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Author Topic: NEW SAGA EDITION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  (Read 18448 times)

Offline SteveBurt

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Re: NEW SAGA EDITION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
« Reply #45 on: November 07, 2017, 12:02:56 PM »
I don't really oppose any of the changes but I agree with these sentiments. It looks like the changes make it impossible for a Warlord to pawn hits off on Hearthguard in melee unless you have a unit placed very close by, watching the battle (unless one of the rule changes allows multiple units in combat).

You've always needed to be very close by to farm out hits (within VS, which is 2"). The only change is that only hearthguard can be sacrificed in v2, not warriors, so the old tactic of a unit of 4 cheap warriors following the warlord around is gone.
I don't know why they got rid of 'side by side', though. That seems a negative change.

Offline Codsticker

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Re: NEW SAGA EDITION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
« Reply #46 on: November 07, 2017, 03:27:40 PM »
You've always needed to be very close by to farm out hits (within VS, which is 2"). The only change is that only hearthguard can be sacrificed in v2, not warriors, so the old tactic of a unit of 4 cheap warriors following the warlord around is gone.
I don't know why they got rid of 'side by side', though. That seems a negative change.
By using the 'With Me' rule the Warlord could charge in with his buddies; however, according to the Skirmishwargaming link:
Quote
The “With Me” rule is scrapped: the Warlord can no longer charge with another unit: if he does charge, he charges by himself – which is where the beefed up number of attack dice come in handy!
If I understand it correctly that means you have to have a unit of hearthguard strategically positioned before the charge to pawn off a wound.

Offline SteveBurt

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Re: NEW SAGA EDITION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
« Reply #47 on: November 08, 2017, 01:25:40 PM »
'Side by Side' is the rule that lets the warlord charge with guards.
'Follow me' lets him move another unit for free. In the current Saga you use both to charge in together.
So you could use 'Follow me' to move the guards up, then charge in with the warlord, just not 'side by side'

Offline Codsticker

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Re: NEW SAGA EDITION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
« Reply #48 on: November 08, 2017, 03:59:59 PM »
'Side by Side' is the rule that lets the warlord charge with guards.
'Follow me' lets him move another unit for free. In the current Saga you use both to charge in together.
So you could use 'Follow me' to move the guards up, then charge in with the warlord, just not 'side by side'
Yeah that's right; that would work.

Offline Coenus Scaldingus

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Re: NEW SAGA EDITION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
« Reply #49 on: November 20, 2017, 04:20:18 PM »
Thanks to a Mr. Parker on the SAGA Facebook group, who was at Warfare and talked to Andy for some time, we have a bit more (and comfirmations of previously released info):
Quote
- Troops L away from the enemy may make a free move as long as it doesn't take them within L of the enemy. Designed to stop a lot of time spent manoeuvring
- battle boards are changing - I saw the Anglo-Dane one and its broadly similar but different.
- the A&A boards are not changing - these were designed and play tested with with SAGA 2
- a lot of the changes are designed to stop some of the gamier elements of play - perhaps more often seen at tournaments
- all figures fight in melee, end of. doesn't matter where they are
- Straight line movement - its a thing but what wasn't explained is that you nominate a figure. That figure moves first and then all other models must end within (I think) VS of it. This stop for example a lateral line of troops shifting sideways as the figures on the far end cant possibly end within VS. It forces units to bunch.
- there is no side by side rule - warlords go in by themselves if they go in
- rules will be cheap.....however the period packs will be pricier. A price was mentioned but don't think I should post.....
- GP are selling SAGA 1 stuff 50% of cost now recognising the change is coming
- old boards are definitely compatible with new .....but some common sense allowances for new rules might needed.

Main points here are the changes in movement (not just straight line, but move 1 figure and place others nearby) and the fact that all figures in a unit now fight when that unit is in combat. The latter will help deal with different base sizes and intricate measuring whether a figure is or isn't quite in range (although C&C's rules allowing base contact to count regardless solved most issues I encountered). However, this combined with the movement changes (VS seems extreme, perhaps S?) does completely remove the idea of formations and flank attacks. Although SAGA may not have dedicated rules for either, the rules automatically represented such factors quite nicely: if attacking a long line of troops in the flank, you will get few attacks in return while dealing massive damage, while tight shieldwalls are much stronger. As with other apparent changes, I can imagine part of the reasoning will have been to stop exploitation of loopholes, but I once again feel the new rules enhance simplicity at the cost of creativity and having a truly interesting game.
~Ad finem temporum~

Offline Nord

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Re: NEW SAGA EDITION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
« Reply #50 on: November 20, 2017, 05:06:55 PM »
I don't mind these changes, they appeal to me. I dislike the fiddle of determining which figures can fight and which cannot - it's open to interpretation/exploitation and is pretty dumb, so quite happy with that one. Streamlining is what I would call it, rather than simplification. There's still plenty of skill to be employed in deciding how to use the dice, how to tackle the scenario, how to outwit your opponent, etc. Complex, fiddly rules do not mean more tactical depth necessarily, just more faffing and potential arguing with opponents. Roll on version 2.  :D

Offline Ogrob

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Re: NEW SAGA EDITION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
« Reply #51 on: November 20, 2017, 05:26:26 PM »
I don't mind these changes, they appeal to me. I dislike the fiddle of determining which figures can fight and which cannot - it's open to interpretation/exploitation and is pretty dumb, so quite happy with that one. Streamlining is what I would call it, rather than simplification. There's still plenty of skill to be employed in deciding how to use the dice, how to tackle the scenario, how to outwit your opponent, etc. Complex, fiddly rules do not mean more tactical depth necessarily, just more faffing and potential arguing with opponents. Roll on version 2.  :D

Absolutely on the fighting. If the whole unit is eligeble to be killed by the combat, it makes more sense that they all fight.

Offline Nord

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Re: NEW SAGA EDITION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
« Reply #52 on: November 20, 2017, 05:49:32 PM »
If the Arthur book was designed with version 2 in mind, that was £30 I seem to remember, so maybe that's the new price point? It was hardback and nicely done, bit expensive if you ask me, but just about tolerable. It did only contain six factions. If the new books contain more factions and a proportionate price increase, sheesh, that will be a shock. I reckon I am happy to pay for a book what I would normally pay for a box of soldiers, so around £25 to £30 seems okay. Any more than that I tend to grumble a lot. Then not buy it. If the price is higher than £30, then I really do think they will have shot themselves in the foot. From VS range of course.  ;)

Offline Nord

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Re: NEW SAGA EDITION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
« Reply #53 on: November 20, 2017, 07:40:49 PM »
Yeah I heard around a tenner for the rulebook, which is absolutely fine.

The Arthur book was £27, just checked it on their site. So I reckon that's a reasonable ball park estimate to make. If the extra factions bump up the price much, well.....? I suppose having the boards printed separately adds somewhat to the printing cost. I guess we will find out for sure soon enough, but I hope it's not too much. I don't want their pricing to kill my favourite game (already been through that trauma with WHFB).  :'( :'( :'(

Offline Randell

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Re: NEW SAGA EDITION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
« Reply #54 on: November 20, 2017, 09:22:48 PM »
I don't like losing side by side.

Offline Codsticker

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Re: NEW SAGA EDITION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
« Reply #55 on: November 21, 2017, 04:32:44 PM »
I don't like losing side by side.
The only thing I can think of is there must have been some sort of cheesy tournament move that was possible with Side By Side; it seems perfectly 'flavourful' otherwise so why get rid of it.

Offline Nord

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Re: NEW SAGA EDITION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
« Reply #56 on: November 21, 2017, 05:16:38 PM »
There could also be confusion over some battle board abilities - did they apply to one or both units, that kind of confusion. I sort of liked the lord going in with his hearthguard, heroic action style. I might miss this rule, it depends on the new beefed up warlord, maybe he doesn't need babysitters any more?

Offline Randell

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Re: NEW SAGA EDITION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
« Reply #57 on: November 21, 2017, 08:10:00 PM »
Surely it means the Warlord loses his bodyguard as well when he initiates combat.

I can't see a single change I like.

Offline SteveBurt

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Re: NEW SAGA EDITION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
« Reply #58 on: November 22, 2017, 10:52:05 AM »
Side by Side does cause a lot of complications. When the defender spends fatigue he has to say which unit he spends on, When he causes hit he has to allocate them, when he uses Saga abilities he has to designate one unit (mostly).
A Warlord can still benefit from a bodyguard when charging. Use 'follow me' to move the bodyguard near the opponent, then charge in with your Warlord as part of the same activation, who will now be close to the bodyguard and able to sacrifice them if he takes hits.
So while I'm not fond of the change , I can see whey they did it as this is the most complex area in the rules and often a cause of head scratching.

Offline Randell

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Re: NEW SAGA EDITION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
« Reply #59 on: November 22, 2017, 05:12:58 PM »
Agreed but for seasoned players those kinks/issues were ironed out years ago.

Personally, as a defender, if the warlord has 2 or more bodyguard, it almost always makes sense to not attack the warlord, the bodyguard are generally lower armour, the Warlord has Resilience and, whatever the sacrifice rule is called, so with 2 bodyguard you need to guarantee 4 uncancelled hits to kill him.  Which is 6 hits on average after defence dice.  So that decision is almost always clear and make the fatigue and ability allocation clear.

At this stage I cant see me using the new rules in my own no-tourney gaming group.  I'll be OldSaga'ing

 

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