Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => Railway Wargaming => Topic started by: Silent Invader on August 28, 2016, 04:27:49 PM
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Anybody have any good info or sources on narrow gauge railways in Afghanistan? :)
There are some references to Decauville 600mm gauge track and there's this fantastic image here of components supposedly being moved through the Bolan Pass* deeper into Afghanistan:
(http://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/25/2031_28_08_16_5_26_05.jpeg)
*If I understand it correctly, at that time the Bolan Pass was in Afghanistan but is now in Pakistan
http://www.andrewgrantham.co.uk/afghanistan/railways/the-great-game/
http://www.andrewgrantham.co.uk/afghanistan/tag/narrow-gauge/
http://www.andrewgrantham.co.uk/afghanistan/elephants-carrying-locomotives-through-the-bolan-pass/
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decauville
Even if it veers from the historical to the maybe/fantasy I might add tiles with some Hornby track and trains to my Afghan boards. :D
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If I'm honest I'd read the title hoping you did.
But I have to say it's a wonderfully evocative image of the train on the back of an elephant.Its a while since I made any elephants but the ears look more African than Indian ( to me) which makes me wonder if the illustration isn't suffering from artistic license.
I'm not doubting the train was transported on the back of elephants.Just wondering if it wasn't a little less 'train' and a couple more Loads,when it comes to the engine.
But from a gaming point of view it's going to be a conversation piece as it stands.
I hope you do add the element of trains to your boards especially the elephants.As it's just a wonderful idea/ image.(one I'm tempted to make and figure out what to use it for later)
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I agree about the artistic license. It surely must have been drawn back in the UK from a description. lol
I'm sorely tempted to add a track and train. I already have a suitable Hornby engine as base model from a 28mm upscale conversion (Michi is a master of it) that I started a couple of years ago. I doubt I'll be doing elephants though, I just fancy a game of Afghan tribes raiding a train for plunder. ;)
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Not apropos to this thread, but it reminded me of an Afghan joke:
Man from Pakistan: Why do you Afghans have a Minister of Railways if you have no railways?
Man from Afghanistan: Why not? YOU have a Minister of Justice!
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I googled a bit for Decauville engines and found a very small 3ton type. I am not aware what the payload of an elephant actually is though...
(http://www.feldbahn-ffm.de/media/images/ffm_aktuelles_13-03.jpg)
(http://www.lasergang-shop.de/kreativmeile/sites/default/files/users/user8/GN15Skip/3tonDecauvilleGn15-2.jpg)
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Get cracking mate, enquiring minds need to see :D
cheers
James
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I googled a bit for Decauville engines and found a very small 3ton type. I am not aware what the payload of an elephant actually is though...
(http://www.feldbahn-ffm.de/media/images/ffm_aktuelles_13-03.jpg)
(http://www.lasergang-shop.de/kreativmeile/sites/default/files/users/user8/GN15Skip/3tonDecauvilleGn15-2.jpg)
It wouldn't have been transported whole. Probably several loads worth of subassemblies, chassis, boiler, cab and tanks & unlikely to be Elephant borne..
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It wouldn't have been transported whole. Probably several loads worth of subassemblies, chassis, boiler, cab and tanks & unlikely to be Elephant borne..
Then the drawing seems to be rather close to that: The left elephant obviously carries the chassis while the one on the right has the boiler with tanks and cab loaded on his back. The small 600mm gauge two-axled wagons shouldn´t have been a big burden to haul for an elephant however. The pre-assembled all-iron Decauville track pieces neither (see the man in the background on the left lifting one alone)...
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That's a great find Michi. 8)
I struggled with finding more on elephant payloads but did come up with this link which suggests (with Howdah plus humans) more than a ton (Though probably not ultimately in the elephant's best interests).
http://millenniumelephantfoundation.com/projects/howdah-not-to-do-it/ (http://millenniumelephantfoundation.com/projects/howdah-not-to-do-it/)
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And as soon as I post, I find out more!
Laying of the railway began in 1880 but was suspended after the Battle of Maiwand
http://wiki.fibis.org/index.php/Bolan_Pass_Railway_Construction (http://wiki.fibis.org/index.php/Bolan_Pass_Railway_Construction)
There's a comprehensive article in Scientific American of 15th August 1885 which is quoted here:
http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/antique-machinery-and-history/off-topic-indian-railway-199362/ (http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/antique-machinery-and-history/off-topic-indian-railway-199362/)
Note the quote from the article:
M. Decauville had the locomotive made in two parts, the larger of which weighed on 3,978 pounds, the greatest weight that an elephant can carry."
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Btw, this illustration from The Graphic of 2nd October 1880, shows different methods used by the British to transport supplies in Afghanistan (note train in background):
(http://www.silentinvader.uk/image_w_saw_intro_45.jpg)
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I must confess I went looking for maximum weight loads for elephants.After Michi posted the engine picks last night( spot on by the way)and completely forgot to put my two pence worth.
Modern weight loads are quoted as being roughly 3/5 of ton so give or take 1200lbs.(which is a lot more than the majority of modern humane society's quote).
So SI's quote find .would be roughly 1 3/4 tons.It would be a brutality crippling load of almost its own body weight again on its back.If you remove the modern concept of the humane treatment of animals.Then its beginning to look very likely that the original illustration is an attempt to convey all aspects of transporting the railway without the need of a written description.Rather than a fictional illustration
Its likely to be a miserably hard existence for your elephants ,lugging it around be it in two parts or ten.As heartless as it sounds it's still a going to be a great looking model.(so tempted)
Mark.
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It's certainly a fascinating subject matter.
The Bolan Pass was subject to flash floods as depicted here
(http://www.silentinvader.uk/image_w_saw_intro_46.jpg)
IIRC attempts to lay track in the lower levels of the pass resulted in it being washed away.
I guess that using a couple of elephants to do the worst of the heavy lift to the other side seemed entirely logical against the animal welfare standards of the time. :'(
Btw, the Practical Machinist thread says the prefabricated track sections weighed 200lbs each. The elephants seem to be carrying 6 each so 1200lbs, a comparatively light load compared ( :o ) to the two lumbered with the engine.
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It's interesting to note how implausible things seem when you've grown up in a culture that has a health and safety executive.
I am sorely tempted to build one.So with that in mind I'm going to ask some lazy questions(just to get a quick idea of its usefulness) How long was this type of engine used for(as id have to use it for multiple periods to Justify the effort)for 600mm would it be visually better to use HO or N gauge rails(not bothered about the sleepers as they'd need reworking either way.)if HO then I could probably reuse the ww1 light railway track I've on a back burner.
The trouble is all this images are evocate and run the risk of totally sidetracking into making camels and the like.
That's the trouble with this forum. Just when you think you've got to grips with your back logged projects.
Someone posts a thread like this.,😁
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Mark
From the Wikipedia link in the first post
The French military became interested in the Decauville system as early as 1888 and chose the 600 mm (1 ft 11 5⁄8 in) gauge track to equip its strongholds and to carry artillery pieces and ammunition during military campaigns. Decauville track was used during the French military expeditions to Madagascar and Morocco.
The Maginot line was built with both external and internal 600mm railways, the former served by combustion engines pulling supply trains from 1,435 mm (4 ft 8 1⁄2 in) standard gauge marshalling yards[2] behind the front, and the latter, served by eletric locomotives taking over the loaded wagons inside the fortifications. Tracks inside the fortresses went from the munitions entries in the rear all the way up to the fighting blocks, where ammunition loads were transfered to forward magazines using overhead monorails.
Similar feldbahn equipment was used in German South-West Africa where Otavi Minen- und Eisenbahn-Gesellschaft built the 600 mm (1 ft 11 5⁄8 in) gauge Otavibahn.[3]
By the First World War, the Decauville system had become a military standard and the French and British eventually built thousands of miles of trench railways track. The Germans had a similar system, with normalized engines
So basically, the world is your oyster ;) :D
No idea as yet on which track size to use..... but......
600mm at 1/56 is 10.7mm [versus the 16.5mm gauge of Hornby track (or 1/36) and the 9mm of British N gauge (or 1/66)]
..... my inclination is towards the larger Hornby, as the minis will be based and the track/engine/stock wont. :)
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Mark
From the Wikipedia link in the first post
So basically, the world is your oyster ;) :D
No idea as yet on which track size to use..... but......
600mm at 1/56 is 10.7mm [versus the 16.5mm gauge of Hornby track (or 1/36) and the 9mm of British N gauge (or 1/66)]
..... my inclination is towards the larger Hornby, as the minis will be based and the track/engine/stock wont. :)
There is 12mm TT gauge (1/120 scale) or H0m narrow gauge (1/87 scale) too:
https://www.tillig.com/Gleise.html
http://www.bemo-modellbahn.de/produkte/schweizer-bahnen-h0m.html?tx_userbemocatalogue_rubriclist%5Bvehicle%5D=22&tx_userbemocatalogue_rubriclist%5Baction%5D=show&tx_userbemocatalogue_rubriclist%5Bcontroller%5D=Vehicle&cHash=eb5867a2da1cfdd30ec39157df6b0b7
I would prefer Roco H0e 9mm Feldbahn tracks (1/87th scale narrow gauge) for the look of it:
https://www.roco.cc/de/productsearch/0-0-0-0-0-0-0-005/products.html
(https://www.roco.cc/doc/idimages/def/22502.jpg)
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There is 12mm TT gauge (1/120 scale) or H0m narrow gauge (1/87 scale) too:
https://www.tillig.com/Gleise.html
http://www.bemo-modellbahn.de/produkte/schweizer-bahnen-h0m.html?tx_userbemocatalogue_rubriclist%5Bvehicle%5D=22&tx_userbemocatalogue_rubriclist%5Baction%5D=show&tx_userbemocatalogue_rubriclist%5Bcontroller%5D=Vehicle&cHash=eb5867a2da1cfdd30ec39157df6b0b7
I would prefer Roco H0e 9mm Feldbahn tracks (1/87th scale narrow gauge) for the look of it:
https://www.roco.cc/de/productsearch/0-0-0-0-0-0-0-005/products.html
(https://www.roco.cc/doc/idimages/def/22502.jpg)
I'm guided by you Michi, you're the expert. Thanks. :)
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How long was this type of engine used for(as id have to use it for multiple periods to Justify the effort)
This type of engine and the entire 600mm Feldbahn system was used from the 1870s until the second half of the 20th century by Germany, Russia and Great Britain as well as by a lot of other states and companies around the globe for industrial use as well. The German navy had a 25km railroad network in Laboe in use until 1993 if I´m correct, although then served by a fleet of around ten diesel engines. Queensland has a wide network of sugar cane railroads of that gauge even today.
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Thank you gents you've saved me PM's.
The reason I asked is my original game plan was to strip the rails off HO track id put a side for ww1 and re bed them into the right width.I normally work on 5mm to a ft when sculpting,so I had a lazy thought that N gauge would be quick fix.But worried that the rails might look to thin.
(SI) your right its an interesting topic.I've a fondness for narrow gauges having spent a summer when I was younger driving a WW1 diesel munitions engine for Beverley Military Transport Museum.
If you do decide to have a go at building one on the back of an elephant.Let me know as I did whole range elephants for 1st corps.Simon is due at mine on Friday to collect some work so ill twist his arm then.
( its how I intended to do the elephant's anyway!)
Since Michi's posted while I'm one finger typing.Im now of the mind to twist Simons arm into letting make one that can be cast.
Mark
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For what it's worth
From the Illustrated London News of 20th August 1885, the old and new ways of moving supplies through the Bolan Pass
(http://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/25/2031_08_09_16_11_36_38.jpeg)
Presumably this is a broader gauge and, seeing as it crosses the river bed, was the first of the permanent (though it was subsequently washed away) tracks through the pass.
I do wish I could find more on the Decauville track that was being apparently built in 1880 and was suspended with the loss at Maiwand.
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I printed Michi's image and rescaled it to 1/50 (if I use 12mm TT to represent 600mm then that's 1/50, which also gives me a bit of extra room for a base on a 1/56 mini).
Here's the rescale with a Perry Mafeking in the cab:
(http://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/25/2031_08_09_16_5_26_34.jpeg)
It's certainly sizes up as a cute little engine for the skirmish table.
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Jolly good, now get on a build it :D
cheers
James
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Useful? Definitely!
It's scale compression with out the hassle of actually compressing anything.
I'd originally planned on making a 28mm engine,however once I'd built the Shay engine land train,and carriages it dawned on me that it filled all my gaming needs (for pulp and bob)so no need to waist time on a new engine.
Now this means I can still have a railed train.I wonder if you could use something like an alpine train carriage to do a more'conventional looking' train?
Only issue I can see for a scratch build,is it's likely to need a counter weight as it might end up pulling wheelies every time the table gets knocked if you add a metal crew.
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No idea about carriages (other than the flatbed shown in the article). Sorry.
On a more positive note I've taken the plunge and ordered about 1.5m of Tillig TT flexitrack with 'steel' sleepers and 12 sets of 12mm gauge by 8.3mm dia wheels (they have 22.5mm axles).
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An interesting article that explores another way of getting round the problem that was the mountains: a broad gauge funicular railway for piggy-backing the trains
http://www.funimag.com/photoblog/index.php/articles/pk-pakistan-khojak-rope-inclines/ (http://www.funimag.com/photoblog/index.php/articles/pk-pakistan-khojak-rope-inclines/)
Also has some additional info on the 1879/1880 plans for a track to Kandahar