Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => Other Adventures => Topic started by: Captain Gamma on December 10, 2014, 06:47:25 PM
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In addition to some Geezers Royale Spy figures (which are covered in a separate thread) I have also received images of some greens for my secret (ish) new range planned for next year. I'm really quite pleased with them. I hope you all are too. As the range builds pace I'll announce it properly and put it on the right section of the forum.
Sculpted as always by Martin Baker.
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1950s-1960s alien invasion? ;D
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Erm........
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looks interesting, I'm a big fan of the Geezers
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Nice mechanic!
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Christmas elves with M-14s?
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Nice looking figures.
See one GI and you've seen them all, but the mechanic chap is lovely and something I've been looking for for a while.
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Here's another figure for the range. At first I wasn't too sure about his hat but after seeing different camera angles I'm a lot happier with it:
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Nice! I'm getting a 'secret alien invasion' vibe
Regards
Jim
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Hello everybody,
These three figures are now in the web store. They are a sort of taster for a proper range currently being sculpted for release later in the year.
http://killerbgames.com/index.php?cPath=13
Be lucky!
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Here are some 'Dollies' which will be the basis for a few packs of M14 armed 1950's/60's US Soldiers. As soon as I get them cast they'll be sent straight back to the sculptor Martin Baker for completion. After that it's on to some things for them to fight.
The MJ-12 Agent will also be getting sent away to be converted into a few different poses. The aim is that I have some soldiers, agents and 'enemies' to be released at the same time as the rules later in the year.
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The 'right' section of the forum being 'Conflicts That Came In From The Cold' I hope. I have been after some M14-armed G.I.s for like forever. Don't forget the M60 and M79!
Regardless, Early '60s Sci-Fi, count me in!
:D
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At first I thought it was going to be Bilko, the wargame, nice figures 8)
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They look like halflings. Shouldn't they go in Fantasy Adventures?
The M-14 needs a bit more length and a flash hider btw.
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No they're not halflings bless 'em. That's just the photo. when cast they don't look as squat.
What I am thinking however is that I've equipped the soldiers with WW2 webbing but have armed them with a 1959 rifle. Hmm.. now I was after a generic B movie look but I don't want them to look too 'wrong'. Do you think its a passable sin or would this webbing and an M14 never ever be seen together under any circumstances?
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At first I thought it was going to be Bilko, the wargame, nice figures 8)
Some of the motor pool chaps would be a useful team - who wouldn't want corrupt/incompetant/short/fat squaddies rather than the over muscular athletes we often get from other manufacturers.
1950s generic B movie types would be better for eg Mars Attacks, giant ants, dinosaurs, or any other kind of "Creature that ate Sheboygan" style game.
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Too be honest if you wanted generic '50s troops you probably would have been better off with M1 Garands. The M-14 took quite a while to roll out as did the webbing. There are photos of National Guard soldiers at Fort Drum, New York in 1970 still wearing WW2 webbing, albeit equipped with WW2 weapons.
Carrying the magazine for the M-14 would be a pain with standard US WW2 webbing, unless you had the BAR magazine holders. Better off modelling the M-1956 equipment IMO.
BTW the lower pics of the dollies do look a lot better proportioned.
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Bugger. You say it would be a pain to carry the ammo in a Ww2 belt. Would it be unthinkable?
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The M-14 is a magazine fed weapon. Those were twenty round magazines. for reference sake it's the boxy looking bit sticking out underneath the rifle.
The M-1 Garand and it's predecessors were fed by clips, eight round clips in the case of the Garand and the standard WW2 webbing ( itself merely a modification of a pattern that went back to before the Great War) was designed to accommodate small clips.
You couldn't physically fit an M-14 magazine into the standard rifleman's webbing pouches, which would rather invalidate the point of the magazine. A similar problem existed with the BAR, for which a specific belt set was issued to the BAR gunner in each squad, with four pouches that fitted the BAR magazine.
The M-1956 equipment was designed with the M-14 specifically in mind. I doubt there were sufficient sets of BAR specific webbing to have equipped every riflemen anyway.
It's hard to tell what the webbing those figures are equipped with on the basis of the photos. Maybe the sculptor intended the BAR magazine belt, they kind of look like the double magazine pouches but I can't really tell.
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My memory is faulty. The M1918 BAR set and its later equivalent versions were triple pouch affairs. Three on each side each able to carry a single magazine. There were seperate items designed to go with the M-1936 pistol belt but again, this is what the M-1956 equipment was designed to overcome.
If you make 'em in the M-1956 kit you'll get more crossover sales for people wanting troops for Vietnam, the Cold War or Elvis on the Moon anyway.
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Thanks for all that Carlos. At least the mistake can get rectified at this early stage. I'll look at changing the webbing.
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I've just checked out the BAR belt pouches and although my soldiers have two as opposed to three the pouches do look the same.
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Carlos has the right of it. Although it entered service in 1958, only the two Airborne divisions were fully equipped with the M14 by 1962. That being said, you would use your 'Elites' to support MJ-12 Ops I would think.
These photos represent '1965', but the only discrepancy for earlier is the baseball cap on the second guy, previously the Garrison Cap aka 'Ridgeway Cap' or 'Castro Cap' was worn. Only one canteen was carried until Vietnam too.
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-XgKJsEnflXc/VVGpPpxLRqI/AAAAAAAAUH8/qYXI5RJUF1w/w1044-h395-no/image_5878.jpg)
The official load out from the Field Manual is so...
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-EHaFVJqJ7YA/VVGzk7TNRpI/AAAAAAAAUIg/d1poXhFYUAc/w576-h411-no/post-5-1182440731.jpg)
Garrison caps on these guys being issued with their brand-new rifles.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-Fhm0oE_Zyk0/T18Tgv5ukqI/AAAAAAAAJoY/yJ5DzZY05js/w490-h363-no/m-14.jpg)
Even MG Gunners carried the same belt pouch, plus WWII style leather pistol and holster, as seen on this 173rd Airborne gunner in 1965.
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-HHaI73mZJ6E/VVGrrMNvyGI/AAAAAAAAUIM/7uPVgCDg1yI/w705-h493-no/tumblr_mrn4rznxle1qivon6o1_1280.jpg)
As far as crossover sales go, the first Army units to go to Vietnam were all equipped with the M14, in OD fatigues and leather boots. The troops at Fort Knox in 'Goldfinger' all had the M14 too! Getting it right will be worth it I think.
WWII kit did stick around though... as this incongruous photo of M1 Garand armed troops de-bussing from an M113 in '62 shows.
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-bMNdb9S3HV4/T1f9bZdUzOI/AAAAAAAAJoY/1yQRHBnRufE/w400-h340-no/0708.jpg)
Even in Vietnam the M2 Carbine and M3 Grease Gun were the preferred weapons of SF troopers initially... although one unit of Navy SEALS had the forerunner of the M16 in 1962!
The only other comment I can add is that it seems odd to see a U.S. soldier with his chin strap actually on his chin; paratroops on a jump yes (and they have a chin cup and an extra strap), but otherwise they are usually either hanging unfastened, fastened over the back of the helmet, tucked into the helmet, or loosely fastened and hanging under the jaw itself. .. anything but under the chin.
Anyway... if you want generic - M1/2 Carbines, M1 Rifles, M3 Grease Guns, BARs and WWII style webbing as appropriate for each different weapon. If you are looking for crossover sales, M56 webbing for everyone, M14 rifles, M79 launchers and M60 machine guns.
I'd actually buy both in platoon quantity, but then you may have gathered I'm a bit of a nerd for this sort of thing. ::)
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Well I've been in touch with the sculptor and it's going to be simple enough to change the webbing to the '56 webbing . Garrison caps are planned (as per Kingdom of he crystal skull)
The chin strap was intentional.i just felt it looked right for pulpy GIs.
Hopefully these changes will generate cross over sales and avoid a range that ends up being another WW2 American range.
Thanks to all for your advice. These changes will also mean I can use the soldiers as National Guard etc for Geezers.
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You're welcome! As prospective buyers, it's in our interests to speak up now, rather than wait until there is no going back. For me I could live with 'generic' and 'pulpy' as I'm into '50s Sci-Fi and Spy-Fi in any case; barring Brigade's 'Atomic Cafe' and some of the KKBB range, it's all 'Jason King' out there for the most part.
People don't play it because there are few figures, manufacturers don't make it because there are few players... chicken and egg.
I do however want to do some 'serious' What-If gaming in the era of the Cuban Missile Crisis and I doubt there will ever be a range made to support that. Figures I can use for both are a win for me and I would be buying far more of them, given that you use more in a 'skirmish' game than in something like 7TV, or Geezers etc.
I don't suppose '60s Soviets and Cubans are in your future plans by any chance? ;)
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As it happens I was considering a Cuban revolution and Bay of Pigs range. Bought a load of books and doodled some cover designs. I'm probably deterred by having to get everything just right with it being historical. Sci Fi, 70s kitch and 50s pulp don't tend to get as much scrutiny for their accuracy.
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Well there are a wealth of photos of Castro and his guys and the 'Bay of Pigs' Osprey book gives good coverage of the Anti-Castro forces for all its see-saw tilt towards them.
Batista's Cuban Army wore mostly US Surplus (some surprisingly old surplus in some cases too), but carried the Springfield rather than the M1 until late in the Revolution.
The Soviets in Cuba wore the Soviet tropical uniform and hat (and usual helmets obviously)... apparently they cut the toe part of their boots off due to the heat though... a small detail I would be inclined to ignore myself. Cuban militia were pretty much the same as they were in the time of the Bay of Pigs, a real mix. Only the regulars pose a problem and they wore US Fatigues, a variety of bits of US webbing, but mostly carried the FN rifle.
It wouldn't be that difficult to get it right-ish, but then that's what forums are for too, you're not alone. There's a lot of knowledge knocking around LAF and what we don't know, we usually can point fingers in the right direction for who does. :)
Alternatively you could go for a 'Pulp' style revolution, so some of the heat would be off as regards accuracy... remember the Michael Caine/Billy Connolly film 'Water'? I can't speak for everyone, but gaming a generic '60s-style revolution could be as satisfying as gaming the real Cuban one for me.
;)
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Hmm I see what you mean. Cuban-ish forces would fit in with Geezers Royale. 1950s Russians in the style of kit seen in Kingdom of the Crystal Skull are Definately planned.
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Well I've been in touch with the sculptor and it's going to be simple enough to change the webbing to the '56 webbing
Well that's a relief, I would hate to have non historical troops to battle my giant mutant ants from space invasion game. :D
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Hahaha well yes true. Although they are intended for pulp I didn't want them to look too wrong in order to get crossover sales .Now I must make sure my giant atomic ants are anatomically correct.
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Now I must make sure my giant atomic ants are anatomically correct.
50s giant atomic ants or early to mid 60s giant atomic ants? ;)
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;D
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Well that's a relief, I would hate to have non historical troops to battle my giant mutant ants from space invasion game. :D
Hahaha well yes true. Although they are intended for pulp I didn't want them to look too wrong in order to get crossover sales .Now I must make sure my giant atomic ants are anatomically correct.
I was always taught that if you're going to do something, do it properly. Seriously when that giant Tarantula is wading through your army men you don't want some tosser pointing out that they have the wrong rifles for 1955.
;)
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many years ago in my first foray into WW II there was a guy who got a kick out of the fact that I painted my U.S. Army with black boots instead of brown :-[
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That's the sort of thing that gets button-counters like me a bad name. >:(
I've received a lot of help and constructive criticism over the years (and still do obviously) and in like measure like to pass on what I've learnt... which is not the same as letting everyone in earshot know someone 'got it wrong'... that's just being a dick.
;)
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So, on a more serious note.
Would Barbie be the appropriate figure for "Attack of the 50 foot woman"?
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So, on a more serious note.
Would Barbie be the appropriate figure for "Attack of the 50 foot woman"?
Nah, completely the wrong body proportions if you look at the original flick. Barbie is a weirdly elongated, sexless, bulimic freak,whichever way you cut it,
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I've seen a Barbie painted up as the 50 foot woman somewhere.
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Somewhat late to this party...
What I am thinking however is that I've equipped the soldiers with WW2 webbing but have armed them with a 1959 rifle. Hmm.. now I was after a generic B movie look but I don't want them to look too 'wrong'. Do you think its a passable sin or would this webbing and an M14 never ever be seen together under any circumstances?
Highly doubtful. Like having a BREN section equipped with Pattern '08 pouches or Slade-Wallace.
Carrying the magazine for the M-14 would be a pain with standard US WW2 webbing, unless you had the BAR magazine holders.
Better off modelling the M-1956 equipment IMO.
This. The M-14 is a magazine fed rifle. We used stripper clips & guides to load magazines, not the rifle. The only US webbing pre-M56 that works for M-14 magazines are BAR belts, and the 30-cal carbine 4 30 round pouches, which hold ONE M-14, nothing else standard fits. You could load your Garand belt with 7.62 stripper clips, but why would you?
To be honest if you wanted generic '50s troops you probably would have been better off with M1 Garands. The M-14 took quite a while to roll out as did the webbing. There are photos of National Guard soldiers at Fort Drum, New York in 1970 still wearing WW2 webbing, albeit equipped with WW2 weapons.
In the fall semester of 1972 our college ROTC arms room had brand new M-14s, '03 Springfields, with 16" bayonets, for the drill team, 2 BARS, & and one M1919A4 LMG. The M-14s replaced the last of the Garands that left that spring, & the rest of WWII stuff departed before I could wring 'em out. Web gear issued with the M-14s was M-56, what was designed for it, already out of Regular Army service, replaced by nylon & soon ALICE gear. We didn't have any M1 carbines though, gthey were probably all out working for a living.
I was always taught that if you're going to do something, do it properly. Seriously when that giant Tarantula is wading through your army men you don't want some tosser pointing out that they have the wrong rifles for 1955.
Seriously, that's just what tossers, button counters & stitchnazilike me LIVE for!!
Not being able to giggle, tee-hee, belittle or revile your opponents toys just sucks the life out of it for me...
Matching the webbing to the weapon is a smart decision, as is seeking crossover appeal.
Personally I'd love to see more minis with .30 cal carbines, M1, M1A1 & M2.
(http://www.milweb.net/classifieds/classpics/74905.jpg)looks men
(http://www.357magnum.dk/indhold/galleri/M1_Carbine.jpg)
(http://static3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120312225117/brotherinarms/images/8/83/Airborne.jpg)
Bayonet lug & the original "banana clip" makes it post-WWII, & looks mean!! The indistinguishable M2 config is full auto capable.
M1 & M2 Carbines are the original "Poor Man's 'Assault Rifle' " Every theatre in WWII, every US conflict through Viet Nam, every revolution or banana war since 1943 on one side, or the other or both, beloved of cops n'crooks, prison guards & partisans, Bugsy Siegel was killed by one & Patty Hurst used one to rob banks. These lil' rascals are ubiquitous, except behind the Iron Curtain. Every continent, every conflict, and WAY over-represented in Hollywood '40s through to the '80s. M1 carbines pop up in all the oddest places!!
A GI with one is useful most anywhere, anytime, ditto suitably garbed civvies in any post-WWI scenario. With a 30 round banana mag & a stock pouch with 2 15s you almost don't even need webgear!!
Yeah, I'm a fan...
& would cheerfully snap up minis so armed, even though my focus is earlier.
& for those of you who must metrify, think 7.62x33, just as German & Austrian Border Guards did until quite recently...
Valerik
War Baby fan from way, way back
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I was surprised to read that initially USMC officers in Vietnam supplemented their 'regulation' M1911s with M1 carbines, as those same regs did not allow them to be issued an M14 like their men. Previously it was the issue weapon of NCOs, RTOs and everyone else who was not issued an M1 Garand... not the M1 & M3 smgs that most ranges feature. The ARVN preferred it to the Garand and so did the VC who bought or stole them from them between '62 and '65.
It gets a lot of flak for 'poor stopping power' on gun sites, but I wonder how much of that was down poor accuracy on the user's part. Certainly when the offer is made to don body armour and be shot by one, the critics fall silent.
Al Pacino is most often remembered for his 'little friend' in Scarface, but he was propelled to fame with an M1 Carbine in Dog Day Afternoon.
I like them too. ;)
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Yeah Phillip Caputo mentions picking one up and using it in Vietnam in 1965. Has to be better than waving a .45 around.
It is a remarkably popular weapon. Britain used considerable numbers during the Malayan Insurgency in the late 1940s and 1950s. The prison services in Australia favoured it. One was used to kill a prison guard at Pentridge during an escape and the alleged killer was the last man hanged in Australia. It also featured in the Queen Street massacre which lead to the first ban on semi-automatic weapons. The dickhead who committed the crime, cut it down to fit under his clothes not realising it operated on a short stroke principle he cut through the gas system making it, ironically, a single shot weapon.
As for the ballistics, well it's useful enough in the right environment and will do the job required but it's inferior to most intermediate rounds of similar vintage. Almost nobody else has adopted it save for the Dominican Republic in the form of the Cristobal carbine series. About the only other military style application of the cartridge that I can think of is the Taurus CT-30. I've seen the GTM, the motorcycle cops, carrying them in Rio and I think BOPE and the Shock Battalion have them in inventory but the express reason for having them is that the low power cartridge limits the prospect of collateral damage in an urban environment. That was the selling point, not that PMERJ actually worry that much about unwanted civilian casualties. :(
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I've seen a Barbie painted up as the 50 foot woman somewhere.
By our very own resident madman Dr. the Viking.
http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=26828.0
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Ah yes I remember that one! :D
So Captain Gamma... what's your thinking behind this range, the obvious MJ-12 references aside?
This is your moment to stamp on my dreams of a '50s/'60s Pulp range btw. :)
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Well worry not. It is indeed a 1950s/60s UFO invasion range! (So historically factual)
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By our very own resident madman Dr. the Viking.
http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=26828.0
Ahh yes! There she is bless her. Good looking lass.
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Well worry not. It is indeed a 1950s/60s UFO invasion range! (So historically factual)
Excellent... and of course it's historically factual. I am in fact amazed by their game plan, for one they only abduct people nobody will believe. This is their fiendish cunning at work!
I'm resisting the urge to offer 1001 suggestions for this... but I will confine myself to suggesting some civilians in Fifties styles and leave the rest to you.
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-VL6NWuOvoE8/VVOhRbDBz6I/AAAAAAAAUJU/p7sXjHBj1es/w1040-h225-no/A.jpg)
I presume there will be grey flannel suits and fedoras aplenty with the MJ-12 and G-Men.
:)
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Annoying teens, cops, various stereotypical citizens, Men in Black, aliens both fictional and 'factual', cryptids, the lot! And that's just for America. I intend to bring out a supplement for the UK.(Unexplained Kingdom) This time I'll see what people want for their 50's-60's British soldiers first before I send any briefs to my sculptor. I'm quite partial to great coats and berets as seen in X-The Unknown.
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Sounds like you have it covered to my complete satisfaction. I can't say I'm partial to the UK setting, but I'm pretty sure there are a load of members who will be. Quatermass, Very Old School Dr Who and stuff like that all have their numerous fans here.
IIRC X-The Unknown was pre-FN Rifle, so that should be an interesting discussion. That being said, I'm not sure anyone does WWII-style Brits in greatcoats, so that could prove to be very popular.
I quite like the way you're going though, it sort of fills the time-niche before Crooked Dice's range kicks off. Lots of useful figures planned if the range takes off. I'll go for it, so that's one customer at least.
:)
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1960s Brits you say?
1960 Pattern Combat smock and trousers with puttees. Mk V 'turtle' tin hat, unadorned. SLR, SMG and Bren.
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That being said, I'm not sure anyone does WWII-style Brits in greatcoats, so that could prove to be very popular.
Gorgon Miniatures. Sculpted by Mike Owen.
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Looks thrilling although I must ask what happened to your starhide plans? :-X
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Ahh Star*Hide, I sort of lost focus when there were problems with the Gil Stargazer sculpt. I'm still not 100% satisfied with it and with him being the central character I got a little jaded toward the project. It's still at the back of my mind though. I've still got 50 designs drawn up.
As regards the Brits in X-The Unknown they were armed with Thompsons.
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I quite like the way you're going though, it sort of fills the time-niche before Crooked Dice's range kicks off. Lots of useful figures planned if the range takes off. I'll go for it, so that's one customer at least.
:)
Fills the time-niche before Crooked Dice's range kicks off? Do you mean my range covers the time period before the 70s?
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1960s Brits you say?
1960 Pattern Combat smock and trousers with puttees. Mk V 'turtle' tin hat, unadorned. SLR, SMG and Bren.
Errrrrrrr....let's say late 50's.
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And miss all the potential Doctor Who sales?
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Fills the time-niche before Crooked Dice's range kicks off? Do you mean my range covers the time period before the 70s?
In my mind Crooked Dice are sort of Late '60s - Early '70s (like Geezers-Shut It! but less pie and eels), then there's Artizan/Copplestone KKBB which is sort of Mid-60s 'Bond' (a la Geezers Royale)... then there is this, which apart from Brigade's small Atomic Cafe range, you can pretty much cut your own turf. Pre-'65-ish as far back as 1945 is pretty much all yours for the taking at the present time.
Errrrrrrr....let's say late 50's.
I won't bend your ear on this topic, Carlos will be more than you need... but '58 is pretty much when the big changes in the British Army more or less took place, new webbing, new uniforms, new weapons. Before then is *mostly* WWII kit and weapons, after that you're going into the woolly-pully - end of battledress, combat jacket and FN rifle era.
:)
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Of course if you really want Brits in the 1950s, suitable for use in the UK, it's all battledress with open collar, shirt and tie, puttees or anklets, turtle helmets and No 4 riles, Stens or Sterlings and Brens. No crossover potential and I suspect most people would just substitute/convert WW2 figures. For the paras then WW2 figures are perfect, they were still using WW2 kit up until about 1958/59.
There is an alternative for the '60s. Ive seen one or two people wanting chaps with SLRs etc wearing wooly pullies, a la Dr Who. Nobody does a range of such.
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Then of course there's the 1950s pattern combat dress, first issued in Korea. It tended to be a unit held store only issued in cold weather in part because it was a complete bugger to clean. It's quite similar to the 1960 pattern and does let you get away with the earlier weapons.
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This page has a decent summary of '50s and '60s pattern combat dress.
http://www.onesixth.co.uk/vb4forum/showthread.php?1566-Combat-Dress-1950-and-1960-Patterns
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Cheers Carlos that's a great website!
I like the earlier stuff for the Brits. I want to keep the feel of the 50s as regards this particular range though I do plan to add 1970s British soldiers in flak jackets to the Geezers range.
I'm very grateful for all this help with the kit and uniforms. It's great to hear people's opinions.
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For the UK could you also consider some Navy Lark types?
Britains had a "Herald" range of home service troops that were fairly generic looking. About a dozen poses if I recall correctly.
Apart from Quatermass, don't forget books like the Midwitch Cuckoos or 1984.
You get quite a few old programmes on R4extra.
For the 1950s US civilians, will there be Jets and Sharks?
And if you need any rules testing I'll volunteer the school club again.
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No real plans for the sharks or the jets. There is a biker though.
And the playtest offer is much appreciated. Your club was legendary when you tested Geezers for me. To this date I've never had to change a single mechanism.
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As we mentioned Cubans previously, I came across these photos;
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-_dLjyrwhqZ0/VN3ZZ-sjTEI/AAAAAAAAUTk/mk6wTUbFOgM/s512/post-70-0-65503500-1370751768.jpg)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-86l15ISe5ps/T1pg4PPWT1I/AAAAAAAAJoY/aZ5HdOrydXQ/s362/cubasoldier1962.jpg)
U.S. Fatigues and boots, FN-FAL Rifles, Soviet helmets, a mix of Soviet and U.S. webbing, haversacks etc. and ... wait for it... BAR pouches. lol
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Bloody BAR pouches! The US dollies are back with the sculptor getting altered as we speak.