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Miniatures Adventure => Colonial Adventures => Topic started by: traveller on April 29, 2016, 03:37:01 PM

Title: French zouaves ca 1885 for the Tonkin expedition?
Post by: traveller on April 29, 2016, 03:37:01 PM
Seems hard to find these in 28mm. Any recommendations (except Askari miniatures)?
Could maybe Artizan Algerian Tirailleurs be used as a proxy? Or could it be possible to convert the rifles of ACW zouaves to the Graz 1874 rifle?

Grateful for any comments!
Title: Re: French zouaves ca 1885 for the Tonkin expedition?
Post by: Arthur on April 29, 2016, 06:11:59 PM
I would go with the Artizan figures as they are wearing the white bourgeron smock rather than the traditional zouave jacket (I know many people mistakenly paint these light blue on their Artizan tirailleurs but if you take a close look at the figures you'll see that Mike Owen really did his homework on his turcos and sculpted them in the correct campaign gear). You will also need to do headswaps as the fez seems to have been quickly replaced by sun helmets, which better suited the South East Asian climate. Here's a contemporary picture by Dr Hocquard of tirailleurs algériens near Phu Doan in 1884 :   

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/e5/Tonkin_Turcos.jpg)

The zouaves they were brigaded with probably wouldn't have looked very different, with their officers resembling this worthy:

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/5/53/Tonkin_Zouave_officer.png/443px-Tonkin_Zouave_officer.png) 

Another Hocquard photograph shows French troops near Lang Son, the men being either zouaves or turcos. The rank and file are wearing the campaign uniform of white bourgeron and zouave seroual with dark sun helmets.

(http://hinhxua.free.fr/autrefois/docteur-hocquard/page3/halte_francaise_a_LangSon.jpg)

Both the turcos and the zouaves appear to have worn their Turkish jackets only intermittently, the lighter and looser bourgeron being the preferred campaign garment in the hot and humid Vietnamese climate. Beware of period pics like the one below, which were made by metropolitan artists who invariably depicted French troops in the splendour of their full dress uniforms for propaganda purposes :

(http://a403.idata.over-blog.com/2/30/34/50/Culture/gravure-guerre-franco-chinoise.jpg)     
Title: Re: French zouaves ca 1885 for the Tonkin expedition?
Post by: italwars on April 29, 2016, 06:57:39 PM
Interesting period Traveller
what will you use for their opponents ....Annamites and Black Flags?
maybe Boxers..
years ago i received samples from the now defunct "London War Room" range for this periods (Coinchine-Vietnam)..they made very useful types..including Tirailleurs Annamites in French service..it would be fantastic if somebody revamped this range
Title: Re: French zouaves ca 1885 for the Tonkin expedition?
Post by: traveller on April 29, 2016, 07:06:05 PM
Thanks both for your input!

Great that the Algerian Tirailleurs can be used! Quite a surprise though that the Zouaves did not use the turban even if it makes sense. I think I will add a few Annamites as well:

http://www.miniaturefigurines.co.uk/images/catalogue/FFM%2010.jpg

Black flags should be the opponents. I plan to use a mix of Foundry Chinese and Boxers
Title: Re: French zouaves ca 1885 for the Tonkin expedition?
Post by: Arthur on April 29, 2016, 08:36:54 PM
Yes, there is no dedicated range for the Tonkin expedition at the moment.

Around four years ago, Mike Owen PM'd me here to ask for information on French uniforms for the Tonkin war and I e-mailed him quite a bit of stuff that I have on the subject, but nothing came of it and the Artizan French colonial range (a.k.a 'March or Die') ran out of steam and stalled - it is still largely incomplete and doesn't look like it will be added to in the foreseeable future.

Back to the Tonkin campaign, are you familiar with the full set of Hocquard photographs taken in Tonkin in 1884 and 1885 ? This is seminal stuff both for documentation and inspiration.   

http://hinhxua.free.fr/autrefois/docteur-hocquard/page1/photo_docteur_hocquard_1_fr.htm (http://hinhxua.free.fr/autrefois/docteur-hocquard/page1/photo_docteur_hocquard_1_fr.htm)

Title: Re: French zouaves ca 1885 for the Tonkin expedition?
Post by: traveller on April 30, 2016, 07:40:58 AM
Wow! That link was a real treasure chest. Thanks!
Title: Re: French zouaves ca 1885 for the Tonkin expedition?
Post by: malto cortese on April 30, 2016, 08:44:48 AM
Seems hard to find these in 28mm. Any recommendations (except Askari miniatures)?
Could maybe Artizan Algerian Tirailleurs be used as a proxy? Or could it be possible to convert the rifles of ACW zouaves to the Graz 1874 rifle?

Grateful for any comments!

Have you given a look at the Dixon range for the Dahomey wars? They have some Foreign legion types which may be used in Indochina too, perhaps:   http://www.dixon-minis.com/shop/dahomey-wars-1892-28mm/#pack-french-foreign-legion-4-pack (http://www.dixon-minis.com/shop/dahomey-wars-1892-28mm/#pack-french-foreign-legion-4-pack)
Title: Re: French zouaves ca 1885 for the Tonkin expedition?
Post by: traveller on April 30, 2016, 09:38:39 AM
Have you given a look at the Dixon range for the Dahomey wars? They have some Foreign legion types which may be used in Indochina too, perhaps:   http://www.dixon-minis.com/shop/dahomey-wars-1892-28mm/#pack-french-foreign-legion-4-pack (http://www.dixon-minis.com/shop/dahomey-wars-1892-28mm/#pack-french-foreign-legion-4-pack)

Thanks Malto,

I have both the Artizan, OG and Dixon for the FFL. It is the Zouaves that seems to be a challenge. However, Arthurs insights solves the problem! While there are abundance of ACW zouaves, the lack of 28mm late 19th/Early 20th century zouaves is still a general problem...
Title: Re: French zouaves ca 1885 for the Tonkin expedition?
Post by: joroas on April 30, 2016, 11:58:57 AM
I am using my Foundry FPW troops as proxy Zouaves.
Title: Re: French zouaves ca 1885 for the Tonkin expedition?
Post by: italwars on May 01, 2016, 11:07:20 PM
traveller...a good miniature army to set up the French Colonial one..but why limiting yoursel with the most realistic but non-iconic Zouaves or Turcos deprived of their characterisc and flamboyant uniform and choose a version (bourgeron, shirt, casque) which will limit themselves to that particulat teather...after all one of the amusements of our hobby is to use nice minis with famous uniforms..(which also historically serve to impress the naive natives opponents)...also take into account that Indochine is visually associated more with Infanterie de Marine and Légion..plus sailors and few Annamites Tirailleurs..than with  Zouaves ..if i was you i would choose, if you really want those zouaves, the classical Zouaves from Askari of Foundry and allow you to use them  also in North Africa scenarios ecc...
a last consideration.maybe i could be wrong but ...except earlier European and Mexican Campaigns the later Zouaves did'nt see much real fighting outremer at least untill WW1...simply because being conscript white citizens/ colons from Algeria/Maroc/Tunisia they were less willing, less fit and less expendable than the professional scum of Bat d'Af, Troupes de Marine and Légion..or the native troops ..in that way they could be considered more as garison than shock troops....that's my impression but maybe our French members expert of the period can tell us more
Title: Re: French zouaves ca 1885 for the Tonkin expedition?
Post by: Arthur on May 02, 2016, 02:03:02 AM
in that way they could be considered more as garison than shock troops....

They definitely weren't garrison troops. Just like the turcos/tirailleurs algériens, the zouaves were primarily meant to be stationed in North Africa and thus were not frequently deployed overseas between 1870 and 1914. The Tonkin expedition excepted, the native tirailleurs algériens didn't serve much outside of the Maghrib either - two bataillons de marche were involved in the Madagascar campaign of 1896 but that was about it.  

But the zouaves saw continuous action throughout the 1890's and 1900's in Algeria and Tunisia, where they were heavily involved in 'peace-keeping' operations of varying magnitude and intensity - meaning they helped maintain the French colonial order. Eight zouave battalions took part in the Morocco campaigns of 1907-1912 and outside of North Africa the French expeditionary corps sent to China in 1901 included a four battalion zouave régiment de marche. I don't think anyone would have challenged their status as shock troops at the time.

Incidentally, for operations in North Africa between 1880 and 1914, both the zouaves and the turcos tended to use the white summer fatigue uniform I described above rather than their more colourful full dress garb. Meaning that they often looked pretty much like this :

(http://image.jimcdn.com/app/cms/image/transf/dimension=230x10000:format=jpg/path/sc8cc5f0a09b291dc/image/i9147f1d31731efdc/version/1405333244/image.jpg)
(http://www.musee-infanterie.com/images/upload/fiches/f372da3dfac349323c594baf06ed87a7.jpg)

Title: Re: French zouaves ca 1885 for the Tonkin expedition?
Post by: italwars on May 05, 2016, 10:11:17 PM
Back to the Tonkin campaign, are you familiar with the full set of Hocquard photographs taken in Tonkin in 1884 and 1885 ? This is seminal stuff both for documentation and inspiration.   

http://hinhxua.free.fr/autrefois/docteur-hocquard/page1/photo_docteur_hocquard_1_fr.htm (http://hinhxua.free.fr/autrefois/docteur-hocquard/page1/photo_docteur_hocquard_1_fr.htm)

Arthur merci beaucoup pur cette info...
marvelous source that i did'nt know...
my only good sources..if not pictorial..at least to vget ideas for wargames of my favourite period which happen to be exactly the French Colonial..is the reprinted books official histories and officers memoirs published by Ediation Lavauzelle...trés chers mais trés precieux
bonne nuit
Title: Re: French zouaves ca 1885 for the Tonkin expedition?
Post by: JBaumal on June 15, 2017, 04:27:37 PM
Hi Arthur,
I'm planning a Tonkin project and have just read this thread. Very interesting and informative! I was hoping you would share some of your research? Could you point me in the right direction for painting guides and figures, especially for the Black Flags and Chinese??? I've found enough French data to get started on those. But would also appreciate any assistance there as well.

Thank you for any help you may be able to provide.

I've got some outstanding gunboats in 25/28mm looking for a campaign!

Cheers,
JB
http://sgtguinness.blogspot.com
Title: Re: French zouaves ca 1885 for the Tonkin expedition?
Post by: italwars on June 16, 2017, 10:49:36 AM
Jbaumal.  We share the same wargame dream ..to game in 28mm this conflict
After years of research i Can conclude that the only annamites pavillons noirs minis expressily designed for this colonial Theatre had been produced from 2 very elusive ranges:
Falcon / matchlock miniatures
http://plasticpelisse.blogspot.it/2012/10/matchlock-25mm-vs-esci-172-colonial-foot.html
And, above all, a full very nice and detailed range from the defunct The London War Room of which i have a couple of nice samples ,, they had a very comprensive list with both chineese, pavillons noirs, annamites and tonkinese French ausiliarie,,,maybe as you live in USA you Can try to tackle who have still the moulds or some stocks
Title: Re: French zouaves ca 1885 for the Tonkin expedition?
Post by: ecwcaptain on June 16, 2017, 02:29:26 PM
This is one of my back-burner colonial periods that I've always wanted to game. It went on the back-burner when one of my fellow Colonial Boys Club friends (Mark Hayes) died, as he was very interested in it as well. Instead, I turned to French West Africa (against Semori Toure) and US in Philippines (Insurrection and Moros), to finish them up first.

With regard to figures, I have painted Old Glory French Marines in dark blue coat, khaki helmet, white pants, to reflect one photo I saw in Tonkin (these were started by Mark Hayes, so I picked them up and finished them). I too use the Foundry Turcos from the Franco-Prussian line for North Africa, as they fit nicely.

With regard to the Black Flags, while they might appear a bit different, for now, I would go with Boxer Chinese. If you can find info on their flags, then must add in some leaders and standard bearers painted 100% Black Flag, carrying the right flags (else use Boxer flags).

At least the above allows one to start to game the theater, once you pull together the wargame scenarios, that is. :-)

Bob
Title: Re: French zouaves ca 1885 for the Tonkin expedition?
Post by: italwars on June 16, 2017, 03:59:12 PM
ECWCap
interesting!!!....i also have minis and scenarios plus quite a few good sources for the 2 sideshow colonial theatres that you mentioned...above all French in West African for which my Senegalese Tirailleurs and mixed West African/Dervishes as proxies are are ready
if you can read French i strongly suggest you as ispiration for almost ready made scenarios and some good maps:

http://www.lavauzelle.com/keops/edition/articles.php?f=HIT&sSF=002&a=ED&sSA=
Title: Re: French zouaves ca 1885 for the Tonkin expedition?
Post by: JBaumal on June 16, 2017, 07:18:23 PM
I see we have some of the same interests.

I planned on using OG Boxers for my Black Flags. Can I use the Chinese regulars with head and hat conversions?

How should they be painted? What I've found is mostly all black, some dark blue or brown and some white shirts. Correct? How about the head gear? I've mostly coolie hats. How should I paint the OG Boxer and Chinese headgear?

Got any books or online sources for the painting guides?

I wish I'd of bought Vince's London Warroom figs when I'd had the chance....

Cheers,
JB
Title: Re: French zouaves ca 1885 for the Tonkin expedition?
Post by: italwars on June 16, 2017, 09:11:43 PM
For now just a quick google images..next days I ll borrow my sources
The definitive work on the subject of uniforms and flags is, in any case,the Foundry book on the subject
https://www.google.it/search?q=pavillons+noirs&client=safari&hl=it&prmd=sinv&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi0oPyqosPUAhVGMZoKHfeaCxIQ_AUICigC&biw=320&bih=460
Title: Re: French zouaves ca 1885 for the Tonkin expedition?
Post by: JBaumal on June 17, 2017, 01:54:53 AM
Italwars, once again you've come through with some awesome data. Thank you!
From what I see they weren't dressed in just dark colors.

I look forward to what else you come up with.

Cheers,
JB
Title: Re: French zouaves ca 1885 for the Tonkin expedition?
Post by: S J Donovan on June 17, 2017, 11:34:40 PM
A couple of suggestions for guides beyond the Foundry book. 
Go to www.savageandsoldier.com (http://www.savageandsoldier.com) and look at the list of articles, quite a bit for Tonkin and under China is one for the Black Flags, you could then contact Bob Burke and get copies of the old mag.  I don't think we published any under The Heliograph but you could also ask Bob.
The Foundry book lists two costume/uniform articles (in French) that might be worthwhile.  A good university library should be able to get copies.
George Nafzinger www.nafzigercollection.com (http://www.nafzigercollection.com) has a  title of some interest in the period A Little War The French Campaign against the Black Flag pirates in the Upper Tonkin, 1896.  Ten years later but contains topo maps, tactics and OBs for battles with the Black Flag very good info.
Richard Brooks
Title: Re: French zouaves ca 1885 for the Tonkin expedition?
Post by: Arthur on June 19, 2017, 10:51:03 AM
Chiming in a bit late, but I'll echo what others said about the Foundry book, which is probably the most comprehensive English-language source on Vietnamese  troops. It's still in print and available from Foundry :

http://www.wargamesfoundry.com/index.php/books/military-history-books/armies-19th-century-burma-and-indo-china/ (http://www.wargamesfoundry.com/index.php/books/military-history-books/armies-19th-century-burma-and-indo-china/)
Title: Re: French zouaves ca 1885 for the Tonkin expedition?
Post by: italwars on June 19, 2017, 11:54:47 AM
i was'nt able to download, as i did in another topic of last year, also the full collection of plates of annamite Imperial Army that fought the French..but you can find some plates here...a lot of colour inspiration for our minis:

https://www.google.it/search?q=Army+of+Tu+Duc&rlz=1C1EODB_enIT584IT584&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjD1IDh68nUAhVGEVAKHbfiACMQsAQIKA&biw=1280&bih=845#tbm=isch&q=Armee+campagne++Tu+Duc&imgrc=etqW2dv11yXh0M:
Title: Re: French zouaves ca 1885 for the Tonkin expedition?
Post by: marco55 on August 01, 2018, 02:01:09 AM
I wonder if these can be used for the 1880's,equipment wise I mean. https://www.eaglesofempire.com/
Mark

Title: Re: French zouaves ca 1885 for the Tonkin expedition?
Post by: Shipka on August 01, 2018, 06:09:09 PM
If it is 28mm you are after then Gringos40 will I am sure will include them in their Tonkin range
Title: Re: French zouaves ca 1885 for the Tonkin expedition?
Post by: marco55 on August 01, 2018, 06:33:27 PM
Yeah I know that but you can always use more. lol These are 28mm.
Mark
Title: Re: French zouaves ca 1885 for the Tonkin expedition?
Post by: gringo on August 16, 2018, 11:28:03 AM
Gents

just to say I will be making Turcos  and Zouaves..as well as Spahai troops
in the 1885 uniforms  used in Tonkin  and probably the more common
light blue/dark blue fancy jackets...…….working on these at the moment
along with the book/s and rules/and Navy for both sides...all units will be covered in depth...along with the sundry equipment used. :D

cheers
Ged
www.gringo40s.com
Title: Re: French zouaves ca 1885 for the Tonkin expedition?
Post by: marco55 on August 16, 2018, 11:53:31 AM
This article, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tonkin_Expeditionary_Corps says that the first French commander of this force had his troops dressed in black. That's something that I hadn't heard before.
Mark
Title: Re: French zouaves ca 1885 for the Tonkin expedition?
Post by: gringo on August 16, 2018, 11:57:56 AM
Mark

local cotton cloth Mark...…..
dark brown black pajamas effectively
climatically spot on!

cheers
Ged
www.gringo40s.com
Title: Re: French zouaves ca 1885 for the Tonkin expedition?
Post by: marco55 on August 16, 2018, 12:17:14 PM
Yeah I just didn't know about them.
Mark
Title: Re: French zouaves ca 1885 for the Tonkin expedition?
Post by: traveller on August 16, 2018, 12:45:03 PM
Thanks for the recommendations! Look forward to see your stuff Ged!
Title: Re: French zouaves ca 1885 for the Tonkin expedition?
Post by: gringo on August 16, 2018, 12:48:50 PM
Traveller
thanks for the support! :D

cheers
Ged
www.gringo40s.com
Title: Re: French zouaves ca 1885 for the Tonkin expedition?
Post by: Arthur on August 16, 2018, 03:50:36 PM
Yeah I just didn't know about them.
Mark

The jacket was called a kéo and was used for a period of about two years, being introduced in 1883 and officially abolished in August 1885. Its replacement was the bourgeron, a loose smock used for fatigue duties by the zouaves and turcos and also doubling as hot weather campaign dress in North Africa. The kéo and its matching trousers were made of light linen (black silk for officers) and were a dirty shade of dark brown rather than black. They were worn during the hot season, the men switching back to woolen garments from mid-october to mid-april when the climate was cooler. The kéo and its trousers were quite comfortable but extremely ungainly, giving the men a sloppy and unkempt appearance that was deemed unsoldierly, hence their short-lived existence.     

Here's a famous pic of what the kéo looked like in the field :

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/8/8a/Tonkin_marsouins.jpg)
Title: Re: French zouaves ca 1885 for the Tonkin expedition?
Post by: gringo on August 17, 2018, 11:35:25 AM
As Arthur correctly says and in a far better reply then mine
the Keo  was received by both the Turcos and the Zouaves..
and after a few weeks in Tonkin the uniforms became basically
the same,might be worth a mention sky blue keos were also
issued to maintain the tradition. The main difference was the
Turcos were indigenes (mainky Algerian) and the Zouaves Frenchmenl
in the main. Also equipment rifle wise was different Zouaves used
kropatschek rifles and Turcos Gras rifles.
these two troops types were thrown in to many of the
battles first...…..due in part to their superb fighting ability!

I have already commissioned the Turcos some time ago and
requested they are wearing the bourgeron (white drill) and the
baggy trousers..accompanied by the colonial helmet as photographed
by the good Doctor and mentioned in many accounts. its mentioned
in some accounts the Zouaves held onto their dark blue and red piped
jackets,,with the red/white/yellow false pockets) for quite a while till
the unbearable humidity and heat forced a change to the bourgeron.
some of the officers changed their shirts three times a day! :o
I may well commission this uniform so the two regiments look a bit
different on the wargames table. on the other hand a head change
and you have two units correctly attired for the middle and late part
of the campaign, The Turcos had the 1st and 3rd regiments in Tonkin the Zouaves battalions from the 3 regiments if memory serves me right.
 Arthur whats your opinion on the Zouaves ?..would you do them in the aformentioned Blue fonce or the Bourgeron or both!! personally i may do both :D

 great thread

regards
Ged
www.gringo40s.com



Title: Re: French zouaves ca 1885 for the Tonkin expedition?
Post by: marco55 on August 17, 2018, 06:15:47 PM
It all sounds good Ged.
Mark
Title: Re: French zouaves ca 1885 for the Tonkin expedition?
Post by: gringo on August 17, 2018, 10:33:50 PM
thanks Mark..... ;)

cheers
Ged
www.gringo40s.com
Title: Re: French zouaves ca 1885 for the Tonkin expedition?
Post by: Shipka on September 21, 2018, 12:22:07 PM
Everyone's wish to game this period, can be explored through Gringos40