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Author Topic: Is 3d printing getting more accessible for wargamers now?  (Read 3297 times)

Offline arloid

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Is 3d printing getting more accessible for wargamers now?
« on: January 16, 2018, 07:14:05 PM »
So I recently saw the Tronxy x5s with a 33x33cm build volume for about $340 on sale, normally costing about $450 (roughly €280 - €372 for us europeans) and started realising how accesible 3d printing has become for the more budget inclined. Another trend I'm seeing is that build volumes are getting bigger then the standard 20x20cm most budget printers seam to fall into. Something els that seams to happen is that manufacturers with good customer service are getting a name, as wel as good understanding of what makes a good, but cheap design.
(as wel as recognising a good design and using them for their own)

Some standout printers are (in my opinion):

Tevo Tarantula
Large community and the ability to choose from flex extruders, dual extruders and a large print bed make it a very versatile printer

Anycubic i3 Mega
Basicly plug and play

Tronxy x5s
Again big print volume, needs some tinkering and some part upgrades.

So what do you guys think, are 3d printers affordable enough now or is it still too much hassle to put them together or pay the price for?
« Last Edit: January 26, 2018, 08:47:16 AM by Westfalia Chris »

Offline Teardrop World

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Re: Is 3d printing getting more accesible for wargamers now?
« Reply #1 on: January 16, 2018, 08:48:45 PM »
Bought a "cheap" chinese i3 and  a better "cheap" chinese D6, plug and play - and an original prusa mk2 kit. The cheap weren't good out the box and asked for a lot of work and tuning. The cheaper i3 is my workhorse for low quality prints and is slow.
The D6 has been upgraded and tuned, but stay noisy. Very noisy. It's a copy of a Zortrax and can print very fine. I use it to print miniatures in 4mm to 28mm and small and detailed pieces of scenery. The layers are nearly invisible with the right settings.
The prusa do nearly all my work, is easy to use, a little noisy. Printed about 12 kg of PLA since two years, have a  huge castle in 15mm, a huge dungeon in 28mm and the same downscaled for 15mm, some home designed scenery........ I don't regret it. The prusa and the i3 are paid by all the prints I made (what it would cost if your prints were available in shop). The motherboard of the D6 died. The D6 will be paid at this year's end.

DON'T look only at the price. All my printers can uses the gcode files from different slicers software. There's mainly Slicer, Simplify 3D and Cura 3. I mostly use Cura 3 now as it allow to fine tune the print: outer perimeter thinner than inner perimeter and so on.
You can also use a lot of plastic brands: PLA is the choice for fine detail, magnetic PLA is available etc. I have seen a more common XYZ printer (very silent and cheap), but it used only proprietary plastic, and only the official slicer from the brand. Not a bad printer, but limited. Don't forget the maintenance cost: ball bearing don't last very long, the nozzle must be changed regulary. On the XYZ, the only way to change the nozzle was to buy a complete head block - and return to the shop to change the bearings.

A standard dungeon piece, the 2x2 inch wall: Take about 16 grams of PLA and less than two hours to print. PLA price per Kg were I live: 25ChF (about 22$). Price of the wall: 0.35$. Compare with a resin one.

So, yes it became accessible, but you need some technical knowledge and a lot of patience. But worth it. Yes, you can print small 6 or 15mm miniatures. No, it's not the same quality than expensive laser printers or traditional sculpts (always the best in my opinion). All in all, a useful tool. I don't consider those machines like a paper printer: those are tools the same way CNC machines, mill machine, circular saw, are tools. I'm a little bit clumsy with tools.

Best regards

Offline arloid

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Re: Is 3d printing getting more accesible for wargamers now?
« Reply #2 on: January 16, 2018, 10:07:40 PM »
I agree with your viewpoints Teardrop World, you do have to take into account the amount of work you have to make in order to get everything working and fine tuned. Not to mention recurring expenses (although those are pretty minor). Technical knowledge is also important and it might not be in everybody's alley to learn all the ins and outs of 3d printing.

That being said, I do think that at least some cheap 3d printers have reached the point that they can print tabletop quality scenery and some even simple miniatures. However you still have to do your research on that.

One improvement over past years of 3d printing is that there are more affordable 3d printers with a cube frame on the market, I think were going to see that a lot more over the years.

Scurv, I agree. If you can't design stuff then you have to either consider learning it or be content with what's offered online.
Like you said, quality isn't always the best online, when it really bothers me however is when a price is attached. Otherwise, well it's only PLA you wasted and that stuff is dirt cheap.
Quality however is one of the reasons I have taken designing into my own hands, sure I have a lot to learn and I might not be much better then a 20 year old CGI artist at the moment, but you have to start somewhere.

However I never understood people who thought they could print a entire smurf army for cheap.

I really love your traction war tread.

Offline beefcake

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Re: Is 3d printing getting more accesible for wargamers now?
« Reply #3 on: January 17, 2018, 05:16:43 AM »
When you buy a $4K printer for your work and use it whenever you want... yes it is  >:D
But seriously way more accessible for your average hobbyist. Aliexpress has some supercheap ones and you can buy some from the USA for $99 USD! Build it yourself though.
The cheap ones have nothing compared to high end printers though but give it time and they will be just as good and just as cheap.


Offline YPU

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Re: Is 3d printing getting more accesible for wargamers now?
« Reply #4 on: January 17, 2018, 06:21:14 AM »
When you buy a $4K printer for your work and use it whenever you want... yes it is  >:D

Its a good excuse isn't it  :D

on a more serious note, we are definitely still in a 3d printing boom, everything is moving at a rapid pace and stuff is getting either better or cheaper, or even both, at all the time. So yes, it's getting more and more accessible to everybody, including gamers.

The main "cheap printers" are still all extrusion printers, and I expect that those will be stuck with visible print lines for the foreseeable future, it's a bit of a inherent nature of the technique. There are plenty of ways to smooth this out, and I feel like that is where the next step for gamers should be. There appears to be a vocal group (hopefully a minority) who are unwilling to do any post work on their prints, or even claim they like the character it gives to the prints. (bollocks to that!) its like 3d printing is becoming the fast food of miniatures. Never the best looking, always a bit artificial "but it will do for now" and I just can't wrap my head around this notion.

Maybe I've been hanging with too many model builders of late, but aren't we used to horrible model kits? If you like a design and there is only a 30-year-old resin kit by a Russian company that went under ages ago, it has bubbles and gaps everywhere but you just give it the love it deserves, fill the bubbles and holes, bend the parts and fix the flaws and end up with something great. Why don't we apply this mentality to 3d prints more often? Heck hasn't this been the case for say, forgeworld models, for ages? Ok, now that I've made myself sound terribly old and grumpy...

I wonder if we won't see a parallel to home printers evolving over the coming years. We have had copy shops for ages, and for most of us its still cheaper to get a 300 page pdf of some obscure ruleset printed at one of those, at probably better quality, than doing it ourselves. I could see a 3d version of this evolving, especially in larger cities. The first steps of this have been made long ago at universities and maker spaces.

3d designer, sculptor and printer, at your service!



3d files! (here)

Offline Vanvlak

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Re: Is 3d printing getting more accesible for wargamers now?
« Reply #5 on: January 17, 2018, 09:07:22 AM »
And take a look at the Build-Something Competition 2018 entries including 3D printing. This would not have been possible 3-4 years ago due to costs, I'd say. Besides cost, they're also getting easier to use, at least that's my impression.

Offline Arlequín

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Re: Is 3d printing getting more accesible for wargamers now?
« Reply #6 on: January 17, 2018, 11:26:05 AM »
I think it was three or four years ago that I agreed that 3D Printing would change the hobby forever. As with all technology quality will increase and prices will fall. Not quite Star Trek 'replicators' by any means, but we're on track to that future point.

That said individual skill with design will still count, just as it does with sculpting by traditional methods; no matter how good your tools, or how 'idiot-proof' CAD becomes. In like manner, you might get a 'perfect' template off the internet, but the quality of the printer/material will always determine what arrives in your hands.

Early days yet still, but there are some good quality figure renders appearing, if only as masters for figures cast using traditional methods. Printing off an entire army might prove expensive for a while yet though.

I don't think it will be long before we're quietly chuckling when we recall 'print lines', in much the same way as we look at today's state of the art figures and wonder how we ever found 'the old ranges' to be attractive.

Offline arloid

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Re: Is 3d printing getting more accesible for wargamers now?
« Reply #7 on: January 17, 2018, 02:09:15 PM »
Beefcake, I agree, however I'm most interested what kind of design approach ultra cheap 3d printers will take wile still delivering good quality.
Personally I think we will see more monoprice select mini clones using v-groove extrusion and a bowden style setup in the sub $150 bracket, with or without a heated bed only real difference with now being the overall build quality of the printer. Not sure if a heated bed is really necessary for a entry level 3d printer, although it's a nice touch.

Arlequín, quality will always be determined by how good of a machine you have and how good your filament is. However I don't think that 3d printing will ever replace hand sculpting, maybe be just as good, but not replace it.

Print lines will probably stay for a while, however become less noticeable. With the advance of "linear advance" and other features that might increase print quality on higher speeds it might become the standard to print with lower layer heights and smaller nozzles. Don't think print lines are as noticeable once you start printing with a 0.2 nozzle, especially with some layers of paint/varnish.

Offline Arlequín

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Re: Is 3d printing getting more accesible for wargamers now?
« Reply #8 on: January 17, 2018, 10:39:10 PM »
When you look at what is produced by laser-drawn SLA printers, it's hard to believe print lines will be with us for long. Okay extrusion printing will always be the cheaper option, but the alternative will eventually become affordable too. Look how many people own laserjet printers today, compared to dot-matrix ones; the one time only 'affordable' option.

SLA printers can also print multiple complex items at the same time...

Offline Rich H

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Re: Is 3d printing getting more accesible for wargamers now?
« Reply #9 on: January 17, 2018, 10:51:20 PM »
Got a 3d printer....i3 clone, it's OK especially for £150 (Anet A8+some upgrades).  
It works fine and can produce some neat stuff but I'm too lazy to learn to draw in CAD properly.  
Messing around with sketchup for now.  Plus it takes hours to draw and print... and I takes me several goes to get things right!

I'm 80% through drawing a T-38 tank but I'm stuck on internal/external surfaces... Sketchup seems to hate me and I got fed up with it.

I've gone back to plasticard, a ruler and knife (and the odd laser cut part).  If I cock up then it's evident immediately and I correct it...
Old fashioned, definitely old school and going to be left behind by the new kids...  but I don't care  lol



Offline Codsticker

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Re: Is 3d printing getting more accesible for wargamers now?
« Reply #10 on: January 18, 2018, 03:05:50 AM »
What is a good 3D printer for someone who:
- has little to no technical expertise/abililty
- will make nice pieces of 28mm terrain
- easy to get replacement parts and materials for

Offline arloid

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Re: Is 3d printing getting more accesible for wargamers now?
« Reply #11 on: January 18, 2018, 05:55:49 AM »
Arlequín, sure SLA printers will get a lot more accessible, however it will largely stay a chemical process. Something I don't want to bother with. However for the people that do, you really need a well ventilated room, which means you either keep the garage door open or need to add some ventilation yourself. You basically need a separate room to clean and cure the stuff, even when using sunlight curing resin.

The only thing I consider sketchup to be a good program for is to visualize furniture for a customer, otherwise it's just not cut out for the job. Not to mention all the extra steps needed to turn all the different things into objects. Personally I would go to fusion 360 for the cad aspect of 3d modeling and blender for the sculpting, at least until you can afford a better sculpting program.

Codsticker, easiest are pe-assembled 3d printers or partially asssembled printers, however most of those that I'm aware of are based on the creality CR-10 making them maybe too expensive based on your budget. Previously I would have advised the Anycubic i3 mega, but I just found out that it has some unresolved issues that make the printer unusable.

One that isn't too expensive for its size is the Tevo Tornado, you might have to tighten the wheels of the x, y and z axis as well as lower the acceleration to fix y-skipping, but otherwise it looks like a really great printer to me.

Offline Rich H

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Re: Is 3d printing getting more accesible for wargamers now?
« Reply #12 on: January 18, 2018, 07:29:15 AM »
The first thing everyone suggests is expensive CAD...  £36 per month for Fusion 360! 
Too rich for something that I'm going to use sporadically.

I'm sure no doubt sketchup has all sorts of problems but it is free!

You can buy off the shelf and get good prints but you will pay for that.  The cheaper the printer the more tinkering.
3D printers are currently pretty complex beasts with lots of adjustments needed to get good quality prints. 
You need to understand the adjustments and changes needed to diagnose and improve your prints. 
The internet will help but when it comes down to it you have to actually tinker!

Also unless you have or acquire CAD skills of some sort you are just printing other people's designs.

Offline arloid

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Re: Is 3d printing getting more accesible for wargamers now?
« Reply #13 on: January 18, 2018, 07:44:59 AM »
Fusion 360 has a free hobbyist license you can activate once the trail period is over.

Offline Rich H

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Re: Is 3d printing getting more accesible for wargamers now?
« Reply #14 on: January 18, 2018, 12:05:35 PM »
Interesting - thanks!

 

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