List of Players in Russian Revolution (Wargame Armies)

[ErikB]

Hi Folks.

I am becoming confused by the different players in the Russian Revolution, at least from a wargaming perspective.

Who were the different Reds?  There were the Cheka, Red Guards, some kind of regular troops?  Siberian Rifles?

And which groups fought for the Whites?  According to my aunt, I have a great-great uncle who was in the Princess Olga regiment, but what were these regiments?  Were they bodyguards?  Or just a regiment with a compelling name to it?

Who did the White soldiers serving in Chinese armies fight?  How do they fit in?

(You can probably tell that I am trying to figure out Mark Copplestone's fantastic range of minis with these questions.)

What about the people further East, in the Stan countries?  How were they involved in the Revolution?

I am reading a fantastic book by a British SAS operator who travelled pretty far into the East, making it to Georgia, during the period of Stalin's show trials (which he attended).  Seems that these inner-countries were only vaguely aware of, connected to, or bothered by the Revolution.

Thanks for your explanations, folks.

[Shardifier]

That's one of the things I love about this period - learning about all the mixed-up sides fighting for/against each other (and themselves!). I'd recommend that you read Peter Hopkirk's fantastic Setting the East Ablaze for a small insight into what was going on (https://www.amazon.co.uk/Setting-East-Ablaze-Lenins-Empire/dp/0719564506)

As for all your questions, I'm not an expert but I'm sure someone more learned than myself can provide some answers. In the meantime have a few things that might be of interest:

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bukhara_operation_(1920)
* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lavr_Kornilov
* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_von_Ungern-Sternberg

Also, if you're on Facebook, why not consider joining the BoB Group? https://www.facebook.com/groups/1512379345752577/

[Johnno]

Cuprum will hopefully chime in with his expertise.

AFAIK:
Reds were Bolsheviks (became Communist party)
Whites were loyal to Tsarist regime
China was a country of warring states/ideas

So Cheka, red guards, Siberian rifles etc are just different units sculpted by Copplestone for flavour

China/Russia share borders so units could go wherever the pay was best.

[juergen c. olk]

Checkout the Siberian Miniatures Forum..tons of info

[cuprum]

Whites were loyal to Tsarist regime

Bold statement))) In fact, there were few monarchists among whites.

Cuprum will hopefully chime in with his expertise.

The question is so vast that I am not ready to answer it in the format of this forum.
To begin with, it is desirable to read something on the topic, in order to have at least some idea.
Start, for example, with "Osprey":

№ 293  - Russian Civil War. The Red Army
№ 305  - The Russian Civil War. White Armies

[Mark Plant]

Totally agree with Cuprum. You need to read some brief histories or the answers won't make any sense at all.

There were non-Communist "Reds" and Socialist "Whites", depending on who is doing the labelling.

[ErikB]

Thanks for the answers, folks!

I live just a few miles from Facebook, an evil, horrible company that is destroying the towns nearby (including mine), so I don't use it.  I'll have to rely on other sources.

Checka was the pre-KGB, right?  These were the guys who went around torturing, killing, and pressuring non-conformists, both non-communists and those in the party who did not follow the party line, right?

Sounds like the Whites were on the Monarchist side, either motivated by being Monarchists or by being anti-Red.  Is this right?

Similarly, the Reds were either Communists or anti-Monarchists, yes? 

Both Reds and Whites fit one of these categories: True Believers, Anti-Establishment rebels, forced to join, or paid to join, yes?  And this is how we had socialists in the White camp and non-Communist Reds, as well? 

(My Lithuanian antecedents fled from a nasty pre-revolution crackdown against protesters in Vilna.  Cossacks killed almost everyone, including grabbing babies from parents, smashing them against walls and trampling them.  Horrible times.  That's how we came to the USA ca. 120 years ago.)

And the Basmachi movement was basically an independence movement, as I understand it (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basmachi_movement).

Back to wargaming, I am still not sure which uniforms belonged to whom.  Those pointed hats, were they Red-specific?  (https://www.copplestonecastings.co.uk/prod.php?prod=49)

And where do the Siberian Rifles fit in?  I see some on Wikipedia as Imperialists and on Copplestone's website they are Reds.  Can someone tell me about them?

Thanks heaps, folks!

I'll see if I can get my hands on those Osprey books. 

[levied troop]

Back to wargaming, I am still not sure which uniforms belonged to whom.  Those pointed hats, were they Red-specific?  (https://www.copplestonecastings.co.uk/prod.php?prod=49)

As others have said, this is a complex period, but in respect of that question, the pointed hat was known as a ‘budenovka’ and was a specifically Red uniform detail introduced around 1919-20.  It’s not necessarily widespread, Red units would have worn a wide variety of headgear and given that it looks quite warm I’d suspect a few Whites would have nicked some.

The Cheka is the forerunner of the KGB - as an example of the internationalist nature of the conflict they quite often used Chinese troops 

The Osprey on the Red Army is good, I seem to recall there were a few issues on accuracy in the Osprey White Army book? 

As a good single volume history of the period I’d recommend Evan Mawdsley’s ‘The Russian Civil War’.

[cuprum]

"Budyonovka" (like the whole new Soviet uniform of the 1919 model) began to appear in the troops already in 1919, but spread quite slowly. Suffice it appeared en masse in 1920, and during the Soviet-Polish war and the struggle for the Crimea. She was, in the overwhelming majority of ordinary khaki with multi-colored stars in front of large (raspberry - infantry, blue - the cavalry, black - artillery and other technical units, etc.). However, red "budennovka`s" also met, as, for example, leather, but it was not regulated arbitrariness.
Basically, all sides had a uniform of the Imperial Army model, with their own characteristics and signs (red, for example, never had shoulder straps). In the white army, British uniform was widely distributed.

In the White Army, the military counter-intelligence carried out the functions of the Cheka (including terror).

Chinese military units (as well as Hungarian, Czech, Polish, etc.) served in quite large numbers in all Soviet power structures. During the First World War, more than 100,000 Chinese were brought to the territory of Russia as gastarbeiters ... By the way, they also served with whites, but much less often.

In "Osprey" a lot of mistakes, but the basic idea of the opposing armies, it will give. It will already be about what to talk 

[ErikB]

Thanks, folks.

I am trying to make a list, here.  If anyone wishes to expand and/or correct it, I would be delighted.

Spacebo.


Periods:
* Early - Rebelling against Tzar/Nobility, rise of Bolsheviks, civilians vs. police, Reds getting mobilized
* Middle - Open war, uniforms
* Late - Reds killing each other, rise of Cheka/KGB, terror, wars with Poland, Ukraine, Livonia

Players:
* Reds
- Checka
- Red Guards
- Bolsheviks
- Mensheviks
- Conscripted peasants

* Whites
- Royalists
- Conscripts
- Siberian Rifles

* Independents:
- Mad Baron (warlord)
- Other warlords (nobles w/their own armies)

* Chinese
- Warlords
- Ex-Whites in service of warlords
- Mercenaries for any side (especially Reds)

* Basmachis - Muslim Central Asians rebelling against conscription, Independence Movement, neither Red nor White

* British & Americans
- Backed the Czechoslovak Legion against the Austrians and Reds
- Backed the Whites against the Reds after they withdrew from WWI

* Tibetans
-

* Poland
-

* Ukraine
-

[Shardifier]

Couple of things which may be of interest to you:

http://www.edinburghwargames.com/the-back-of-beyond/ - plenty of pics and battle reports, plus a faction breakdown

https://rattrap-productions.com/collections/peers-rules - link to the supplement by Chris Peers which has some information you may find useful

[Mark Plant]

You are confusing war games units with real units. There are no "Siberian Rifles", merely infantry from Siberia. I don't care that they are on some army list, they had no existence separate from mere rifles. The Cheka co-opted ordinary units and had no forces of its own until very late, and they didn't fight on the external fronts anyway. Mensheviks is meaningless in context. As is "Royalists".

"Conscript" was 90%, or more, of any Red rifles. Meanwhile you've left out early Red Guards, Naval troops, Internationalists, Latvian Rifles, Cossacks, ChON, Kursanty and Bashkirs, just from the Reds.

Can I suggest again that you read about the subject, rather than trying to put it together from sources that aren't trying to be history?

[Durruti Mike]

This thread needs a reaction pic

[Sir Rodney Ffing]

Can I suggest again that you read about the subject, rather than trying to put it together from sources that aren't trying to be history?

Fair enough, but the poster appears to be looking for a leg up to get him started in a new period which has interested him.  If his aim is to order some models and then read up while he waits for them to arrive and paints them, I can understand his plea for help to avoid making a mistake.   

As he is thinking in terms of the Copplestone range, if you can help him, could you suggest some useful starting forces as a first buy? 

[Shardifier]

As he is thinking in terms of the Copplestone range, if you can help him, could you suggest some useful starting forces as a first buy? 

What a jolly good idea! Whilst I myself have still not managed to do any miniature gaming in the Back of Beyond (does a megagame count?), I have read up a lot in various books, and every thread of this sub-forum. It seems like a good way to go forward is with two or three units and an element in support, whether that's an artillery piece, HMG or something a bit more exotic like a jingal.

So, on that basis, might we suggest 2-3 units of the Bolshevik infantry, the commissar set (for a bod to act as commander, another as a commissar, *and* there's a bod with a flag!), and then possibly an HMG from Copplestone's line of Reds?