6mm Sengoku Jidai

[fred]

Amazing work. I've just found this thread. And each set of pictures is better than the last.

I do like what you have done to arrange the 700 man unit. It very much has the look of a European tercio style formations.

[Osmoses]

The vilage and vilagers look great, is it a modular layout or just broken up for convenience?

The bases can sort of fit together coherently, but most of the time they'll be split up on the table.

Really cool stuff! Where did you get those hills from?

Thanks. The hills are from Kallistra, from their 'non-hex terrain' range. They're hollow plastic so they stack for storage, and they're reasonably priced. I really like them, but they only do one set of normal hills and one set of 'cliff' hills. I'm looking for similar ones elsewhere, but no luck yet.

[Osmoses]

So, a second battle done. This time using an adaptation of the board game 'Tenkatoitsu.' Turned out to be a great game and has finally made my mind up about which rules to use for Sengoku Jidai battles.
Report is here:
https://wargamesasp.wordpress.com/2018/01/10/6mm-sengoku-jidai-battle-with-tenkatoitsu/

[YPU]

Lovely seeing it all on the table!

Also quite interesting how you have adapted a hex based board game to a miniature wargame!

[Osmoses]

It was reasonably straightforward as we were using a grid for movement. There might be an issue down the line with battlefield size. Our units are bigger in relation to our table size than the counters are to the hex board in the original game. But we shall see how it goes. There's a bit more of an explanation here:

https://tenkafubu608971038.wordpress.com/2018/01/10/tenkatoitsu-the-holy-grail-of-sengoku-jidai-battle-rules/

[dddd99]

Osmoses, just wanted to say simply incredible. I have reading your blog for awhile and enjoy the great detail you provide in the quest to find the perfect sengoku wargame. I have been reading Tenkatoitsu for a little bit now and find it amusing that you found them too.

One of the frustrating things about gaming this era is the scant information since due to all the war at the time no one was really writing down the history; it wasn't until mostly the Edo period where people started "recording" the sengoku information, but by then it was roughly 100 years too late and as seen through the lens of the Tokugawa victors. Congrats on coming the closest I have yet seen to credible sengoku massed battle wargames. Really incredible work.

Keep it up and keep blogging since it is good reading to see all yr progress. best wishes.

[Osmoses]

Thanks very much dddd9. It's been a long journey. I'm 'Rabelais' over on TMP, btw, and I remember our discussion some time ago.

As you say, it is very difficult getting a handle on Sengoku warfare. The research in the West has been rather poor, with anecdotes and Edo-period anachronisms finding their way into the history. The gaming genre is filled with cliches that more properly belong in other periods of Japanese history, or are flat-out myths. Paradoxically, a lot of these cliches are what makes the genre so attractive I think. There's a load of material available in Japanese of course, but no-one is going to be translating it any time soon. And there aren't many Western academics that are interested in Japanese military history, Thomas Conlon and Karl Friday are about it afaik. Ultimately, like any wargaming genre, it comes down to finding a set of rules that represent the period as you personally think it was like. For me, Tenkatoitsu is way above anything else. Others may disagree.

[Osmoses]

We played a second game of Tenkatoitsu. This time using bigger bases, which made the game move a lot quicker.

https://tenkafubu608971038.wordpress.com/2018/02/01/a-second-game-with-tenkatoitsu/

[olyreed]

Great report, and very tempted by 6mm

[OSHIROmodels]

Good looking games 

cheers

James

[dddd99]

Osmoses, yeah I knew you are Rabelais and also recall our discussions. You gave me some help towards fashioning my own set of rules. It was always a good discussion and I am glad you've made such good progress; I, on the other hand, not as much haha.

I think I am jealous of your productivity. You are now rebasing while I am more like just getting started. Do you care to tell me your basing dimensions and figure distribution that you use currently?

I am glad you are so prolific these days and enjoy your recent blog posts. Have you thought of creating a campaign scenario, ie multiple interlocking battles, with your new setup and rules?

best wishes

[wkeyser]

Hi Saw this report and very excited to get going on my pile of 10mm figures. I do have a few questions for you.

First, are you just using the numbers from the counters in the game on your larger bases?

I talked about using the Killer Katanas scenario books, do you have any thoughts on how best to use this. You mentioned using each 100 men as a strength point, but what are your thoughts on number of figures per point?

I had thought of using bases per strength point but as you mentioned on TMP that is a lot of figures and a lot of bases, what I think I will look at is to figure out ground scale to determine number of bases then go from there to make the bases.  Do you have any thoughts on that for using 10mm bases.

I must say the idea of using multiple bases is about being able to use other rules, but the more I read your battle description I am thinking more and more that your solution for large bases is the way to go.

By the way the game is still avalable as a board game from Hexim and they are fast at shipping.  https://www.hexasim.com/en/

William

[Osmoses]

I think I am jealous of your productivity. You are now rebasing while I am more like just getting started. Do you care to tell me your basing dimensions and figure distribution that you use currently?

I am glad you are so prolific these days and enjoy your recent blog posts. Have you thought of creating a campaign scenario, ie multiple interlocking battles, with your new setup and rules?

best wishes

The base sizes are 95mm x 70mm. This is so they fit in a 10cm square with enough room for a commander or other markers. The rebased versions have 6 of my old bases on them, so there's around 50 figures. The newer ones will be similar. There isn't really a set formula for the figure types, especially not now I'm using counters to indicate the unit stats, but I'm planning on having slightly fewer figures for minor clans, less guns, fewer mounted etc. Basically it'll be based on front line missiles, 2nd line long spears, 3rd line samurai with command group in the centre or rear.

6mm has been a bit of a revelation for me, and has enabled some big projects to get going quickly. I used to hate painting them, but once I got the hang of it I've become one of those zealous converts. Printing the sashimono has been a massive time-saver too. Decals would have been a nightmare.

A campaign framework is something I definitely want to do eventually, but I've not really spent any time on it. I've started on an 'army generator' which will generate an army of various sized clans with different stats etc. But that's a pretty easy thing to do.

[Osmoses]

Hi Saw this report and very excited to get going on my pile of 10mm figures. I do have a few questions for you.

First, are you just using the numbers from the counters in the game on your larger bases?

I talked about using the Killer Katanas scenario books, do you have any thoughts on how best to use this. You mentioned using each 100 men as a strength point, but what are your thoughts on number of figures per point?

I had thought of using bases per strength point but as you mentioned on TMP that is a lot of figures and a lot of bases, what I think I will look at is to figure out ground scale to determine number of bases then go from there to make the bases.  Do you have any thoughts on that for using 10mm bases.

I must say the idea of using multiple bases is about being able to use other rules, but the more I read your battle description I am thinking more and more that your solution for large bases is the way to go.

By the way the game is still avalable as a board game from Hexim and they are fast at shipping.  https://www.hexasim.com/en/

William

Essentially, the numbers are from the counters. This last game used the stats from some of the units in the Yamazaki scenario. But I'm going to do an army generator which will generate armies with unit stats based on the spread of stats in the game. So poorer or more rustic clans will have more of the 0-1-1 units, while the 1-2-4 units will be more likely in 'richer' clans. It's a work in progress at the moment.

I guess the number of figures per strength point depends on how many figures you want to use. Thinking about it again, maybe around 200 men per point would be better for the KK scenarios. In 10mm maybe a squad of 5 figures per point? It's hard to say really as it depends on your available space and how many figures you want to paint. We use a 10cm grid, so we have 15 squares of depth which feels like just about enough at the moment. If you used 75mm bases, then you could get more squares in which might be more useful if you go for really big battles down the road. If you're using measures, then you have a bit more flexibility as you can have units of movement close to your base-sizes, e.g. I could probably use 8cm movement increments with my bases and thereby increase the size of the battlefield in terms of move distances. The key is to hit the best compromise between total number of figures you can realistically finish, your available space and the look you want your bases to have. It's worth spending a lot of time getting that compromise right IMO, saves time rebasing later on.........

I would say having large bases with the unit stats on them has been a massive improvement in utility over the smaller bases. It's much easier to move them, and you don't have to count the bases all the time to get the stats. Normally I don't like having numbers on the bases, but it has saved a lot of time in terms of set-up and moving. Again, it depends if you're using the figures for other sets of rules, and I was thinking about playing large skirmishes with the smaller bases, which won't be possible with the new ones, but I still have some in 15mm for that.

Hexasim are supposed to be bringing out a 3rd game in the Sengoku series this year. It'll probably be called 'Tenka Fubu,' and will deal with 3 of Oda Nobunaga's battles (Okehazama, Anegawa and Nagashino). So I think I'm going to wait for that. You're right though, looking again it's not nearly as hard to get hold of the game as I initially thought 

[wkeyser]

Hi
Ok sat down with some 10mm figs and the counters to see what type of varitions in strength numbers I would have to cover.

I had a bunch of bases 6cm x 8cm from Litko that was the basic size. So looking at the map and it states 1 hex is 200m that means that 8cm is 200m. So from there we go to 5 bases per 1000m. That means I end up with a ground scale of 40cm per Kilometer. This means that our gaming tables at the club of 300cm and 450cm gives I hope enough for most of the battles I would like to game.

Now the figures, i am think of for Mass points 8 figures of ashigaru per point. Fire point is 6-8 figures, Elan 4-6 figurs per point. Leadership would be a separate mounted or food commander just touching the base.

I am also going to have the numbers on the base Like yours which is a great idea.

Now I have to get those damn figures pointed.

William