Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => Fantasy Adventures => Topic started by: Dilettante Gamer on February 09, 2016, 08:26:22 PM
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Fellow Adventurers and ASoFaI Enthusiasts!
Based your the feedback, here are revised thoughts on how to make this work with clarity and sustainability. My thinking tends to be more lateral than sequential - so I invite other perspectives and preferences!
Please review the design thinking and respond with your support on a scale of 5 to 1 in this thread below.
"5" = "fully support"
"4" = "support with minor reservations"
"3" = "needs more discussion/input"
"2" = "don't support, but wont' oppose"
"1" = "oppose"
For anything "3" or lower, please specify what is needed to move your support closer to "5"
STRUCTURE
We will gather GoT/ASoIaF discussions under one stickied thread - not a child board, for now.
The first post will be reserved as a compendium of links to individual topic threads with the following sections in the body of the post:
Roll Call / Fellow Travelers I invite your thoughts here - "League of ASoFaI Enthusiasts"?
* Hyperlinks to each LAF Adventurer's GoT related thread in an alphabetical list.
* Subsection for other projects from around the interwebz not otherwise in this forum (Here or as a final category below as being outside LAF?)
Westerosi Heraldry References
* Visual references / citations from GRRM/authorized descriptions of house sigils
* Organized by "Seven Kingdom" houses, with sworn bannermen underneath each (Any objections to using my copy of "The World of Ice and Fire" as
a primary reference? I could scan and "snip" images from art there. It does have GRRM's imprimatur.)
Kitbashing Households & Bannermen - Design references & Ideas (Redundant with personal project threads??)
Westerosi Scenery
Gaming in Westeros - Rules & Scenarios
PROCESS
I have volunteered build and curate this first post with supporting recommendations/call outs to me from the community via PM so as to not clutter the thread. I'm guessing the Moderator has the magical powers to edit my first post if I get abducted by space aliens. (However, I do relish the opportunity to curate this body of work for the foreseeable future.)
After that, Adventurers can choose to post in this thread or trust their updated threads in this or other forums will be found via the compendum of links in the first post of this stickied thread.
BEFORE I START BUILDING THIS OUT - WHAT ELSE AM I MISSING IN THE DESCRIPTION ABOVE??
In service,
DG
Non nobis solum
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It's a 5 from me!
So are you suggesting each of the categories above would be a separate post made by you at the top of the thread, to be regularly updated? If we have something we want to be listed in the posts, we contact you to add it? If so, sounds like a good plan to me! :)
How about for each person, links to the relevant LAF threads followed by links to any outside blogs and such, even if they contain much the same material. Give us a sentence or two to sum up the project if we want, model ranges used, houses featured, etc...
For the heraldry, how abut multiple interpretations being listed? The 'official' ones from the World Of Ice And Fire Book, plus the 'official' TV show ones, many of which are very different, plus any other interpretations. Would you link to images, or have the images themselves in the post? That could quickly build up....
The 'kitbashing' list might well be redundant with the personal logs.
The 'scenery' post might not be that well populated, but I'd argue it's still worth having. Generic medieval scenery should be featured as well I think.
With the top posts having these lists, would the rest of the thread be a general discussion of all things Westeros? Sounds like a plan to me.
As for names, how does "Wargaming In Westeros" sound? "League Of Westeros Wargamers"?
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Secretly I'm a bit proud I started the thinking about indexing the Westeros stuff. :D ;D
I think Charlie's options for the name are good, as Westeros is a "neutral" name, while ASOIAF is mostly associated with the books and GOT with the show. By Westeros we cover both.
For me its a 5* too, although I'd like to add the suggestion of also adding photos of our own interpretation of the heraldry in the reference thread. So if you'd look at for example the Boltons, there would be the World of ice and fire version, the show version but also Captain Blood's amazing piece of art.
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I'm broadly a 5 - although it does sound a bit complicated!
- Westeros is perhaps too narrow a title... (What about Essos with all those Braavosi, Dothraki and Unsullied?!)
- I'd be inclined to keep it simple and just call it 'The LAF Game of Thrones topics index' or something self-explanatory like that.
- Then just link out to all relevant threads, be they primarily gaming, painting, kitbashing, terrain, pontification or whatever...
- Can't quite get my head around how the heraldry section would work... Maybe that should just be a thread on its own which people can add to? (Linked out to from the sticky index thread of course... )
- I'd put any other non-LAF links in a separate listing from the index of LAF threads.
I suppose all of which minor reservations make me a 4 :D
Thanks for taking this on Wade.
Valar Morghulis.
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Charlie - Thank you for modelling the way to respond. (pun intended)
It's a 5 from me!
So are you suggesting each of the categories above would be a separate post made by you at the top of the thread, to be regularly updated? If we have something we want to be listed in the posts, we contact you to add it? If so, sounds like a good plan to me! :)
Spot on. One compendium post with sectioned lists on the top of the thread. (Seemed to work well on Warseer with rumor summaries/images.)
How about for each person, links to the relevant LAF threads followed by links to any outside blogs and such, even if they contain much the same material. Give us a sentence or two to sum up the project if we want, model ranges used, houses featured, etc...
Acknowleding your refinments of a) adding link to LAFer's blogs in addition to their thread and b) Asking for a descriptive sentence or two in their own words. Thank you!
For the heraldry, how abut multiple interpretations being listed? The 'official' ones from the World Of Ice And Fire Book, plus the 'official' TV show ones, many of which are very different, plus any other interpretations. Would you link to images, or have the images themselves in the post? That could quickly build up....
The 'kitbashing' list might well be redundant with the personal logs.
I'm not sold on this but the intent is to highlight model lines/figures to match houses and personalities.
The 'scenery' post might not be that well populated, but I'd argue it's still worth having. Generic medieval scenery should be featured as well I think.
Maybe it's just me, but there are a few cool things out there - Sukhe_Bator's Sept of the Seven and his Weirwood tree come to mind first. AND, I wouldn't mind a list of good building/scenery reviews.
As for names, how does "Wargaming In Westeros" sound? "League Of Westeros Wargamers"?
I prefer those to my idea-starters...
Thanks for being the first to weigh in and now let's see how others respond!
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I am a 5 :-* :D :)
FFF
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I'm broadly a 5 - although it does sound a bit complicated!
I suppose all of which minor reservations make me a 4 :D
Thanks for taking this on Wade.
Valar Morghulis.
Adaptive thinking: Agree with streamlining, keeping simple, starting with index of LAFer threads. Agree is heraldry is problematic. Ideally it should be embedded images in the first page of it's own thread with that thread linked in the Compendium sticky.
We'll give it another day for others to opine and I'll post v1.0. I'll start gathering linky-dinks in a Word doc saved off line so I can more quicky cut and past into the forum prototype.
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I suppose I am a 4, not because of any major issues with what folks want to do but simply because I'm one of those cats that instinctively tries to shake off any attempt at being herded. :D
I think it's great that effort is being put in to draw together links to the various threads across a number of boards, so well done - especially to Wade - for the effort being and to be made. 8)
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I would be a 5 too.
Just tell us how we can help to bring it all together
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I'm a 5 too :D :-*
I agree with the good Cpn that we should perhaps not exclude the wider world of GRRM by referring to it simply as 'Westeros'
I'm a bit of an old fogie when it comes to all this interweb stuff. I have enough trouble posting photos, so I share Cp'n Blood's thoughts that it sounds a little complicated. I'm sure it will shake down well enough though. Just let me know how I can help ...
Well done Wade for agreeing to take this on!
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"Wargaming in Westeros and beyond"?
"Wargaming in the Seven Kingdoms and beyond"?
"Wargaming in a world of ice and fire"?
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I think you missed Charlies tread in the other thread ;)
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I think you missed Charlies tread in the other thread ;)
Thank you!!!
He notified me! :'(
FIXED!
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5 for me too!
Lovely idea. :-*
I have to change the horrible title of my GoT thread though ::)
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I have to change the horrible title of my GoT thread though ::)
Seeing them all together in a list, I suspect you're not the only one coming to that realization. lol
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I'm a solid 5. I have a few thoughts re: the additional components being discussed, beyond the simple (hah! right...) indexing of people's various existing GoT plogs.
Heraldry: I'm not opposed to this; there are quite a few external resources for this, though as was discussed in sukhe_bator's thread, these can be a bit goofy and unreliable at times.
As for the kitbashing/miniatures guide and scenarios/rules, I'm a 6 out of 5. That seems right there with the thread compilation in terms of being directly relevant to the hobby.
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NEEDED INPUT FROM THE COMMUNITY HIVE MIND
In our Compendium thread you'll see a placeholder post for Westerosi heraldry, per the earlier discussion. When I started to frame it out last night, I began to realize it could be a high effort/low return quagmire.
Which led me back to the question: "What does the community need, what would aid or inspire their hobby efforts?"
My first draft answer is, "Visual or textual references to house heraldry superior to those easily found on:
> "The Citadel" here:http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/Heraldry/ (http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/Heraldry/)
> awoiaf.westeros here: http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Category:Coat_of_arms_images (http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Category:Coat_of_arms_images)
Charlie_ has already shared some thoughts via PM. (Thank you, Charles) I invite your recommendations in the posts below
All views welcome!
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As my heraldry is as per the TV series, l'm just lifting screenshots :D
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Well, as already intimated, I think some of the Citadel and AWOIAF entries on sigils are suspect in the extreme. So a topic which prioritises what we know about GoT heraldry based on what is actually set out by GRRM in his books (rather than what other people have invented in the privacy of thier own imaginations) would be a useful and welcome resource :)
Maybe illustrated with LAFers own painted / printed interpretations of those liveries / sigils on miniatures? (Which would at least give it a bit of LAF 'value-add' :)
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I completely agree with the Captain!
And I'd be willingly to help when and wherever needed of course!
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Maybe illustrated with LAFers own painted / printed interpretations of those liveries / sigils on miniatures? (Which would at least give it a bit of LAF 'value-add' :)
This resonates for me for the reason given.
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I would suggest that everybody who is reading the books at the moment takes nots of the sigil and posts them on LAF.
So whoever wants to paint one up could do so and post his efforts here as well.
I have read all the books myself but it would be difficult and very time consuming to reread them all to find the description of the sigils.
So collecting quotes here might be a first step in working on the heraldry. What do you think?
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I'm already on it tomrommel1 ;D
I agree that a primarily book-driven heraldry reference is probably the way forward.
For those of us GoTers using the TV series as a creative springboard (and be honest chaps our figure selection is by and large dictated by the visual impact of the series to at least some degree), having the original refs will give insight on how the TV series have interpreted the text. I've found that approach quite informative when I've perused the 'Art of' and conceptual design books behind the LoTR and Hobbit films.
I am doing precisely what tomrommel1 has suggested - skimming thru the books looking at all the heraldry and banner refs. The ASOIAF Wiki cites the Book and character chapter number in the notes (not altogether that helpful since you've got to keep count of each character's totals on the way). It does not quote the page refs. I have found that by and large the citations in the ASOIAF Wiki are basically correct, but its the interpretation of the heraldry refs that Cpn Blood and I both appear to take issue with.
I'm using the Harper Voyager p/b eds by Harper Collins 2012.
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=game+of+thrones+harper+voyager&espv=2&biw=2240&bih=1202&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi3iL6I5fHKAhUJQhQKHUGsAyUQsAQIIQ&dpr=0.75#imgrc=oA5pavsZF1IkLM%3A
a.t.m. I've compiled info from Game of Thrones (GOT), Clash of Kings (COK), Storm of Swords Pt1 (SOS:1), Pt2 (SOS:2), and A feast of Crows (AFOC).
I have been quoting the page refs for these in previous posts. I'm happy to re-post what I have so far in some order/format agreeable to everyone...
Any minor/more unusual ASOIAF Wiki refs I've been interested that I've missed I've been chasing up separately.
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Yes please, post your references sukhe_bator! would be much appreciated .
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Speaking of heraldry, this is what I was planning on basing my initial Direwolf Rampant armies on: http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/War_Across_the_Water (http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/War_Across_the_Water)
So I should be able to add a few less common Northern and Vale examples to the mix... ;)
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Nice one Hupp n at em!
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Speaking of heraldry, this is what I was planning on basing my initial Direwolf Rampant armies on: http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/War_Across_the_Water (http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/War_Across_the_Water)
So I should be able to add a few less common Northern and Vale examples to the mix... ;)
That's a great idea!
Wow, I didn't realise that war apparently went on for 1,000 years.
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That's a great idea!
Wow, I didn't realise that war apparently went on for 1,000 years.
Yeah, it's pretty nuts. I have no plans to model them differently because of the time difference, still going to be a mix of Fireforge/Perry plastics, with some Perry, Claymore Castings, and Crusader metals. Claymore has not made a figure I don't drool over, and the Crusader late crusaders in gambesons just speak to me. I must have them. :-* lol
I'm thinking that the Northern forces will comprise the following houses:
Stark
Bolton
Cerwyn
Locke
Hornwood
Flint of Widow's Watch
Slate
Umber
Karstark
Besides the two Sistermen houses whose heraldry is described (Sunderland and Borrel), the opposing Valemen will comprise:
Arryn
Rhoyce
Pryor
Belmore
Hersy
Elesham
Hunter
Egen
Lynderly
Melcolm
Grafton
etc...
Just a rough list, I tried to justify it by location (mostly Eastern/Southeastern Houses for the North, mostly Northern/Eastern/coastal houses for the Arryns, and include some of those listed as "principle" vassals for each). I know The Vale is the "stronghold of chivalry" but good god, some of those houses above have horribly ugly heraldry. :o Starting to think maybe I should go for style over logic here... lol
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I like how that war could potentially portray the North as the villains. Or not, depending on who's side you see it from. Of course there are no good guys and bad guys.
Though this guy definitely seems pretty bad....
" Belthasar Bolton made a "Pink Pavilion" out of the flayed skins of a hundred Sistermen"
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Wow, I didn't realise that war apparently went on for 1,000 years.
This is where you have to remember that GRRM, despite his meticulous 'world-building' and generally quite realistic approach, is a fantasy author...
The idea that a war which took place 2,000 years before the events of ASOIAF (according to the AWOIAF entry), was prosecuted by the Arryns of the Vale, and that they were a dominant house then and still a dominant house 2,000 years later, is obviously bananas in human historical terms...
I don't think there's a single royal house or noble dynasty in the history of the world anywhere that's lasted for more than two or three hundred years at most.
The notion that the same ruling family has managed to remain reproductively intact, never mind militarily and politically dominant, for 2,000 years... And that the broadly medieval setting of that world has remained largely unchanged across such an enormous timespan... Well, it reminds us that this is just a fairy story after all :)
But I digress. Back on topic... Wade, it's looking good... Thank you for your efforts to pull this together. Are you nearing readiness to publish and be damned? 8)
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This is where you have to remember that GRRM, despite his meticulous 'world-building' and generally quite realistic approach, is a fantasy author...
The idea that a war which took place 2,000 years before the events of ASOIAF (according to the AWOIAF entry), was prosecuted by the Arryns of the Vale, and that they were a dominant house then and still a dominant house 2,000 years later, is obviously bananas in human historical terms...
I don't think there's a single royal house or noble dynasty in the history of the world anywhere that's lasted for more than two or three hundred years at most.
The notion that the same ruling family has managed to remain reproductively intact, never mind militarily and politically dominant, for 2,000 years... And that the broadly medieval setting of that world has remained largely unchanged across such an enormous timespan... Well, it reminds us that this is just a fairy story after all :)
That's very true, and I kind of wish he didn't have such huge timespans in places! What I REALLY like is how the whole history of the Targaryen dynasty on Westeros just goes back under 300 years. Seems very plausible. But anything before that, and suddenly we are talking about ridiculous spans of time.
And the Arryns are an Andal house, not among the first people to set foot on Westeros! The Starks and other 'old god' houses are descended from the First Men, and their lines go back even further!
The way I like to see it is all as myth.... Perhaps there wasn't much good or precise record-keeping 'back in the day'. Perhaps this War Across The Water actually happened 500 years ago, and went on for 50 years. But with lack of decent record keeping it has developed over the generations into something of a legend.
Well, that's what I'm telling myself!
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That's very true, and I kind of wish he didn't have such huge timespans in places! What I REALLY like is how the whole history of the Targaryen dynasty on Westeros just goes back under 300 years. Seems very plausible. But anything before that, and suddenly we are talking about ridiculous spans of time.
And the Arryns are an Andal house, not among the first people to set foot on Westeros! The Starks and other 'old god' houses are descended from the First Men, and their line goes back even further!
The way I like to see it is all as myth.... Perhaps there wasn't much good or precise record-keeping 'back in the day'. Perhaps this War Across The Water actually happened 500 years ago, and went on for 50 years. But with lack of decent record keeping it has developed over the generations into something of a legend.
Well, that's what I'm telling myself!
While I'd guess there is some generous "rounding" going on, in a world where winter can go on for quite a few "earth years", and the fan "best-guess" estimates on the distances involved in Westeros point towards it being a fairly large place. Keeping those things in mind, it's not inconceivable to imagine it was a "Hundred Years War" type of territorial pissing match, which was not continuously prosecuted; rather, The Three Sisters was fought over when finances, manpower and weather/season allowed. Albeit over a much longer time period. And it does say in the end the Starks simply lost interest... lol
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God damnit, I keep pressing quote when instead of modify by mistake!!!