Star Wars: Legion large scale FFG ground combat minis wargame

[Michi]

Ahem, wasn't the Battle of Hoth in Ep V a big battle?
I can really see potential for combined arms 6mm / 1/270 scale battles in Star Wars! Walkers, Snow speeder etc

That was exactly my idea Agis.

[Agis]

Sure thing!

Hoth was what Star Wars meant for me growing up! And it's pretty big. Way too big to make it with 28mm. And the same is probably true for Endor.

So yeah. 6-15mm would have worked, and 15s would also have allowed for characters!

Oh yes, I would have loved 15mm! The bigger scale is really a mystery to me!
If they would have chosen the same scale as Imperial Assault, I could understand it, but bigger?

[eMills]

Oh yes, I would have loved 15mm! The bigger scale is really a mystery to me!
If they would have chosen the same scale as Imperial Assault, I could understand it, but bigger?

While I'm personally glad that they stayed at the larger size, extremely large battles at 15mm would have been cool.

I was also thinking about the minis shown so far. Everything that I can find about them says that they are all resin prototypes. I wonder if they were shrunk down to the expected final PVC size or if they were printed at 100%? If they were printed at 100%, the final figures will be smaller than what has been shown.

~Eric

[Grimmnar]

Ahem, wasn't the Battle of Hoth in Ep V a big battle?

And that is the big battle I see most played when someone does a big Star Wars battle.

Grimm

[DivisMal]

Oh yes, I would have loved 15mm! The bigger scale is really a mystery to me!
If they would have chosen the same scale as Imperial Assault, I could understand it, but bigger?

Oh yes. When I heard the first news and saw the name ("Legions"), it was just what I would have expected 15mm or smaller.

Don't get me wrong, I think Star Wars also allows for a good Skirmisher, but I think they would have just needed to release more (and more varied) IA models.

[DivisMal]

And that is the big battle I see most played when someone does a big Star Wars battle.

Grimm

I remember having had an old plastic model kit (Ertl?) as a kid. It contained an AT-AT, some laser towers and snow speeders. Must have been 6mm and even at that scale the AT-AT was pretty large.

Oh what a missed opportunity!

[Manchu]

This is a fairly niche forum even by the standards of miniatures hobby message boards. I think it's important to keep in mind the vast chasm yawning between LAF posters and the target customer of a crossover product like Star Wars Legion, which is a person who may have never even considered themselves a "gamer" much less a miniatures war gamer, before seeing this specific product. For that kind of person, a 6-15mm scale miniatures game has very limited appeal - although for some of us, this might seem ideal.

Additonally, there is a rumor of some kind of licensing dispute (that has been patched over) between Hasbro and FFG. The result is that FFG has limited distribution rights regarding Imperial Assault, which in turn implies that FFG would in no way, shape, or form risk a similar burden related to Legion, so compatibility between components of these two games would be out of the question as a matter of principle.

Finally, and more fundamentally, Imperial Assault and Legion are unrelated games. Because both include miniatures among their components and those miniatures are, for whatever reason, of similar scale, it is natural to wonder about compatibility. It could be a bonus, for sure, but it is pretty arbitrary to conclude that these games should be compatible, even if the licensing issues described above are merely rumors.

[DivisMal]

This is a fairly niche forum even by the standards of miniatures hobby message boards. I think it's important to keep in mind the vast chasm yawning between LAF posters and the target customer of a crossover product like Star Wars Legion, which is a person who may have never even considered themselves a "gamer" much less a miniatures war gamer, before seeing this specific product. For that kind of person, a 6-15mm scale miniatures game has very limited appeal - although for some of us, this might seem ideal.

Additonally, there is a rumor of some kind of licensing dispute (that has been patched over) between Hasbro and FFG. The result is that FFG has limited distribution rights regarding Imperial Assault, which in turn implies that FFG would in no way, shape, or form risk a similar burden related to Legion, so compatibility between components of these two games would be out of the question as a matter of principle.

Finally, and more fundamentally, Imperial Assault and Legion are unrelated games. Because both include miniatures among their components and those miniatures are, for whatever reason, of similar scale, it is natural to wonder about compatibility. It could be a bonus, for sure, but it is pretty arbitrary to conclude that these games should be compatible, even if the licensing issues described above are merely rumors.

Well Micro Machines and the XWIng game have been popularizing Star Wars in small sclaes (ranging from like 2-20mm, but most often in 6/15mm IMO) for decades. revell and Ertl have been doing the same.

So I think, I'd disagree and argue they just went the easy way and chose to make another IA...and thereby ürofit from GW's and the Perry Brothers ' "indoctrination" that 28mm is the "best" scale.

Btw: of course this is a niche forum, but it's not a nerd-rage forum. As the relative moderate success of the recent GoT KS from CMON has shown, many people in here do represent larger buyers segments, and these don't buy if they (i.e. We) don't like it.

[Manchu]

I mean, even referencing some kind of supposed indoctrination conspiracy is an example of being at least a bit out of touch, even within the niche within a niche of tabletop miniatures gaming. Scale creep is not limited to the 25-28-32 progression, after all; not a few lines marketed as 15mm are closer to 20mm in practice (e.g., Xyston). Some kind of prefence for larger as opposed to smaller minis is not so totally unfounded in observed trends as to require a theory of indoctrination.

In FFG's case, I don't think the issue is following GW's lead or the Perrys more specifically (or were you referencing post-GW Perrys, whose lines run to a slim 30mm nowadays). I've posted it in this thread twice before already but a designer working for FFG has publicaly stated the company was frustrated by the lack of detail that they experienced with smaller scale figures, which happened in the case to which he was referring to be about 15mm. Regardless of what GW is doing, FFG has its own reasons to prefer 32-35mm miniatures.

Referencing toy lines or model kits isn't too convincing. This is in line with a certain kind of hobby veteran mindset, the development of an eye for cobbling togeter suitable materials from wherever they can be found. But as to Legion, we are considering a product aimed at mainstream consumers who are looking for a pretty well complete out-of-the-box experience. The size of some unrelated toy is unlikely to occur to them at all.

[Derek H]

Sorry, I still do NOT get it, what is wrong with FFG? 

Fantasy Flight Games stand accused of using a "pay to win" business model in many of their games under which you have to keep buying new product in order to remain competitive.  And if you look at the section headed "Build Your Army" in the article at https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/news/2017/8/18/star-wars-legion/ it looks like Star Wars Legions will follow that model, at least to some extent.  

Their core starter sets are usually good value but expanding the game, which you'll need to do if you want to win in tournament or remain competitive in an open environment, gets expensive.  Some of the expansions for their Runewars game have two figures (one mounted) with a recommended retail of £25. Rank and file troops are cheaper than that, but you'll be needing the expensive ones if you want to win games against people who have them.  

They do seem to have backed off from the worse excesses of this model under which people were paying large sums of money on X-Wing  just to get a card with a special ability which could only be found  in a pack with a model that was useless to them.

FFG make good games.  But their history suggests you'll be buying into something that can easily turn into an arms race and money pit.  

[Manchu]

I think the arms race point is only really germane to the competitive/PUG context.

[Derek H]

I think the arms race point is only really germane to the competitive/PUG context.

Indeed.  It can be avoided if you keep things  under control and play with a group of like-minded individuals.   

But how many wargames can avoid New Shiny Syndrome. 

[Manchu]

Well TBH that is a separate issue.

[Derek H]

New shiny which increases the effectiveness of your force can be very difficult to resist.   Add in some iconic Star Wars character or vehicle and the effect will be magnified for many.   

The question becomes, can everyone in the group you play with muster the levels of self-control necessary to avoid the arms race money pit? 

[DivisMal]

I mean, even referencing some kind of supposed indoctrination conspiracy is an example of being at least a bit out of touch, even within the niche within a niche of tabletop miniatures gaming. Scale creep is not limited to the 25-28-32 progression, after all; not a few lines marketed as 15mm are closer to 20mm in practice (e.g., Xyston). Some kind of prefence for larger as opposed to smaller minis is not so totally unfounded in observed trends as to require a theory of indoctrination.

^^Buddy, you're sure, you mean what you were just saying? This reply is rather impolite and strange to me, and I think, you can have this thread now for yourself and I'll enjoy painting some minis.

The idea that 28s sell better is mostly relying on the large scale advertisement by GW and others. Take monies and do the same for smaller scales (e.g.: FoW) and it will also work for smaller scales.