Looking for French post WW2 doctrine

[commissarmoody]

Hello all.
I am looking for information as to what was standard French  squad and platoon doctrine post WW2 for some French Indo-china action. Did they use gun groups? When looking up the Chatellerault FM24/29 it honistly really did not seem much better then a BAR so i was thinking of useing it as such. Instead of as a LMG. Thoughts?
I notice they still loved the grenade projector's (some thing that pretty much every world war 2 game systme seems to ignore or forget about).

[Ultravanillasmurf]

For flavour (and with opponent's consent) you could give it variable fire, BAR ROF no problems, LMG ROF cumulative chance of failure. Still going to need a loader.

It was based on the BAR and had a non field replaceable barrel. Continuous fire of magazines was possible but not recommended- Wikipedia (for anyone who has not looked it up).

[commissarmoody]

For flavour (and with opponent's consent) you could give it variable fire, BAR ROF no problems, LMG ROF cumulative chance of failure. Still going to need a loader.

It was based on the BAR and had a non field replaceable barrel. Continuous fire of magazines was possible but not recommended- Wikipedia (for anyone who has not looked it up).

That's what I was thinking, I was an automatic weapons guy for a bit in the army and also a M240B gunner in the weapons squad. So I know how much lead those things can lay down, and those were both belt-fed. I also know how fast a M4A1 on auto with piss thru ammo to.
 
So a weapon based on the bar with a 25 round mag with 450 round cyclic rate, wont have the suppression factor that a regular belt fed MG will have. (baring misfeds, jams..etc)
but I will still take it, reliable, accurate, just be careful you don't melt the barrel.
maybe have it so if the guy in stationary and their is a loader it can count as an lmg, thus taking the loader out of firing line as he has to change out spent mags. But if the gunner is firing by himself for what ever reason or moved its back down to a BAR. Has to reload a 20Lb brick.
I might add a higher chance to jam while doing that, or not. all depends on how finicky I want that rule to be. (double fed, goof's changing out the MAGs or barrel got to hot)

[Arlequín]

As far as tactics/doctrine goes, I'm not sure it changed at all initially, apart from the detail, from 1944. In the main it doesn't go that far from the U.S. Manuals of c.1944 (FM 7-10 etc), themselves somewhat derived from Interwar French tactics and doctrine.

The gun group - manouvre group combi seems constant, but the numbers in each varied over time/unit. I have read that there was a switch from three squads of 12 in 1945, to two squads of whatever after '50-ish, so as to reduce the numbers of squad leaders needed and allowing the 'spares' to be bumped up to platoon sergeant and so-on up the scale.

This knock-on effect often promoted guys beyond their experience/ability and it was a case of 'sink or swim' at each leadership level. Certainly it was not until company commander level that you found commissioned officers who had both (some) experience and training for the role. That of course didn't mean that they made good company commanders.

There are some 'tables d'effectif' here: http://1project2far.blogspot.co.uk/p/indochina-war-ressources.html

From what I can see on the last para one, the platoon became one two-gun LMG squad, a light mortar team and a large 'voltigeur' or manouvre squad. I imagine that if these broke down into smaller teams in action, it would very much depend on the presence of guys capable of leading those teams.

[commissarmoody]

That sound interesting, but can also get pretty unwieldy. 
I can see why it didn't last. I can see doing some thing like that to deal with casualties, and lack of experienced NCOs.
Currently rereading "street with out joy" and units seemed to be continually under manned and used up.

I am Imaging One new Sous-Lieutenant arriving to take over his platoon, to be greeted by a newly promoted 1 sergeant, 1  Caporal, and a few grizzled privets in charge of a gaggle of inexperienced Viet replacements. Half of who only know only the most rudimentary French.     

[Arlequín]

Yep, you've got the idea Chris, although I fear the Sous-Lieutenant might as often find himself drafted in as the Coy Commander's 2iC and the newly-promoted sergeant set as platoon leader.  



It was unwieldy, but as was the case with some U.S. Units in WWII, if you haven't got guys up to breaking the squad down like the manual says, you don't break it down like the manual says.

In effect the tactical base of the French in Indochina effectively went from being the squad to the platoon, with the platoon running like a really big squad, complete with its gun group and manoeuvre group. This was okay as they weren't fighting adept German micro-platoons, but the Vietminh, who did everything (in the North at least) as companies and battalions; it's all relative.

In '50 however, the more usual three squad platoon was still running, which will be more suited to working with teams within squads. With the mix of figures you have though, you can set them up for the full range of options, depending on how hard you want to make life for yourself in a game.

Street Without Joy is about as good as it gets and my French isn't up to anything not translated into anglais. The Centurions by Jean Lartéguy was recommended to me as a fictionalised account. I haven't read it, but apparently it was read a lot by troops during the Vietnam War. It also covers Algeria as part of the story too. The Anthony Quinn movie Lost Command was based on it.  

[emosbur]

Try here:

http://daniel.rabbe.free.fr/organisation/section.htm

[commissarmoody]

Ok I think I am getting a good picture here. Now to figure out any, "national" characteristic' s I should apply to the french union forces.
I was looking at trying out Chain of command, 5 core, but other generic rules can work.
Should their be a difference between diffrent groups like between colonial paras vs legion ones? Or say between Moroccan, Algerian, Senegalese and the diffrent Indochina ethnic units?
And what "special" rules should the Viet-minh have? I am thinking for them, good forward deplomets, .camouflage, and ether some thing that allows them to break contact very well or to be realy hard to break once they where committed to an attack.
Reading about mobile groups, forts, and tanks being swarmed by infantry is sobering.

[Poiter50]

Chain of Command DMZ has some National Characteristics for the Viet Cong that may suit your Viet Minh?

[commissarmoody]

Chain of Command DMZ has some National Characteristics for the Viet Cong that may suit your Viet Minh?

Thanks for reminding me. So his site states.
These look just fine for Regional force Vietminh.
  NATIONAL CHARACTERISTICS

A VC Senior Leader can use all of his Command Initiative to order all the units within his Command Distance that haven’t been activated yet in that Phase, to assault the enemy. Any troops so activated can choose to  move up to 4D6 straight towards their chosen enemy (terrain dependant), each squad dicing for its own movement. They halve their Shock for Movement purposes (rounding up). Any Squad or Squads which gets within 4” from enemy initiates Close Combat. Defenders will count any unit that moved 4D6 as 3D6 for defense purposes.

Hard to Detect
The VC tactics of dispersal, rapid concentration and excellent camouflage mean they are hard to target during their build up. If an opponent takes a pre-game game barrage the VC player will add +1 to their dice when attempting to bring forces onto the table.

Our Land
VC Patrol Markers use 14” as both their move distance and the distance from a friendly Patrol Marker within which they must remain.
Other than this additional 2” they operate as normal Patrol Markers.

Main force Vietminh force will not have as many characteristics as the local and regional force. But will have access to more and heavier weapons.

Human Wave
An NVA Senior Leader use all his Command Initiative to order all the units within his Command Distance that haven’t been activated yet in that Phase, to assault the enemy. Any troops so activated can choose to  move up to 4D6 straight towards their chosen enemy (terrain dependant), each squad dicing for its own movement. They halve their Shock for Movement purposes (rounding up). Any Squad or Squads which gets within 4” from enemy initiates Close Combat. Defenders will count any unit that moved 4D6 as 3D6 for defense purposes.

Hard to Detect
The NVA tactics of dispersal, rapid concentration and excellent camouflage mean they are hard to target during their build up. If an  opponent takes a pre-game game barrage the NVA player will add +1 to their dice when attempting to bring forces onto the table.


And local force Vietminh get.

Local Force VC use the Irregular Rules.

(See Irregular Rules reproduced courtesy Happy Wanderers Abyssinian War Rules at the bottom of this article)

The default Local Force VC motivation starts on Motivated (4).
NB: The Irregular Force rules do not apply to crew served weapons which are treated the same as in the main rules.

Local Knowledge
Allows VC player to either deploy one unit an additional 6” further from a Jump-Off point than would normally be the case OR to move a jump-off point up to 18” in any direction, so long as it is further than 12” from any enemy troops or Jump-Off Point.

Our Land
VC Patrol Markers use 14” as both their move distance and the distance from a friendly Patrol Marker within which they must remain.
Other than this additional 2” they operate as normal Patrol Markers.

Di Di Mau
Local Force VC Leaders can spend a Chain of Command pip (not dice) to leave the table with a unit which can include themselves in contact with a JOP provided they are outside of line of sight of any enemy within 12 inches. This can be done before or after movement. They can then re enter at another jump off point (as for a normal unit placement) in a subsequent phase.

Poor Shots
All Local Force VC units including crew served weapons and snipers suffer a +1 penalty to all shooting to hit.

Now to figure out how to flush out the French Union forces. 

[Etranger]

Probably at a higher level than you're looking for but here's a detailed study of French operations in Indochina https://www.rand.org/pubs/research_memoranda/RM5271.html

[commissarmoody]

Probably at a higher level than you're looking for but here's a detailed study of French operations in Indochina https://www.rand.org/pubs/research_memoranda/RM5271.html

Thanks.

[Arlequín]

CoC is my preference for most things, but I also think national characteristics can be laid on a bit too thick sometimes and are hard to quantify when balancing forces out.

The DMZ ones are good, but I wouldn't provide more than two per side myself.

I'm sure there was one that allowed the VC to withdraw unit by unit and claim victory by doing so, if they reduced the enemy force morale to 3 or below and providing their own was higher. That would work well for local force VM quite well.

It also gives the FEFEO player chance to grab victory from the jaws of defeat in like measure, by causing VM force morale to drop equal or below theirs before the withdrawal is complete.

Didi Mau might produce a bit of a whack-a-mole game.

The first rule would work well for VM assault units though.

I might allow the VM an extra patrol marker, rather than 14", but your mileage and all that.

Bear in mind local forces were like 'basic training' entities and through survival and need, were 'promoted' to the regional forces. VM units in the North benefited from training by the Chinese and where more like regulars than guerrillas. The opposite was true in the South.

[commissarmoody]

I might just keep locale force actions for smaller actions with skirmish rules. And I think that more accurately would represent most actions local force's would be used. Snipe at or set up booby traps for big formations while providing info to your regional forces and do proper ambushes on small patrols and isolated posts.
And keep the main force and regional force one for COC and I like the idea of having one more jump off points to represent a better local knowledge, no need to complicate things any more then need be.

[Arlequín]

Sounds reasonable to me. I certainly wouldn't think of piling on all sorts of special rules to CoC, as they aren't really required. Dropping in an extra marker/JOP, or allowing a re-alignment of one or more JOPs at the end of the Patrol Phase, for example, can enhance the game for unusual settings/scenarios, while being relatively un-intrusive to the flow of the game.