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Miniatures Adventure => Fantasy Adventures => Topic started by: Harry von Fleischmann on May 16, 2015, 07:40:47 AM

Title: Archers in Westeros armies
Post by: Harry von Fleischmann on May 16, 2015, 07:40:47 AM
I'm idly toying with the idea of using a mix of GW LOTR and various Perry WOTR / medievals to make some Lion Rampant armies for Starks, Lannisters etc. Some figures leap to mind - the Gondor fief clansmen are great for northerners and the dunlendings make good hill men. I'm obviously using Boromir as Ned Stark.......

But I'm curious as to how people see Westeros armies, there doesn't seem to be much massed archery a la medieval England. Perhaps the default is large blocks of pike/pole arm foot with missile men being more bidowers?

Just curious as to how others see it?
Title: Re: Archers in Westeros armies
Post by: Captain Blood on May 16, 2015, 08:24:32 AM
Interesting, isn't it?
Unlike in Tolkien, where the big set-piece battles are related in a lot of loving detail, GRRM tends to gloss over them or avoid them altogether.
You get the build-up to battles and the aftermath - you don't get many descriptions of large-scale warfare itself. For a series of books that are deeply concerned with violence, force of arms, and war as the political tool par excellence, the focus is very much on brawls, scraps and duels. On swords and single combat, and hardly on warfare at all.
You have the jousting nobility, and you have scum of the earth militias slitting throats in taverns.
You have loyal parties of guards - Stark and Lannister - usually fairly sketchily drawn. Spears are mentioned and crossbows.
I'm wracking my brains to think if there are longbows in there anywhere - I think probably not... Ygritte obviously has a bow, and other wildlings, so maybe The North is more 'bow-orientated'.
The Dothraki have bows in the Steppe nomad tradition too - I'm pretty sure I didn't imagine that, but it's been a few years since I read the first couple of books where the Dothraki feature...)
Anyway, I've decided to give a mix of longbows and crossbows to my Stark forces (mainly longbows), and crossbows only to my Lannisters - as befitting their character as the forces of oppression.

In pretty much all myth, literature, and indeed some would say in history, the bow or longbow is painted as the lovingly hand-crafted weapon of the honourable, skilled, freewheeling, noble-hearted individual. While the crossbow is the unskilled, cowardly henchman's mechanical, mass-produced weapon of choice... So I'm sticking to that. Bows for goodies, crossbows for baddies.  ;)
Title: Re: Archers in Westeros armies
Post by: Harry von Fleischmann on May 16, 2015, 08:29:00 AM
Good points Captain, thank you. I should apologise - I didnt mention your heroic efforts in plastic! I'm off to the FLGS today but can't face the multiple sprues!

I may follow your lead with the crossbow/longbow split but then only use archers as bidowers. I've already labelled my rangers of the north as "the huntsmen of tumbledown tower".
Title: Re: Archers in Westeros armies
Post by: OSHIROmodels on May 16, 2015, 08:53:31 AM
Interesting, isn't it?

Bows for goodies, crossbows for baddies.  ;)

 lol

 ;)
Title: Re: Archers in Westeros armies
Post by: Harry von Fleischmann on May 16, 2015, 08:59:22 AM
It's a bit like the way they've done the cultures in GOT - it's shorthand but works. It does mean that I have rather a lot of evil crossbow men who were previously honest mercenaries.......
Title: Re: Archers in Westeros armies
Post by: Gandalf the G on May 16, 2015, 09:00:46 AM
Since the books are written from the points of view of a single character at a time, it is not strange that the big picture of battlefield affairs are missing.

However, one detail that I seem to recall is from the Battle of the Green Fork, where the Boltons stay in the rear of the northern host. Their longbowmen loose volleys into the melee, worrying little about who is friend and foe.
Title: Re: Archers in Westeros armies
Post by: Captain Blood on May 16, 2015, 10:32:28 AM
Since the books are written from the points of view of a single character at a time, it is not strange that the big picture of battlefield affairs are missing.


Fair point.
The Battle of the Blackwater is the only major battle where you get a sense of the battle unfolding. Most of Robb's battles in the west of Westeros are not described in any detail.
The Boltons having longbows would certainly play to the idea of the bow as more of a northern weapon, whilst the big, wealthy houses of the south like Lannister and Tyrell are more likely to employ crossbowmen.
Like England and France  ;)
(Or Robin Hood vs the Sheriff's men... )
Title: Re: Archers in Westeros armies
Post by: Gandalf the G on May 16, 2015, 03:08:26 PM
My own vision of the northern armies is a mix of mounted raiders and scots-ish halfpike schiltrons. I actually quite like the look of the Stark soldiers in the tv-series, with their pseudo-brigandines and visorless helmets. I imagine that any kind of articulated plate armor would be a hassle in cold and damp climates.
Then there are the mountian clans and houses like the Umbers and Mormonts that invoke a much more feral image, almost viking age, in my imagination. The crannogmen are skirmishers, loathe to engage in open battle.
And then the Manderlys, shining knights and mariners both.

I'm really looking forward to the next book.

Actually, there are som details of Robbs "battles"(nightly campsite ambushes) that would suggest quite a bit about the kind of army he commanded. Also, it is the infantry that goes with Bolton to the Green Fork, while the mounted troops follow Robb.
Title: Re: Archers in Westeros armies
Post by: Miantanomo on May 16, 2015, 04:59:33 PM
As historically influenced as Martin is, he doesn't follow much of the ratios of your run-of-the-mill warriors to archers. But I agree that crossbows seem a bit of a southern thing. I think what Fireforge has to offer would be best for creating Westerosi armies.

Boromir as Ned? Yes, please!

And Northern armies don't wear plate as much, I feel. I believe they would be more brigandine, leather and such than their southron counterparts.
Title: Re: Archers in Westeros armies
Post by: Harry von Fleischmann on May 16, 2015, 06:34:11 PM
I agree with the rarity of plate in t'north. As I am looking at half strength Lion Rampant units and had picked up 6 each nicely painted lossarnach and lamedon, those seemed good starting point despite the breastplates on some. Especially as I have a Boromir I already painted who is of course THE Ned figure. This one is blowing the horn but he does look the part. Annoyingly I painted him as per the GW guide, so he has a hint of red and gold at the sleeves. I'm not going to repaint him because he was the first fig I painted where I was really chuffed with the result.

I have 12 spare Gondor warriors who with a basic red based paint job look quite Lannister. And some WOTR knights to glue up so....it's a solid start.

I've read all the books and, yes, I'd not really thought about how GRRM does brawls and red weddings at one end and then seems to go straight to the politics without really doing the battles in between but it's a good point!

Part of me thinks that I may not follow the sources absolutely but rather go for a Westeros homage as it were - so my "stroppy northerner" army would consist of Westeros sounding names like Tunnocks and Minsterleys, led perhaps by Lord Neddard Sharpe. I like the look and feel of Westeros but don't want to be constrained by it.

Title: Re: Archers in Westeros armies
Post by: Paboook on May 17, 2015, 09:07:29 AM
I would recommend you to read this topic on the ASOIAF forum. There is huge amount of useful information including quotes regarding battles and warfere :)

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/91171-come-into-my-castle-the-ways-of-warfare-in-westeros-updated-and-psa-regarding-troop-quality/ (http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/91171-come-into-my-castle-the-ways-of-warfare-in-westeros-updated-and-psa-regarding-troop-quality/)
Title: Re: Archers in Westeros armies
Post by: YPU on May 17, 2015, 09:46:43 AM
That topic does indeed have a very useful collection of quotes.
Title: Re: Archers in Westeros armies
Post by: Gibby on May 17, 2015, 01:39:07 PM
Great quotes indeed!

As for archers; good ones take a long time to get good. I suspect that lords from all the different regions would all have some trained bowmen in their personal retinues. Sell-sword bands and such might feature bowmen, and they seem to be everywhere (described in the text as freeriders, but I think that might cover any kind of sell-sword band).
Title: Re: Archers in Westeros armies
Post by: Captain Blood on May 18, 2015, 09:18:48 AM
That topic does indeed have a very useful collection of quotes.

Yes, maybe...
The interesting thing about the quotes in that wiki entry is that most of them refer to pikes and pikemen.
Now as wargamers, we know that a 'pike' is a 16 - 18 foot long battlefield weapon, used by the Macedonians, their successors, and then in various medieval incarnations (Scots, Flemings) through to its heyday in the era of the pike blocks of the Swiss, Landsknechts, Spanish tercios and the English Civil War. By the end of which, the pike was pretty well redundant, and replaced within a couple of decades by the plug bayonet.

In my experience though, most authors of historical / fantasy novels are talking about something else entirely when they indiscriminately use the word 'pike'. They usually mean a much shorter polearm more akin to a bill, partizan or halberd. They just don't use the right word. Now I'm not necessarily saying this applies to GRRM, who generally seems to know his stuff, but it certainly applies to leading novelists like C J Sansom and Conn Iggulden - both of whom continually refer to 'pikes' when they are quite clearly talking about something else (viz. 'The guardsmen on the door crossed their pikes to bar Shardlake's path')

So, I do wonder, with all these references to pikes and pikemen in GoT, is Martin literally talking about 'pikemen' (as in drilled pike blocks armed with extremely long pikes), or is he just talking about a mass of mixed-polearm-armed infantry? What, in late medieval terms, we'd probably refer to as 'billmen'?

I suspect the latter, but I suppose we'll just have to ask him...  ;)
Title: Re: Archers in Westeros armies
Post by: Harry von Fleischmann on May 18, 2015, 11:30:21 AM
Good point re the pikes in the shardlake books! It sounds familiar, I suspect I self edited as I read to read half pikes. I've had a look at the post and it's a good compilation. Perhaps this is where we go our ways with our own visions, some of Swiss style pike blocks others more long spears shiltrons and others with serried ranks of assorted pole arms.

Perhaps the thing is that authors don't really need to get the detail of who wore what armour, which had been paid for how and stored wherever because a lot of readers just think "oh that's a lot of men in armour with pikes" and get on with it. Gives us something to chew over though which means that everyone can pursue there own vision of Westeros.

Thinking about visions of fantasy worlds, I always wanted a definitive LOTR range, then when GW produced one it seemed to make the vision smaller by defining it. A bit like the comment that the Big Rubble in RQ seemed a lot smaller once it had been mapped.

Sorry for going off topic a bit there....
Title: Re: Archers in Westeros armies
Post by: Captain Blood on May 18, 2015, 12:02:02 PM
I think you're spot on actually. HBO have effectively and inevitably 'defined' Westeros, and made it smaller in the imagination.
The whole point about fantasy worlds is that they're open to interpretation. People can and should portray the armies of Westeros however they see them from reading the books.
I'd rather people didn't take their lead from the telly.
The HBO/Weiss/Benioff vision of Westeros is very stylised in a particular direction.
Some elements are more or less how I saw them from the books, many aren't (in terms of how the various cultures are depicted - architecture, wardrobe, arms and armour, even climate and topography).

By my reading of the books, the world of Westeros (although not of Essos) is essentially a fairly homgenous 'knightly' culture in a broadly temperate climate from north to south and east to west.
This is certainly not how its portrayed in the HBO series. Because they need to portray much more distinctive and differentiated cultures for casual TV viewers to be able to understand who's who and how they differ.
So you have virtual Arabs in the south (Dorne) and virtual eskimos in the north (Wildlings) and the Starks are portrayed as only slightly less hairy unkempt proto-barbarians. This is not how they are described in the books, but many wargamers and modellers take the prescription from the TV series.

Personally, it's not how I see it from what's written in the books. But the great thing about it is that people can be as creative as they like in putting their own vision of Westeros together in 28 millimetres of plastic. And who's to say any of us are right or wrong?  :)
Title: Re: Archers in Westeros armies
Post by: Il Lord on May 18, 2015, 01:10:04 PM
We have to bear in mind that Martin likes to mix together elements from various times, he specifically stated that chainmail is more common in the north while plate armor is more common in the south (expecially in the Reach), this could help choosing which miniatures to use focusing on men at arms:
the north should correspond to XII/XIII century Knights so, fireforge should work well.
iron island = viking age (gripping beast), some houses employ limited amount of knights, so fireforge shoulg go as well
westerland, riverland, vale of arryn and crownlands early XV century, perry HYW should work well
the reach stormlands late XV century, perry WOTR is perfect
dorne correspond to swabian sicily, a mix of muslim and cristian miniatures should work well (bear in mind that sandy and salty dornishmen looks more "arabian" while stony dornishmen should look more "cristian")

this for the men at arms, for nobles (at least the rich ones) you could, universally, use plate armored miniatures; for levies I agree with Captain Blood there's not to much cultural difference (with the exception of Dorne), so you could use any miniature you want, you could use different sets to rappresent difference in wealt of regions (for northen levies a 50/50 ratio of GPB dark ages warriors and fireforge foot sergeants, while for riverlands you could use a 25/75 ratio) as well as different "fashions" (basically the distinctions i marked earlier for men at arms). I would use pikemen only for cities militia, the pikemen seen in the book all come from region with lage cities; archers there are but are not always seen (in the battle of the green fork wee see lannisters longbowmen, but no nothen arrows, this doesent mean that there'are not, simple Roose Bolton didn't use his crossbowmen beacause of his scheme).

Title: Re: Archers in Westeros armies
Post by: tomrommel1 on May 20, 2015, 07:54:11 AM
I think Il Lord is spot on here . I pick the figures for my Westeros Armies like he does.
Title: Re: Archers in Westeros armies
Post by: LordOdo on May 20, 2015, 08:56:04 AM
I agree completely with Il Lord. but personally I don't really like a very big difference between the Dornish and all the others. I pictured them not that different, only a bit more tanned, and wearing more leather instead of steel..
Title: Re: Archers in Westeros armies
Post by: LordOdo on May 20, 2015, 09:06:58 AM
Actually the only army I'd make quite different to the others are the Targaryens, as those would probabaly have a more Essos way of armory. But that's my opinion.
Title: Re: Archers in Westeros armies
Post by: Captain Blood on May 20, 2015, 09:07:42 AM
I agree completely with Il Lord. but personally I don't really like a very big difference between the Dornish and all the others. I pictured them not that different, only a bit more tanned, and wearing more leather instead of steel..

+1

Dorne is definitely not the Middle East. Essos includes the middle eastern type cultures.
Dorne is more a Mediterranean setting as described in the books.
The problem with the TV series is that they've made Kings Landing look like a sun-drenched, palm-fringed Mediterranean city (or actually an Adriatic city, because that's where half of the exterior scenes are flmed), rather than a north - middle European city, which is squarely what GRRM describes in the books.
So where have they got left to go when it comes to portraying Dorne, far to the south? Only somewhere even hotter, drier and more exotic.
I think it's all wrong, but there you go. It looks nice on the telly, and as Martin is an advisor on the series, presumably he must have been happy with how things are shown, even though a lot of it doesn't really accord culturally with what he describes in the books...
Title: Re: Archers in Westeros armies
Post by: Plynkes on May 20, 2015, 10:16:32 AM
It looks nice on the telly, and as Martin is an advisor on the series, presumably he must have been happy with how things are shown, even though a lot of it doesn't really accord culturally with what he describes in the books...

Haven't read the novels myself, so take what I say with a pinch of salt.

If you look at "The World of Ice and Fire" (a big coffee table book by Martin himself - supposedly), the illustrations depict the Wildlings pretty much like they are in the TV show, and depicts warriors from Dorne as looking very Moorish or Arabic in their fashion style. I'm guessing he approved the illustrations. So either he's not too particular about how his works are depicted or his notions of them were vague to begin with. After all, I'm not sure if he's a wargamer, and so he's probably not got the gene for agonising over this kind of stuff that wargamers do.

Also bear in mind that you need not leave the shores of Europe to find Moorish influence in Medieval times. I had always got the feeling (though as I said, I haven't read the books) that Dorne was supposed to be a rough analogue for medieval Spain.


Title: Re: Archers in Westeros armies
Post by: Captain Blood on May 20, 2015, 10:28:12 AM
Also bear in mind that you need not leave the shores of Europe to find Moorish influence in Medieval times. I had always got the feeling (though as I said, I haven't read the books) that Dorne was supposed to be a rough analogue for medieval Spain.


Yep, that's what I think too.

I think the main thing they've got wrong is they've shown Kings Landing as far too exotic, which puts everything else slightly out of kilter.

I think (and obviously, it's just my opinion) in Martin's initial thinking in the original novel (which was, let's remember, as GRRM has stated, inspired in part at least by the historical Wars of The Roses) Kings Landing was roughly analagous to London.  
I think that in the later novels, he probably evolved his thinking to re-imagine Kings Landing as a more typical, Gothic, high medieval European city - think Paris, or Prague perhaps.
But there's nothing in the books that I can recall that supports the depiction of a sun-drenched city of citrus trees and Romanesque architecture...

Anyway... There's no way to know for sure, so I shall shut up now  ;)
Title: Re: Archers in Westeros armies
Post by: LordOdo on May 20, 2015, 10:32:14 AM
The fun thing is, In Stockholm of all places I saw a building that made me think it looks like how I pictured Kingslanding  :D

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f3/Centralpostens_klocka_2012b.jpg/250px-Centralpostens_klocka_2012b.jpg)
That's how I imagined the Great sept of Baelor
Title: Re: Archers in Westeros armies
Post by: Paboook on May 20, 2015, 10:56:53 AM
I have seen an interview with GRRM the other day, and he claimed hat "The World of Ice and Fire" is based on illustrations that show his word quite plausibly. He was especially pedant about the castles and some of them were painted in close cooperation between him and the painters. I have to say that some of them (like Dragonstone) seem to me too fancy. I prefer grim and dirty medieval look to "high fantasy" :)
Title: Re: Archers in Westeros armies
Post by: Captain Blood on May 20, 2015, 11:46:49 AM
Pretty sure we've had this conversation here before on LAF, but I think most of the 'The World of Ice and Fire' illustrations are the same visuals used in the popular Fantasy Flight boardgames and CCG.

These predate the advent of the HBO series by a few years, and in my opinion are - in most cases anyway - a lot closer to what is described in the books.

So interestingly, you have two extensive and lavishly realised 'authorised' visual interpretations of the GoT universe. One by a publisher of books and games, and a slightly later one by HBO / Weiss / Benioff. Martin allegedly acted as consultant-cum-client to a greater or lesser extent on both. And yet, while there are of course some broad similarities, there are also a lot of differences, particularly in the depiction of the characters, style of dress, armour, and so on.

Interesting isn't it? GRRM has signed off on two often quite different realisations of his fictional world and characters. Both cannot be right - or can they? Is he just saying: 'make of it what you will - that's the whole point of fantasy'? :)
Title: Re: Archers in Westeros armies
Post by: Paboook on May 20, 2015, 12:47:47 PM
What GRRM actually says is he gave HBO free hand and is perfectly fine with any changes made in the TV series. He seems to be much more pedant in the case of book products. Take a look on this interview: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vcy-EhkHXnE EDIT: full video here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jzdCwc9ro3g

In any case, each one of us has probably his/her own idea how Westeros REALLY looks like :)
Title: Re: Archers in Westeros armies
Post by: Dr. Zombie on May 20, 2015, 01:10:27 PM
In the books. When John Snow becomes commander og the Black Watch he introduces archery practice. That has been neglected by the previous more knightly commanders, who favoured swords and lance. Witch makes sense because a sword and lance are not much use when defending a 700 foot high wall. A bow is much more usefull.
Title: Re: Archers in Westeros armies
Post by: Harry von Fleischmann on May 20, 2015, 05:53:06 PM
Good point Dr! I am idly wondering if there isn't some hint of doctrinal confusion in the Watch? Clearly the Wall was meant to keep the Others out but as time passed this defensive stance was clouded and replaced by a more aggressive "forward" strategy which focused more on the Wildlings as an enemy than anyone else? That may explain a shift of emphasis away from widespread effective use of bows. That could coincide with the arrival of noble "recruits" who naturally prefer the arm Blanche rather than the peasants bow and who still wanted to go out and biff someone, not just hold the wall against an enemy who was by now pure superstition to many.

I'm probably reading to much into it.
Title: Re: Archers in Westeros armies
Post by: Vermis on May 21, 2015, 01:55:59 PM
In my experience though, most authors of historical / fantasy novels are talking about something else entirely when they indiscriminately use the word 'pike'...

So, I do wonder, with all these references to pikes and pikemen in GoT, is Martin literally talking about 'pikemen' (as in drilled pike blocks armed with extremely long pikes), or is he just talking about a mass of mixed-polearm-armed infantry? What, in late medieval terms, we'd probably refer to as 'billmen'?

Food for thought... I had originally imagined Starks/Northerners with pikes and Lannisters/Southerners with bills, for reasons that escape me at this point. Now I'm imagining well-paid, drilled Lannisters or mercenary companies armed with pike, and northern rabble armed with bills, spears etc. Not too unreasonable...?


I'd rather people didn't take their lead from the telly.

I hear that. I have the sneaking feeling the look of the HBO series was designed to ride on whatever little wave of popularity the LotR movies still had. Having Boromir up front and centre helped with that little conspiracy theory.

the north should correspond to XII/XIII century Knights so, fireforge should work well.

What happens if you don't really like FF minis?  >:D

as Martin is an advisor on the series, presumably he must have been happy with how things are shown, even though a lot of it doesn't really accord culturally with what he describes in the books...

If you look at "The World of Ice and Fire" (a big coffee table book by Martin himself - supposedly), the illustrations depict the Wildlings pretty much like they are in the TV show, and depicts warriors from Dorne as looking very Moorish or Arabic in their fashion style. I'm guessing he approved the illustrations. So either he's not too particular about how his works are depicted or his notions of them were vague to begin with. After all, I'm not sure if he's a wargamer, and so he's probably not got the gene for agonising over this kind of stuff that wargamers do.

What GRRM actually says is he gave HBO free hand and is perfectly fine with any changes made in the TV series.

I had heard that GRRM wasn't too happy with the look they went with. I can't provide many citations, though. I do remember leafing through HBO's book on the series, with it's back few pages filled with quotes of praise from the cast and crew. Given 'wot I herd', I thought GRRM's quote was notable by it's absence.

Also, Plynkes:

Quote
After all, I'm not sure if he's a wargamer

Not a wargamer AFAIK, but he does have a fair collection of model knights:

http://www.georgerrmartin.com/for-fans/knights/

On that note, and considering things 'approved by GRRM', did everyone forget the Dark Sword range?

http://www.darkswordminiatures.com/shop/index.php/miniatures/george-r-r-martin-masterworks.html

Does that inform anyone's miniature choices for the various factions? Personally it makes me think that FF would probably be the closest match for Starks, which irritates me a bit. But I think I can do just about enough mental gymnastics to put Perry HYW French in the role.