Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => Fantasy Adventures => Topic started by: Siaba on October 24, 2008, 12:31:33 PM
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Being a great fan of Michael Moorcock books and a long time player of Stormbringer/Elric RPG, I have recently started collecting Melnibonean and Pan Tangian figures made by Citadel in 1987 to use them for wargaming.
Has anyone done such a thing ?
Any suggestion for possible ruleset to use ?
I don't know many fantasy figures manufacturers (being mostly an historical figures player), so I would gladly receive any suggestion of figures to use to represent peoples from the Young Kingdoms (other than Melniboneans and Pan Tangians of course ;) ).
Thanks for your help! :)
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After Citadel lost the Stormbringer! license, they rolled the Melnibonean figure range into their Warhammer High Elf range for a while (and they rolled some of the Pan Tangians into their Chaos range) so I would suggest the current edition of the Warhammer Fantasy Battle game as a ruleset (you could you the Mordheim skirmish rules if you want to fight smaller battles).
Some of the Personality figures from the Citadel Eternal Champion line (Smiorgan Baldhead, etc.) were rolled into the Warhammer Empire line, so Empire or Bretonnian figures might be acceptable to represent some of the Young Kingdoms (skip any figures using gunpowder weapons, of course).
Since the Young Kingdoms are supposed to be barbaric (in the view of the Melniboneans and their imitators the Pan-Tangians, anyway...). You might want to consider a figure line that is more specifically barbarians. IIRC Michael Moorcock said that he drew a lot of his inspiration for the Conan series of stories by Robert E. Howard.
Ral Partha Europe has several figure lines that might be serviceable to represent the Young Kingdoms:
https://www.connectstores.com/ralpartha/sp_30101.html
https://www.connectstores.com/ralpartha/sp_16801.html
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Yes, Warhammer or LotR could be suitable rulesets to wargame in the Young Kingdoms.
Empire and Bretonia figures are, however, too close to their historical counterparts (Renaissance and Late Middle Age europeans) for my taste.
I really like Ral Partha figures. There are enough figures types to build armies and they can't be associated to an historical model.
I used to buy Ral Partha figures 20 years ago, but I found them much thinner than other manufacturer's figures. Is this still the case ?
As I use Citadel figures for Melniboneans and Pan Tangians, other figures must match these in size.
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As I use Citadel figures for Melniboneans and Pan Tangians, other figures must match these in size.
Due to scale creep, the Citadel figures of today are considerably larger than the Citadel figures of 20 years ago. The Ral Partha lines shown in the links are roughly in scale with the older Citadel lines (maybe a hair smaller).
When I say Citadel Empire & Bretonnians, I don't neccessarily mean the current range of figures- If you're going to reach back into the past for your Melniboneans and your Pan-Tangians, then you might as well for your Young Kingdoms figures too:
Things like this:
http://www.solegends.com/citcat912/c20234brettmilitia.htm
http://www.solegends.com/citcat912/c20235brettmilitia.htm
or this:
http://www.solegends.com/citcat912/c20238norse.htm
http://www.solegends.com/citcat912/c20239norse.htm
http://www.solegends.com/citcat912/c20240norse.htm
http://www.solegends.com/citcat912/c20241norse.htm
or this:
http://www.solegends.com/citcat912/c20284rcchthugs.htm
http://www.solegends.com/citcat912/c20285rcchthugs.htm
Of course, these will be expensive and hard-to-acquire, but then again so will Melniboneans...
Anther solution might be to use the Ral Partha Elves as your Melniboneans and some other Ral Partha lines as your Pan-Tangians and your Young Kingdoms figures.
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What kind of cultures do the Young Kingdoms represent? I'm woefully ignorant about the world of Elric (not for want of interest, but with the whole "Multiverse" thing it's difficult to know where to start reading Moorcock's stories).
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Things were simpler back in the day (when all of Moorcock's Eternal Champion books were segregated by character: the Elric series, the Corum Series, the Hawkmoon series, etc.). The vagaries of the publishing industry have made much more of a hash of things lately.
In the world of Elric, the Young Kingdoms are upstart nations and city states, following in the wake of the decadent Melnibone and their imitators from the Sorcerer's Isle of Pan-Tang. Although the Young Kingdoms are looked down on by the Melniboneans (and presumably the Pan-Tangians) as barbarians, there isn't that much difference between them in terms of technology. The Melniboneans have a stagnant culture, hidden on their island home behind a near-impregnable sea-maze and protected by their invincible battle barges. In the dim past, the Melniboneans controlled many Dragons and powerful sorcery gained through pacts with various Demons, Elementals & Chaos Lords but by the time of the Young Kingdoms they are almost completely decadent and inward-looking.
The Pan-Tangians can be seen as the oldest of the Young Kingdoms and their culture is described as a crude imitation of Melnibone's.
The Young Kingdoms themselves are pretty ill-defined and thinly written, so I suppose that you could make of them what you wished on the tabletop (although their armies would be pretty rag-tag and ill-equipped compared to the elite troops of imperial Melnibone...).
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What kind of cultures do the Young Kingdoms represent? I'm woefully ignorant about the world of Elric (not for want of interest, but with the whole "Multiverse" thing it's difficult to know where to start reading Moorcock's stories).
I started with Hawkmoon, then elric, and finally corum gave up after that really it all follows a theme
talking abvout this makes me want to look out my elric books.
dodge
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What kind of cultures do the Young Kingdoms represent? I'm woefully ignorant about the world of Elric (not for want of interest, but with the whole "Multiverse" thing it's difficult to know where to start reading Moorcock's stories).
Heldrak answered well: the Young Kingdoms are pretty il-defined and thinly written.
But we have a few clues nonetheless:
Dharijor is an expansionist state ruled by a king and a small noble class. Cavalry are equipped with horse armour and described as knights. Armour and helmet plumes are generally black although nobles may have more colour and decoration. King Sarasto is noted as wearing dark yellow armour.
Foot soldiers are mentioned in black armour and equipped with halberds. Archers are assumed from the description of a battle involving Dharijorian troops which opens with ‘a rattling black cloud’ of arrows.
Jharkor is ruled by a king and a nobility (although after the death of King Dharmit, Queen Yishana assumes the throne). Jharkorian knights are recorded in gold armour, charging at the gallop with drawn longswords.
Infantry weapons are not described but probably are a mix of bow, javelin and spear. Infantry can be supplemented by camp followers, slaves and serfs. It is not clear whether the latter formed some kind of ‘rising out.’
The White Leopards are an elite guard of 500 picked men who ‘run as swiftly as horses, are as strong as mountain cats and ferocious as blood-mad sharks – they are trained to kill and killing is all they know.’ They are wiped out fighting a rearguard action, in the face of hopeless odds, at the battle of Sequaloris. They fight on foot and are clad in silver armour emblazoned with a leopard.
Tarkesh is a northern state that provides excellent sailors and ships. Galleys are long and low with a single bank of 10-50 pairs of oars crewed exclusively by free warriors. These men tend to be short and dark faced with black hair and beards.
Horsemen are described as knights clad in thick blue armour with red, purple or white plumes and armed with lances. Foot soldiers outnumber horse by about five to one. Infantry weapons are not described but, given the nautical influence of Tarkesh, are likely to be a mix of sword, axe and bow.
Purple towns is an island specialising in trade and ruled by a council of merchants consisting of the nine wealthiest men.
Armour is generally toughened brown leather supplemented by ornate gilded breastplates and helmets. Cloaks and banners are exclusively purple. Some individuals are noted as carrying large axes that require some strength to wield and this may suggest a trained core. Ships crew are generally armed with cutlasses and shortswords.
Shazaar is ruled by a monarchy. Although mostly farmland, Shazaar borders a range of bleak wastelands. Shazaar is famed for its cavalry, ‘wild riders but clever fighters and well disciplined.’ These may be analogous with a range of frontier or marcher forces such as early Norman knights, Anglo-Scottish border horse or eastern European Cossack or Deli cavalry.
Shazaarians are described as wearing bronze armour under grey, brown and black jackets.
Foot troops are presumed to be militia raised from farms with cavalry being provided by retained medium and heavy ‘feudal’ troops supplemented by light horse used to animal herding.
Lormyr, Argimiliar, Pykaraid and Filkhar (southern barbarians): blue and white checked clothing is most common. Breeches and cloaks can also be worn in bright colours, scarlet and green is noted, some of these will be checked also. The clothing gives these forces a celtic flavour which is carried though to the troop types. Some armour can also be checked.
Filkhar is noted for its long handled axes.
Ilmioria is a pleasant land of forest and farmland divided in a number of large city states or Duchies. As suggested, each state is presided over by a Duke supplemented by a council of advisors. The Duchies are bound together by treaties and trade agreements and have formed a national senate. Sorcery is rarely practised and Law is the nominal allegiance.
Fur caps and chequered cloaks are common clothing as are colourful doublets and hose. Ilmioria is also noted for producing fine tooled leather.
Vilmir is a nation dominated by Law. A religious and noble hierarchy presides over a harsh and bureaucratic tax regime. Although nominally headed by a king, the land is often subject to civil war between conflicting noble groups. A reasonable parallel may be medieval England suring the reigns of King Stephen or Richard I but with excessive church influence.
All adult males spend five years in Vilmir’s military, serving in one of five legions. The Grey Defenders are a military elite acting as a combined internal security unit and thought police.
Most citizens wear drab grey with nobles clad in austere white or black.
All of this was found in the HOTT supplement "Wargaming in the Age of Elric of Melnibonē" by Declan McHenry.
Any ideas for suitable figures, someone ?
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Most of the descriptions seem to fit in with figures from the Goths at the time of the Fall of Rome through to the Normans, Vikings and Saxons etc of 1066 and that's how I've always imagined the Young Kingdoms. Late Roman cavalry would be ideal for those mentioned using "knights", as of course would Normans. Add a few plumes etc where required and they would fit the bill. There are enough different figures and colour schemes to make each nation distinct from the rest. For a more barbaric look to the cavalry, you could try Huns or Mongols.
For manufacturers, try Foundry, http://www.wargamesfoundry.com/main.asp
Gripping Beast, http://grippingbeast.com/
Black Tree, http://www.blacktreedesign.com/home.html
Renegade, http://www.renegademiniatures.com/sen.htm
and Old Glory, http://oldglory25s.com/view_product.php?product=MW144
amongst a host of other manufacturers for this period.
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From those descriptions and from what few pictures I can find online that seem to depict soldiers of the young kingdoms, I'm presuming a fairly Northern/Western European style but with a hint of what I would call "undefined exoticism", perhaps brought on by contact (if there is any) with Melniboné and Pan Tang. For nations described as "barbaric", they seem to put on quite a lot of civilized airs, at least insofar as not fitting into the Howardesque definition of barbarians as fur-clad savages with primitive warrior societies. Here are some ranges of miniatures that come to mind as worth checking out.
Black Tree has no less than three fantasy ranges with a fairly classic, "early Citadel" kind of look (though there are some newer sculpts in there, too). Check out especially the Helsinians and Saracens from the Harlequin Fantasy range and the Corsairs, Horse Lords, and Men of the East, South and West from the Legions of the Realm range. They've got lots of Elves too, if you're willing to go that far. BTW, note that there's a 35% discount if you sign up on their website (which seems to be free, though you might have to put up with some newsletters).
http://www.blacktreedesign.com/uk/home.php?cat=2309 (http://www.blacktreedesign.com/uk/home.php?cat=2309)
Mirliton has the old Grenadier range where you might find some suitable humans.
http://www.mirliton.it/index.php?cName=fantasy-2528mm (http://www.mirliton.it/index.php?cName=fantasy-2528mm)
Vendel has some fantasy humans too, but I can't seem to access their website as I'm writing this.
http://vendelminiatures.co.uk/ (http://vendelminiatures.co.uk/)
West Wind has the Dwarf Wars Nordvolk, though I hear these are very big sculpts.
http://www.westwindproductions.co.uk/catalog/index.php?cPath=1_16 (http://www.westwindproductions.co.uk/catalog/index.php?cPath=1_16)
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Thank you very much for your help and suggestions. :)
Size compatibility with the Citadel figures will be an important factor in choosing a figure range. Being first an historical wargamer, I must say I enjoy Gluteus Maximums ideas of using historical figure ranges.
I thought about using FOUNDRY celts and picts to represent southern barbarians. Arthurians could be nice for Ilmiorians and Late Romans for Vilmirians.
I thought about using Vikings with a suitable paint job for Tarkeshites.
I have a problem with knights. It seems they wore plate armours and plumes, so Late romans cataphracts would be unsuitable and knights from historical range would be too "historical" for a fantasy universe. The Ral Partha knights shown by Heldrak would be nice figures.
What would you use for Shazaarians ? Mongols, Huns, Parthians ?
I have also a problem with Dharijor and Jarkhor. The names sounds oriental to me but these kingdoms are situated in the northern par of the world. Any suggestions for them ?
Does anyone know a figure manufacturer with winged men in its range to depict Myrrhin ?
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All of this was found in the HOTT supplement "Wargaming in the Age of Elric of Melnibonē" by Declan McHenry.
Which is available about 2/3 the way down this page (update date 10th August 2003):
http://www.btinternet.com/~alan.catherine/wargames/newstron.htm
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Thank you very much for your help and suggestions. :)
Size compatibility with the Citadel figures will be an important factor in choosing a figure range. Being first an historical wargamer, I must say I enjoy Gluteus Maximums ideas of using historical figure ranges.
I thought about using FOUNDRY celts and picts to represent southern barbarians. Arthurians could be nice for Ilmiorians and Late Romans for Vilmirians.
I thought about using Vikings with a suitable paint job for Tarkeshites.
I have a problem with knights. It seems they wore plate armours and plumes, so Late romans cataphracts would be unsuitable and knights from historical range would be too "historical" for a fantasy universe. The Ral Partha knights shown by Heldrak would be nice figures.
What would you use for Shazaarians ? Mongols, Huns, Parthians ?
I have also a problem with Dharijor and Jarkhor. The names sounds oriental to me but this kingdoms are situated in the northern par of the world. Any suggestions for them ?
Does anyone know a figure manufacturer with winged men in its range to depict Myrrhin ?
If you're concerned about scale comparisons, you may want to be careful with Foundry as there is some wide variance in their ranges. Some of their older ranges are tiny, closer to 25mm than 28mm and some of their later ranges are larger (but still small in comparison to modern-day Citadel Miniatures).
Considerations of East/West/North/South should be irrelevant as the world of the Young Kingdoms takes place in a time before pre-history and current notions of what cultures inhabit particular geographic regions don't apply.
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You might also consider that just because the Melniboneans referred to the rest of the world as barbarians, you don't have to think dark ages here. The Greek called everyone barbarians, even though there were peoples around them with similar levels of technology and civilization. Several of the list posted mentioned heavy armor or knights. That's going to be tough to find plate armor in a barbarian miniature.
I'm working on a similar project and using High Elves for Melniboneans, Dark Elves for Pan Tangians, and probably mostly armies from the Middle Ages. I'm thinking of using more Eastern European troops to give a more exotic feel.
-J
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This is an idea that has been floating around in the back of my head for years, so I am interested to see what occurs with this project.
I always thought that the Ral Partha Fantasy Armies Elves would make perfect Imryrrians, because they remind me very much of the illustrations from the old First/Pacific Comics adaptations by P. Craig Russel, Michael T. Gilbert, Roy Thomas and Jan Duursema.
Have a look:
http://www.connectstores.com/ralpartha/sp_30481.html
As far as the other nations of the young Kingdoms go, a mix of styles from historical ranges would get my vote. If you can track down any of the above mnentioned comics, they would provide you with plenty of inspiration. (No, you can't have mine! lol)
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Several of the list posted mentioned heavy armor or knights. That's going to be tough to find plate armor in a barbarian miniature.
It's true, but as plate armor and knights are so often mentionned, I think I'll use Dark Age style rank and file mixed with a few units of knights.
I'm working on a similar project and using High Elves for Melniboneans, Dark Elves for Pan Tangians, and probably mostly armies from the Middle Ages. I'm thinking of using more Eastern European troops to give a more exotic feel.
In my imagination, Pan Tangian looks like ancient Assyrians. So bearded Dark Elves maybe ? :D
I realy like the GW Pan Tangian range, even if the figures are hard to find. I'll stick to this range to build a Pan Tangian army. But GW plastic cold ones could be used to make Pan Tang six-legged giant reptiles.
As far as the other nations of the young Kingdoms go, a mix of styles from historical ranges would get my vote. If you can track down any of the above mnentioned comics, they would provide you with plenty of inspiration. (No, you can't have mine! )
Could we have some scans of the pictures, please ? :)
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Siaba, If you don't mind waiting until tonight, I'll see if I can scan some and post the pics.
I seem to remember there is a good spread of pictures from the Sailor on the Seas of Fate, when they are on the island with the pirates from different countries and times, and the illustrations in the Stormbringer adaptation are everything you would expect from P. Craig Russel.
Leave it with me, anyway. ;)
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No problem Jollybob, I can wait for several days if necessary.
Warfare in the Young Kingdoms is a long term project. I'm just beginning to collect miniatures and informations for the moment. :)
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Hey Siaba,
These actually weren't as useful as I'd remembered, but you might find something in there to create a spark in your own imagination.
First up we have (from Stormbringer) Elric and some Imryrrian troops at the very top, Tarkeshites in top left, the winged men of Myrrhn top right, Shazarians bottom left and the famous White Leopards at the bottom right.
(http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/bb155/GrunterPulpit/Elric%20comic%20scans/YK1.jpg)
Second (also from Stormbringer) the king of Dharijor, Jagreen Lern -Theocrat of Pan Tang, and a couple of frames of Pan Tangian soldiers.
(http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/bb155/GrunterPulpit/Elric%20comic%20scans/YK2.jpg)
Third, the brigands from Sailor on the Seas of Fate, various nationalities and time periods.
(http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/bb155/GrunterPulpit/Elric%20comic%20scans/YK3.jpg)
Fourth, another version of the White Leopards, more barbaric in style (from The Weird of the White Wolf).
(http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/bb155/GrunterPulpit/Elric%20comic%20scans/YK4.jpg)
Fifth, Theleb Ka'arna and the Kelmain Host of half-men from The Vanishing Tower.
(http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/bb155/GrunterPulpit/Elric%20comic%20scans/YK5.jpg)
Sixth, some members of the Easterling horde from beyond the Weeping Waste (The Bane of the Black Sword)
(http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/bb155/GrunterPulpit/Elric%20comic%20scans/YK6.jpg)
And finally, a shot of the unidentified "Southlander" pirate captain from Elric of Melnibone's fight in the Sea Maze.
(http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/bb155/GrunterPulpit/Elric%20comic%20scans/YK7.jpg)
Like I said, probably not as useful as I had remembered them being, but I hope you can find something in there of help.
(And sorry for the huge, bandwidth stealing post. :()
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Thank you very much, Jollybob!! :)
you might find something in there to create a spark in your own imagination.
You're right. Even if corresponding figures would be hard to find, that's a good guideline for the more obscure nations. It'll be useful. ;)
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You're welcome.
The rest of the ilustrations were mainly generic fantasy/medieval types, not really worth bothering scanning pictures of blokes in boots, doublet and cape really as there's plenty of source material for that out there.
Berst of luck with the project, please keep us updated with it. :)
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Thank you very much. I'll post updates of the project.
In the meantime, anyone having pictures of the Young Kingdoms inhabitant (or fantasy figures ranges to suggest ;)) is welcome. :)
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Thank you very much. I'll post updates of the project.
In the meantime, anyone having pictures of the Young Kingdoms inhabitant (or fantasy figures ranges to suggest ;)) is welcome. :)
So anyway now you have me back into reading Elric after 15 years absence and reminding me of why I bought stormbringer the rpg all those years back, don't know where its gone now.
I have looked at a few ranges and think that Reaper Dark Heavens range looks promising, I have purchased some highlanders, barbarians and some warriors of kjord which seem to fit thebill for southern barbarians and are nice sculpts.
the west wind range of elves looks promising for melniboneans as do the nordfolk for other humans
and the assault group do some nice renaisance figures poles, ottomans etc.. which may fit for other nations.
don't know about size compatibility but I hope that helps
dodge
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Thank you very much! :)
I don't want to use historical figures as they would make me think to their historical counterparts. But I'll have a close look at the REAPER range you mentionned.
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I was just thinking about this again the other day when I was looking at the Sidhe miniatures for Celtos:
http://www.brigademodels.co.uk/NoFrames/CLT/CLTThe%20Sidhe.html
It occurred to me that they would make excellent Imryrrians, and actually remind me of some of the illustrations I mentioned in my earlier post. If I remember later tonight I will try and find some decent pictures in the comics and scan them for you to show you what I mean.
They even have a passable Elric:
(http://www.brigademodels.co.uk/Pics/CLT/CLT-107.jpg)
And a sneaky looking Yyrkoon:
(http://www.brigademodels.co.uk/Pics/CLT/CLT-101.jpg)
The only drawback is that there isn't a lot of variation in the range, but there is certainly enough for most basic troop types. Funky weird dragon rider things too. :)
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oh man those are cool looking , I had thought of looking at the celtos range and those really fit the images in my head especially yrkoon.
wow
I'm really getting into this thread its grrrrrrrrrrrreat..........
dodge
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Okay, here's the clearest pictures I can find from the comics (both from Elric of Melnibone, art by P. Craig Russel)
(http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/bb155/GrunterPulpit/Elric%20comic%20scans/Mel2.jpg)
(http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/bb155/GrunterPulpit/Elric%20comic%20scans/Mel1.jpg)
I think the Celtos Sidhe would make pretty good proxies for them:
(http://www.brigademodels.co.uk/Pics/CLT/CLT-157.jpg)
I'm talking myself into yet another project here... :? lol
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I think I'm already in, Reaper minis on the way ordered friday. Delivered to home the wife is going to kick my useless butt
and now these celtos minis too, bugger and botheration >:D
dodge
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Elric
http://www.hasslefreeminiatures.co.uk/productionqueue.php
Scroll down to Ceril, pretty much how i always viewed elric. Thinking of picking him up and just putting him in any game I run.
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Thank you!
You're right. This figure could easily be used for Elric.
But finding the original Citadel Elric figures isn't so difficult. Melnibonean rank and files are more difficult to obtain and Pan Tangian warriors seems to be very rare :-[
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(http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w198/svennnthedhnut/Melnibone/Helmbow.jpg)
(http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w198/svennnthedhnut/Melnibone/Helmaxe.jpg)
(http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w198/svennnthedhnut/Melnibone/Hornedhelmspear.jpg)
(http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w198/svennnthedhnut/Melnibone/Bareheadbow.jpg)
(http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w198/svennnthedhnut/Melnibone/Helmspear.jpg)
(http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w198/svennnthedhnut/Melnibone/Helmmace.jpg)
My friend still has these for sale - £2.00 each plus postage at cost.
Svennn
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This is also a project I have been dabbling with over the last few years.
Given that the GW/Citadel High Elf and Dark Elf ranges susbsumed many of the Eternal Champions range figures, I decided to use these to model a Melnibonean army, practically unaltered, led by my Eternal Cahampions Elric figure. The High Elves, in particular the 'Dragon Princes', and others have been given a more sinister makeover to create Imrryrian nobles.
Other infantry such as swordsmen and axemen have been given various unusual colour schemes to the same effect (sadly out of focus)
(http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x200/sukhe_bator/Elric%20of%20Melnibone/melniboneans001.jpg~original)
The latest plastic Dark Elves on Cold Ones are well worth a punt as Pan Tangian cavalry, if you don't mind their Reptile mounts losing 2 legs in translation and doing some ear-hacking. A lot of the Dark Elf motifs - kraken, octopi etc are a homage to the original Pan Tangian figures.
I'm in the process of adapting a GW Lotr Fell Beast and High Elf rider to recreate the classic Rodney Matthews poster of Elric and the dragons...
(http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x200/sukhe_bator/Elric%20of%20Melnibone/dracoheadandrider.jpg~original)
While some of the GW demonic creations with Chaos emblems do well as minions/manifestations of Arioch
(http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x200/sukhe_bator/Elric%20of%20Melnibone/Arioch2.jpg~original)
Black Tree Design (I think) even do a giant toad swallowing someone!
ATM I'm modelling some Giant Owls to recreate (ultimately) both sides at the Battle of Sequaloris. The winged Myrrhyn may also have to be scratchbuilt, though there are some good wing sets out there available for making conversions.
For Young Kingdoms nations I take the classic illustrations from the books and references in the novels (slender though these are). These cite jerkins, brigandines, jacks, as well as long swords and plate armour. This screams High Medieval HYW or Wars of the Roses to me, but with a fantasy twist. I quite fancy a regiment of Pavisier equipped HYW spearmen as Jharkorian infantry, with possibly Hussites as Shazarian or Tarkeshite infantry, supplemented by various C14-C15 cavalry, possibly utilising medieval Russians, Poles or other more exotically equipped troops. With so little references to go on, you can either argue that there's too little to go on or use it as a blank canvas for your imagination. I quite fancy doing ALL the Jharkorian troops with variations on the leopard/lion blazon - in different heraldic poses and field colours, but reserving white for Queen Yishana and her bodyguard...That could look rather good imo.
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Very inspiring, Sukhe Bator!! :)
I'll perhaps follow your example except for Pan Tangians which I imagine fat and bearded lol
Nice idea to place the Young Kingdoms in a HYW technological level.
Don't hesitate to post more pictures of your armies!! ;)
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Will do so. Next off the production line will be one of my Giant Owls. It is still very much a wire armature covered in Green stuff at present
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Latest pics of work in progress - Green of a Giant owl awaiting the addition of feather detailing
(http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x200/sukhe_bator/Elric%20of%20Melnibone/DSC02156.jpg~original)
(http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x200/sukhe_bator/Elric%20of%20Melnibone/DSC02157.jpg~original)
And two misc. figures from the spares box retrofitted with some old Ral Partha wings to become Winged men of Myrrhyn
(http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x200/sukhe_bator/Elric%20of%20Melnibone/DSC02158.jpg~original)
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Wow , clever that owl is a right beast and a half :D
dodge
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Latest pic of the Giant Owl - still a long way to go but at least I've now done the primary feathers and most of the top wing
(http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x200/sukhe_bator/Elric%20of%20Melnibone/DSC02205.jpg~original)
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well done that is coming along well, impressive :D
dodge
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Yes, very impressive.Nice work.
Don't hesitate to post other pictures of your armies, Sukhe-bator. ;)
Not much avancement on my side at the time present. Too many things to do with historical projects. But I still continue to buy CITADEL figures and have a more precise idea of figures I'll use for other peoles of th Young kingdoms.
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Great ideas here. I haven't read Moorcock for years - must dig out the old Elric books - Hawkmoon was my favourite I think
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There would be nice things to do with Hawkmoon too. Lot of battles in the books.
The main problem is to represent the "Grandbretons" (sorry, don't know the english word for them) and their masks. But a rang of lead or resin mask woud allow to make conversions with WOTR or early renaissance figures :)
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Granbretan - presque la meme chose (excuse my terrible French!)
The beast masks were an inspiration, I thought - I liked the way they had their own languages as well, sounding a bit like the animals they represented
Count Brass was very cool too
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Your french is excellent!
I like the Hawkmoon books too. The tragic millenium setting is a great idea.
I mastered the Hawkmoon rpg when it was translated (and improved) in french. This rpg got a lot of success in France and local authors have added many companion books who describes the world more deeply. There were even a book on tragic millenium fleets with rules for naval battles. Great inspiration, too!
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Any suggestions on a good figure for Count Brass?
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I always though the leader of this lot would make a good Count Brass:
(http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1251913_99110214033_ColWHVolandBoxMain_445x319.jpg)
Voland's Venators from the GW Dogs of War. Its probably down to the paint scheme as much as anything else. Still, he'd be a good base for a conversion.
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He looks the part - give him a flame-lance.
I like the horse-armour
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Any suggestions on a good figure for Count Brass?
Well, if I remember the pictures in the rpg well any knight figure with a moustache could do the trick. The one shown by Jollybob is nice. I would just had longer hairs with greenstuff and paint him as an old man.
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Had a closer look at the Perry Miniatures plastic boxed sets of Wars of the Roses figures the other day. For under 20 GBP for 40 infantry or 12 mounted figures they seem an absolute must for Young Kingdoms troops...
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Well, I would rather had used them for Tragic Millenium armies.....with some wolf or hawk resin heads, they coul even pass as Greatbritons ;)
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Nice idea Siaba!
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The current 'consensual / standard appearance' of Elves (with their distinctive suppository-shaped helmets) comes from Minifigs 'Aureola Rococo' ones and early Citadel miniatures, both ranges taken straight from Rodney Matthews' covers for Elric books (the Citadel / Marauder Dark Elves were sold at first as Melniboneans).
(http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRia5L35PtMRPqMff4_3dPpOKczgvhOYFLF5yeCoD6YohGr1ntF&t=1)
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-n_ypFRLB-eU/TwNFBzZWV1I/AAAAAAAAAPI/Zj2dc800UlM/s1600/Elric-and-Moonglum-Rodney-Matthews.jpg)
(http://lcrazzy1.narod.ru/image/fantasy/rodney_matthews/Matthews_Rodney_102_Lost_In_Limbo.jpg)
Thus good Dark Elves would provide the Melniboneans (the Imperials clad in 'Chinese imperial' yellow, Cymoril's Leibstandarte in sky blue -in exile they turned less uniform and with 'barbarian' details, but DE with cloaks of reptilian skin, for instance, would fit the bill).
Long ago Archive produced a limited 'Elric' range; their cataphracts of Shazar were not bad *for their time of sculpting*
(http://www.dndlead.com/Archive/Archive/305%20Cataphracts%20of%20Shazar.JPG)
but quite generic (without even the plume mentioned in the novel): far better cataphracts are available now; a Renaissance Turk / Persian / Moghul heavy cavalryman riding an Ancient cataphract horse would probably come even closer to the written description.
The Pan Tang marines and navy officers wear breastplates (or full back- and breastplate cuirass) over mail or scale armor; sounds rather 'Late Byzantine' 'Saracen'?
The original, quite distinctive Minifigs Aureola Rococo (http://www.solegends.com/minifigs/mfar.htm) 'Knights of the Silver Rose (http://www.miniatures-workshop.com/lostminiswiki/index.php?title=Knights_of_the_Silver_Rose)' (already of quite 'heroic' size) and also available mounted: left :
(http://www.solegends.com/minifigs/mfarrosecav.jpg)
would set a Young Kingdom -or maybe even Melnibonean?- army apart from mainstream 'quasi-medieval' Fantasy. The same for the Sharadan Lords of Darkness (http://www.solegends.com/minifigs/mfarsharwiz.htm). I read that some parts of the AR range are re-issued?
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Yes, Byzantine or armoured arabs could pass as pan tangians.
Concerning the cataphract, he as a distinct sarmatian look in my opinion.
Thank you, as always, for this very informative stuff, Abdul ;) :)
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Btw, Siaba, what about the Ténèbres du Siècle des Lumières (http://husarenritt.blogspot.fr/search/label/Weird%20Seven%20Year%20Wars)?
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_6ii_svcr9uA/SZqal0kXJ7I/AAAAAAAABEg/cOu39tijsUw/s320/P2170874.JPG)
I try to promote the genre on the TMP '18th C. Imagi-Nations' board (http://theminiaturespage.com/boards/topics.mv?id=288) on of course here (http://www.drunkendragoonproductions.com/18thcentimagi-nation/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=81#p409).
Do you follow the great 'Devil in Jersey (http://bogdanwaz.blogspot.fr/search/label/A%20Devil%20in%20Jersey)' "Lovecraftian FWI" campaign advertised on the Gothic Horror board (http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=44528.0) here? Too bad forums don't allow cross-posting, some regulars of the 'Pikes, Muskets and Flouncy Shirts' could be intrigued.
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Too much thing to do to continue for the moment, alas :'(
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The original, quite distinctive Minifigs Aureola Rococo (http://www.solegends.com/minifigs/mfar.htm) 'Knights of the Silver Rose' (already of quite 'heroic' size)
(http://i.ebayimg.com/t/Minifigs-Aureola-Rococo-ARK-7-Knight-Halberd-b-/00/%24(KGrHqV,!l8E3Rchi-gdBOI3Z8M%2B(!~~_35.JPG)
(also available mounted: left)
(http://www.solegends.com/minifigs/mfarrosecav.jpg)
would set a Young Kingdom army apart from mainstream 'quasi-medieval' Fantasy. I read that some parts of the AR range are re-issued?
Yes, here:
http://www.miniaturefigurines.co.uk/Catalogue.aspx?ScaleID=3&CategoryID=35
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I love those Rodney Matthews illustrations and still have Posters of his Elric related work. :-* :-*
The Aureola Rococo range Elves are derived from Matthews' depictions of the People of the Pines from the Corum novels while others such as the Executioner are based on Frank Frazetta's work.
These are old school figures, lacking the definition of later scults, but if you have the patience they can be very rewarding to do. I'd certainly consider giving them a punt and Hats off to Caliver for reissuing these...thanks guys for a blast from the past! ;)
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Not to be pedantic, just a burst of nostalgia, but the Minifigs AR Elvin Dragon Masters (http://www.solegends.com/minifigs/mfardragons.htm) were copied straight from a Rodney Matthews painting of Elric riding the oldest dragon (can't remember its name at the moment) in the Flamebringers.
The Aureola Rococo minis are indeed 'Old School' sculpts, but the photos don't do them justice. The human males are closer to 'modern' 28mm size than those in previous Minifigs ranges, such as Valley of the Four Winds (those brittle wings on the helmets! Still hating them with a passion).
Don't know in the present case, but I don't trust comics too much: the depiction of warriors in the Conan ones were ridiculously at odds with the original texts (re. 'The Black Colossus', specially). Then, Wendy Pini (of Elfquest fame) published her drawings for an aborted project of an animated Elric film "Law and Chaos: The "Stormbringer" Animated Film Project", it could be interesting?
For the Orders of Granbretan several manufacturers offer sets of [NOT Jaffa™?] SF helmets with animal masks (no boars so far I fear, unfortunately; neither cranes to convert ladies, one would have to sacrifice and behead Tethru from Crocodile Games Gods of Aegyptus); the small high-tech details would not be too embarrassing, given the 'weird science' of the Runestaff world. Sorry, no names or links, 'alternate 40k' is not my cup of tea, just saw them on the web.
Btw, how would you depict a firelance? The historical Chinese pattern is far too primitive for a civilization with ornithopters. A knightly lance / flamethrower combination, or something even more 'sophisticated', with the (diamond) spearhead inside the blowtorch 'mouth'?
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I've been repurchasing my old melnibonean/eternal champions from citadel as well. I'm going to use them with my Epic Heroes fantasy rules for Brink of Battle.
I think I'm finally settled on my color schemes, so brush might hit model soon.
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Brilliant work! But I think some buildings from Stronghold Terrain are missing. ;)
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Not dead which eternal lie.....
Thanks to the advice of all who submitted in this topic, I have started my Young Kingdoms project last september. My idea is to build the armies involved in the battle of Sequaloris (Pan Tang and Dharijor vs Jarkhor, Tarkesh, Shazaar, Melnibonean mercenaries and Myrrhin wigned men allies)
I plan to use Dragon Rampant as a ruleset ant the units have been built for this rule.
Let's start with a unit of Pan-Tangian infantrymen (old Citadel miniatures)
(http://pimg.imagesia.com/fichiers/1cd/pt1_imagesia-com_1cd0q_large.jpg) (http://imagesia.com/pt1_1cd0q)
(http://pimg.imagesia.com/fichiers/1cd/pt2_imagesia-com_1cd0n_large.jpg) (http://imagesia.com/pt2_1cd0n)
(http://pimg.imagesia.com/fichiers/1cd/pt3_imagesia-com_1cd0p_large.jpg) (http://imagesia.com/pt3_1cd0p)
(http://pimg.imagesia.com/fichiers/1cd/pt4_imagesia-com_1cd0o_large.jpg) (http://imagesia.com/pt4_1cd0o)
(http://pimg.imagesia.com/fichiers/1cd/pt5_imagesia-com_1cd0s_large.jpg) (http://imagesia.com/pt5_1cd0s)
(http://pimg.imagesia.com/fichiers/1cd/pt6_imagesia-com_1cd0t_large.jpg) (http://imagesia.com/pt6_1cd0t)
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Very nice, some classic figures there very well presented.
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They look great.
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Thank you. Glad you like them :)