle, and the shape looks like it would be difficult to make delicate precision cuts with.

If you're asking people to pay those prices (and make a claim like "the best hobby tools in the world"), then they really should be better than they are.  :?
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: YPU on April 22, 2014, 11:40:57 AM
Interesting, i have 2 pair of gw cutters and they are both flush cutting tool steel. In fact i have used one of them forgoldsmithing work as decent flush cuttera werent available localy for a while.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Vermis on April 22, 2014, 01:43:50 PM
Like I said on a couple of other forums, I'm interested in that mould line tool. I use knife blades but I wouldn't mind seeing if this thing makes scraping a bit easier still. (Mould lines on GB Saxons almost drove me batty) I've looked at the suggested alternatives of deburring tools and seam scrapers: the rotating crank-handle of the former turns me off a bit, and the latter are not much cheaper here in blighty and frequently more expensive.

Also, they've switched to a wax 5/zahle for one of their new sculpting tools! :o I'm not in the market for many more wax carvers, but I want a look at that one anyway, see how good it is. (or isn't) Should see it this afternoon.

Everything else: I have all that junk anyway, non-GW brand and non-GW price tag. Meh.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Major_Gilbear on April 22, 2014, 05:28:25 PM
@ Vermis:

Seam scraper - You can:

1) Use the back of a heavy-duty Xacto blade. Try and avoid the point, and you will avoid a lot more of the flex. I've done this for years!

2) Use any flat hard sharp-edged tool for scraping seams. For example, the non-machined part of a file (usually towards the handle), half a pair of scissors, etc.

3) Buy a really good purpose-made tool like this (http://www.air-craft.net/acatalog/Seam-Scraper.html) one. Not cheaper, but is is very sharp-edged (will clean mouldlines off metal miniatures), and sharp-pointed (will clean 6mm models) and is adjustable in length.

Wax #5:

Is it that hard to find/expensive to buy? ???
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: pixelgeek on April 22, 2014, 07:20:27 PM
1) Use the back of a heavy-duty Xacto blade. Try and avoid the point, and you will avoid a lot more of the flex. I've done this for years!

The tool GW sells is similar to an aluminium burr remover and it actually works wonders for the type of plastic that GW uses for their miniatures. Much better IMO than a hobby knife or similar. The price is stupid but the tool does work.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Major_Gilbear on April 22, 2014, 11:34:41 PM
The tool GW sells is similar to an aluminium burr remover and it actually works wonders for the type of plastic that GW uses for their miniatures. Much better IMO than a hobby knife or similar. The price is stupid but the tool does work.

Oh, I'm sure all the tools work adequately!  :)

In fact, 20 years ago when GW started selling a few hobby tools for a *much* smaller mark-up, I got a pin-vice drill that I still use to this day. As a youngster, I didn't have access to many hobby stores within reasonable travel distance, and the internet wasn't yet something you did shopping on (or had much access to out of school).

However, there has been a huge trend lately (and not just by GW) to find hobby "solutions" for situations that were never really a problem in the first place just so that you can be sold something you don't need at a massive mark-up.

A successful scraper is just any sharp-edged metal tool with sufficient rigidity and hardness to scrape a plastic model with. The back of a knife or a pair of scissors is every bit as good, and I'll bet everyone on this forum has those tools at home already. ;)
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: pixelgeek on April 22, 2014, 11:38:01 PM
A successful scraper is just any sharp-edged metal tool with sufficient rigidity and hardness to scrape a plastic model with.

Have you used the tool in question?
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Vermis on April 23, 2014, 12:19:50 AM
Should see it this afternoon.

Or maybe I'll see 'em after the shops get them in next week. :-I

Major Gilbear: all true and reasonable, though I've tried the back of a couple of knives, at least, and it didn't work so great. I'll see if I can get a demo of the mould line remover, tho.
I don't mind buying extra(neous) tools and gadgets anyway. Tube cutters, plastic scribers, balsa strippers, five knife handles with at least half a dozen different types of blade... it's like my version of a barely-touched-but-growing DIY toolbox, although sometimes this happens. (http://www.sheldoncomics.com/archive/090705.html) A mould line remover would be a drop in the ocean. :D

Wax 5s are hard to find if that's what you go looking for. ;) Since I started mini conversions and sculpting I've occasionally heard that it's the 'holy grail' of metal sculpting tools, a great shape for manipulating putty etc.; but I never saw any webshops selling it, or pointers to same. Then a chance mention on an old forum post included the word 'Zahle': turned out it's the more commonly-used dentistry name of the tool. Turns out most of the wax carver types you get in cheap, generic sets have specific, sometimes exotic names. (http://minisculpture.co.uk/index.php?topic=623.0)
I don't know if the Zahle is the magic ingredient for sculpting - I have one now, but in the past I did okay with a Vehe and now my main carver is a modified LeCron (the GW tool from two generations back, ground down to proper edges) - but if GW is now selling a version of it, I wonder if it'd be more useful for would-be putty-pushers, or not, or if it's a big ol' chunky lump of metal like the last two.

'Course, if you're interested, you can easily get cheaper, finer, dental-quality Zahles, LeCrons, whatever, on ebay and retail webshops anyway. ;)
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: FramFramson on April 23, 2014, 07:03:07 AM
Say, does anyone have a recommendation for a really high-quality needle file? I can't find anything in local hobby stores - even the "nice" files are made-in-china stuff. The better ones are adequate, but I'd like at least one or two of the real thing.

My ideal needle file, if I can only have/afford one is one that tapers to a point, and which is flat on one side, and a mild half-oval profile on the other (so a very flat letter 'D' in cross-section).
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: FramFramson on April 23, 2014, 07:04:46 AM
By the by, it appears that Wood Elves are indeed getting a new book. I guess so much for the rumours of their getting axed?


(http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=8390&d=1398113001)

(http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=8392&d=1398113002)

(http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=8393&d=1398113003)

(http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=8391&d=1398113002)

(http://www.warseer.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=191930&d=1398217861)

Rules: http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?36070-Wood-Elves-Rumor-Roundup
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Grimmnar on April 23, 2014, 07:10:02 AM
Fram, never believe rumors. Especially ones about GW product.
And you might wanna curb those pics of rules and the like. Pretty sure they are going to get yanked when the moderator sees it.

Grimm
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Dr. Zombie on April 23, 2014, 07:32:36 AM
For sculpting tools and moldline removers. Ask your dentist next time you are there. I got some very cheap from my dentist. Once the dentist has used his tools on one patient he has to send them of to get sterilised and that costs money, therefore they are happy to get rid of the tools so they can just buy new and sterile ones.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: beefcake on April 23, 2014, 08:07:01 AM
About time the wood elves got a look in. Not sure how I like the new look. It's different but looks more like some sort of demonically possessed tree. Good if you want to do dark elves of the woods.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: carlos13th on April 23, 2014, 09:05:40 AM
Say, does anyone have a recommendation for a really high-quality needle file? I can't find anything in local hobby stores - even the "nice" files are made-in-china stuff. The better ones are adequate, but I'd like at least one or two of the real thing.

My ideal needle file, if I can only have/afford one is one that tapers to a point, and which is flat on one side, and a mild half-oval profile on the other (so a very flat letter 'D' in cross-section).

I use the gale force 9 needle file 5 piece set and quite like it. Think it cost me about 6 quid.

Its out of stock atm here

http://www.firestormgames.co.uk/5-piece-diamond-micro-files&search=file
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: YPU on April 23, 2014, 09:18:42 AM
Heh, I had kind of given up on my wood elves, or rather all the talk of them getting whacked was a rather good excuse not to shell out on them any more. I might just get a few of the new models if they are any good, tough with the current new iterations of fantasy half the stuff often is far to over the top for my taste. (dwarf heli-sub?)
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Major_Gilbear on April 23, 2014, 10:23:55 AM
@ Pixelgeek:

Which tool? The GW Scraper? It was demoed to me in store years ago when it came out and Failcast was new. I wasn't impressed then, and GW have stated that this new one is the same thing with a new handle.

If you mean the other scrapers (like the one I linked to), then yes - I bought it and use it quite often now.

Have you used many scrapers on models? If so, what did you find was the best value/most useful?


@ Vermis:

Yeah, I kind of assumed that the "Wax 5" was the "W&NS7 Size 1" of the sculpting world! :P However, you also covered my next comment which was why not use dental tools (which is what most "hobby sculpting tools" are in fact).

Personally, I am disappointed that GW wasted their effort on the nylon spatula tool when a silicone-tipped tool would have been a far more useful inclusion in the set. I mean, you can use pretty much anything appropriate to gloop textured paint onto a base (even coffee stirrer sticks).


@ Dr Zombie:

Excellent point, although I suspect that many dentists just use an autoclave now. Given the relatively high cost of such tools and the fact that they're usually medical-grade stainless steel, I doubt anyone sends old tools off to be sterilised anymore.

Still, worth asking as I'm sure they are likely to have some older tools that they don't mind parting with.


@ Fram Framson:

Files are tricky. You usually get two types: ones with cut faces, and ones with abrasives bonded to them.

For our hobby purposes, the cut files are usually better and last longer.

The quality is less important than with other tools though. Partly, this is because if you file metal (especially lead) models, the file gets all gummed-up and loses its usefulness.

If you chalk your files (as in, lightly run them over a piece of ordinary chalk - one stroke per face), the material arising from filing doesn't get stuck so readily. With a stiff brush, you can just clean down the files ready for next time; even cheap files last a long time like this!

Chalking can make a bit more mess though, and can remove some of the "bite" from the file. I don't really mind, as the filings make a mess anyway, and the softer abrasion is kinder to the models. It does also reduce the difference in quality between "good" files and "bad" files, so as long as they are not truly awful, I'd go with the cheap Chinese ones.

Based on that, I'd visit a good DIY or Electrical store and ask them what cut needle files they have. Or, if GF9 do a 5-peice set for $6, go with that.

If you happen to file lots of resin, plastic, etc, I'd swirl the files in some paint stripper from time to time to dissolve all the old build-up off them. I used to use Nitromors, but they the new formulation's rather pants now.

________________________________________________________

Re: Wood Elves

I rather liked the old metals and plastics (from... 6E?), and actually feel that the plastics still hold up very well today (which is rare, as a lot of WHFB plastic troops from that time were a bit poor).

I do think that the WE need an update badly though; they are out of date by two editions, and used to have lots of metal models in the old ranges. Clearly, some new plastic kits are in order!

The new treeman... Hmm. I like that they are a bit more deamonic than the old (4-5E) treemen, although I never disliked the 6E metal one like many folks did. I do think that these new treemen may have moved a bit too far from looking like trees though! Durthu waving a huge glowing sword around isn't really doing it for me either. I'll wait for better pictures before I pass final judgement on them.  :?

The new (plastic?) characters look great - of they are not £20 each, I'd let to get some.

I hope the plastic Glade Guard, Glade Riders, and Dryads remain though. I really like those, and with just a few extra bits and some thought, you can make a complete army just from them.  8)

I wonder what we'll see to replace the treekin, Wild Riders, and Eternal Guard though? I'm a bit worried given the increasingly silly direction a lot of new GW stuff seems to have gone. Do we think that the eagles and Hawk Riders will go or be replaced? And will the WE get a unit riding stags?

In any event, I'm glad to see the WE getting some love at last. I always liked them (especially from 6E onwards, and I have a force of them!), but also felt that the general WHFB rules have been somewhat unsuitable/unkind to them over the various editions.

Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Vermis on April 23, 2014, 10:50:20 AM
Quote
Which tool? The GW Scraper? It was demoed to me in store years ago when it came out and Failcast was new. I wasn't impressed then, and GW have stated that this new one is the same thing with a new handle.

The blueshirt I talked to yesterday said the new one was made of stiffer or harder steel, because the old finecast cleaner blade was slightly flexible. I'll wait to see for myself whether that makes it actually useful though.

Ta for the chalking tip. :) I'll give that a try next time.

Wood elves: I glanced at the first pic and thought "oh, there's a 40K daemon prince on the cover, but what's that got to do with wood elves?"
Not sure if I like it or if it'll grow on me (I like me treemen a bit more... burarum than hissss), but good to see the welves haven't been cast by the wayside like so many mock-assyrian dwarfs and battle nuns.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Major_Gilbear on April 23, 2014, 11:12:39 AM
The blueshirt I talked to yesterday said the new one was made of stiffer or harder steel, because the old finecast cleaner blade was slightly flexible. I'll wait to see for myself whether that makes it actually useful though.

Do also try the scissors trick. Pointy ones (preferably the old-fashioned sort with a screw that you can undo) are most useful as they can reach where you need them. I think you might be pleasantly surprised! ;)

good to see the welves haven't been cast by the wayside like so many mock-assyrian dwarfs and battle nuns.
I seem to have a knack for liking/collecting armies that consistently get marginalised or dumped... At least I never fell for Squats though (well... I did for Epic actually. Sigh.).  ::)
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: carlos13th on April 23, 2014, 12:53:21 PM
I really like the wood elf glade guard. Would only pick them up second hand though.  Cannot justify paying GW prices?
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Major_Gilbear on April 23, 2014, 01:04:15 PM
I really like the wood elf glade guard. Would only pick them up second hand though.  Cannot justify paying GW prices?
Totally agree/understand.

That said, they are rumoured to be getting a re-release. If this is true, and like other plastics, that means that the price will be going up and the box contents will be going down.

Therefore if you *really* want some, past experience tells me now is the time to be looking before it's too late. For example, you can get them here (http://elementgames.co.uk/wargames-and-miniatures/fantasy-miniatures-games/warhammer-fantasy/wood-elves/wood-elf-glade-guard) for £17 (for 16 models) new. Not a terrible price really, and if you look around, I'll bet you can improve on that.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: carlos13th on April 23, 2014, 01:48:05 PM
I don't know why there was a question mark at the end of my post.



You make a compelling argument I like them but have no use for them ATM and any hobby money I do have will be spent on Samurai. I don't really want them but they would be nice to have, I will pick them up one day second hand, or if they are not available I won't.

Just over a pound a model isn't terrible. Though of course that's about the same price as metal perry Samurai.

Still thanks for the advice, for anyone who has been on the fence about picking them up it's probably a great idea to do it now you are right.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Major_Gilbear on April 23, 2014, 02:15:44 PM
@ carlos13th:

...Sorry if that sounded like a sales pitch BTW, I was in fact just trying to be helpful! I'm sure you didn't read it that way, but still. :-X

I completely understand not getting side-tracked on other projects... And yeah, the Perry figures are very good value (their plastics for example  :-*).
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: carlos13th on April 23, 2014, 02:24:38 PM
I didn't think it was at all. More of a public service announcement.

My progress is slow enough as it buying other ranges would be an expensive dust collector.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: pixelgeek on April 23, 2014, 04:00:11 PM
Say, does anyone have a recommendation for a really high-quality needle file? I can't find anything in local hobby stores - even the "nice" files are made-in-china stuff. The better ones are adequate, but I'd like at least one or two of the real thing.

My ideal needle file, if I can only have/afford one is one that tapers to a point, and which is flat on one side, and a mild half-oval profile on the other (so a very flat letter 'D' in cross-section).

Check your hardware store. I picked up a set of small files quite some time ago and they have been a treasure
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: pixelgeek on April 23, 2014, 04:04:42 PM
Have you used many scrapers on models? If so, what did you find was the best value/most useful?

Depends on what I am working on. The GW hard plastic cleans very nicely with their tool (you should also be able to find generic versions online) but whomever demoed it on Finecast was a twit. Its not good for that at all. Its a pretty limited tool in the it doesn't even work with the restic that folks like Mantic use. I gave up using a sharp blade on my hard plastic figs as soon as I got it. No worries about accidentally nicking the fig and the smooths the mould lines out well.

For restic I sadly use a sharp knife and prayer. I hate that stuff.

Everything else is a file and a knife.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: pixelgeek on April 23, 2014, 04:06:43 PM
@ Vermis:

BTW the system here lets you multi-quote numerous people in the same topic. Under your reply form field is a list of all the previous posts and an "Insert Quote" link. So I can easily quote you and then quote Vermis

The blueshirt I talked to yesterday said the new one was made of stiffer or harder steel, because the old finecast cleaner blade was slightly flexible. I'll wait to see for myself whether that makes it actually useful though.

From the same reply form.

Its darned handy when you want to quote multiple people in the same reply.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Major_Gilbear on April 23, 2014, 04:32:57 PM
@ Pixelgeek:

I know all about multi-quote, but sometimes I don't want to bulk up a long post with quotes. Thanks either way though; seeing your triple-post despite the multi-quote feature made me chuckle too! ;)

______________________________________

Rumours abound that the Glade Guard, Glade Riders, and Dryads will all be getting "new releases". So... Smaller number in a box with a higher price I guess?  :?
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Vermis on April 23, 2014, 05:42:20 PM
Do also try the scissors trick. Pointy ones (preferably the old-fashioned sort with a screw that you can undo) are most useful as they can reach where you need them. I think you might be pleasantly surprised! ;)

Just so happened I had a pair sitting beside me here, along with the plastic minis from the back-of-the-knife trial, and... yeah, that doesn't work too badly! It ain't unscrewing though, it's got something more like a rivet with a slot in one end.

After this I might give them a pass with my wee diamond blade sharpener, too. Hurrah for gadgets! :D
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: pixelgeek on April 23, 2014, 06:27:35 PM
Thanks either way though; seeing your triple-post despite the multi-quote feature made me chuckle too! ;)

I actually prefer to single quote but some people don't ;-)
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Dr.Falkenhayn on April 26, 2014, 02:34:27 PM
just spotted this,new FW Kit  ::) i've seen better Scratchbuilts,not to mention the 68£ Price Tag  :o :o
(http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Images/Product/DefaultFW/large/Krios2.jpg)
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Mason on April 26, 2014, 02:39:39 PM
 :o :o

Feck!

That IS hideous.
 :o
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Cubs on April 26, 2014, 02:45:57 PM
The new Steampunk line?

Needs more Kogzzzzz!
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Dr. Zombie on April 26, 2014, 02:53:30 PM
I actually like that design. A Grimdark steampunk.

The pricetag however o_o
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: OSHIROmodels on April 26, 2014, 02:56:37 PM
Needs more Kogzzzzz!

 lol lol

Although I actually quite like that. Not for 40K or VSF, just as a thing in itself and £68 isn't that bad a price really.

cheers

James
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Dr.Falkenhayn on April 26, 2014, 03:04:50 PM

Needs more Kogzzzzz!

lol lol

made me laugh aswell  lol lol
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: pixelgeek on April 26, 2014, 03:49:12 PM
i've seen better Scratchbuilts...

Really? Care to share some links? Those must be really amazing pieces of work.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Dr.Falkenhayn on April 26, 2014, 04:55:56 PM
Really? Care to share some links? Those must be really amazing pieces of work.

see for yourself  ;)

(http://gravengames.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/iron-guard-teachmarine-thunderfire-conversion-scratchbuild-12.jpg)

(http://i182.photobucket.com/albums/x61/Srennit02/abc/92373dc2.jpg)

(https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSqqLBOyH5qtJH7kGDa5c6iY91NVgFXBu_zKBSiTClXOpegcYtQ)

(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-ze1h0-RFQ28/Tn5cnaXZkQI/AAAAAAAAACs/qk8jRaifTfI/s1600/DSC02973.JPG)

Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Damas on April 26, 2014, 05:33:22 PM
Go to:

http://z11.invisionfree.com/Work_In_Progress/index.php?

and wallow in the insanity of those with too much plastic and time.  ;D
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Mason on April 26, 2014, 06:21:11 PM
Dr F: Those are some seriously good builds and I have to agree that they are much better designs, in my opinion.

Go to:

http://z11.invisionfree.com/Work_In_Progress/index.php?

and wallow in the insanity of those with too much plastic and time.  ;D

Off to have a good wallow..... :D

Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Commander Vyper on April 26, 2014, 06:26:09 PM
Greydeath et al were good friends of mine when i used to be knee deep in gw.

Some very lovely stuff there, take a close look at the Tau and space marine stuff especially Paul.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Too Bo Coo on April 29, 2014, 01:17:12 AM
Someone is pissed off!

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/warhammer-Flashing-OOP-1980s-exclusive-only-millions-of-fragments-ever-made-/281315057122?pt=UK_Toys_Wargames_RL&hash=item417faf1de2
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: nic-e on April 29, 2014, 08:28:37 AM
Someone is pissed off!

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/warhammer-Flashing-OOP-1980s-exclusive-only-millions-of-fragments-ever-made-/281315057122?pt=UK_Toys_Wargames_RL&hash=item417faf1de2

Tony reidy scraping together some cash for defiance?  ;D
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Major_Gilbear on April 29, 2014, 01:45:27 PM
More Wood Elf stuff...

Wildwood Rangers = £23.50 for 10 (dual kit with EG below) Pic 1 (http://www.games-workshop.com/resources/catalog/product/920x950/99120204008_WildwoodRangers01.jpg) Pic 2 (http://www.games-workshop.com/resources/catalog/product/920x950/99120204008_WildwoodRangers02.jpg)

Eternal Guard = £23.50 for 10 (dual kit with WWR above)  Pic 1 (http://www.games-workshop.com/resources/catalog/product/920x950/99120204008_EternalGuard01.jpg) Pic 2 (http://www.games-workshop.com/resources/catalog/product/920x950/99120204008_EternalGuard02.jpg)

Wild Riders = £22.50 for 5 (dual kit with SotT below)  Pic 1 (http://www.games-workshop.com/resources/catalog/product/920x950/99120204009_WildRiders01.jpg) Pic 2 (http://www.games-workshop.com/resources/catalog/product/920x950/99120204009_WildRiders02.jpg)

Sisters of the Thorn = £22.50 for 5 (dual kit with WR above)  Pic 1 (http://www.games-workshop.com/resources/catalog/product/920x950/99120204009_SistersoftheThorn01.jpg) Pic 2 (http://www.games-workshop.com/resources/catalog/product/920x950/99120204009_SistersoftheThorn02.jpg)

I quite like these on the whole (Sisters notwithstanding), and I'm looking forward to seeing players do with them.

Also, the mounted kit was sculpted by Aragorn Marks which is interesting (to me) since I wasn't aware he was doing digital sculpting now.

Prices though... Hmm. Seems pretty expensive for a block of infantry, and even if the mounted troops are rarer unit choices fielded in smaller numbers they are pricey too.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Cubs on April 29, 2014, 02:18:50 PM
This may be the sign of a bleed on the brain, but I think they are really quite nice - especially those Wild Riders. Why a Ranger requires a blade the size of a window sill is anyone's guess, however, and it's a pity they didn't feel inclined to make them a third of the size to keep things within sensible limits, but there we go. Overall I'm impressed and I think the price is a little high, but not outrageous.

Is someone in GW making good decisions?
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Major_Gilbear on April 29, 2014, 02:26:15 PM
Is someone in GW making good decisions?

I have a few of the current edition books, and after re-reading the HE and DE books last night I was impressed that they seemed well-balanced on the whole. So (some very silly costs aside)... maybe... yes?  o_o

Weapons-wise, nothing that can't be fixed with a sharp modelling knife and a file! ;)
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: pixelgeek on April 29, 2014, 02:38:32 PM
Is someone in GW making good decisions?

Doubt it. The figs are still ridiculously expensive.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Major_Gilbear on April 29, 2014, 02:53:16 PM
Doubt it. The figs are still ridiculously expensive.

£2.35 for a figure that can be assembled as one of two different models? I wouldn't call that "ridiculous". Not the cheapest model out there, sure, but still at least affordable (which is more than I can say for many GW releases!).

Instead, I think expecting people to buy and paint 20-40 of these per regiment is ridiculous. <shrugs>
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Timbor on April 29, 2014, 03:01:51 PM
If those prices are correct, then it is a very good thing.  The recent dark elf witch elf dual kits are  £35 for 10...
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Major_Gilbear on April 29, 2014, 03:25:53 PM
Well, assuming I'm not breaking any forum rules by linking to it, you can see the prices in all currencies here (http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l257/CommissarGinn/imagejpg2_zpsa7b0d923.jpg).
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Timbor on April 29, 2014, 03:58:41 PM
Wow, that is quite reasonable compared to recent releases.  I will likely pick up a box of each just to play around with.  The greatswords were $50CAD when released, and this is forecasted to be a bit cheaper than that, with more components for the infantry.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Dr.Falkenhayn on April 29, 2014, 04:31:41 PM
looks like 7th Edition 40K is coming sooner than expected  :o

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2014/04/40k-6th-edition-is-being-pulled.html (http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2014/04/40k-6th-edition-is-being-pulled.html)

Quote:
Multiple Retailers are reporting GW reps are calling to inform them the following products are being pulled:

- Warhammer 40,000 rulebook

- Dark Vengeance starter set

- Warhammer 40,000 Psychic Powers cards

- New Edition Release date of May 24th
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Major_Gilbear on April 29, 2014, 05:16:27 PM
I gather it's not such much a new edition, as a re-issue of the current edition... So 6.5 if you will!  ;D

Time will tell I guess.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: pixelgeek on April 29, 2014, 07:07:41 PM
I wouldn't call that "ridiculous". Not the cheapest model out there, sure, but still at least affordable (which is more than I can say for many GW releases!).

So its cheap for a GW release. Its still more expensive than almost everything I've bought in the last year. Including boxes of 30-35 hard plastic multi-part figures from other companies, pre-painted terrain, entire companies of 15mm plastics, etc etc.

GW figures should be cheap. They churn them out in huge volumes, they have a huge distribution system in place and the material itself is the cheapest part of the process. They benefit from an economy of scale that none of their competitors have.

If the Perrys and Warlord can put out similarly priced plastic sets then something is seriously wrong with GW and its pricing.

So yes, these are not as egregiously priced as some of their recent plastics, and, as usual, they look pretty nice, but they are ridiculously priced for what you get.


Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Diakon on April 29, 2014, 11:38:22 PM
Not sure about the infantry but I really like those riders steeds. Very Miyazaki in my opinion. That's why I want them  :D
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Vermis on April 30, 2014, 12:40:00 AM
I AM NOT ASHAMED

(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5259/13883086768_4bd6f5691a_o.jpg)

In other news, the new sculpting tools are indeed an improvement on the last one, but I still wouldn't buy 'em. The flat surfaces are good 'n' smooth but the edges are as thick and blunt as I thought they looked in the photos.

The files are kinda interesting, though. Both diamond files, the coarser one is as fine as the better diamond-coated stuff I have (admittedly a Lidl knife sharpener) and the finer one is... finer still. I don't know how good they'd be at filing down thick metal mouldlines (I think they'd need that chalking tip Major Gilbear mentioned!) but given GW's push to plastic I guess it doesn't bother them, and you'd probably get a good final polish on metal or plastic minis with them.

Also, picked up the White Dwarf Weekly and I think that treeman's growing on me. :-X Especially after Seb Perbett's designer's notes. I still think it's more 'bark-armoured demon' than 'not-ent', but it's not bad for all that.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Major_Gilbear on April 30, 2014, 08:48:45 AM
@ Pixelgeek:

You can always find something cheaper - a bag of plastic Army Men style figures are even cheaper still, and are very often quite well sculpted when you consider them carefully.

GW models should be cheaper, but they are not for a lot of reasons; some of which are obvious like money, and some of which are less obvious like their overheads as a company.

I don't think £2.35 a figure is ridiculous if I'm buying <20, as that still falls within a reasonably affordable sum. Not cheap, but affordable. I won't be buying tons of them for huge blocks though - I'd just use a unit filler or three for that.

Please also note that I say this as somebody who's usually the first to complain about GW's pricing!  :-X


@ Vermis:

So have you used the scraper yet? Was it worthwhile? Has it turned you into the next David Soper?  ;D
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Major_Gilbear on April 30, 2014, 08:55:15 AM
Both diamond files, the coarser one is as fine as the better diamond-coated stuff I have (admittedly a Lidl knife sharpener) and the finer one is... finer still. I don't know how good they'd be at filing down thick metal mouldlines (I think they'd need that chalking tip Major Gilbear mentioned!) but given GW's push to plastic I guess it doesn't bother them, and you'd probably get a good final polish on metal or plastic minis with them.

Be wary of chalking files that have the abrasives bonded to them as opposed to being cut. It may still work, but their nature is rather different. I'd probably suggest regularly talcing them rather than occasionally chalking them.

Either way, I use cut files for modelling because they have a much longer life than coated files when used as hard as I do!  lol
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: pixelgeek on April 30, 2014, 07:34:51 PM
GW models should be cheaper, but they are not for a lot of reasons; some of which are obvious like money, and some of which are less obvious like their overheads as a company.

Well they are trying to float the company on a diminishing number of gamers is the main problem. Perhaps this reduction is an indication that they've finally seen that as a bad idea but, the plan they have followed for some years, charging a premium for their figures, is slowly strangling them.

They have some much competition now, across a range of markets, that just making really nice figs isn't enough of a draw.

I could have been clearer but my point is that GW has a lot of competition for the average gamers dollar which provide much cheaper alternatives. If what I want to do is paint some minis and have a tabletop game I can get involved in a lot of games now that provide a complete solution at a fraction of the cost.

I love their minis. I especially love the Wood Elves. But the market for their products is either Warhammer/40K gamers or people who want some sort of figures for their generic fantasy or sci-fi gaming.

The later market is pretty small and often satisfied with a single purchase. How many non-GW fantasy games are there that would require a person to buy more than a single box of the Wood Elf cav?

There are some figs that they make that aren't available elsewhere, like most of the Wood Elf range, but I suspect that for people not playing Warhammer or 40K, their figs are too much of an outlay.

Also, don't forget that due to their differential pricing, you get a much better deal for GW minis in the UK and US than elsewhere. Most GW boxed sets and single figures left the realm of impulse purchases a long time ago in Canada.

Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Major_Gilbear on May 01, 2014, 10:35:22 AM
Pixelgeek, I pretty much agree with your last post.

I also think that some of their more recent extreme styling has turned a lot of people off.

For example, their terrain is very expensive, and *covered* in SKULLZ! That makes removing the skulls as much work or more as simply making your own terrain from scratch. This in turn negates the point of paying the high "convenience" premium of the terrain.

Or some of their "centrepiece" models that nobody normal can reasonably expect to ever take anywhere without serious and justifiable fear of breaking them. Examples of such silliness include the Dark Elf Cauldron of Blood and the Vampire Mortis Whatsit.

I understand that they want to have models that are more unique (and therefore trademarkable), but that's not what many of their customers want. By not recognising that, other companies have been able to fill the gap (often at similar prices even) and take their revenue away. Avatars of War and Raging Heroes are two good examples, and Mantic's early business model was based on GW derivations.

I don't think that £15-25 for a box of 10-15 infantry models is unreasonable if:

1) they are very nice models that assemble well
2) you only need a few such boxes for an army

But when you expect to sell 2-3 boxes per regiment, and for players to have 4-5 such regiments at a minimum just to play a basic version of the game... Well, then you're going to struggle to sell the game as well as before.

What makes is somewhat worse is that older players will often have built up a collection over time of GW models anyway, and can play without purchasing more than the books.

That's one reason the books are so expensive I think, and also why the model count has gone up so drastically (i.e., not just to get players to buy more boxes, but to get existing players to supplement/replace their existing regiments).

The other thing is... None of their games are very well balanced if you set out to build a distorted army. And by distorted army, I mean not building a one-of-each studio-type army. So, really, if you and your group are already in and happy enough with one edition of a game... Why update to the the latest edition (especially if the edition supercedes your army book)? I mean, it's not mandatory.

Personally, I will probably grab a couple of the new WE model kits. But then, I already have lots of WE stuff, and am not likely to buy into a new edition of WHFB (since I have complete 5E, 7E and 8E already). For me then, this will be a completionist activity that will close off the current edition for me nicely, and from which I will not likely graduate to the new edition.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Vermis on May 01, 2014, 11:37:12 AM
@ Vermis:

So have you used the scraper yet? Was it worthwhile? Has it turned you into the next David Soper?  ;D

I was given an SM backpack to try it out on and it wasn't too bad. It's also handy for a bit of a manicure after clipping your fingernails. ;) I have no idea who David Soper is, though.

Be wary of chalking files that have the abrasives bonded to them as opposed to being cut. It may still work, but their nature is rather different. I'd probably suggest regularly talcing them rather than occasionally chalking them.

Noted! Ta.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Major_Gilbear on May 01, 2014, 11:48:26 AM
I have no idea who David Soper is, though.

A very talented man (http://sproketsmallworld.blogspot.co.uk/) who paints plastic models rather well.  ;)
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Vermis on May 01, 2014, 11:58:54 AM
Blimey. :o Bookmarked!
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: pixelgeek on May 01, 2014, 03:51:02 PM
For example, their terrain is very expensive, and *covered* in SKULLZ.

Their terrain offerings have been all over the place. Their modular hills are actually quite nice but they don't make them anymore. They appear to have stopped selling a lot of their terrain oddly enough.

Their terrain is the best example of their lack of concern for secondary markets. They could make nice fantasy and sci-fi terrain with a sprue of skullz and Warhammerish bitz and sell a lot of them to other gamers but I suspect that their either don't even care about that market or that market isn't large enough for them to bother.

I don't think that £15-25 for a box of 10-15 infantry models is unreasonable if:.

I think that most of their infantry boxes are just ten figures. Cav are usually in fives. Typically one needs two boxes for an average size unit. And if that box makes two distinct troop types (which is actually a pretty damn neat bit of work) then you need four to field the two units.

It can get really expensive really fast.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: zemjw on May 01, 2014, 04:11:55 PM
Quote
And if that box makes two distinct troop types (which is actually a pretty damn neat bit of work)

While I agree it is clever design, what it really means is that they're getting you to pay for pieces you can't use and don't need. Not only that, you're left with odds and ends that are difficult to make use of elsewhere.

I'm all for building up the bits box, but I'd much rather have specific boxes that were either cheaper or had a few more figures in them.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: pixelgeek on May 01, 2014, 04:19:21 PM
While I agree it is clever design, what it really means is that they're getting you to pay for pieces you can't use and don't need. Not only that, you're left with odds and ends that are difficult to make use of elsewhere.

I'm all for building up the bits box, but I'd much rather have specific boxes that were either cheaper or had a few more figures in them.

Ain't gonna happen. No-one, not GW, not distributors and not retailers, want to have that many distinct SKUs to sell.

On the plus side, if you aren't buying their figs for Warhammer it often means that you get two types of models with a single purchase
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Argonor on May 01, 2014, 08:30:53 PM
On the plus side, if you aren't buying their figs for Warhammer it often means that you get two types of models with a single purchase

If you're talking about, say, Bretonnia and Empire, you can get nicer, cheaper models elsewhere. So why would you?
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Gibby on May 01, 2014, 09:14:56 PM
I can't help but notice that the new Treeman is wearing high heels. What a load of crap!
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: pixelgeek on May 01, 2014, 10:21:00 PM
I can't help but notice that the new Treeman is wearing high heels. What a load of crap!

That actually killed the model for me when I saw it. Seems so utterly bizarre.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Vermis on May 01, 2014, 11:41:20 PM
I thought the same, but like I say, it's growing on me. Kind of an elf-wood-demon, purposely evoking Wraithlords and Wraithknights, as per Seb Perbett's notes, rather than the traditional not-ent. (And being a bit of an ent fanboy, that could be considered high praise from me!) I'll tell you what, though: it definitely beats the ambulatory piles of firewood that WE treemen used to be.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: beefcake on May 02, 2014, 04:28:06 AM
I really like the classic wood elf treeman though. Although the original Durthu (however you spell it) was a pretty bad model.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Major_Gilbear on May 02, 2014, 08:15:39 AM
If you're talking about, say, Bretonnia and Empire, you can get nicer, cheaper models elsewhere. So why would you?

Dingdingding! Ladies and Gentlemen, we have a winner!

I have high hopes for the (eventual...) Heresy plastics for this very reason - nice cheap GW-scale undead. ;)


I can't help but notice that the new Treeman is wearing high heels. What a load of crap!

The treemen could be on the balls of their feel, and what you perceive as "heels" are in fact anchoring roots they put down and take up as they move to help stabilise them. ;)


I'll tell you what, though: it definitely beats the ambulatory piles of firewood that WE treemen used to be.

I quite liked the 6E treemen! I think their lack of anthropomorphism threw a lot of people who expecting the earlier 4E/5E style though. :'(

Really, the 6E treemen needed:

1) Better "faces", as they look a bit characterless without them.
2) Bark patches, as the models just looked like torn raw timber and not very tree-like.
3) More limbs/branches, to again emphasise the tree-ness.
4) At least two upper limbs need to look more weapon-like and dominant, to help emphasise the treeMAN.

Fortunately, these are not difficult changes to make, and the new treeman kit has all the spare plastic parts you need for several 6E treemen 'upgrades' in one box.

Since I'm planning on upgrading two 6E treemen, I'll let you know how that goes! ;)
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: nic-e on May 04, 2014, 12:02:30 AM
So from what the guys at my fl-non gw-gs have said, the new tools are actually of a REALLY high quality. i've heard the clippers are great and was wondering if anyone had tried them out? i know they cost alot, but i need a new pair and rather than spend £3 on a cheap pair that doos a good, i'd happily spend £20 on a great pair that does a good job and looks as sexy as the gw ones do.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: carlos13th on May 04, 2014, 12:14:20 AM
I bought these and they are great

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Plastic-Coated-Jewelry-Pliers-Cutter/dp/B0052RPBY6/ref=sr_1_13?ie=UTF8&qid=1399158644&sr=8-13&keywords=Cutters

Can't see GW ones being 4 times better.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Vermis on May 04, 2014, 12:45:54 AM
So from what the guys at my fl-non gw-gs have said, the new tools are actually of a REALLY high quality. i've heard the clippers are great and was wondering if anyone had tried them out? i know they cost alot, but i need a new pair and rather than spend £3 on a cheap pair that doos a good, i'd happily spend £20 on a great pair that does a good job and looks as sexy as the gw ones do.

I did a wee bit of shopping around for alternatives to the GW (and Warlord) tools. You can get a pair of Xuron micro shears on ebay, or Model Craft heavy duty cutters (http://www.modelsforsale.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=668219-Model-Craft-Heavy-Duty-Sprue-&-Plastic-Cutter-Scale---PPL6704) for £6-8. Whether or not they're sexy enough is up to you!
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: pixelgeek on May 04, 2014, 02:51:06 AM
So from what the guys at my fl-non gw-gs have said, the new tools are actually of a REALLY high quality.

Compared to?
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Major_Gilbear on May 04, 2014, 08:24:30 PM
So from what the guys at my fl-non gw-gs have said, the new tools are actually of a REALLY high quality. i've heard the clippers are great and was wondering if anyone had tried them out? i know they cost alot, but i need a new pair and rather than spend £3 on a cheap pair that doos a good, i'd happily spend £20 on a great pair that does a good job and looks as sexy as the gw ones do.

If you want to spend that kind of money, check out something like Lindstrom flush micro bevel cutters (https://www.etsy.com/uk/listing/94660844/lindstrom-micro-bevel-sidecutter?utm_source=google&utm_medium=product_listing_promoted_en_gb&utm_campaign=supplies_mid). Working them compared to anything I've owned previously is... Well, let's just say there's no real comparison, and that my hands thank me for the upgrade! ;)
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: nic-e on May 05, 2014, 08:52:55 PM
If you want to spend that kind of money, check out something like Lindstrom flush micro bevel cutters (https://www.etsy.com/uk/listing/94660844/lindstrom-micro-bevel-sidecutter?utm_source=google&utm_medium=product_listing_promoted_en_gb&utm_campaign=supplies_mid). Working them compared to anything I've owned previously is... Well, let's just say there's no real comparison, and that my hands thank me for the upgrade! ;)

If it's for sale on etsy, you know it's either quality, or something with gears stuck on it :)those do like nice.I'm currently using a pair of professional jewellery ones from college (they are REALLY nice) but i wont be taking them to uni with me considering how much it bugs me when my tools go missing.

The comparison was being drawn between your standard b&q range of clippers & the army painter clippers.the gw ones seemed much nicer to use, didn't hurt the hand when pushing hard.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: pixelgeek on May 06, 2014, 12:18:20 AM
If it's for sale on etsy, you know it's either quality, or something with gears stuck on it :)

Seems like they are just reselling existing products. Seems odd for etsy
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: nic-e on May 06, 2014, 08:43:50 PM
Seems like they are just reselling existing products. Seems odd for etsy

Really? whenever i've been on etsy it always seems to have a large amount of sellers treating it as a high end ebay, or trying to pass off cheap brass beads as hand made trinkets.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Vermis on May 06, 2014, 08:55:04 PM
or trying to pass off cheap brass beads as hand made trinkets.

To be honest that's the most I've heard about it, on sites poking fun at hipsters...
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: pixelgeek on May 07, 2014, 02:35:21 PM
To be honest that's the most I've heard about it, on sites poking fun at hipsters...

Quite a lot of that but also quite a lot of people who do make very good products. Including one fellow who made a very fun fantasy card game. People just like poking fun.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: FramFramson on May 07, 2014, 06:20:49 PM
If you want to spend that kind of money, check out something like Lindstrom flush micro bevel cutters (https://www.etsy.com/uk/listing/94660844/lindstrom-micro-bevel-sidecutter?utm_source=google&utm_medium=product_listing_promoted_en_gb&utm_campaign=supplies_mid). Working them compared to anything I've owned previously is... Well, let's just say there's no real comparison, and that my hands thank me for the upgrade! ;)

$70 nippers... holy shit.  o_o
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Hammers on May 08, 2014, 10:09:47 AM
If you want to spend that kind of money, check out something like Lindstrom flush micro bevel cutters (https://www.etsy.com/uk/listing/94660844/lindstrom-micro-bevel-sidecutter?utm_source=google&utm_medium=product_listing_promoted_en_gb&utm_campaign=supplies_mid). Working them compared to anything I've owned previously is... Well, let's just say there's no real comparison, and that my hands thank me for the upgrade! ;)

Yes, precision cutters and pliers are fucking expensive for a reason. I can't really make myself spend that kind of money, though, even though something tells me I should if I am to take my hobby seriously (which is a sort of a contradiction in terms).
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Major_Gilbear on May 08, 2014, 01:09:02 PM
I work with a lot of metal models, as well as a lot of sprued plastic ones...

Even with decent DIY-store clippers though, I'd often end up with cramped hands after an hour or so, and have frequently struggled if I had to prepare a lot of figures for a project.

I felt that there must be something better out there, and if it's a tool that will last me my whole life as well as spare me physical injury, then the cost was worthwhile.

My experience has so far proven that good tools make for a safer and better job (and are in fact still good value when you consider the costs of time saved, personal injury, or damaging your work).

Buying really crap tools -at any price- is just asking for trouble though.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: FramFramson on May 08, 2014, 06:19:14 PM
Oh, I'd agree that better tools will be more effective, but I've had quite decent service from a reasonable pair of Excel pliers (a common US hobby brand available in many places here).

Now, I grant that I play skirmish games, so I never prepares dozens of figures at ago and usually I'm just snipping integral bases, so I'm not doing anything superfine that I can't just file to get where I want. If I were working on larger volumes that might make a difference. But then, higher volumes would also justify higher cost tools as all the costs scale up!

For instance, I did just pay $40 for a pile of Dremel cutting bits. Never mind the hand tools, give me mechanization! lol
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Major_Gilbear on May 09, 2014, 09:55:59 AM
[...] Never mind the hand tools, give me vibration white finger (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vibration_white_finger)! lol

Fixed that for you!  ;D

Joking aside, I have a Dremel too - it's invaluable when converting metal figures, and for working on more elaborate scenic projects.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: FramFramson on May 13, 2014, 10:39:13 PM
In the grimdark future there is only CHESS.

(http://i.imgur.com/4Sar69i.jpg)

You can't make this up! http://www.polygon.com/2014/5/13/5712746/warhammer-40k-chess-regicide-2014-tablets-mobile-pc
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: OSHIROmodels on May 14, 2014, 12:06:18 AM
So they're now trying to take over the 'hobby' of chess  :-X

Never mind  ::)

cheers

James
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Dr Mathias on May 14, 2014, 12:18:34 AM
I feel a little dirty considering how many 40k figures I have piled up. That intro statement is so juvenile...

I like the marine cgi though :|
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: beefcake on May 14, 2014, 06:10:08 AM
So they're now trying to take over the 'hobby' of chess  :-X

Never mind  ::)

cheers

James
Probably trademarked the word "chess" too
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Modhail on May 14, 2014, 06:44:52 AM
Who....Why....WHAT?!
What an inane concept for a digital game...

Ooooh, wait, I see where they are going with this. From White Dwarf Daily, february 2015:
"Warhammer 40K Chess-Regicide, you played it on the PC, now join in the action with your friends! WH40K:C-R can be played with our fine range of Citadel miniatures. To optimally enjoy the game, you need one miniature on the first square of the Realm of Battle Chessboard, two on the second, three on the third. Our specialised range of WH40K:C-R are available now, for only €5 each!
Join the action now!"
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Argonor on May 14, 2014, 08:00:19 AM
"Cathrin Machin, project lead at Hammerfall Publishing, told Polygon that two of the defining principles of Warhammer 40K: Chess - Regicide are compelling and tactical gameplay mechanics combined with a strong emphasis on visual fidelity. Based on this, the game mixes in stunt choreographed and motion captured animation to create "merciless kill and death animations" using military trained fight and stunt choreographers."

I remember this game. It was called 'Battle Chess' back in the late 80's. Didn't feature power armour, though.  ::)
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: beefcake on May 14, 2014, 08:26:11 AM
Ah battle chess. First game I ever played when dad brought home the 286. Loved the rook eating things.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Cubs on May 14, 2014, 09:15:27 AM
"Let the Wookie win."
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Argonor on May 14, 2014, 11:35:08 AM
"Let the Wookie win."

Why? You don't need arms in the SW universe, they'll just replace them with bionics  lol
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: YPU on May 14, 2014, 02:26:09 PM
Also what is up witg that double title? do they expect 40k chess to be a franchise that this needs the regicide title. Also it might be my being a non native speaker but it doesnt particularly roll off now does it?
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Argonor on May 14, 2014, 03:41:58 PM
Also what is up witg that double title? do they expect 40k chess to be a franchise that this needs the regicide title. Also it might be my being a non native speaker but it doesnt particularly roll off now does it?

I guess it's a 'pun' on the King being the one playing piece you need to 'kill' in order to win the game. My tongue doesn't like it, either  lol
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Vermis on May 14, 2014, 03:55:06 PM
For those not in the know, regicide is a game in the 40K background - I assume the 41st millenium permutation of chess. ;)

In other news, anyone notice that 40K 7th ed is due for release, just two years after 6th? From what little I've heard, it's to clear up the clutter from all the added Apocalypse, dataslate and detachment supplements, etc. Though there are a couple of other theories about it, particularly the one about a desperate increase in the rate of releases just before a crash.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: nic-e on May 14, 2014, 04:57:07 PM
For those not in the know, regicide is a game in the 40K background - I assume the 41st millenium permutation of chess. ;)

In other news, anyone notice that 40K 7th ed is due for release, just two years after 6th? From what little I've heard, it's to clear up the clutter from all the added Apocalypse, dataslate and detachment supplements, etc. Though there are a couple of other theories about it, particularly the one about a desperate increase in the rate of releases just before a crash.

From what i can see it's basically a return to third edition with all  the added guff included in the rulebook as ..well, added guff really.
rulebook will be 3 separate books, rules, hobby and fluff.
2 types of army list , unbound (anything you have, throw it down.) or battle worn (new FoC, less freedom as unbound but with added bonuses.)
looks to have alot in common with fantasy in terms of distinct psychic/magic stage ect.

I think the reason is that the designers realized they were building on top of 3rd/4th edition 40k, but hadn't fleshed out these foundations in years and now the game had become a monstrous cludge of special rules and expansions and the whole think was in danger of collapsing.

other unconfirmed rumors talk about mechanics similar to dust and warmahordes (not that i'd recognize them :p) so who knows, we might be seeing a slimmed down core game with extra stuff already in the rules.

Also, no codex rewrites for anything published since 6th, so perhaps the newer codexes that have had people confused (militarium tempestus) will make sense if the new 40k turns out the be scaled down and simpler.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Argonor on May 14, 2014, 05:18:09 PM
and now the game had become a monstrous cludge of special rules and expansions and the whole think was in danger of collapsing.

Isn't that just what happened to each and every edition after RT?
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Modhail on May 15, 2014, 07:40:30 AM
Isn't that just what happened to each and every edition after RT?

Pretty much, but what makes this edition so unique is that they manged to turn it into an unmanageable steaming pile in only two years... It usually took them twice as long, it seems they're getting more efficient at it. o_o
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Cubs on May 15, 2014, 08:26:22 AM
So this new edition is an enema then?
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: beefcake on May 15, 2014, 08:36:19 AM
I just want them to bring back genestealer cults  lol I'd probably buy some GW stuff then.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Gibby on May 15, 2014, 08:37:49 AM
You mean put some imagination back into the fluff rather than constantly write new adventures about different coloured Space Marines?  :o
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: matthais-mouse on May 15, 2014, 12:15:18 PM
Pretty much, but what makes this edition so unique is that they manged to turn it into an unmanageable steaming pile in only two years... It usually took them twice as long, it seems they're getting more efficient at it. o_o

Haha, very true. Lets see if they can ruin this edition in one year  lol

I just want them to bring back genestealer cults  lol I'd probably buy some GW stuff then.

Im 'too young to remember these' but of what I have read and seen they were very fluff heavy. Which is great in my opinion.  :)
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Argonor on May 15, 2014, 01:17:22 PM
So this new edition is an enema then?

More precisely the leftovers after one...   ::)

I just want them to bring back genestealer cults  lol I'd probably buy some GW stuff then.

Im 'too young to remember these' but of what I have read and seen they were very fluff heavy. Which is great in my opinion.  :)

Genestealers were my first experience with the 40K universe, Space Hulk being the first 28mm GW boxed game (with minis) I bought.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: matthais-mouse on May 15, 2014, 01:54:07 PM
I would have loved to play the space hulk games, both new and old versions, but they go for a pretty penny now of what I have seen  :(
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Major_Gilbear on May 15, 2014, 02:47:01 PM
I would have loved to play the space hulk games, both new and old versions, but they go for a pretty penny now of what I have seen  :(
Incursion from Grindhouse Games is mechanically very similar; instead of Space Marine Terminators hunting down Genestealers on an abandoned spaceship however, the theme is a crack team of Allies in mechanically-powered armour hunting down a mad Nazi scientist and his creations in a secret base deep underground/water.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Diakon on May 15, 2014, 07:10:31 PM
Incursion from Grindhouse Games is mechanically very similar; instead of Space Marine Terminators hunting down Genestealers on an abandoned spaceship however, the theme is a crack team of Allies in mechanically-powered armour hunting down a mad Nazi scientist and his creations in a secret base deep underground/water.

I've got both and if push came to shove I'd probably favour Incursion. Just seems to run a little smoother. Also like the fact that you build your force personally rather than, like Space Hulk, having set squads for each scenario.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: matthais-mouse on May 15, 2014, 07:28:08 PM
Incursion from Grindhouse Games is mechanically very similar; instead of Space Marine Terminators hunting down Genestealers on an abandoned spaceship however, the theme is a crack team of Allies in mechanically-powered armour hunting down a mad Nazi scientist and his creations in a secret base deep underground/water.
I've got both and if push came to shove I'd probably favour Incursion. Just seems to run a little smoother. Also like the fact that you build your force personally rather than, like Space Hulk, having set squads for each scenario.

Thanks for the info for the other game guys, I shall have a further look into it and see about purchasing a copy of it for me and a few friends to play  :)
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: nic-e on May 15, 2014, 08:15:53 PM
Haha, very true. Lets see if they can ruin this edition in one year  lol

Im 'too young to remember these' but of what I have read and seen they were very fluff heavy. Which is great in my opinion.  :)

I'm 19, too young is no excuse. you should spend every second of your free time scraping the internt to gather obscure 40k knowledge. :)
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: matthais-mouse on May 15, 2014, 08:23:30 PM
I'm 19, too young is no excuse. you should spend every second of your free time scraping the internt to gather obscure 40k knowledge. :)

My quest for knowledge on the xenos threats of humanity have been gathered on the T'au, a much closer threat to my homeworld  :D
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Diakon on May 15, 2014, 08:25:03 PM
Thanks for the info for the other game guys, I shall have a further look into it and see about purchasing a copy of it for me and a few friends to play  :)

Worth pointing out though that there are no mini's in the Incursion box. Just card stand ins. Doesn't bother me too much but you should know. Also the line of miniatures is really nice if you go that road.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: matthais-mouse on May 15, 2014, 08:49:30 PM
Worth pointing out though that there are no mini's in the Incursion box. Just card stand ins. Doesn't bother me too much but you should know. Also the line of miniatures is really nice if you go that road.

More minis for the expanding collection  lol I would buy the minis eventually but the card stand ins would be fine for learning the game.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: beefcake on May 16, 2014, 05:30:16 AM
I had the 2nd ed(?) tyranids army book. I poured over the genestealer cult list that was in that a lot. Ended up collecting the Tyranids though. Still have an old school tyranid army.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Momotaro on May 17, 2014, 11:21:16 PM
Thanks for the info for the other game guys, I shall have a further look into it and see about purchasing a copy of it for me and a few friends to play  :)

There's also Level 7: Omega Protocol from Privateer Press.  It's a complete boardgame with all the minis in soft plastic.  Game tiles are lovely, and each of the "marine" characters have a range of special abilities and equipment options, so there's a little more depth.

The core mechanic involves "Adrenaline" action points - any point spent by the marines is passed to the monster player, who can trigger special ations or reinforcements with them.  So it's a balance between moving in quietly and going in all guns blazing.  It's very, very good...
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: matthais-mouse on May 18, 2014, 12:05:52 AM
There's also Level 7: Omega Protocol from Privateer Press.  It's a complete boardgame with all the minis in soft plastic.  Game tiles are lovely, and each of the "marine" characters have a range of special abilities and equipment options, so there's a little more depth.

The core mechanic involves "Adrenaline" action points - any point spent by the marines is passed to the monster player, who can trigger special ations or reinforcements with them.  So it's a balance between moving in quietly and going in all guns blazing.  It's very, very good...

Now this one caught my cousins attention so I believe he shall be purchasing a copy. Which means I get to play it too haha. Thanks for all the info again everyone  :)
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: nic-e on May 18, 2014, 06:28:07 PM
rulebook is up for preorder.
£50 for 3 books in a nice sleeve.one is art and hobby stuff, one is fluff, the other is rules.
designs are nice, light and modern, a pleasant departure from the skulls and hammers of the last couple of editions.

does anyone else think that £50, whilst expensive, is actually not too bad for a nice set of books ?
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: YPU on May 18, 2014, 07:02:24 PM
does anyone else think that £50, whilst expensive, is actually not too bad for a nice set of books ?
Its not cheap, but honestly I buy a lot of books in that price/page range, both hobby related and otherwise.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: OSHIROmodels on May 18, 2014, 07:08:52 PM
does anyone else think that £50, whilst expensive, is actually not too bad for a nice set of books ?

Not really, I'll quite happily spend a fortune on a book if I think it's worth it (I got the Star Wars Chronicles for £100, bargin  :D )

cheers

James
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Vermis on May 18, 2014, 08:12:25 PM
does anyone else think that £50, whilst expensive, is actually not too bad for a nice set of books ?

Well, there's that old chestnut about a book and it's cover...
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: pixelgeek on May 18, 2014, 09:57:41 PM
does anyone else think that £50, whilst expensive, is actually not too bad for a nice set of books ?

Its $100 in Canada and it seems like a rather crass cash grab. Two of the three books are fluff and its one thing to charge people for art and/or fluff on its own but to make them a required part of the rules is pretty sh*tty.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: carlos13th on May 18, 2014, 10:01:09 PM
Unless there is a way to buy the rules separately its still £50 for the rule book. Splitting what would have been in one book into three but making you buy them all at once and then saying "But now you get three books for the price of one" is not providing value.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: nic-e on May 18, 2014, 10:04:12 PM
Unless there is a way to buy the rules separately its still £50 for the rule book. Splitting what would have been in one book into three but making you buy them all at once and then saying "But now you get three books for the price of one" is not providing value.

I'm not saying it's value because it's 3 books, im saying it seems cheap given games workshops history of charging a left nut for rulebooks.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Cubs on May 18, 2014, 10:10:59 PM
I dunno. If I was dead set on the game and wanted to treat myself, I'd save up for the £50 and think of it as a naughty indulgence. It's not extortionate if you look at it like that I guess, but it would put me off giving it a try if I wasn't a 100% fan.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: carlos13th on May 18, 2014, 10:50:18 PM
I'm not saying it's value because it's 3 books, im saying it seems cheap given games workshops history of charging a left nut for rulebooks.

But isn't it still more expensive than the 6th edition rule book was? by about a tenner if I am not mistaken.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: beefcake on May 19, 2014, 02:10:43 AM
Yeah but that was 2 years ago. We're talking GW inflation here  lol
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Major_Gilbear on May 19, 2014, 08:54:33 AM
Unless there is a way to buy the rules separately its still £50 for the rule book. Splitting what would have been in one book into three but making you buy them all at once and then saying "But now you get three books for the price of one" is not providing value.

This.

The only advantage I can see to the three volumes over one is that you don't need to bring the other two with you when you go anywhere for a game.

Yeah but that was 2 years ago. We're talking GW inflation here  lol

I thought that 6E was £50 as well?

The only thing I noticed as "better value" was that the digital editions are finally (slightly) cheaper than the dead-tree versions.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Modhail on May 19, 2014, 09:17:04 AM
..., I'd save up for the £50 and think of it as a naughty indulgence.
Well, if I had £50 surplus to requirements, I could think of a whole host of naughty indulgences to spend it on, before I'd consider a GW book...*  :D
And that despite having been a long time fan and a compulsive completist who owns at least the starter set/core rules of all previous editions.


*:Don't worry, almost all would involve either little toy men or support/reference material for little toy men anyway...
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Argonor on May 19, 2014, 09:48:42 AM
Well, if I had £50 surplus to requirements, I could think of a whole host of naughty indulgences to spend it on, before I'd consider a GW book...*  :D
And that despite having been a long time fan and a compulsive completist who owns at least the starter set/core rules of all previous editions.


*:Don't worry, almost all would involve either little toy men or support/reference material for little toy men anyway...

I have most rulebooks up to.... 4th or 5th Ed. (not sure), after which I simply gave up, realizing that they'll never modernize the mechanics in any noteworthy fashion. Money dearly wasted. I've played the game 3 or 4 time tops in all those years.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Major_Gilbear on May 19, 2014, 10:15:19 AM
[...] I simply gave up, realizing that they'll never modernize the mechanics in any noteworthy fashion.

I don't think that's the writers' fault though; I remember both Tuomas Pirinen and Alessio Cavatore wanting to change core WHFB rules quite fundamentally and were basically told "no" by GW.

Money dearly wasted. I've played the game 3 or 4 time tops in all those years.

Well, not totally wasted; as long as the people you play with are happy to play whatever edition you have the books for, the rules are still "valid". In fact, I'd say that pretty much all editions (bar 4th Edition, which was a particularly broken mess) are equally okay in this respect.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Argonor on May 19, 2014, 10:27:38 AM
I don't think that's the writers' fault though; I remember both Tuomas Pirinen and Alessio Cavatore wanting to change core WHFB rules quite fundamentally and were basically told "no" by GW.

The end result is the same, or have I missed something?

Quote
Well, not totally wasted; as long as the people you play with are happy to play whatever edition you have the books for, the rules are still "valid". In fact, I'd say that pretty much all editions (bar 4th Edition, which was a particularly broken mess) are equally okay in this respect.

Buying expensive rulebooks for a system you don't IS a waste of money. I don't play the game, and have only played less than a handful of games over the years. Even my regular gaming buddy who's been stubbornly holding on to a couple of armies, gave up playing the current (2-years old) edition (is it 5th? In that case I have up to 4th).

Stupid of me to keep hoping they'd up their game, but, well, especially before the interweb, not much else that GW stuff was easily available, and with AC writing... 3rd?... edition, I had my hopes up for a simpler, more fluent game (which, in fact, I think it was, until they started messing things up with all the special rules in the expansions).
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Major_Gilbear on May 19, 2014, 10:53:36 AM
The end result is the same, or have I missed something?

You haven't missed anything. However, I mention it as buying and then complaining that editions don't change much is a given - and not just because the people who write the rules disagree with you.

Buying expensive rulebooks for a system you don't IS a waste of money. I don't play the game, and have only played less than a handful of games over the years. Even my regular gaming buddy who's been stubbornly holding on to a couple of armies, gave up playing the current (2-years old) edition (is it 5th? In that case I have up to 4th).

Stupid of me to keep hoping they'd up their game, but, well, especially before the interweb, not much else that GW stuff was easily available, and with AC writing... 3rd?... edition, I had my hopes up for a simpler, more fluent game (which, in fact, I think it was, until they started messing things up with all the special rules in the expansions).

The current (just pre-released this weekend) version is 7th. So you would have up to 5th edition I think.

If you liked 3rd edition, then stick to that. I liked the "3.5" edition, which was basically 3E with fixed CC rules. Games were fast and the rules were pretty streamlined.

Buying more editions in the hope for radical change though is not wise, as you already note. And after the negative feedback (to put it politely) that GW received when it significantly streamlined and rebalanced WHFB (6E), 40k (3E) and Epic (E:40k), I don't blame them for wanting to preserve the stupid level of pointless rules detail that their main player base seems to demand.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Col. Aubrey Bagshot on May 19, 2014, 10:59:47 AM

If you liked 3rd edition, then stick to that. I liked the "3.5" edition, which was basically 3E with fixed CC rules.


What he said!
You dont always have to play the lastest rule set.
And as the are now so many GW rulesets, especially with all the newer supplements, just agree on a set, and use those....

I would argue any set between 3rd - 5th should still work very well for most freindly games.... Or even go back as far as RT if you want the original insane antics of a true period ruleset!
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: FramFramson on May 20, 2014, 08:42:37 PM
So I was curious about playing with the GW technical paints, you know, the ones introduced only about 6 months ago. I know you can get the same effect using homebrewed material, but I felt like giving them a try.

The closest game store to me was out, so I was calling around looking to see who had them all in. Well, one store I rang up said they were limited edition and were now discontinued. I did eventually find a shop that had some, but that still threw me way off.

WTF?!? Who makes limited edition paint!?!?! That's got to be one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard of. Even by GW standards!
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Argonor on May 20, 2014, 08:49:11 PM

WTF?!? Who makes limited edition paint!?!?! That's got to be one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard of. Even by GW standards!

Everything these days has to be 'limited ed.', 'kickstarter exclusive', and what have we... All designed to force us to make rash buying decisions.

But yes, the stupidity doesn't seem to come to an end. I own only a few of the new(est) GW paints, and I'm replacing my old ones with Foundry and Vallejo, not even bothering to go to the local hobby stores to buy paint anymore, as it is cheaper for me to buy online (from Miniaturicum), including postage, per bottle/pot.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: FramFramson on May 20, 2014, 09:06:33 PM
Sure. I'm not necessarily going to run out and buy these. I know some of them are garbage (the rust in particular is just a thick orange drybrush paint and doesn't mimic rust well at all) and you can do better elsewhere (everyone seems to agree that Tamiya clear red beats Blood for the Blood God), but some like the crackling earth and copper corrosion seemed worthwhile for a test.

But why buy them if I can't get more? If I get attached to them, I'll be out of luck later. Better to just learn the hand techniques.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: pixelgeek on May 20, 2014, 11:41:00 PM
WTF?!? Who makes limited edition paint!?!?! That's got to be one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard of. Even by GW standards!

I have heard nothing similar about these paints.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: weismonsters on May 20, 2014, 11:50:09 PM
I am fortunate for paint now that my local model shop sells Vallejo. They also seem to be developing a "technical" range but i havent tried anything much so i cant say how it compares.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Vermis on May 21, 2014, 12:02:49 AM
WTF?!? Who makes limited edition paint!?!?! That's got to be one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard of. Even by GW standards!

I read Warseer: I'm almost desensitized to GW's ridiculous things. Almost.

but some like the crackling earth and copper corrosion seemed worthwhile for a test.

Crackling earth? Haven't looked twice at the technical range, but I take it that ends up like dried, cracked mud? You can get acrylic crackle medium or crackle glaze for that. And I assume copper corrosion caters to the penchant for slapping bright teal verdigris on any vaguely metallic surface these days...
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: FramFramson on May 21, 2014, 02:15:32 AM
Absolutely right on the crackle medium. I decided that I want to try the verdigris and the Typhus Corrosion. The other four can be quite easily duplicated using regular materials/mediums or are available in a superior form from a different colour
- The rust is just a drybrush orange and doesn't even flow into cracks.
- Tamiya clear red is vastly better than the GW blood, by almost all the accounts of anyone who's used both.
- The Nurgle pus can be done with some ugly looking green and a little bit of heavy gloss/gel medium
- The earth crackle can be obtained using any decent artist's crackle medium (I realized I would only ever use this on terrain, not bases or minis, so I'd need larger quantities anyway and quality isn't as important)

I've done verdigris myself - and quite a decent job too, I think! - but I liked the nice variation in tones the GW one seems to be giving.  

The Typhus is the one which is a sort of a near-rust dirt and corrosion, with patches of pitting on the metal. THIS is the one that I really want to try, because this looks like the only one that genuinely gives an effect which would be very difficult and time-consuming for me to do on my own:

(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-I_iQ0HEWNlI/UokBgbPVKRI/AAAAAAAAAiU/99tsNVj6f2M/s1600/CSM+-+Typhus+Corrosion.jpg)
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: FramFramson on May 21, 2014, 02:18:40 AM
I have heard nothing similar about these paints.

I can't find anything on the website (and I think you can still order it direct from GW), but two of the stores I called said it was a limited edition thing and that they can't order it through their regular dealer channels.

If that's wrong well, GW should probably be making that clearer, because it seems a number of stores think it's true.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Major_Gilbear on May 21, 2014, 01:42:25 PM
Some GW products are limited in that you have to buy them directly from GW in one way or another. For example, when a new wave of releases is launched, all shops can but "x" number of each for the launch; thereafter, independent shops can only order specifics from that wave to stock regularly.

There was another douche-bag reason as well, to do with how GW handles independent retailer accounts; basically some products are considered "special stock" or such, and shops are very severely limited in how much/often they can stock them, and have limits set that are partially linked to how much "regular stock" they buy as well. I heard that many bigger independent retailers set up several companies all under the same ownership in order to try and get around this issue - essentially, each company has an account and is treated separately, and this lets bigger retailers obtain enough Failcast products and other such "special stock" to reasonably supply their customers with.

Its one way in which GW use independent stores to broaden their market, but at the same time force many players to subsequently come directly to GW as only they stock the complete range (in theory at least).

All that aside, I have heard nothing about the "new" technical paints being limited, so any GW-owned store should have them in stock.

Typhus Corrosion... I think you can get artists' acrylic mediums to mimic that effect too (but in any colour you want).

I have been totally unimpressed with GW's most recent paint range, and it seems to have be squarely aimed at people who just use GW paint and that's it. If people like, then great. Me, I'll keep avoiding it and saving money.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: YPU on May 21, 2014, 02:52:23 PM
The Verdigris is pretty decent, its like a thick wash, and dries very dusty. im sure there are better products out there but this one was easy to obtain anf does the job.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: nic-e on May 21, 2014, 07:48:56 PM
the crackle base is great as long as you shake it and dry it with a hairdryer.It's tempting to use crackle glaze but honestly alot of it is crap, and even the good stuff it temperamental.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: YPU on June 13, 2014, 08:33:40 PM
I believe they actually sell the cultists separately in one of those snap fit mini box kinda things.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Diakon on June 13, 2014, 10:47:14 PM
Yeah that's right. It's £6 or £7 ish.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Major_Gilbear on June 16, 2014, 05:01:35 PM
quick question.

are those starter box figs of the chaos cultists and warriors exclusive to that set?

Everything in the starter box is exclusive to the starter box *except* that a few of the basic cultists are also available as a little 6-model top-up set separately.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: YPU on June 18, 2014, 08:39:25 AM
Generally speaking the all the recent starter sets are testing in one way or another. Once the new edition hits there is bound to be a new starter set and the current one might drop in price I guess? happened last times.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Too Bo Coo on June 18, 2014, 11:53:47 AM
anyone have a link, I cant seem to find them... :(
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Major_Gilbear on June 18, 2014, 12:03:35 PM
Link (http://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/Chaos-Space-Marines-Cultists#) as requested! ;)
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Vermis on June 18, 2014, 12:30:14 PM
Generally speaking the all the recent starter sets are testing in one way or another. Once the new edition hits there is bound to be a new starter set and the current one might drop in price I guess? happened last times.

The new edition has hit and last time I was in a GW shop (last week) the 6th ed Dark Vengeance boxes are still there at full price.

Not to mention that I've never known a significant GW product to drop in price. Unless you mean second hand or indy shops trying to dump old stock. The only unusual thing about it is that I gathered starter sets for previous editions just... went away. Being packed, as they have been as long as I've known, with rulebooks for their particular editions.

But then what I hear about 7th ed is that it's a few minor tweaks of 6th, a psychic phase based on unpopular magic mechanics from an old WHFB edition, and the infamous 'unbound' armies.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Too Bo Coo on June 18, 2014, 12:52:17 PM
Link (http://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/Chaos-Space-Marines-Cultists#) as requested! ;)

Cheers! Ok, that's what I found as well.  I have not looked in a while, but I think I have this set from a few years ago.  It was a good deal if I recall.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: OSHIROmodels on June 18, 2014, 01:00:02 PM
Link (http://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/Chaos-Space-Marines-Cultists#) as requested! ;)

Forgive the rather silly question, but is that £6 for five figures or one  ???

cheers

James
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Dr. The Viking on June 18, 2014, 01:11:32 PM
Forgive the rather silly question, but is that £6 for five figures or one  ???

cheers

James


Hmm, I'm guessing it's just the box. No contents.

Maybe an info flyer about the nearest outlet too.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: OSHIROmodels on June 18, 2014, 01:15:48 PM

Hmm, I'm guessing it's just the box. No contents.

Maybe an info flyer about the nearest outlet too.

 lol

cheers

James
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: carlos13th on June 18, 2014, 04:24:32 PM
It is a box of five models. One of the few things from GW which decently priced.

Though Dr Viking will probably be correct within 6 months by the next price rise.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: YPU on June 18, 2014, 05:33:26 PM

Not to mention that I've never known a significant GW product to drop in price. Unless you mean second hand or indy shops trying to dump old stock. The only unusual thing about it is that I gathered starter sets for previous editions just... went away. Being packed, as they have been as long as I've known, with rulebooks for their particular editions.

Indy shop naturally, pretty cheap and GW don't go together well do they now.

Hmm, I'm guessing it's just the box. No contents.
lol lol
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Argonor on June 18, 2014, 10:51:42 PM
The few times I played 40K, we played it 'unbound'. Actually it's how RT was meant to be played. So now they're charging us to tell us we can do whatever we want with the models we purchased (I HAVE met some die-hards that couldn't get their minds around that fact, obvious as it should be to anyone with an IQ above 75)?
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: nic-e on June 18, 2014, 11:35:29 PM
The few times I played 40K, we played it 'unbound'. Actually it's how RT was meant to be played. So now they're charging us to tell us we can do whatever we want with the models we purchased (I HAVE met some die-hards that couldn't get their minds around that fact, obvious as it should be to anyone with an IQ above 75)?

Wait, you mean people actually play it with the massive organized armies? i don't think i've ever owned a full legal army  lol

Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: OSHIROmodels on June 19, 2014, 04:07:36 AM
It was always too bloody hard to work out a legal force that wouldn't get wiped off the table in the first couple of turns  ::) lol

I do detest those types that can memorise the rules back to front (including all army lists) and then know the exact way they are going to beat you and in what turn :-[

What's the point; it's not a game, then it's just a predetermined movement of toys on a board with a predetermined outcome (not to me however who plays for the sake of the game. Play up! Play up!).

Anyway, no point in ranting about it now, I'm going to be selling the last of my newer 40k stuff very soon anyway.

cheers

James
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: FramFramson on June 19, 2014, 04:28:19 AM
It is a box of five models. One of the few things from GW which decently priced.

Though Dr Viking will probably be correct within 6 months by the next price rise.

Nono, it turns out it's the flyer that costs £6.  lol
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: carlos13th on June 19, 2014, 04:39:37 AM
Nono, it turns out it's the flyer that costs £6.  lol

I remember being utterly confused on a 40k thread once when people were getting really excited about the new £25 space marine flyers. Didn't realise until much later they meant to the aircraft type models.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: matthais-mouse on June 24, 2014, 08:29:10 AM
I shall not lie that my introduction to wargaming was through games workshop,  but my modelling started a lot longer ago with model railways as a cousin of mine is obsessed with trains that over the years was spread to me.

As Nic-e said on another thread here, some of GW larger kits could well be used as terrain and monsters all in one if broken down, I really like the title of the thread and could see the keanu reeves meme saying it hahaha  lol whoch I do believe was the intention of the title.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: nic-e on June 24, 2014, 11:37:17 AM
I shall not lie that my introduction to wargaming was through games workshop,  but my modelling started a lot longer ago with model railways as a cousin of mine is obsessed with trains that over the years was spread to me.

As Nic-e said on another thread here, some of GW larger kits could well be used as terrain and monsters all in one if broken down, I really like the title of the thread and could see the keanu reeves meme saying it hahaha  lol whoch I do believe was the intention of the title.

What,me? Making an internet reference?  never!   lol

But yes, the larger fantasy kits (mainly the walking alter types)  all have a variety of large parts and several unique characters included,  which i think could be used individually to make a whole heap of goodies.so suddenly a £40 monster such as the dark elf blood cauldron  becomes 4 dark elves, a medusa monster, a bunch of dungeon scenery including alter,cauldron and mirror,and a giant khaine monster.suddenly the price begins to look reasonable when you break the model down to its constituent parts.

p
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: weismonsters on June 24, 2014, 05:39:34 PM
This is an interesting way to look at it. There is very little context appropriate usable equiment in their kits. I was the other day converting a medic and orderly from old Perry imperial guardsmen and it really hit home that there was nothing on my chaos marine sprues I have lying around that was in any way resembling equipment. Some older imperial guard bits i got off ebay were a bit better and some devastator marine sprues had a few things, but generally the "bits" are not equipment at all.

But as you suggest here, if one thinks of the bits more in terms of architectural adornments, then suddenly there could be a use for it all. For example I could make a fence of spikes with skulls impaled on them. Or maybe a wall of skulls with spikes on top.

Why would a chariot have a mirror and a cauldron? It is beyond my feeble understanding.  But yet if we take them out of the chariot and put them in a room, which is the more conventional location for such trappings, suddenly things start to make sense. What is that chaos warshrine all about? Seems to be a bunch of random incongruous things thrown together. But maybe if we take it apart maybe we can make a nice trellis or something...


 
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: weismonsters on June 24, 2014, 06:22:32 PM
But to be more serious for a moment I dont really disagree with you nice-e. In terms of the quantity and the production quality of the plastics, then the question of cost isnt so clear. Like with the recent imperial knight, I think many people decided in the end that it was pretty good value.

Problem I always have with this stuff is not the price, but the design element and the corporate strategy behind it. They are designed to be as non-generic as pos, to minimise compatibility with anything else. and then there is the planned obsolescence built into everything of course. all the stuff we have discussed ad infinitum here, but I´ve said it again.

I remember reading an article by a fantasy author who freelanced for GW during the end of the Ansell era and he was saying that the highups at that time were morbidly obsessed with their intellectual property. They just took it to its logical extreme in recent years. The strange "architectural" designs of the models are so singularly odd that I suppose it defines them uniquely as Warhammer.



Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: nic-e on June 24, 2014, 11:07:12 PM
But to be more serious for a moment I dont really disagree with you nice-e. In terms of the quantity and the production quality of the plastics, then the question of cost isnt so clear. Like with the recent imperial knight, I think many people decided in the end that it was pretty good value.

Problem I always have with this stuff is not the price, but the design element and the corporate strategy behind it. They are designed to be as non-generic as pos, to minimise compatibility with anything else. and then there is the planned obsolescence built into everything of course. all the stuff we have discussed ad infinitum here, but I´ve said it again.

I remember reading an article by a fantasy author who freelanced for GW during the end of the Ansell era and he was saying that the highups at that time were morbidly obsessed with their intellectual property. They just took it to its logical extreme in recent years. The strange "architectural" designs of the models are so singularly odd that I suppose it defines them uniquely as Warhammer.





well for me that isn't too much of an issue since i like to game in the warhammer world, just not with the warhammer rules.

I suppose i'm looking at it as making molehills out of mountains, breaking down one rather large ungainly thing into several tactile elements that help create a nice thematic set.

Taking the dark elves again, i don't like that model, but i like BITS of it. i wouldn't buy it as "blood cauldron of khaine" but i would buy it as "dark elf cult dungeon pack" .

I think really of course the aesthetics are not going to change if you brake the model into chunks, but it does help you appreciate the many design elements that go into these kits individually, which is often hard when you have an antire grab bag of textures and shapes crammed into one chunky walking church.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: beefcake on June 25, 2014, 12:14:37 AM
I quite like that medusa model. A bit too much blood on it though but a nice piece.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: nic-e on June 25, 2014, 12:21:12 AM
I quite like that medusa model. A bit too much blood on it though but a nice piece.

Paint it up as bile or venom?
i think it would be a great end boss.

"Adventurers must defeat the lillith the serpent lich and her dark cult of blood maidens before they can sacrifice the princess and summon the dark god khaines soul into his stone idol."
And right there you've spent £35 on the core of a final dungeon for a short rpg campaign, which to me is worth the price if its all good fun :)
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Dr Mathias on June 29, 2014, 03:38:10 PM
My understanding is that the Perrys have left GW. Pretty interesting.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Too Bo Coo on June 29, 2014, 03:40:49 PM
 Now that is interesting!  It's hard to think of GW and not think of the Perry's, at least for their long period of contributions to the various lines, even if it was less today.  On the other side, more time for them to expand their own business.  That cant be a bad thing.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: grant on June 29, 2014, 03:45:12 PM
My understanding is that the Perrys have left GW. Pretty interesting.

That's probably the most interesting news this thread has generated!

Wonder what prompted it - a bad thing for GW, a great thing for historical gamers!
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: OSHIROmodels on June 29, 2014, 05:23:48 PM
Weren't the Perrys only working on LotR (and Hobbit) figures?

This'll surely give them more time to work on their own thing... Win Win  :D

cheers

James
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Argonor on June 29, 2014, 07:18:47 PM
Weren't the Perrys only working on LotR (and Hobbit) figures?

I think that's what they were doing these later years - earlier on they sculpted a lot of minis for GW, especially Bretonnians (surprise!).

But yes, they seem to have a good thing going on with their own ranges, and that's not too shabby!
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: nic-e on June 29, 2014, 09:12:38 PM
i contacted them once asking if there was any chance of them releasing fantasy lines as well as historical ones, and they said that they couldn't due to their contract with games workshop.
Obviously historicals are where their hearts are , but it'd be all kinds of nice to see them release a couple of fantasy kits to spice up the war of the roses.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: FramFramson on June 30, 2014, 02:22:42 AM
You know, I'd actually thought they had stopped working for GW a few years back!  ;D
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: carlos13th on June 30, 2014, 02:28:17 AM
i contacted them once asking if there was any chance of them releasing fantasy lines as well as historical ones, and they said that they couldn't due to their contract with games workshop.
Obviously historicals are where their hearts are , but it'd be all kinds of nice to see them release a couple of fantasy kits to spice up the war of the roses.

Surely the non compete would only be for X amount of time, I doubt it would be permeant.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: beefcake on June 30, 2014, 02:37:52 AM
I would imagine if they aren't working for them any longer that would cease a contract holding them to this. I doubt GW would put that into a contract for fear of driving them away earlier. (I say doubt, but wouldn't be surprised if they did)
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Cubs on June 30, 2014, 05:58:51 PM
You know, I'd actually thought they had stopped working for GW a few years back!  ;D

Me too.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: YPU on June 30, 2014, 08:52:25 PM
I would imagine if they aren't working for them any longer that would cease a contract holding them to this. I doubt GW would put that into a contract for fear of driving them away earlier. (I say doubt, but wouldn't be surprised if they did)

How would that even work? An employment contract not allowing you to produce a particular type of product after you stop being employed by said company?
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: grant on June 30, 2014, 09:03:56 PM
How would that even work? An employment contract not allowing you to produce a particular type of product after you stop being employed by said company?

Yes. That's a "non-compete clause". There's a time limit attached to them, so that you can't crush your former employers with your mad skills.

Happens all the time in big business. Or small business. Even in the miniatures business.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Mr.J on June 30, 2014, 09:27:03 PM
On Perry's fb page:

Quote
We are aware that there are rumours flying around that we have left Games Workshop! Thought we should set the record straight and let you all know that…we have! After 36 years, man and boy, working on Warhammer, 40K and of course, for the last 15 years LotR and the Hobbit we are now able to focus our energy on our historical ranges.This means more time to dedicate to Perry Miniatures, and of course Mr Jackson who we continue to make 54mm WW1 figures for. We had an excellent evening on Friday at The Trip to Jerusalem with GW, and ex-GW, colleagues and friends who got us very, very drunk - cheers!
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: OSHIROmodels on June 30, 2014, 10:57:46 PM
Well, from the proverbial horses mouth  :)

I wonder what they have in store  8)

cheers

James
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: nic-e on June 30, 2014, 11:02:07 PM
Last 15 years, i started with the lord of the rings miniatures .....does that mean I really have been collecting miniatures for 15 years?!??! Im not even 20...-_-
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: carlos13th on June 30, 2014, 11:41:54 PM
Wonder if they would ever do Samurai in plastics.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: OSHIROmodels on July 01, 2014, 05:45:21 AM
Wonder if they would ever do Samurai in plastics.

Bloody awesome if they did  :D

cheers

James
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: carlos13th on July 01, 2014, 06:05:10 AM
They would blow the WGF stuff out of the water thats for sure.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: beefcake on July 01, 2014, 06:12:54 AM
I wants perry fantasy stuff!!!!
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Dr Mathias on July 01, 2014, 06:21:31 AM
Here's an old thread on TMP regarding Perry plastic samurai. At the time I didn't think samurai could be done at all (mainly because of the lacing) with two part molds. I think the method WGF used to split the legs did a pretty good job of addressing the lacing problem, so they proved me wrong.

http://theminiaturespage.com/boards/msg.mv?id=221803

It would be nice to see Perry do a plastic Asian set but I'm not going to hold my breath- I'm sure they have other priorities. Plus at this point I'm suspecting its Renedra that's holding back the Perry plastics.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: grant on July 01, 2014, 06:26:05 AM
Maybe the solution is bigger tooling. I've heard that Renedra, as awesome as they are, are the bottleneck in plastic production.

Perry Toolings? ;)
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Vermis on July 01, 2014, 10:36:24 AM
How would that even work?

From what I hear, it doesn't.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: westwaller on July 01, 2014, 12:37:53 PM
Quote
That's probably the most interesting news this thread has generated!

Wonder what prompted it - a bad thing for GW, a great thing for historical gamers!

I was thinking the same thing, Grant. I don't really know who is left to do the sculpting at GW now... As for the question of whether or not they might do fantasy figures, I think they probably left GW to concentrate on their historical stuff, aside from all the other stuff...

Hopefully they will finish off all those part completed lines, such as the Crusades range, expanding it to third and fourth and beyond!

Although a box of plastic third/fourth crusade knights and men at arms would be very very good :)

A bit off topic, but why are some manufacturers shy of telling us who sculpted their lines? The Reaper stuff says on the labels.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Dr. Zombie on July 01, 2014, 12:48:27 PM
A bit off topic, but why are some manufacturers shy of telling us who sculpted their lines? The Reaper stuff says on the labels.

To promote and strengthen their own brand I think. GW does not want to sell Brian Nelson Orks they want to sell GW Orks.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Captain Blood on July 01, 2014, 12:54:19 PM
Because some companies (notably Foundry) got into problems by building up 'celebrity sculptors', promoted alongside the ranges they had designed - only to find that having boosted the reputations of said sculptors, several of them promptly buggered off and started their own rival labels... And who can blame them?

So yes, it's great for the wargamer or collector to know the provenance of a particular range or model, but I've noticed an increasing trend over the last few years for larger miniatures manufacturers to NOT signpost who the sculptor is. Or at least, not to promote it actively - which is what many of them used to do a few years back.

In some cases, the style is so distinctive, it's pretty obvious of course... (Mr Hicks! ;))
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Vermis on July 01, 2014, 09:56:41 PM
I was thinking the same thing, Grant. I don't really know who is left to do the sculpting at GW now...

Jes Goodwin, Brian Nelson, Seb Perbett... I wonder if Steve Buddle and Alex Hedström are still there too?
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: nic-e on July 01, 2014, 10:33:21 PM
Jes Goodwin, Brian Nelson, Seb Perbett... I wonder if Steve Buddle and Alex Hedström are still there too?

Are we going to be seeing ALOT more foot on rock now that the perries have taken their ability to create matching length legs away?
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: grant on July 01, 2014, 10:55:44 PM
Jes Goodwin, Brian Nelson, Seb Perbett... I wonder if Steve Buddle and Alex Hedström are still there too?

Didn't Buddle just start in the past year?

Goodwin is the Grand Old Man there now... odd, isn't it? I'm pretty sure he pre-dates angels on.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: westwaller on July 02, 2014, 02:49:31 PM
I have to admit, that I have not really known who sculpts for GW for ages now I gave up on WD in about 1996 I think.. Thanks for all your interesting replies on this subject :).

 I do remember that they always used to tell you who had sculpted the latest FANTASTIC miniature, and the adverts/new releases bit at the back always had 'Sculpted by Jes Goodwin/The Perry Twins...etc written underneath the miniatures.

I get the bit about GW Orks and not Brian Nelson Orks, but it seems to limit the credit that the sculptor gets, which is a shame.

I personally think The Perry twins, Mr Hicks and Nick Collier have very distinctive styles. Not that others are not as good, it is just I can usually recognise the work of the above guys quite easily.

I guess it is time to open up 'The Perry Speculation Thread'. I hope they still choose to follow their own path and pursue the lines that they want to do- it can get frustrating... but it is good to see creative people driven by what they want for a change!!
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: FramFramson on July 03, 2014, 12:23:11 AM
I googled for "Perry twins" and got this:

(http://img295.imageshack.us/img295/8201/activatemybodyallmixes2la9.jpg)

Should I be worried?  lol
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: carlos13th on July 03, 2014, 12:34:09 AM
Its their new boyband range
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: grant on July 03, 2014, 03:05:16 AM
I googled for "Perry twins" and got this:

(http://img295.imageshack.us/img295/8201/activatemybodyallmixes2la9.jpg)

Should I be worried?  lol

That's hot.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: FramFramson on July 03, 2014, 04:24:08 AM
They sculpt and sing! I never knew they were so talented!
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: joroas on July 03, 2014, 05:58:19 AM
...and Katie Perry?
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: OSHIROmodels on July 03, 2014, 06:36:01 AM
Should I be worried?  lol

Possibly not but the rest of us are  lol

cheers

James
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Pijlie on July 07, 2014, 08:49:38 AM
No wargaming blog would be complete without referring to Games Workshop.

The company has as many fans as detractors, but it can hardly be denied that GW has had an enormous influence on the wargaming hobby. Many current wargamers started with GW games, even if they no longer play them. And a large part of the "new batch" still enters the hobby through GW's products. Still any topic dealing with GW in general terms, their products or their policies risks erupting into bitter disputes very soon.

(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-54RrV6oKZn4/T4tmSj1S5xI/AAAAAAAABBo/2rm9XcAlryc/s1600/bloodbowl.jpg)

There are as many reasons why this is so as there are people discussing GW, so I will not attempt summaries and analyses. Instead, I will just examine my own opinion. It's a …..

Interested? Read more on my blog http://pijlieblog.blogspot.nl/2014/07/gw-guilty-as-charged.html (http://pijlieblog.blogspot.nl/2014/07/gw-guilty-as-charged.html)
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Archie on July 07, 2014, 10:27:16 PM
Excellent blog post.

And with a sad heart I have to agree with you.

I remember in one edition of White Dwarf getting a free hex game which was set on the Emperors Battle Barge at the time that Horus rebelled. It was a lovely little game which I happily played many times and was a brilliantly creative freebie. It made me happy to be a subscriber. (Sadly I no longer have the game)

I cant remember the last time GW made me feel just that ... happy. In a carefree generous way. Happy that their figures are nice after Ive dropped £20-30 on them yes but thats not carefree happy as a hobby supplier shoukd make me feel. Thats a 'I gave you good money so give me a good product' happy.

There is no generosity from them, not even within their creativity.  The story lines stand still. The over the top grimdark is suffocating.  This is a game, it should be fun.

But I digress, I recommend the blog article. Well written and with good images.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Too Bo Coo on July 08, 2014, 11:44:08 AM
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/OOP-Warhammer-40k-Space-Marines-Limited-Edition-Metal-Thunderhawk-Gunship-BNIB-/321436216164?clk_rvr_id=663744121857&mfe=share&mpt=08_07_2014_11_07_30813942269

Seriously?  This butt head doesnt even include shipping in the nearly 3000,00 price!
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: YPU on July 08, 2014, 11:55:38 AM

I remember in one edition of White Dwarf getting a free hex game which was set on the Emperors Battle Barge at the time that Horus rebelled. It was a lovely little game which I happily played many times and was a brilliantly creative freebie. It made me happy to be a subscriber. (Sadly I no longer have the game)

I remember back when the website would have all these small mini-games on it. I specifically remember a chariot racing game and particularly a skaven pit arena game, including all sorts of interesting "upgrades" and a campaign system.

I had little interest in Skaven up to that point and those rules made me buy a couple of giant rats on whim because those rules were so cool. Seems like a good business model to me. We can all see how a few models for a mini game turn into the starting point for a whole new army. But I would be all right with that strategy working on me.

I feel old and nostalgic, I really shouldn't hang out on a forum with this many old folks.  :D
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: pixelgeek on July 08, 2014, 02:14:00 PM
Seriously?  This butt head doesnt even include shipping in the nearly 3000,00 price!

How are they a "butt head"? Its rare as heck and its even rarer to see one unassembled and complete.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Too Bo Coo on July 08, 2014, 02:28:13 PM
How are they a "butt head"? Its rare as heck and its even rarer to see one unassembled and complete.

Just because something is old or rare does not give it automatic value.  That said, the reason for my observation is simple, if I sell you a toothpick for 5,000,000 and then ask you to pay the shipping, I'm a Butt Head. :D
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: WitchfinderGeneral on July 08, 2014, 03:02:46 PM
And I saw this going for less...

@Pijlie: Nice read! I started with the same games (found Epic and Necromunda more interesting than 40K or WHFB) and I was blown away when I saw that there was MUCH MORE other stuff in the "hobby" than just GW. Then quickly I became fed up with all the people who were trying to tell me that I can ONLY use THIS edition rules and only THAT figures because they are the only right ones and everything else is wrong. I still hate this so much. Especially in fantasy and sci-fi this makes no sense at all.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Vermis on July 08, 2014, 03:13:42 PM
Hmm. Dunno what to make of the assertion that the LotR game was a reskinned Warhammer. From what I've seen it was more different to that, than Necromunda was to 40K.

Otherwise, yeah. For me Epic: Armageddon was an (the) eye-opener to what a real wargame was like.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: pixelgeek on July 08, 2014, 04:08:54 PM
Just because something is old or rare does not give it automatic value.

I would suggest that you probably don't understand the relative rarity of the object in question or its original asking price. Or understand what the word 'rare' means.

Quote
That said, the reason for my observation is simple, if I sell you a toothpick for 5,000,000 and then ask you to pay the shipping, I'm a Butt Head. :D

I think you're just not really making any sense at all.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Too Bo Coo on July 08, 2014, 05:43:25 PM
I would suggest that you probably don't understand the relative rarity of the object in question or its original asking price. Or understand what the word 'rare' means.

I think you're just not really making any sense at all.

That's the Market mate.  If you think it's a deal, have at it!  If I think it's a rip, I save my 3k! win win! :D
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: grant on July 09, 2014, 02:26:03 PM
That's the Market mate.  If you think it's a deal, have at it!  If I think it's a rip, I save my 3k! win win! :D

I think you've got it right TBC. I wouldn't pay 3k for a Thunderbird either! Crazy. There used to be a thread on Hateseer about crazy ebay prices.

A sucker every minute...
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: pixelgeek on July 09, 2014, 03:26:25 PM
A sucker every minute...

I understand that some people don't think the price is appropriate (that is an entirely different discussion) but I really fail to see how the pejoratives are necessary in this case.

Its easy to look down your nose when its something that doesn't interest you or that you don't value but I suspect there are many people in the world who'd think that, for instance, someone was "crazy" for getting custom made decals for a vehicle from a badly written, kid's animated TV show  ;)

My kids are totally jealous BTW  :)

I know that this is the GW bashing thread but the guy that is selling that is a hobbyist and I suspect that if he sells it, that it will be to another hobbyist, so you're both really just casting dispersions at people who are probably pretty much the same as you both.

Maybe just with more money  ;) Although if Grant manages to sell off his insane collection of Wings of War miniatures and expansions that might not be the case. What did you value that collection at again Grant?  ;)
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Major_Gilbear on July 09, 2014, 03:40:32 PM
@ TBC:

Collectables, especially miniatures, are funny things and don't always scale in value as you might expect.

In the case of the metal Thunderhawk, is it better to have it assembled or not? For some, the "pristine" condition is collectable and rare in its own right. For others, the value is similar, because they want to be the first to make that model. For still others, it's a nightmare to assemble, and buying one assembled well is worth a premium.

Adjusted for inflation, the original 1996 asking price of £400.00 would be about £660.00 in today's money.

So, for something which was only cast as 500 sets worldwide, and which has been totally out of production for nearly twenty years, what would that add in value as an iconic collectable model?

The seller you've highlighted is asking for £1,900.00 plus shipping.

There's a chap here (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Warhammer-40k-Limited-Edition-Metal-Space-Marine-Thunderhawk-Gunship-/251425666231?pt=Games_US&hash=item3a8a2334b7) selling one for about £1,200.00. Looks to be pretty much mint.

Another here (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Thunderhawk-Gunship-Metal-with-Box-Warhammer-40k-Games-Workshop-Limited-Edition-/321371685691?pt=UK_Toys_Wargames_RL&hash=item4ad33ec33b) wants £1,000.00 for his, but it's been assembled, and all the other "incidentals" are missing or damaged. Also, I'd be wary of this being a fake (legit box with everything else missing, pre-assembled and primed black... could easily be fake).

Thing is that over the years, I've seen these in various conditions go for a lot less, and also for a lot more.

At 10kg, and being a fairly rare and collectible expensive model (even at the original price of £400!), why should the seller take on the cost of insured signed-for shipping anywhere in the world? What's wrong with just quoting each country? Because he's asking for a high price, he should somehow be "morally obliged" to ship it anywhere in the world for free according to you? Pfft.  ::)
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: grant on July 09, 2014, 03:54:29 PM
Not valued - sold! $1400 is what I got for my Wings of War. Solid! Also, halfway to a Thundehawk!

Now come on pg, get with the spirit and get a bash in. Chicks dig it!
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: pixelgeek on July 09, 2014, 04:19:17 PM
Now come on pg, get with the spirit and get a bash in. Chicks dig it!

I'd try but GW has got to the point of self-parody now.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: grant on July 09, 2014, 05:07:48 PM
I'd try but GW has got to the point of self-parody now.

So true, isn't it?

A bit sad. :(
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: pixelgeek on July 09, 2014, 06:03:27 PM
A bit sad. :(

On a Beasts of War post on Facebook some fellow mentioned that he had recently spent £140 on 40K rules and codexes recently.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: matthais-mouse on July 09, 2014, 06:14:57 PM
On a Beasts of War post on Facebook some fellow mentioned that he had recently spent £140 on 40K rules and codexes recently.

Im still playing 3 editions back, on the VERY RARE occasion I actually game, although if they are 'hard core fanatic's' I suppose paying that on a hobby is normal.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Too Bo Coo on July 09, 2014, 06:27:26 PM
@ TBC:

Collectables, especially miniatures, are funny things and don't always scale in value as you might expect.

In the case of the metal Thunderhawk, is it better to have it assembled or not? For some, the "pristine" condition is collectable and rare in its own right. For others, the value is similar, because they want to be the first to make that model. For still others, it's a nightmare to assemble, and buying one assembled well is worth a premium.

Adjusted for inflation, the original 1996 asking price of £400.00 would be about £660.00 in today's money.

So, for something which was only cast as 500 sets worldwide, and which has been totally out of production for nearly twenty years, what would that add in value as an iconic collectable model?

The seller you've highlighted is asking for £1,900.00 plus shipping.

There's a chap here (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Warhammer-40k-Limited-Edition-Metal-Space-Marine-Thunderhawk-Gunship-/251425666231?pt=Games_US&hash=item3a8a2334b7) selling one for about £1,200.00. Looks to be pretty much mint.

Another here (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Thunderhawk-Gunship-Metal-with-Box-Warhammer-40k-Games-Workshop-Limited-Edition-/321371685691?pt=UK_Toys_Wargames_RL&hash=item4ad33ec33b) wants £1,000.00 for his, but it's been assembled, and all the other "incidentals" are missing or damaged. Also, I'd be wary of this being a fake (legit box with everything else missing, pre-assembled and primed black... could easily be fake).

Thing is that over the years, I've seen these in various conditions go for a lot less, and also for a lot more.

At 10kg, and being a fairly rare and collectible expensive model (even at the original price of £400!), why should the seller take on the cost of insured signed-for shipping anywhere in the world? What's wrong with just quoting each country? Because he's asking for a high price, he should somehow be "morally obliged" to ship it anywhere in the world for free according to you? Pfft.  ::)


My 'point' was more a joke that anyone asking 3k for a model could more than afford to kick in the shipping, that's all.  Someone just took it all too seriously. :D

All that said, whatever you personally are willing to shell out for something that you find value for, is 100% your business.   I have zero desire to try and convince you otherwise.  If you think a cardboard table is worth $100.00, have at it.  Same here.  If you see it all as a 'deal' for all the reasons you offered, what do I care?  And again, why would you care that I dont?  Sort of doesnt make sense to me to even discuss.  That's the other reason I cut the conversation short, these are just toys...

Cheers!
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: pixelgeek on July 09, 2014, 07:16:24 PM
Im still playing 3 editions back, on the VERY RARE occasion I actually game, although if they are 'hard core fanatic's' I suppose paying that on a hobby is normal.

If you play in a group that keeps current or you play tournament games then you need the most recent books. I suspect that those players would probably not want to spend that sort of cash in any case  :)
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: grant on July 09, 2014, 11:03:23 PM
Always wanted to go back to 2nd edition 40k. Best edition of the game - just pure fun.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Archie on July 09, 2014, 11:30:10 PM
Pixelgeek ...come on confess all ...which TV show?
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: grant on July 10, 2014, 03:03:13 AM
Pixelgeek ...come on confess all ...which TV show?

He's referring to my Scooby Doo, 7TV project  :D
http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=67487.msg816391#msg816391
(http://soldatetain.files.wordpress.com/2014/05/mysery.jpg?w=438)
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Argonor on July 10, 2014, 11:10:50 AM
Always wanted to go back to 2nd edition 40k. Best edition of the game - just pure fun.

Why don't you, then? I'm sure you can find likeminded gamers to play it with, and if you don't have the rulebooks anymore, you can probably get them quite easily.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Cubs on July 10, 2014, 01:46:05 PM
I've got a load of 2nd Edition books I need to ditch at some point.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: grant on July 10, 2014, 01:47:07 PM
I've got a load of 2nd Edition books I need to ditch at some point.

Get behind me, Satan!
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: pixelgeek on July 10, 2014, 01:48:11 PM
Always wanted to go back to 2nd edition 40k. Best edition of the game - just pure fun.

I still have everything for it.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Major_Gilbear on July 10, 2014, 02:28:32 PM
I too have nearly everything for 2E40k, including all the cards, powers, WD wargear and strategy cards, and army books. Missing the scenario pack(s?) though.

As long as the points are set around 1200-2000, and you play with forces that vaguely resemble the Studio armies in terms of composition, the game runs extremely well indeed.

However, it is very prone to beardy "min-maxing" (regardless of whether it is scenario or points play) if you're just playing pick-up games.

It was/is great fun though, and if you can find some people who are willing to play (and agree what sport of game you want to have), then it's definitely worth a re-visit.

I would also recommend modifying the missions; copy over the official ones to some blank cards, and then also add a few more of your own devising. It helps to mix things up a bit more, and is fairer/more fun for both players. You could also make a small deployment deck/table that determines how you both deploy on the table after you've drawn your missions - again, helps to keep things interesting! ;)
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: grant on July 10, 2014, 05:33:11 PM
I still have everything for it.

I saw that once...
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: eilif on July 10, 2014, 08:33:23 PM
I too have nearly everything for 2E40k, including all the cards, powers, WD wargear and strategy cards, and army books. Missing the scenario pack(s?) though.

As long as the points are set around 1200-2000, and you play with forces that vaguely resemble the Studio armies in terms of composition, the game runs extremely well indeed.
I've got about the same collection. I dreamed of playing 2nd edition again, but when I finally got some friends to try it, the results were unsatisfying.
http://chicagoskirmish.blogspot.com/2011/11/vintage-warhammer-40k-2nd-edition.html
 I haven't totally given up on trying again someday, but it will be a while. Still, it's the era of 40k I liked best and I'll probably never let go of my full collection of 2nd ed Codices.  They're great for fluff and art. 

Also, I forgot to post this earlier (wasn't aware of this thread either) but I recently sat down and thought about what (from my point of view as an ex 40k player) 40k has going for it. I kind of surprised myself and came up with 5 areas -Universe, Models, Production Values, Long Term Value and Ubiquity- where 40k and GW really shine, so I wrote it up as a sort of editorial.
http://chicagoskirmish.blogspot.com/2014/06/in-praise-of-warhammer-40000-and-games.html
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Too Bo Coo on July 10, 2014, 08:52:33 PM
Forgive me, but was 2e the big box set edition?
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Argonor on July 10, 2014, 09:13:24 PM
Forgive me, but was 2e the big box set edition?

Yes, the first big box.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Too Bo Coo on July 10, 2014, 09:29:03 PM
Yes, the first big box.

Cheers, that's the one I came in on then as well.  I agree with the earlier post that pointed out that with set armies the game played well, but it was prone to severe munchkinism as well.  But it does bring back nice memories!
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: eilif on July 11, 2014, 12:06:49 AM
Forgive me, but was 2e the big box set edition?
It was the big box with lots of monopose Orks, Gretchin and Space Marines, Card Terrain and 3 rulebooks.

The next big box was 3rd edition that had Multipart Space marines and dark eldar and vehicles and one big rulebook that was just like the book sold separately, but in softcover. 3rd edition was also the last to include pointed army lists for all armies.

In retrospect, both those boxes were a pretty good deal. Imagine a ruleset or starter box from GW that actually gives you stats for the models you already own.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Too Bo Coo on July 11, 2014, 03:19:26 AM
It was the big box with lots of monopose Orks, Gretchin and Space Marines, Card Terrain and 3 rulebooks.

The next big box was 3rd edition that had Multipart Space marines and dark eldar and vehicles and one big rulebook that was just like the book sold separately, but in softcover. 3rd edition was also the last to include pointed army lists for all armies.

In retrospect, both those boxes were a pretty good deal. Imagine a ruleset or starter box from GW that actually gives you stats for the models you already own.

That cinches it, I started in 2e.  Cheers Mate!
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: beefcake on July 11, 2014, 05:10:53 AM
Yep, gotta love 2nd ed. Started me in 40k too I still have my old school tyranid army and the 2nd ed codex has the rules for genestealer cults :) which Mr Saturday is making me buy more of for my own cult!  lol
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: grant on July 11, 2014, 05:26:58 AM
I was always an Ork player. Well, I did an a Eldar army 2nd, too. But I had tons of Orks.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: beefcake on July 11, 2014, 05:51:15 AM
My bro had eldar. I coudn't stand his warp spiders. They were too overpowered. Jump in, kill my big guys, jump out.  >:(
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Major_Gilbear on July 11, 2014, 11:29:12 AM
Well, 40k2E and 3E had to have the pointed lists in the basic book/set because they were each different enough from their predecessors to require "get-you-by" lists until that edition's Codices came out.

The main drawback to 2E is that it's really a skirmish ruleset, not an army ruleset, and when each side has more than about 50 models, it breaks down and gets slow. It also means that you need a *lot* of terrain for a "better" game (even tells you so in the rulebook IIRC), and that also precludes having lots of vehicles or big armies as they just get bogged down in the terrain otherwise.

The reason for all the terrain? Because otherwise it's a line-up-and-shoot deathmatch where more/better shooting will win with minimal tactics. Also, because anything with light armour or that has a CC focus will just be erased from the table without even a whimper when faced with high-volume fire.

That's why the missions/scenarios were so important, and why I felt (even at the time) that they were unbalanced enough to feel rather unfair after spending an entire day playing out a 1750pt game.

I think this is one area where 40k has in fact consistently improved; scenarios that are better balanced and encourage more participation from both players. In fact, thinking about it, I'd be tempted to use some of the the later editions' scenarios with the 2E rules.

Armies-wise, three stood out as being distinctly broken; Eldar , Space Wolves, Chaos. Each had waaay too many options, often undercosted or "free", and the flexibility that they could include usually ameliorated much of their inbuilt weaknesses. If playing with these armies especially, you need to try and either build a specific scenario, or otherwise have a gentleman's agreement to build fluffy rather than beardy armies and to not tailor too much against your opponent.

It is fun though, and if you're looking at playing a series of narratively-linked games, it is really good. It's also quite easy to get into in terms of model-count compared to later editions, especially if you go for a one-of-everything studio army approach.

@ eilif:

I think your experience may have been skewed a bit by having fairly specialised forces, very small armies, and limiting what wargear etc is available. 1500pts is generally reckoned by many to be the sweet-spot, but slightly bigger games up to 2000pts are fairer for some armies that are inflexibly organised and need the extra points to round out a balanced army. Even a 1500pt game will likely take all afternoon to play though. Also, I recommend including "area" terrain as well as buildings and elevations.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Malebolgia on July 11, 2014, 11:36:05 AM
We tried playing 2nd edition several years back and although we had fun, it was mainly because of nostalgic reasons. The rules themselves aren't great and are full of holes. We often had to discuss how to resolve certain situations. And the cheese factor of many weapons and models is absurd in 2nd edition.
So although 3rd and later editions often feel a bit bland, they sure are better as a rules package.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Major_Gilbear on July 11, 2014, 11:51:21 AM
The rules themselves aren't great and are full of holes. We often had to discuss how to resolve certain situations. And the cheese factor of many weapons and models is absurd [...].

Every edition has this. It's the number one single reason I get so fed up past a certain point, because instead of improving each edition we just get a churn which changes what's cheesy this time around. And after 7 editions, there is no excuse for rules which are vague, or which are worded very specifically but only for certain situations.

I think that one reason Necromunda was so enduringly popular is that it was 2E with many of the rule shortcomings removed. Of course, the Necromunda campaign system breaks the balance totally again...  o_o

Also, for the record, I really liked 40k3E; even though a fair few areas were a somewhat derpy. But then, I also like Epic 40k hugely, so I guess that puts me in a minority group!  :?
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Malebolgia on July 11, 2014, 12:16:14 PM
True. GW is terrible at writing GOOD rules sets. Sure, they have a lot of fun rules sets but a lot of them aren't well written. Like you, it baffles me that the latest editions of WHFB and 40K still have so many loopholes and weird rules interactions.
It's one of the reasons I love Warmachine so much. It's a really good system in terms of rules and rules interactions. And yes, sometimes the interactions can get complicated, but in the end they make sense (from a rules perspective! Rules is not fluff...) and give a strong rules set. IMO the best rules package for competitive gaming.

And I also like Epic a lot. Don't think the RULES are very good (every incarnation, even the latest fan built ones), but the look and feel works like a charm.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Major_Gilbear on July 11, 2014, 12:46:37 PM
@ Malebolgia:

Totally agree.

I would also say that I have no real objection to playing any edition of 40k or whatever, but I will no longer be buying new editions. Instead, I'll wait until an edition is a few years old (2-3 years after a "new edition" release) and buy up whatever I want for cheap - for example, I got a lot of 40k2E Codex books and WHFB5E Army books for less than I could have possibly bought them originally, and that's without factoring in inflation!  :D
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Col. Aubrey Bagshot on July 11, 2014, 12:50:54 PM
GW is terrible at writing GOOD rules sets.

Really? I would argue that thier Necromunda - LotR, - 'Legends of' rule sets still are the BEST skirmish games ever written.
They get copied by just about everyone, but the original rules still endure and they still get homebrew 'skins' written for them every year...

I agree that 40K is currently broken and for the last few years have gone back to playing earlier versions...
Same with Fantasy, some of the earlier versions were SO much fun to play, especially if you played Goblins....
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Vermis on July 11, 2014, 01:18:40 PM
I think they can write good rule sets (and I like most of the Specialist Games, particularly Epic:A, thangyewverrimush  :P ), but I think it's plain by now - what with everything else like trade embargos, cease-and-desist orders popping off everywhere, the 'GW hobby is buying GW' bit out of the Chapterhouse court case, the rumours of management viewing GW customers as 'sheep', and so on - that they don't want to. At this point the main aim of new editions and new army books is to shake things up, make things different again so that existing customers have to buy more minis to keep up with the new 'meta'. They apparently see a spike in sales with each new edition, so after the tumble their stocks prices took earlier in the year, is it much of a surprise to see 7th ed 40K after only two years of 6th, and with 'unbound' and rampant daemon-summoning added to each army?

But then there's the train of thought that even 40K and WHFB are well-written games - for children. The 12-14yo target market. All the big, flashy models with lethal special rules; the relentlessly tooth-gritted grimdark 'adult' setting*; aaall the stats and rules and special rules to memorise**; most of the gameplay boiling down to how you build your army list and strategy off-table, so you can wind 'em up and let 'em go on-table, with a minimum of analytical reaction or tactical thinking needed***; actual comments from Jervis and others that SGs were for older gamers, and would need to be changed to appeal to kids. All about the core two catering to younger minds.

*I've seen some old gamers who started with Rogue Trader or 2nd ed, claiming that the setting then was kewl and appealing to them as kids because it was grimdark and 'adult', but the setting now is ruined in an effort to seem kewl and appealing to kids by being, er, grimdark and 'adult'. o_o (the difference is 'jokes,' apparently)

**I'd hazard it's something like memorising long dinosaur names and how they're supposed to be pronounced.

***And I'd hazard that's like that warm glow from knowing that the stats on your top trumps card 'trumped' your opponent, even though the most you contributed to the outcome was merely possessing the card in a randomly shuffled deck.
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: Major_Gilbear on July 11, 2014, 01:58:25 PM
Really? I would argue that thier Necromunda - LotR, - 'Legends of' rule sets still are the BEST skirmish games ever written.
They get copied by just about everyone, but the original rules still endure and they still get homebrew 'skins' written for them every year...

That game mechanics are good is not the same as rule explanations that are good, or even rule explanations that don't have loopholes. I think that's what Malebolgia was getting at.

To illustrate, from the 6E Dark Angels codex, we have this little gem:

"Only one of each Relic may be taken per army.
A model can replace one weapon with one of the following."


This is from a page of special "relic wargear" that some characters are allowed to choose from. The first part is clear enough. The second part... Not so much. The contention is whether a model can replace one weapon in total, or different weapons on a one-to-one basis (eg, I could swap a bolt pistol and chainsword for a relic gun and a relic sword).

Every GW rule set I've read is filled with these sorts of little rubs, and it is really tedious to have to discuss them for every army with every opponent for every edition. Also, different people read each rule differently and may or may not feel strongly about it; do you play with a different agreement every time?

I agree that 40K is currently broken and for the last few years have gone back to playing earlier versions...
Same with Fantasy, some of the earlier versions were SO much fun to play, especially if you played Goblins....

40k is no more broken now (albeit I'm on 6E) than it was in any edition  previously. It's just that each edition changes things around to break the game in a new and different way.

Every edition has a few rules that were abused, and which therefore favoured certain armies (above and beyond individual army book power). Most of the time, it's not a *huge* deal if you can agree a compromise on the rule with your regular opponents, but it can make pick-up games quite hard.

Which edition you prefer is just that: preference. I liked 3E, but melee and Rhino-rushing was pretty broken. 4E was better in many ways, but the Rending ability (and therefore the Assault cannon) was game-breaking. In 5E, vehicles were king, as were flyers (introduced really for the first time). There's lots more, but you get the idea.  ;D
Title: Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
Post by: pixelgeek on July 11, 2014, 04:19:33 PM
I think they can write good rule sets (and I like most of the Specialist Games, particularly Epic:A, thangyewverrimush  :P ),