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Author Topic: Weapons and Skills: Mods and Ideas  (Read 4971 times)

Offline OldGuy59

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Re: Weapons and Skills: Mods and Ideas
« Reply #15 on: February 17, 2018, 08:55:06 AM »
I would keep it simple and play a list or three before tweaking anything too much.  IMHO, half the beauty of this game is its simplicity.

With that said: ... I have several modifications I have been using.  They are in my gallery in two sections for Extras and Custom Races  ;)     Scott's Gallery

Regarding slug ammo for shot guns, I figured that is what is loaded in the shotguns normally; buckshot costs extra-gives spread and is optional...  Now, as to why shotguns have a shorter range than a pistol I will never understand.  (maybe I am too much of a war gamer)    :`

Hmmm...  Looking through the Master Weapons Table, I now notice the Buck Shot Ammo entry.  I guess this backs up your statement that the Shot-guns are using slugs.  I had to look up .22 cal ammo for range and lethality.  I expected it to be a longer range than slugs, but it isn't.  .22 Long Rifle rounds are said to be lethal up to 400-ish yards.  Which is about the lethality range of Shot-gun slugs.  And, getting hit by the equivalent of a .50 cal slug will hurt much more than a tiny .22 cal.

So, the range could be the same for Shot-guns with slugs and .22 cal pistols.

I still want AP ammo, though!

I like your galleries, and your special rules.  I will pass the rules on to my group.
We're all crazy.  It's only a matter of degree.

Offline OldGuy59

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Re: Weapons and Skills: Mods and Ideas
« Reply #16 on: March 09, 2018, 07:31:13 PM »
I finally had a chance to read through my friend's copy of the rule book (2nd Ed), and there is a thing about not being able to equip more than one 2-Handed weapon.  So, there is the answer for my "Burly" tangent.  No shooting two 2-Handed weapons, at least until 3rd Ed.

Pg 19 - 'A model may fire any two non 2-Hand Ranged weapons in the same Shoot Action. A -1 penalty to Dexterity is incurred on all shots, but both weapons can be fired at their normal rate and damage. The weapons need not both be of the same type."

Pg 112 - '2-Hand - ... A model may never equip more than one 2-Hand weapon to its profile."

So, there is the advantage of 'Burly', you can carry the golfbag of weapons, but you have to choose which is in use.  And, if you want to use a 'Ready' weapon, you'd have to take 'Lightning Fast', too.  And perhaps some house rules about only using a Bolt-Action Rifle for one Shoot Action a turn (or equip an semi-automatice rifle or carbine)?

Offline Dezmond

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Re: Weapons and Skills: Mods and Ideas
« Reply #17 on: March 11, 2018, 09:51:05 AM »
The 'shoot em up' skill removes the penalty for shooting two guns at once, and the 'hail of bullets' skill (requires 'shoot em up' lets you shoot one two handed and one one handed weapon at once.

So I would tend to say dual wielding Tommy guns would 'count as' shooting a Tommy gun and .45 pistol, so 4 attacks at 10"/1D+2 damage.


Offline OldGuy59

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Re: Weapons and Skills: Mods and Ideas
« Reply #18 on: March 20, 2018, 03:19:36 AM »
Next silly thing to come up on weapons.

Lewis Guns and Browning Automatic Rifles (M1918 BAR) (and any equivalents).
Both of these were produced in 30.06 calibres, so similar to .303, and made to be carried by infantry squads.  Within SA terms, I'd consider these to be shorter ranged (not on a tripod), but not needing a Loader.  And as lighter weapons, perhaps nearer in cost to an Elephant Gun.

Range: 20", Rate: 3D, Damage: 1D+2, Special: Ready, Strafe, 2-Hand [Edit. Should have been this]

BTW: Lots of different types of ammo available through the 1930's, including Armour Piercing, Incediary, Tracer, and "reduced-charge" for target practice and use in built-up areas.

Thoughts?
« Last Edit: March 20, 2018, 03:13:52 PM by OldGuy59 »

Offline Dezmond

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Re: Weapons and Skills: Mods and Ideas
« Reply #19 on: March 20, 2018, 10:51:17 AM »
I'd be happy to treat Lewis Guns and B.A.Rs as vanilla .30 cal machine guns.

Any agent sufficiently strong and skilled to wield a B.A.R. effectively as a shoulder weapon could pick up the Action Hero skill to do so.

But don't get me wrong. I've spent a lot of time watching YouTube videos of people shooting Tommy Guns.

Here, for instance is Gun Jesus of Forgotten Weapons and his mate doing a shooting competition that involves running around shooting at targets comparing a B.A.R. with an FG-42 paratrooper rifle from the Second World War:-

https://youtu.be/vw3eKWvDGqQ

The B.A.R. is clearly a heavy gun. By the end of the stages the guy is having trouble raising it to his shoulder. This is something I could see as becoming an issue when hunting cthulhoid monstrositites in the catacombs under Paris.

So I think treating it as a vanilla machine gun and respresenting improved mobility with skill is Close Enough for Threshold work.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2018, 10:53:54 AM by Dezmond »

Offline OldGuy59

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Re: Weapons and Skills: Mods and Ideas
« Reply #20 on: March 20, 2018, 03:19:24 PM »
Sorry about the typo. The stats should have been '2-Hand'.

Yes, both weapons were over 15 pounds, and meant to be fired in a supported (bi-pod or emplacement), or from-the-hip, manner. They even came with slings (built-in Bi-pod for the BAR), to assist with this. The BAR wouldn't quite be as bad as firing an Elephant Gun, but it wasn't a light rifle, and never intended for prolonged shoulder-fired engagements.

An interesting video of the Full-Auto BAR in action: Youtube.com - Browning BAR Full Auto
« Last Edit: March 20, 2018, 08:48:23 PM by OldGuy59 »

Offline Grumbling Grognard

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Re: Weapons and Skills: Mods and Ideas
« Reply #21 on: March 23, 2018, 11:53:34 PM »
I am treating both the Lewis and the BAR as basically the same and I have the stats in my gallery.  Basically a Thompson unless you have 2 man crew then a somewhat weaker MG.


Scott's Custom Items


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« Last Edit: March 24, 2018, 04:46:48 AM by Grumbling Grognard »
Scott Clinton
(aka The Grumbling Grognard)

Offline OldGuy59

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Re: Weapons and Skills: Mods and Ideas
« Reply #22 on: April 02, 2018, 05:26:59 PM »
I am treating both the Lewis and the BAR as basically the same and I have the stats in my gallery.  Basically a Thompson unless you have 2 man crew then a somewhat weaker MG.


Scott's Custom Items


My Gallery
I think you're missing something, or I am.

A Bolt-Action Rifle uses rifle ammunition, a Tommy Gun uses pistol ammunition.  The .30 Machine Gun uses rifle ammunition, too.  The rate of fire (how many rounds out of the the muzzle) determines the Rate (I hope).

The Lewis Gun and the BAR were designed as "portable" section support weapons, for troops on the move.  Both use the same ammunition as the Bolt-Action Rifle and the .30 Machine Gun.  Although heavy (certainly 2-Hand), a 'Loader' is not required for either a Lewis Gun, nor a BAR, by design.  Depending on the length of a scenario, neither the Lewis Gun, nor the BAR, should run out of ammunition.  A house rule could be put in place for other team members carrying extra magazines to share weight, but they wouldn't be considered 'Loaders'.

Now that I look at the Master Weapon Table, though, I see that the Bolt-Action Rifle gets an AP1, but the .30 Machine Gun does not.  I can recall witnessing a fire power demo with an FN C1 rifle (semi-automatic, 7.62mm [.308 cal]) knocking down a cinderblock wall with repeated shots.  A Lewis Gun, a BAR, and a .30 Machine Gun could do the same (and there are Youtube videos of this).

All the above to say that using a Lewis Gun, or a BAR, as a Tommy Gun is not even close to accurate, with or without a loader.  And any rifle ammunition weapon should have the same AP rating (unless using armour piercing ammunition, which isn't included in the rules).

How expensive should a Lewis Gun or BAR be?  More expensive than a Tommy Gun, but cheaper than a .30 Machine Gun?  If we incorporate them at all, I don't see anyone taking a .30 Machine Gun.

Offline Grumbling Grognard

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Re: Weapons and Skills: Mods and Ideas
« Reply #23 on: April 03, 2018, 08:49:55 AM »
IMHO, you are way over-thinking it. 

There is (IMHO) no place for 'realism' in this game.  I am an old grognard WW2 gamer, so we will not even go into the differences between weapons and ammo...  It is simply not covered in this game (again, IMHO).

I simply read the weapons as stereotypes.  The "Clever" for example is not "just a clever" but could also be a Bowie knife, or a combat knife (esp. in the hands of a trained person).

I only added the BAR because I have several figures with it and my main concerns were not to break the game, over power the BAR or make it completely redundant.  I think it passes muster on all 3 of those.

All IMHO of course,
Scott

Offline OldGuy59

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Re: Weapons and Skills: Mods and Ideas
« Reply #24 on: April 03, 2018, 08:59:01 PM »
IMHO, you are way over-thinking it. 

...

Very likely.  The game 'Tanks' threw out realism for playability. 

So to, does 'Wings of Glory', my current favorite tabletop minis game.  I like the simplicity, but the retention of the feel of dogfighting.  The simulationists don't like the over-simplification, and there are many compromises.

I am using this Forum for a sounding board, and I haven't even approached my play partners with this 'portable MG' idea.  I wanted to see if there was something already play-tested, before I introduced a game-busting twist.  The Lewis Gun/BAR thing might be one of those things.

But, being CDO (OCD in the correct alphabetical order), I need consistency in my rules.

Offline Cubs

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Re: Weapons and Skills: Mods and Ideas
« Reply #25 on: April 03, 2018, 09:41:33 PM »
Incidentally, Lewis gun teams could be as many as four men (or more), no1 being the firer (who didn't actually carry the gun into action, he carried the tripod), no2 being the loader (and who carried the gun into the firing position and then helped no1 get the gun into action), and no3 and no4 being the ammo men who carried the heavy ammo drums (the no4 would bring the ammo to the gun group in a crate from the rear, the no3 would pass each drum to the no2, who would load it on the gun). In firing teams of several guns, you could even have no5 and no6, who were basically spare runners for any gun team that needed them. In charge of all was the firing officer who directed fire.

Each man had to be prepared to step up into the role of the man in front of him to replace casualties and no doubt in practice a full gun team was a rare luxury.

The weapon itself, much like a Bren or any other magazine fed support weapon, lends itself to be fired by a single man, but actually keeping it in action beyond a single drum of ammo requires a lot more than that! A single soldier cannot carry the heavy gun and the relatively large amount of ammo required to keep it operational.

Of course in a pulp setting, you can obviously work around stuff like that because you're dealing with a comic book world where such realities as ammunition, range and fatigue are abstracted to a large degree for the sake of the narrative.
'Sir John ejaculated explosively, sitting up in his chair.' ... 'The Black Gang'.

Paul Cubbin Miniature Painter

Offline OldGuy59

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Re: Weapons and Skills: Mods and Ideas
« Reply #26 on: April 04, 2018, 03:59:48 PM »
Doctrine/policy of use is not necessarily how something is used in the field.  Troops will almost always find different ways of using equipment.  "No combat-ready unit has ever passed inspection."

Quote
Citation
For most conspicuous bravery and extraordinary devotion to duty when in charge of a Lewis gun section in the front line trenches, in which a strong enemy raid was attempted. During an intense bombardment Corporal Kaeble remained at the parapet with his Lewis gun shouldered ready for action, the field of fire being very short. As soon as the barrage lifted from the front line, about fifty of the enemy advanced towards his post. By this time the whole of his section except one had become casualties. Corporal Kaeble jumped over the parapet, and holding his Lewis gun at the hip, emptied one magazine after another into the advancing enemy, and although wounded several times by fragments of shells and bombs, he continued to fire and entirely blocked the enemy by his determined stand. Finally, firing all the time, he fell backwards into the trench mortally wounded. While lying on his back in the trench he fired his last cartridges over the parapet at the retreating Germans, and before losing consciousness shouted to the wounded about him: "Keep it up, boys; do not let them get through! We must stop them !" The complete repulse of the enemy attack at this point was due to the remarkable personal bravery and self-sacrifice of this gallant non-commissioned officer, who died of his wounds shortly afterwards.

— London Gazette, Supplement No. 30903, dated 16 September 1918[5]
Transported to hospital, Corporal Joseph Kaeble died of his wounds the next night, 9 June.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Kaeble

Offline Dezmond

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Re: Weapons and Skills: Mods and Ideas
« Reply #27 on: April 04, 2018, 04:20:15 PM »
Corporal Kaeble clearly had the Action Hero skill permitting him disregard the Loader trait for his machine gun. :-)

Offline Cubs

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Re: Weapons and Skills: Mods and Ideas
« Reply #28 on: April 06, 2018, 07:38:44 AM »
Plus, he's defending a trench, so didn't have to carry the ammunition drums anywhere!

There's plenty of heroic actions where single soldiers have operated an artillery piece after the rest of the crew have been taken out, but that doesn't make them an individual weapon!

Like I said, it's Pulp, it's fun stuff, so the realities can be stretched for the sake of the narrative. How far they can stretch is up to whoever plays the game.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2018, 09:49:24 AM by Cubs »

 

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