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Author Topic: Looking for French post WW2 doctrine  (Read 2073 times)

Offline commissarmoody

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Re: Looking for French post WW2 doctrine
« Reply #15 on: January 20, 2018, 09:03:46 PM »
Agreed, national characteristics are cool, but should not be the main focus. Of course I need to figure out what ones work best for French regulars, legion, North African units etc.. lol
"Peace" is that brief, glorious moment in history when everybody stands around reloading.

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Offline Arlequín

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Re: Looking for French post WW2 doctrine
« Reply #16 on: January 20, 2018, 10:00:46 PM »
Well would you apply different characteristics to a U.S. Army unit raised in Maine, compared to one raised in Oregon or Texas?

Wherever troops were raised in 'France', be it Algeria, Morocco, or Senegal, the same training programme and doctrine existed for all. Granted the Legion had esprit de corps in spades.

You might make allowances for the ratio of Vietnamese conscripts in the mix maybe, but overall skin colour and uniform differences are as deep as differences go overall otherwise. Obviously those don't make one man fight better than another.

Now if you were to apply a characteristic to differentiate between a unit with a fair amount of experience, compared to one straight off the boat, then I think you might be on to something!

Offline commissarmoody

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Re: Looking for French post WW2 doctrine
« Reply #17 on: January 20, 2018, 10:50:59 PM »
I see your point, i was not trying to imply a speration of ethnio groups and combat abilty. Espeicaly since as you pointed out that the Profesinal units from France and units tranined in the Africa colonies where trained to the same standard, with diffrence more along of what branch of service they where. (Infantry, Army, Para..etc)

I think the Vietnamese conscripts might add some flavor, but I think that is more of rating some units as green vs regular to represent the increase of new troops into the unit. Might even rate some of the late war Para units as veterans and regulars instead of elite because of their over use and high turn over rate of casualties.
Just like Legion will be regulars and vets, but not Elite. 
I think I need to reformat my question.
The US for COC WW2 get "scout" and "marching fire".
The Germans use Maschinengewehr and Handgranaten!

The French for COC get the fallowing rules.
TROMBLON VB
LA BATAILLE CONDUIT
And I just do not see the french troops trying to recrate verdun in indochina dispit the DBH feasco, They just seem more fluid is all. But hampered by a shoe string budget, constantly changing governments at home, ect, etc.

But I am also not sure If i should use Marching Fire! and Scouts.



Offline Arlequín

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Re: Looking for French post WW2 doctrine
« Reply #18 on: January 21, 2018, 12:55:14 PM »
Yeah I'm much more onboard with using 'characteristics' to model what is actually combat effectiveness differences. Few gamers opt to play a unit 'past its best' for some reason though.

The Scout rule seems reasonable for the French, but I'm not even sure Marching Fire is even valid for the U.S. Army beyond Patton's 3rd Army and one of his successor generals in Korea. Although I do recall a 'Big Picture' platoon attack video from c. 1962 that featured one.

Rich tends to give characteristics as 'options' that give players some benefit for 'historical play' in certain instances, which of course gives players the choice of doing without them and going their own way too.

I guess identifying the common French traits in Indochina will be the name of the game. I'm sure at least one will probably jump out from Street Without Joy, although its unlikely to be relevant for the entirety of the war.

Offline commissarmoody

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Re: Looking for French post WW2 doctrine
« Reply #19 on: January 22, 2018, 01:42:25 AM »
Agreed, about the marching fire. No infantry man with half a brain will walk and fire from the hip. That was the half baked dream of a cavalry men. This is a decent modern video about US squad tactics from world war 2.
https://youtu.be/MPBztuaDNhM

One thing I have noticed about the French forces at least from my reading is that they fight tell almost being completely destroyed. I guess this is because they have no place to retreat to and because it really depends on the VM's mood as to weather they will take you prisoner or not that day. Of course the same could be said about the Vietminh when they are cornered and have no way to escape.

Maybe count French units as "Diehards" if in a defensive position? (Bunker, trench, fort). might be a good counter to  the VMs human waves. Of course that might be better for scenarios only and not every game.

I am listening to "Hell in a very small" place now on audio book and they are saying that Many of the Parachute and French units by that stage of the war where almost 40 if not 50 percent Viet's. And that those units seemed to preform "better" then none mixed fully European, African, or Viet units. I think this is down to the Africans and Europeans not being as adopt of reading the locales and terrain. Europeans where also more prone to succumb to the harsh topical climents and strange food then the locals.  And the full Viet units, being more prone to infiltration and maybe suffered some bias from other units in the theater.    

Since the french seemed to like the idea of puting a rifle gernade projecter and at least one scoped rifle in their rifle squads, maybe some thing to do with that?

Also, do you think I should cross forums and ask folks in the colony forum? Seems Like there are lots of French speakers posting on the Tonkin 1883-85 thread.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2018, 08:10:35 AM by commissarmoody »

Offline c0cky30

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Re: Looking for French post WW2 doctrine
« Reply #20 on: January 22, 2018, 09:04:48 AM »
Paras - Aggressive/stubborn.  MASCHINENGEWEHR.

Offline commissarmoody

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Re: Looking for French post WW2 doctrine
« Reply #21 on: January 22, 2018, 10:23:58 AM »
Paras - Aggressive/stubborn.  MASCHINENGEWEHR.
Not bad idea the Para battalions. Why would you think Maschingengewehr vs the English option of Concentrated fire?
this was the standerd Light MG of the french in the 50s https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FM_24/29_light_machine_gun
« Last Edit: January 22, 2018, 10:26:30 AM by commissarmoody »

Offline Arlequín

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Re: Looking for French post WW2 doctrine
« Reply #22 on: January 22, 2018, 11:14:09 AM »
Aggressive/Stubborn is preferable to 'Diehard' imo - which really throws a game off-kilter. The Viet Minh took some 40k-ish prisoners over the years (2k-ish of whom survived to be released). 8k prisoners were taken at BDP alone (around 50% of the total defenders iirc), so last bullet and last man stands are seemingly a myth.

Maschinengewehr or more appropriately 'Mitrailleuse' in this case, works for me though, good call! Concentrated Fire could work too. Perhaps the squad leader could choose his preference each time he expends his CI and actually does direct the fire of the LMG?  

On top of that, for French veterans/elites, dropping in an inferior junior leader (1 CI) to take some of the weight off the squad leader, will also work. It represents either good deputy squad leaders, those natural leaders others coalesce around, or others who step-up to back the squad leader's play and make life easier.

The player can put him with the gun group or manouvre group, wherever the squad leader isn't in other words, which will enhance the 'fire and movement' doctrine of the squad. A far better buff for the unit than the more unimaginative but common 'make them six dice'.

Rifle grenades and snipers (aka 'squad marksmen' if we're honest) are covered already, no special rules needed imo. Check the recent FAQ for rifle grenade changes.

To be honest there is unlikely to be much in the way of new CoC special rules that can be created, given that;

a) Post-WWII was mostly derivative of the lessons of WWII for many years after.

b) A shed load of special rules etc have already been created across CoC as a whole.

I won't say don't try to come up with new ideas/rules, but if one already does what you need, use it as it is! Different rules to do the same thing create 'rule fatigue' in players that do several sub-periods and it becomes hard to remember what rule to use in which incarnation of the game.

I don't recommend going to the Colonial Board, as cross-posting isn't allowed, plus it would dilute the conversation across two boards on top of that. Going to the TFL Forum with it is perhaps a better option, particularly with reference to the possible impact of rules, if not Indochina itself.

  
« Last Edit: January 22, 2018, 11:16:57 AM by Arlequín »

Offline commissarmoody

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Re: Looking for French post WW2 doctrine
« Reply #23 on: January 22, 2018, 12:06:19 PM »
Thanks. I do like the idea of a junior leader. And Mitrailleuse, only reasion I was question maybe useing consntrated fire was becase of the realitvely low valume of fire the FM24/29 could put out compared to the belt fed german Mgs. I was a automatic riflemen in the army and a 240B machingunner. They can put out a hell of alot more lead and for a longer time then my M4 on auto. Also with out makeing the barrel glow.  lol
So maybe Concentrated fire in the squads and Mitrailleuse in the LMG/MMG teams.
 I also like Paras being Aggressive or stubborn. Now if only I can find those damn rules in the book. Thing needs an Index.  lol

And your are correct about making to many more rules. I was not trying to reinvent the wheel just pick peoples minds for ideas.
So it would seem I need to pick up the new FAQ.

Also your are correct about the amount of prisoners taken. I guess i was thinking more about the battles along the Red River delta and the "De Lattre Line". Or listening to the accounts of the mobel groups being taken apart. In these cases of course the men did fight until they were over run or pushed out of the forts. That being said, even those actions usually produced a few survivors and prisoners.
And in the case of DBP, the French had fought to the last of their ability to resist. Any more fighting would have just been a form of suicide.
I think there are examples of the full range of human experience in this conflict. Part of what makes it interesting.
One thing i can say is that I have learned to respect the VM command and common solder, they out marched and out fought the French union forces on many occasions. Only to be under estimated time and time again by the French Leadership, who where very experienced solders in there own right.

Thank you all for your help so far.
Now to figure out the support lists.  :D
« Last Edit: January 22, 2018, 12:08:23 PM by commissarmoody »

Offline c0cky30

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Re: Looking for French post WW2 doctrine
« Reply #24 on: January 22, 2018, 12:22:29 PM »
Aggressive and stubborn rules are in the close combat section of the rules.

This site is handy for support and TOEs
http://indochine54.free.fr/vm/chuluc.html

Offline commissarmoody

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Re: Looking for French post WW2 doctrine
« Reply #25 on: January 22, 2018, 12:46:08 PM »
Aggressive and stubborn rules are in the close combat section of the rules.

This site is handy for support and TOEs
http://indochine54.free.fr/vm/chuluc.html

Thanks, and I got that site favorited now.  lol

Offline Arlequín

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Re: Looking for French post WW2 doctrine
« Reply #26 on: January 22, 2018, 04:22:28 PM »
Concentrated Fire in terms of the rule itself is little more than the squad leader telling the guys to focus on one element, rather than a broader front, nothing particularly British about that. Even the Handgranaten rule is not particularly German, who doesn't toss a few grenades in before the assault? That rule just allows gambling on getting more or less grenades on-target when assaulting. Do you suppose that squad leaders didn't order their men to give it "all they had" at times too (Five Rounds Rapid)?

I'm sort of thinking a lot of this through as I type it, but having looked sideways at the 'book' today, I don't see any 'national characteristic' that isn't just a case of the squad leader using his head, regardless of his nationality and in the process making his unit more combat effective in the process. People like their supposed 'national' differences, but other than the rule titles themselves and their by-line, I'm not seeing any really.

It might seem too much, but allowing any (regular? elite?) squad leader to utilise any of the book 'National Characteristics' "ain't no thang" really, it's not like he can use them all at once, nor are they battle winners in their own right; they also use CI which can't then be used to remove Shock from the unit - and there's the rub, how does he employ his leadership skills in that phase to best effect?
« Last Edit: January 22, 2018, 04:24:29 PM by Arlequín »

Offline commissarmoody

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Re: Looking for French post WW2 doctrine
« Reply #27 on: January 22, 2018, 10:17:31 PM »
True, honinstly just about every post WW2 western army uses the same tactics perfected in that conflict. With only very slightly different service characteristics. Useally down to the individual then say the army as a whole.
Most troops would love to lead an assault with gernades, any squad or team leader can order troops to focus fire on one group of enemies, or just power every thing you have at a target.
And most armies know in theory how to delegate to their NCOs.
Guess trying to find some thing that is uniquely French at this time will be found off the battlefield, not on.

 

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